Remove Warframe Ability Damage Reduction On Enemies?

[Birdframe_Prime]

22 hours ago, Kalthea said:

You don't need to deal damage in order to proc an effect.

They still deal an instance of Damage in order to proc that effect. The damage type doesn't need to be the same, hence why Garuda can force Bleeds on things with no Slash, but for effects like that you need a Damage instance. Reckoning could deal Magnetic, for all it matters, but in order to have an effect like Radiation as a Status, it has to be from Damage.

It's not opinion, it's how DE have explained their reasons for certain things existing in the game. Status effects proc from Damage instances.

22 hours ago, Kalthea said:

But I am talking entirely about high-end stuff.

And DE are talking about levels of play. Damage is supposed to cap out because at the moment, with the current system of how we deal and receive damage, and how it is mitigated by resistances, means that we cannot, and do not, scale our abilities into end game.

That was my point about Intended Use. The damage is not the part that scales to Endgame, and DE did that deliberately.

Again, this isn't opinion, there have been literal sit-down discussions between certain Content Creators and the Devs in the past, on DevStreams or at Tennocon or even just on Twitter, where they have explained this several times.

As they put it, Warframes only go up to level 30, it's mechanical functions like Status and combinations of frames that allow us to progress higher, and raw damage is genuinely supposed to get gimped by the system after that.

Now if we're talking about changing how that works, then you really would have a discussion on your hands. However, True Damage (non-reduced damage by resistances) has got a very tight leash on it, there are only two or three frames that even have an ability to deal it by proxy, let alone directly. And that's fully intentional too.

[Kalthea]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

They still deal an instance of Damage in order to proc that effect. The damage type doesn't need to be the same, hence why Garuda can force Bleeds on things with no Slash, but for effects like that you need a Damage instance. Reckoning could deal Magnetic, for all it matters, but in order to have an effect like Radiation as a Status, it has to be from Damage.

It's not opinion, it's how DE have explained their reasons for certain things existing in the game. Status effects proc from Damage instances.

And DE are talking about levels of play. Damage is supposed to cap out because at the moment, with the current system of how we deal and receive damage, and how it is mitigated by resistances, means that we cannot, and do not, scale our abilities into end game.

That was my point about Intended Use. The damage is not the part that scales to Endgame, and DE did that deliberately.

Again, this isn't opinion, there have been literal sit-down discussions between certain Content Creators and the Devs in the past, on DevStreams or at Tennocon or even just on Twitter, where they have explained this several times.

As they put it, Warframes only go up to level 30, it's mechanical functions like Status and combinations of frames that allow us to progress higher, and raw damage is genuinely supposed to get gimped by the system after that.

Now if we're talking about changing how that works, then you really would have a discussion on your hands. However, True Damage (non-reduced damage by resistances) has got a very tight leash on it, there are only two or three frames that even have an ability to deal it by proxy, let alone directly. And that's fully intentional too.

Yes, you need an instance of damage to apply a proc. But if you read my example, you don't have to actually do any amount of damage for that effect to proc, it just has to be a proc on top of a damaging effect. A perfect example is taking Ember into the simulacrum against level 150 Corrupted Eximus Heavy Gunners, specifically the Arson ones. If you cast her 4, you'll notice that the damage number that pops up is 0, yet it still applies a burning effect. Here's a picture: 

As for your second point, I'm aware levels of play need to be worried about. But even if you were to do true damage, you would still cap out, because your enemies health is scaling along with their level. Your frame wouldn't just become ungodly powerful forever and ever. You might get an extra 50+ levels of extra levels on them at the highest of the high end enemy levels.

Let me be perfectly clear. I am not asking for the damage to scale to endgame. That is literally impossible with the way this game is set up. I'm just wondering why DR applies to abilities if there's a limit no matter what you do. Not to mention this is a horde based shooter, so I don't really see the issue with dealing a bit more damage, other than some more low-level complaints about high-level players jumping in to farm something and killing all the enemies.

[MickThejaguar]

3 hours ago, Kalthea said:

Equinox is considered one of the best nuke frames in the game because of her re-cast 4 after building up damage from killing enemies, not from her slash procs. And while slash procs may "ignore armor", they in fact don't. The bleed tick does. It damages health directly. The slash proc itself is actually reduced by armor. In fact, Equinox's first cast of her 4 past level 60 is damn near useless, because if it damages an enemy within her range, they cannot get slash proc'd again. As for Oberon, I'm well aware that he's a support frame. And it may not be his job, but it still doesn't make sense to apply the DR when you have damage on the ability. Trinity is the perfect example of this, since the only way her abilities can deal damage is via Link, and that requires enemies to shoot her. You can make a full on support frame without the damage, so why bother putting damage on a frame that's supposed to be support?

You're still ignoring the part of your OP where you acknowledged that such a change would unnecessarily cause more problems. Simply making all warframe abilities ignore armor would have huge ramifications and would be a nightmare to balance, as every single frame in the game would need a massive amount of rebalancing, just because you don't like that your Oberon (who isn't supposed to do damage) doesn't do as much damage against armor. The game offers way too many tools to strip armor for anyone to seriously complain about this type of thing. 

[Kalthea]

1 minute ago, MickThejaguar said:

You're still ignoring the part of your OP where you acknowledged that such a change would unnecessarily cause more problems. Simply making all warframe abilities ignore armor would have huge ramifications and would be a nightmare to balance, as every single frame in the game would need a massive amount of rebalancing, just because you don't like that your Oberon (who isn't supposed to do damage) doesn't do as much damage against armor. The game offers way too many tools to strip armor for anyone to seriously complain about this type of thing. 

And yet people keep ignoring the fact that I'm just saying if an ability does X amount of damage, it's a bit silly for it to not do that damage. Honestly, it may be easier to balance out the abilities by doing this. You can see where frames are doing far too much damage, and shave it properly for them to be in a spot where they work in mid-game, but fall off in late-game. And it's not so much that I don't like that my Oberon isn't doing damage, as I've stated multiple times. It's that if it IS doing damage, but it's MEANT to be just a support ability, WHY have it do damage? 

[MickThejaguar]

7 minutes ago, Kalthea said:

It's that if it IS doing damage, but it's MEANT to be just a support ability, WHY have it do damage? 

Because it's a stupid question. The ability is still an attack, it's power just isn't in it's raw damage but in the effect. The damage is there to kill low level mobs, while it's scaling in the armor stripping.

[Kalthea]

1 minute ago, MickThejaguar said:

Because it's a stupid question. The ability is still an attack, it's power just isn't in it's raw damage but in the effect. The damage is there to kill low level mobs, while it's scaling in the armor stripping.

But according to your earlier statement, Oberon isn't meant to do damage. So now it's there to kill low level mobs? Which is it? This is why forums are a terrible place for discussion. They're mostly just used as a "drop your statement here and expect everyone listen". This discussion is very long, and honestly I doubt anyone who comes to the second page is going to bother reading through the first page. They just want to throw in their statement and expect everyone else to listen. Not an attack on you, just a general statement of why forums are bad for this type of discussion.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Kalthea said:

Yes, you need an instance of damage to apply a proc. But if you read my example, you don't have to actually do any amount of damage for that effect to proc, it just has to be a proc on top of a damaging effect.

So you're ignoring my point where I specifically said that the 'intended use' also includes low level killing of enemies?

No matter how you twist the points about; the intention behind the ability is not just for the status, not just for the damage. You get one function for the lower levels, and one function for the higher, the fact that the damage caps out does not negate the usefulness of the ability at higher level thanks to the status, and the fact that the damage kills the enemy outright at lower level doesn't mean that the status shouldn't be there. Abilities can be more than one function specifically so that they can be used at all levels of play.

1 hour ago, Kalthea said:

As for your second point, I'm aware levels of play need to be worried about. But even if you were to do true damage, you would still cap out, because your enemies health is scaling along with their level. Your frame wouldn't just become ungodly powerful forever and ever. You might get an extra 50+ levels of extra levels on them at the highest of the high end enemy levels.

Actually, yeah, that's kind of the exact point of the matter.

Do you know how fast you can kill a level 350 Heavy Gunner or Bombard with Garuda, because her ability triggers off Bleed (True Damage) during the marked portion? Literally seconds. Just with her 1's stored damage.

If you play with a team with enough CC to stay alive to that level of play, Garuda will not stop allowing all of her allies to kill everything until the multi-hundred levels.

Much the same way, I'm a former long-runner, my clan regularly topped the leader boards in the Void Key era, and the simple trick was to make sure enemies don't have armour. Why? Because back then you had lovely abilities that were broken as hell; Mag dealt percent-based damage in a large radius as long as there were Shield bearing enemies for it to trigger from. As long as enemies did not have armour, and you could stay alive through the damage a single enemy bullet could deal (we got to points where the enemy could one-shot right through your frame's Bleed Out health meaning a sniper could insta-kill you to the Revive screen) you were literally infinite.

Enemy health scales so much slower when you do not factor in resistance.

Point of fact; Nova's Anti-Matter Drop, on its own, can deal 50,000 damage in a radius. Without armour or resistances to that damage, do you know what level of enemy that one-shots if it had true damage? Everything up to level 90 (since Ancient Healers scale base health faster than any Grineer unit, without Ancients it's level 110). With Molecular Prime? Everything up to level 130 (or 150 if you don't count Ancients). In a radius, not point-damage, in a 15m Radius.

How many AMD's can Nova drop? With good positioning, efficiency and a team for CC it's 1 every 3-4 seconds. At a low-ball of 8 seconds per shot, Nova would still be dealing up to 750,000 damage per minute, double that if they had a good team for 1.5 million damage per minute.

We do not need abilities dealing true damage. We are so much more powerful than you are giving any of the frames and abilities credit for.

And that's because none of this even factors in what other frames can do. Octavia's Mallet will scale infinitely. Mag's Magnetise has been proven to kill level 1700 enemies. With the right combo, I've witnessed players one-shot a Sortie Vay Heck with a Fishing Spear and a Mining Laser.

You say you might get an extra 50+ levels with true damage on abilities? I say that players have already gotten to the point with our regular damage where they actually break the enemy scaling.

Forget 50+ this would allow players to take a solo run an extra 500. I could do it, you could do it. A bored Ivara player would be able to run Interceptions for a whole day. A player like LifeofRio would probably only come out of Survivals because the game actually is proven to break coding when you get to around level 5000-6000.

...

Ugh... look, I do get your overall point; why does our ability damage have to cap out on some abilities? Why does casting some of them seem to do nothing past a certain point? Why does it not feel as powerful as it looks?

That's a fine opinion.

But it's an opinion from a place of not knowing how our damage actually can and does scale. But more importantly it's not taking into account how mechanical effects of abilities can scale independent of their damage.

Abilities that do small amounts of damage are not suddenly null-and-void once the damage stops affecting the enemies. There is a use for almost every single one of them, and some of those uses are downright broken.

[Kalthea]

10 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

So you're ignoring my point where I specifically said that the 'intended use' also includes low level killing of enemies?

No matter how you twist the points about; the intention behind the ability is not just for the status, not just for the damage. You get one function for the lower levels, and one function for the higher, the fact that the damage caps out does not negate the usefulness of the ability at higher level thanks to the status, and the fact that the damage kills the enemy outright at lower level doesn't mean that the status shouldn't be there. Abilities can be more than one function specifically so that they can be used at all levels of play.

You're actually agreeing with me here. I'm stating that I don't see any reason for DR to apply to the abilities, because even in their current state, they still kill low-level enemies and provide CC to higher level ones. My point of the matter is that applying true damage to that won't change anything. At all. The most it will change is the low-end of enemy killing.

Actually, yeah, that's kind of the exact point of the matter.

 Do you know how fast you can kill a level 350 Heavy Gunner or Bombard with Garuda, because her ability triggers off Bleed (True Damage) during the marked portion? Literally seconds. Just with her 1's stored damage.

Garuda is the most recent frame. Her 1 will scale off of enemy health. Using her as an example isn't necessarily fair, since she has what I consider to be the best scaling in the game because of this. You cast her 4 on an enemy, get 100% bleed chance, cast your 1, then charge it and you've just nuked an entire area. You only need 1 cast.

If you play with a team with enough CC to stay alive to that level of play, Garuda will not stop allowing all of her allies to kill everything until the multi-hundred levels.

Much the same way, I'm a former long-runner, my clan regularly topped the leader boards in the Void Key era, and the simple trick was to make sure enemies don't have armour. Why? Because back then you had lovely abilities that were broken as hell; Mag dealt percent-based damage in a large radius as long as there were Shield bearing enemies for it to trigger from. As long as enemies did not have armour, and you could stay alive through the damage a single enemy bullet could deal (we got to points where the enemy could one-shot right through your frame's Bleed Out health meaning a sniper could insta-kill you to the Revive screen) you were literally infinite.

Enemy health scales so much slower when you do not factor in resistance.

Point of fact; Nova's Anti-Matter Drop, on its own, can deal 50,000 damage in a radius. Without armour or resistances to that damage, do you know what level of enemy that one-shots if it had true damage? Everything up to level 90 (since Ancient Healers scale base health faster than any Grineer unit, without Ancients it's level 110). With Molecular Prime? Everything up to level 130 (or 150 if you don't count Ancients). In a radius, not point-damage, in a 15m Radius.

How many AMD's can Nova drop? With good positioning, efficiency and a team for CC it's 1 every 3-4 seconds. At a low-ball of 8 seconds per shot, Nova would still be dealing up to 750,000 damage per minute, double that if they had a good team for 1.5 million damage per minute.

Actually, I'm well aware of this. However, you missed the part earlier where I stated that I wish for frames to stand on their own. AMD does a whopping 0 damage on its own. It requires gun play, and has a hard cap set in place. It does not infinitely scale.

 We do not need abilities dealing true damage. We are so much more powerful than you are giving any of the frames and abilities credit for.

I main a Nidus, play around with Saryn, and have Garuda in a good place (some changes coming soon though, so we'll see what happens). I give these frames plenty of credit. Including the ones that don't deal damage. Oberon's abilities are very nice, especially when you're just helping people out. His 2 and 4 are like a mini chaos, with the added benefits of extra armor and stripping the enemies armor. I have not once indicated that I don't enjoy these frames, I just don't see a reason to have damage on them if they're meant to just be a support or what have you, like my Trinity example earlier. She's just pure support. She doesn't do damage except with Link. And that requires enemies to target her.

And that's because none of this even factors in what other frames can do. Octavia's Mallet will scale infinitely. Mag's Magnetise has been proven to kill level 1700 enemies. With the right combo, I've witnessed players one-shot a Sortie Vay Heck with a Fishing Spear and a Mining Laser.

Mag's Magnetize will do extra damage after you apply the gun play to it. Of course it can one shot level 1700 enemies after you've thrown in billions of damage worth of bullets. As for the fishing spear, that sounds pretty hilarious. And I'm certain it requires an extremely specific set up. Which is fine, and I don't mind that being a thing.

You say you might get an extra 50+ levels with true damage on abilities? I say that players have already gotten to the point with our regular damage where they actually break the enemy scaling.

Forget 50+ this would allow players to take a solo run an extra 500. I could do it, you could do it. A bored Ivara player would be able to run Interceptions for a whole day. A player like LifeofRio would probably only come out of Survivals because the game actually is proven to break coding when you get to around level 5000-6000.

A bored Ivara player already can do that. She has some of the best CC in the game, along with some of the highest damage because of her 4 being a mod-able weapon. Players already can get to those levels of difficulty, so turning these into true damage doesn't really seem like that much of an issue.

...

Ugh... look, I do get your overall point; why does our ability damage have to cap out on some abilities? Why does casting some of them seem to do nothing past a certain point? Why does it not feel as powerful as it looks?

That's a fine opinion.

I have never stated at any point that I want damage to scale infinitely. Not once. You seem to have misconstrued what I'm trying to say. All I'm saying is that if an ability does a certain amount of damage, why apply DR/damage to it if it's going to be near useless at end-game anyway? That's it. That's all I'm saying. I don't want to be able to murder everyone with Loki's 4. He's a niche frame with plenty of utility in his kit. I don't want to have Oberon murder a level 90 with his 4. I have guns for that. But it makes little sense to give these enemies resistances to Warframe abilities when it wouldn't matter even if you took it out.

But it's an opinion from a place of not knowing how our damage actually can and does scale. But more importantly it's not taking into account how mechanical effects of abilities can scale independent of their damage.

Abilities that do small amounts of damage are not suddenly null-and-void once the damage stops affecting the enemies. There is a use for almost every single one of them, and some of those uses are downright broken.

I know plenty well how the damage system works, thank you very much. Again, as I stated earlier, Corrosive and Viral are some of the most used status ailments for a reason, because they do their jobs very well. Radiation, too. The ability to make enemies who're far stronger than you fight each other is great. I also used to be around back when Damage 1.0 was a thing. I joined Warframe just after Open Beta started. This doesn't mean jack. Excalibur used to deal Serrated Blade (True) damage back then, and was a great combination with Mag. Ash, in fact, still does True Damage. And you know what? I don't really see a lot of Ash players around. I wonder why that is? Probably because the damage scaling is so heavy at those points in the game that it doesn't matter that he's doing True Damage at all, because his numbers are tweaked just right for him to stop scaling and reach a ceiling.

 

[Femuru]

so in a game where everything is already easily cheesed even by the weakest frames, the enemies should be nerfed. . . . . .u kidding enemies been needing the largest buff for the longest. the only way ppl get the challenge they are looking for is staying in a survival for several hours to where enemies lvl reach a couple thousand even on mot where the scaling is the strongest. of course there are some bad frames who cant go crazy far as the majority (cuz DE still cant balance out their roster) but honestly the game is so ez u could play 1 handed in just the regular 20 min games.

Edited November 27, 2018 by ShenRyujin

[Kalthea]

3 hours ago, ShenRyujin said:

so in a game where everything is already easily cheesed even by the weakest frames, the enemies should be nerfed. . . . . .u kidding enemies been needing the largest buff for the longest. the only way ppl get the challenge they are looking for is staying in a survival for several hours to where enemies lvl reach a couple thousand even on mot where the scaling is the strongest. of course there are some bad frames who cant go crazy far as the majority (cuz DE still cant balance out their roster) but honestly the game is so ez u could play 1 handed in just the regular 20 min games.

Honestly, the only way to make this game more difficult and buff enemies is to add more variety. That's why you see things like Nullifiers, and more than likely the only reason why armor is still in the position that it is, capable of nearly 99% damage reduction. The reason Warframes themselves are so powerful is because of the wide variety of means that we have to deal with them, Crowd Control being the largest contender. It doesn't matter if you can't kill an enemy when they can't even move or shoot at you. That's why Nullifiers are so strong, because enemies can stay within their bubble to prevent from getting wiped out (and often times do, as the AI is programmed to have everyone gather near the bubble if they're close enough). But I guess this can be considered a nerf, even though I don't think it would be much of one. Like I said, CC is the reigning champion right now. A bit more damage isn't gonna do jack.

Here's a good example of what I mean. In this first picture, I made a loadout with maximum power strength at 323%, not utilizing buff mods or Umbral Intensify (cuz I don't have a higher level one yet), just the flat bonuses. I approached the level 75 Lancer as Equinox, cast my 2 for an additional 161% damage, my 3 for an additional 50% Ability Strength, and finally cast my 4 to proc slash damage. The first hit does 343 damage, and procs the Slash effect. Each tick of slash after that does 559 damage each, due to the increased power of my abilities, hitting for 4 times in total. That's 343 + (559 x 4) = 2,579 damage total to the enemy. Here's what that looks like on their health bar:

https://puu.sh/C8nZv/b4c82e731f.png

Keep in mind, this is near maximum power strength. You could easily just argue against this by saying "But that's not where her damage comes from, you build it up by killing things", but I'm just using this as an example. 

Here, in this next image, I am going to take a Pandero, modified for crit and the like, as you would do with any weapon that you have on you. What are the results? Oh, whoops, I crit him for 11,190 damage and he died in one shot.

https://puu.sh/C8ohh/48bf9f584a.png

Now let's take a look at Oberon with the same build as Equinox! His page says that he should be doing 4,037.5 to the enemy. After shooting him in the knee with two bullets from the Pandero, I did a total of 2,797 x 2 = 5,594 damage to the Lancer. Still level 75.

 https://puu.sh/C8oly/121e876981.png

Oh look, he's still alive! Now how much does Oberon actually do when I press 4 with 323% Power Strength? 795 on the first cast, and then 1,192 on the second, for a whopping 1,987 damage to the Lancer. And that looks like this on his health bar: 

http://puu.sh/C8oqN/2306a60686.png 

The point I'm trying to raise with this is that it's not as much of a buff as you think it would be. Especially with Oberon. Even if I did do that 4,000 damage with his 4, and then shredded his armor by 50%, guess how much damage it would do after that? It would still do 4,000. Because the armor wouldn't be affecting it to begin with. Keep in mind that this enemy is just a Sortie level enemy, it's not even extremely far into the Sortie honestly. Second mission I would say. And this is just a basic Lancer, the grunt type enemy. It's not even counting Heavy Gunners or Ancient Healers even. On top of that, you have shields from Corpus that would also take damage from these abilities.

True damage is not as much of a buff as you would think with these numbers, and this is an extremely high damage build with these characters, that come with some strong caveats, like reduced efficiency and range. Of course you're not going to build every character like this, but again, these are just examples, and tweaking these numbers after giving True Damage to all frames may honestly make it easier to balance them in the long run, as you would be able to see where the strong or weak points are on a frame and then just adjust the numbers to balance them out. This would NOT remove any ceilings! I don't know why people keep trying to say that it would. You will still reach ceilings, and frames that have high damage ramp up will still have high damage ramp up.

[Femuru]

3 hours ago, Kalthea said:

Honestly, the only way to make this game more difficult and buff enemies is to add more variety. That's why you see things like Nullifiers, and more than likely the only reason why armor is still in the position that it is, capable of nearly 99% damage reduction. The reason Warframes themselves are so powerful is because of the wide variety of means that we have to deal with them, Crowd Control being the largest contender. It doesn't matter if you can't kill an enemy when they can't even move or shoot at you. That's why Nullifiers are so strong, because enemies can stay within their bubble to prevent from getting wiped out (and often times do, as the AI is programmed to have everyone gather near the bubble if they're close enough). But I guess this can be considered a nerf, even though I don't think it would be much of one. Like I said, CC is the reigning champion right now. A bit more damage isn't gonna do jack.

Here's a good example of what I mean. In this first picture, I made a loadout with maximum power strength at 323%, not utilizing buff mods or Umbral Intensify (cuz I don't have a higher level one yet), just the flat bonuses. I approached the level 75 Lancer as Equinox, cast my 2 for an additional 161% damage, my 3 for an additional 50% Ability Strength, and finally cast my 4 to proc slash damage. The first hit does 343 damage, and procs the Slash effect. Each tick of slash after that does 559 damage each, due to the increased power of my abilities, hitting for 4 times in total. That's 343 + (559 x 4) = 2,579 damage total to the enemy. Here's what that looks like on their health bar:

https://puu.sh/C8nZv/b4c82e731f.png

Keep in mind, this is near maximum power strength. You could easily just argue against this by saying "But that's not where her damage comes from, you build it up by killing things", but I'm just using this as an example. 

Here, in this next image, I am going to take a Pandero, modified for crit and the like, as you would do with any weapon that you have on you. What are the results? Oh, whoops, I crit him for 11,190 damage and he died in one shot.

https://puu.sh/C8ohh/48bf9f584a.png

Now let's take a look at Oberon with the same build as Equinox! His page says that he should be doing 4,037.5 to the enemy. After shooting him in the knee with two bullets from the Pandero, I did a total of 2,797 x 2 = 5,594 damage to the Lancer. Still level 75.

 https://puu.sh/C8oly/121e876981.png

Oh look, he's still alive! Now how much does Oberon actually do when I press 4 with 323% Power Strength? 795 on the first cast, and then 1,192 on the second, for a whopping 1,987 damage to the Lancer. And that looks like this on his health bar: 

http://puu.sh/C8oqN/2306a60686.png 

The point I'm trying to raise with this is that it's not as much of a buff as you think it would be. Especially with Oberon. Even if I did do that 4,000 damage with his 4, and then shredded his armor by 50%, guess how much damage it would do after that? It would still do 4,000. Because the armor wouldn't be affecting it to begin with. Keep in mind that this enemy is just a Sortie level enemy, it's not even extremely far into the Sortie honestly. Second mission I would say. And this is just a basic Lancer, the grunt type enemy. It's not even counting Heavy Gunners or Ancient Healers even. On top of that, you have shields from Corpus that would also take damage from these abilities.

True damage is not as much of a buff as you would think with these numbers, and this is an extremely high damage build with these characters, that come with some strong caveats, like reduced efficiency and range. Of course you're not going to build every character like this, but again, these are just examples, and tweaking these numbers after giving True Damage to all frames may honestly make it easier to balance them in the long run, as you would be able to see where the strong or weak points are on a frame and then just adjust the numbers to balance them out. This would NOT remove any ceilings! I don't know why people keep trying to say that it would. You will still reach ceilings, and frames that have high damage ramp up will still have high damage ramp up.

so wat would even be the point in armor in the game at all then? true damage is already seen as op but to buff every frame wit it possible gonna throw the mess of a balance we have now even farther out the window. if there is one thing i learned in 3 years of this game is that pen and paper will never give the same results from several hours of testing the frames non stop plus anyone who played each frame to a high difficulty can pretty much feel which frames are still clunky and behind (like idk testing each and every single frame potential build on mot for atleast 4-5 hours runs each? cuz ppl do actually do this) but no matter wat rework/tweak anyone want it takes DE probly a half year to relook past release on a SINGLE frame so i dont see this happening. numbers alone isnt gonna determine the frame, its their mechanics in which most have that are very op besides like a small handful. also armor units is where some frames specialize in like ash, mag, saryn, and ps oberon can fully strip armor of a full room (he is more a support frame and strength and weaknesses are filled by TEAM compositions). also wanna add wit more true damage just mean we can even easily spam nuke sorties too making the game alot more boring than it already become. also even cc doesnt play like it used to anymore because slowing down enemies means slowing down life support which leads to ending the mission before getting into true difficulty. im not gonna really bother to fight this but im still sticking wit the fact 1 balance will become more of a mess this way 2 the game will become alot more boring from nuking and 3 players arent gonna fully learn the importance of mechanics and how to use em as much anymore

Edited November 27, 2018 by ShenRyujin

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Most abilities are not meant for pure damage. They usually serve additional functions intended to help fulfill the purpose of that frame's kit.

Oberon, for example, has always been described as a Paladin. He provides balance with offensive, defensive and support abilities. He shouldn't be doing 100% unmitigated damage like Ash, because Ash isn't capable of increasing the armor and health of the whole party while also preventing status effects, along with stripping enemy armor and confusing enemies with radiation all with the same 4 abilities.

The more you can do the more you have to give up. You can't expect to be able to do everything and still be the best at all of it, rivaling those that do nothing else but that...

[MickThejaguar]

16 hours ago, Kalthea said:

But according to your earlier statement, Oberon isn't meant to do damage. So now it's there to kill low level mobs? Which is it? This is why forums are a terrible place for discussion. They're mostly just used as a "drop your statement here and expect everyone listen". This discussion is very long, and honestly I doubt anyone who comes to the second page is going to bother reading through the first page. They just want to throw in their statement and expect everyone else to listen. Not an attack on you, just a general statement of why forums are bad for this type of discussion.

At lower levels armor stripping is worthless. So yes, at lower levels where the ability would likely one shot anyways, it's used for damage. However most warframe abilities can serve two or more different functions depending on the level of content you're playing. At lower levels Saryn's one can be used by itself to clear maps but as enemies get stronger it becomes less of a DoT map clear and more of an AOE debuff/set up for her 4th ability. But here's the thing: At lower levels, the amount of damage Oberon's ult does is high enough that the low amount of armor enemies have isn't an issue. So ignoring it is pointless. By the time you've reached a point where enemy armor is a problem, you should probably be stripping armor anyways. So ignoring it is pointless. The game is essentially set up in a way that early on everything you do does enough damage to kill but as time progresses the DPSs actually have their damage scale while everyone else's damage stagnates and falls off. Last of all, the burden of proof is not on myself or the other responders to prove why this change shouldn't be made (Which you did yourself, you just refuse to acknowledge it). The burden of proof lies on you to prove why this is a problem, which you've failed to do. 

[Kalthea]

Ugh. I'm starting to hate Forums as a place of discussion. People just don't read through them.

9 hours ago, ShenRyujin said:

so wat would even be the point in armor in the game at all then? true damage is already seen as op but to buff every frame wit it possible gonna throw the mess of a balance we have now even farther out the window. if there is one thing i learned in 3 years of this game is that pen and paper will never give the same results from several hours of testing the frames non stop plus anyone who played each frame to a high difficulty can pretty much feel which frames are still clunky and behind (like idk testing each and every single frame potential build on mot for atleast 4-5 hours runs each? cuz ppl do actually do this) but no matter wat rework/tweak anyone want it takes DE probly a half year to relook past release on a SINGLE frame so i dont see this happening. numbers alone isnt gonna determine the frame, its their mechanics in which most have that are very op besides like a small handful. also armor units is where some frames specialize in like ash, mag, saryn, and ps oberon can fully strip armor of a full room (he is more a support frame and strength and weaknesses are filled by TEAM compositions). also wanna add wit more true damage just mean we can even easily spam nuke sorties too making the game alot more boring than it already become. also even cc doesnt play like it used to anymore because slowing down enemies means slowing down life support which leads to ending the mission before getting into true difficulty. im not gonna really bother to fight this but im still sticking wit the fact 1 balance will become more of a mess this way 2 the game will become alot more boring from nuking and 3 players arent gonna fully learn the importance of mechanics and how to use em as much anymore

1) Balance wouldn't necessarily become a mess. If you're dealing True Damage, it could be easier to tweak it based upon where it's over performing. Doing far too much in mid-game? Then nerf the damage, since you don't need the damage in the late-game.

2) I'm not asking for Warframes to be overpowered. All I have said is that it doesn't make sense to apply Damage Reduction to their abilities when later on it doesn't matter how much damage their abilities do anyway.

3) This is just completely false. Mechanics can be places in-game that force you to work around them. Ancient Healers with their group wide DR, Nullifiers, Anti-Moas, etc.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Most abilities are not meant for pure damage. They usually serve additional functions intended to help fulfill the purpose of that frame's kit.

Oberon, for example, has always been described as a Paladin. He provides balance with offensive, defensive and support abilities. He shouldn't be doing 100% unmitigated damage like Ash, because Ash isn't capable of increasing the armor and health of the whole party while also preventing status effects, along with stripping enemy armor and confusing enemies with radiation all with the same 4 abilities.

The more you can do the more you have to give up. You can't expect to be able to do everything and still be the best at all of it, rivaling those that do nothing else but that...

I'm aware they're not meant for pure damage. I stated earlier that I see no reason to put the damage on a frame if their ability is designed for their CC or utility, and applying DR to that damage doesn't make sense because it's going to fall off no matter what you do. Oberon is the perfect example of this. I have him set up with 200% Power Strength right now, and he deals about 2,500 damage on his ultimate. This is almost nothing, you can even compare it to my earlier posts. At level 75, it would take at least 3 casts in order to kill a Grineer Lancer. That's a lot of casts! At that point I would be using it for the CC and armor stripping anyway. Then take a look at Trinity, who deals a whopping ZERO DAMAGE. Oh look, she's still an amazing utility character that provides a lot of sustain to her team, and a hard CC with her 1 and 2 on tough enemies.

3 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

At lower levels armor stripping is worthless. So yes, at lower levels where the ability would likely one shot anyways, it's used for damage. However most warframe abilities can serve two or more different functions depending on the level of content you're playing. At lower levels Saryn's one can be used by itself to clear maps but as enemies get stronger it becomes less of a DoT map clear and more of an AOE debuff/set up for her 4th ability. But here's the thing: At lower levels, the amount of damage Oberon's ult does is high enough that the low amount of armor enemies have isn't an issue. So ignoring it is pointless. By the time you've reached a point where enemy armor is a problem, you should probably be stripping armor anyways. So ignoring it is pointless. The game is essentially set up in a way that early on everything you do does enough damage to kill but as time progresses the DPSs actually have their damage scale while everyone else's damage stagnates and falls off. Last of all, the burden of proof is not on myself or the other responders to prove why this change shouldn't be made (Which you did yourself, you just refuse to acknowledge it). The burden of proof lies on you to prove why this is a problem, which you've failed to do. 

I do acknowledge it. But I also acknowledge that it's a pointless addition, no matter what way you look at it. Read my two previous responses in this post. I am well aware that applying DR to abilities is meant to provide balance, but it does NOT change anything even if the abilities were to deal True Damage. So why even bother having the DR apply other than "it's just how the system works right now". Which, yes, it is how the system works now. I'm asking a question here, I'm not saying that we need to change it over night and "i want my frames to be OP" or "I want enemies to be fodder that just stand there".

Why bother having Damage Reduction apply to Warframe abilities if they're going to fall off anyway?

That's it. That's all I'm asking.

If you want me to "acknowledge it", here's my acknowledgement. It's just how the system works. But just because I acknowledge it doesn't mean that I shouldn't ask questions or wonder how things would work if they were tweaked a bit. Especially when we just got Garuda, a frame who can literally THREE SHOT ANY MOB IN THE GAME AT ANY LEVEL. You press 4, press 1, charge 1, release. They're dead. Period.

If I wanted my frames to be overpowered, I wouldn't need to look much farther than where we are now. Inaros can get a ridiculous amount of survivability and set people up for finishers, Nova doubles the damage enemies take and slows them to a crawl, Nidus can't die with the right amount of stacks+his 3 and provides an amazing Party Ball CC, Vauban can CC entire rooms in two casts, Gara can give her team 90% DR and make her aura deal stupid amounts of damage and can just walk next to enemies, Saryn has huge scaling damage and is amazing at map-wide armor stripping and is able to buff her team's damage, Ivara can stealth for a nigh-unlimited amount of time and has one of the best AoE CCs with her sleep arrows, and I could continue to go on if I wanted to.

Please, just confirm that you understand my question. I don't want to turn every frame into a 1-hit god, that's just stupid.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Kalthea

[Femuru]

5 hours ago, Kalthea said:

Ugh. I'm starting to hate Forums as a place of discussion. People just don't read through them.

1) Balance wouldn't necessarily become a mess. If you're dealing True Damage, it could be easier to tweak it based upon where it's over performing. Doing far too much in mid-game? Then nerf the damage, since you don't need the damage in the late-game.

2) I'm not asking for Warframes to be overpowered. All I have said is that it doesn't make sense to apply Damage Reduction to their abilities when later on it doesn't matter how much damage their abilities do anyway.

3) This is just completely false. Mechanics can be places in-game that force you to work around them. Ancient Healers with their group wide DR, Nullifiers, Anti-Moas, etc.

No u just haven't played the game enough or took the time to understand it lmfao. We just explaining why it won't work Yur just refusing to accept it

1. There are frames completely based on mechanics, mods, and weapons that easily deal with armor that makes them good which then becomes bad. If frames get true dmg then even weak frames with the weakest ability will one shot everything. And as I said DE takes several months to even consider relooking at a frame imagine all the number changes and mechanic changes because the got rid of a entire variable in the game. 

2 because everything will be one shot and there will be zero point to weapons. Saying u don't want them over powered but ask for something overpowered scratches my head. Ppl just gonna go in a mission ANY aoe, read a book and press 4 wit their toe the whole time if true dmg is applied. 

3 Yea so since everything dies instantly now wats the point in all the armor strip abilities from ash, mag, Oberon, frost? Wats the point in corrosive/slash procs? Wat do we need cc for if we just nuke the whole room? Y would we ever need dmg boosters like banshee,  chroma,  or rhino wen now u can use anything to kill enemies right off the bat?

Like I said I don't wanna bother fighting this but wen I try to think about it, I can't get any sense of it on how this wouldn't make the game more boring. As for lvl 75 . . . . .  . . Try dealing wit lvl 3000 enemies we can kill them easily at 75 but cuz a ability that wasnt meant to do dmg doesn't one shot the strongest armor scaling unit in the game it's now a a difficult game. . . .yur free to Yur ideas but we are also free to say y they make no sense lol. This is like saying let's go to league of legends and tell them to remove armor so I'd never have to buy armor pen or lethality. Oh the are ppl who have text that involves armor? Oh there are abilities getting overly strong cuz armor is gone? Oh well just toss it out the window with the rest rofl xD

Edited November 28, 2018 by ShenRyujin

[Kalthea]

2 hours ago, ShenRyujin said:

No u just haven't played the game enough or took the time to understand it lmfao. We just explaining why it won't work Yur just refusing to accept it

1. There are frames completely based on mechanics, mods, and weapons that easily deal with armor that makes them good which then becomes bad. If frames get true dmg then even weak frames with the weakest ability will one shot everything. And as I said DE takes several months to even consider relooking at a frame imagine all the number changes and mechanic changes because the got rid of a entire variable in the game. 

2 because everything will be one shot and there will be zero point to weapons. Saying u don't want them over powered but ask for something overpowered scratches my head. Ppl just gonna go in a mission ANY aoe, read a book and press 4 wit their toe the whole time if true dmg is applied. 

3 Yea so since everything dies instantly now wats the point in all the armor strip abilities from ash, mag, Oberon, frost? Wats the point in corrosive/slash procs? Wat do we need cc for if we just nuke the whole room? Y would we ever need dmg boosters like banshee,  chroma,  or rhino wen now u can use anything to kill enemies right off the bat?

Like I said I don't wanna bother fighting this but wen I try to think about it, I can't get any sense of it on how this wouldn't make the game more boring. As for lvl 75 . . . . .  . . Try dealing wit lvl 3000 enemies we can kill them easily at 75 but cuz a ability that wasnt meant to do dmg doesn't one shot the strongest armor scaling unit in the game it's now a a difficult game. . . .yur free to Yur ideas but we are also free to say y they make no sense lol. This is like saying let's go to league of legends and tell them to remove armor so I'd never have to buy armor pen or lethality. Oh the are ppl who have text that involves armor? Oh there are abilities getting overly strong cuz armor is gone? Oh well just toss it out the window with the rest rofl xD

You didn't even bother to read below what I responded to you with. 

1) I don't want frames to one shot everything. I don't know HOW you keep getting this idea. Just because something is dealing True Damage doesn't mean that it's going to die in one shot. 500 True Damage against an enemy with 600 HP is not going to kill it. It's 500 damage. They'll be left off with 100 HP, at which point you shoot them or cast the ability again. And yes, this may cause development time to increase, but it also may cause it to be easier to balance frames down the line with simple number tweaks. Hell, I don't even think you have to do that. Honestly, some frames numbers are already so low that the True Damage value might not even change anything.

2) Where are you getting this idea that I want everything to be one shot? Nothing will be one shot at higher levels! 500 damage is 500 damage. That's it. It's not going to deal anything higher or lower than that, EVER. Because that's all it does! If that 500 damage is too high, then tune the 500 down to 400. Done! Now it's not one-shotting mid-level enemies and it's still making it easy to deal with low-level enemies. What makes you think that True Damage is just all of the enemy's health? Because it's not.

3) See my previous point. Armor stripping would still be required at later parts of the game because the ability would still be dealing 500 damage, and at that point the enemy would not only have higher armor to deal with your weaponry, but also far more HP to deal with that measly 500 damage you're applying to it. An enemy with 1,000,000 HP does not give a damn about 500 damage.

If you're going to try to refute me, please try to read through everything I've posted first. Please. I'm not asking for the ability to one-shot a level 3000 enemy. There's already a means of dealing with them anyway. I honestly have no idea where you're getting the idea that I want armor removed from the game. I have never once said that. I'm just curious as to why our Void Magic-y Warframes have DR applied to them on what's supposed to be powerful abilities.

The answer is "because that's just how the system works", by the way. Read my previous response above this one. But the only reason I've been given so far that I honestly consider to be a legitimate reasoning as to WHY this would be a bad idea is because it would give the Devs more work. Other than that, the numbers seem perfectly fine to me.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Kalthea

[Femuru]

21 minutes ago, Kalthea said:

You didn't even bother to read below what I responded to you with. 

1) I don't want frames to one shot everything. I don't know HOW you keep getting this idea. Just because something is dealing True Damage doesn't mean that it's going to die in one shot. 500 True Damage against an enemy with 600 HP is not going to kill it. It's 500 damage. They'll be left off with 100 HP, at which point you shoot them or cast the ability again. And yes, this may cause development time to increase, but it also may cause it to be easier to balance frames down the line with simple number tweaks. Hell, I don't even think you have to do that. Honestly, some frames numbers are already so low that the True Damage value might not even change anything.

2) Where are you getting this idea that I want everything to be one shot? Nothing will be one shot at higher levels! 500 damage is 500 damage. That's it. It's not going to deal anything higher or lower than that, EVER. Because that's all it does! If that 500 damage is too high, then tune the 500 down to 400. Done! Now it's not one-shotting mid-level enemies and it's still making it easy to deal with low-level enemies. What makes you think that True Damage is just all of the enemy's health? Because it's not.

3) See my previous point. Armor stripping would still be required at later parts of the game because the ability would still be dealing 500 damage, and at that point the enemy would not only have higher armor to deal with your weaponry, but also far more HP to deal with that measly 500 damage you're applying to it. An enemy with 1,000,000 HP does not give a damn about 500 damage.

If you're going to try to refute me, please try to read through everything I've posted first. Please. I'm not asking for the ability to one-shot a level 3000 enemy. There's already a means of dealing with them anyway. I honestly have no idea where you're getting the idea that I want armor removed from the game. I have never once said that. I'm just curious as to why our Void Magic-y Warframes have DR applied to them on what's supposed to be powerful abilities.

The answer is "because that's just how the system works", by the way. Read my previous response above this one. But the only reason I've been given so far that I honestly consider to be a legitimate reasoning as to WHY this would be a bad idea is because it would give the Devs more work. Other than that, the numbers seem perfectly fine to me.

now THIS is where im now dead laughing on the floor, its like the person never heard of modding i cant breath LOL XD

Edited November 28, 2018 by ShenRyujin

[Kalthea]

1 minute ago, ShenRyujin said:

now THIS is where im now dead laughing on the floor, its like the person never heard of modding LOL XD

Please, if you've nothing constructive to say, just don't say it. At this point I'm just going to ignore what you're saying, since you're not even looking back what what I've had to say. I've presented builds that use maximum Power Strength (that I had available) that don't even come near a one-shot on a level 75 mob, even if they were to do True Damage. I'm well aware of what modding is, however you seem to be completely ignoring all of my points so why should I listen to you?

[Femuru]

3 minutes ago, Kalthea said:

Please, if you've nothing constructive to say, just don't say it. At this point I'm just going to ignore what you're saying, since you're not even looking back what what I've had to say. I've presented builds that use maximum Power Strength (that I had available) that don't even come near a one-shot on a level 75 mob, even if they were to do True Damage. I'm well aware of what modding is, however you seem to be completely ignoring all of my points so why should I listen to you?

cuz at this point im just here for the laughs its just too funny reading the points, anyone who tested and played long enough already see how many holes there are xD

Edited November 28, 2018 by ShenRyujin

[Kalthea]

1 minute ago, ShenRyujin said:

cuz at this point im just here for the laughs xD

But you're literally the only one laughing? Everyone else has at least been civil and disagreed with me on an equal level. Instead of going after my arguments, your point now is to just go after me because you can't refute what I'm saying. Have a good one~

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

16 hours ago, Kalthea said:

I'm aware they're not meant for pure damage. I stated earlier that I see no reason to put the damage on a frame if their ability is designed for their CC or utility, and applying DR to that damage doesn't make sense because it's going to fall off no matter what you do.

So you think the only abilities that should do any damage are dedicated, unmitigated damage abilities and nothing else. Not every frame is capable of relying 100% on their abilities to kill. How to you kill then? Weapons right? The ability to damage that portion of the enemies health, along with armor stripping in that case, makes them need less damage from you or your allies before they die. Any damage is better than no damage, no matter what. That portion of damage may be enough to kill off some enemies that have already received damage. A Warframe comes in to a mission will a full arsenal, and you need to use all parts of it in tandem to succeed. 

16 hours ago, Kalthea said:

Then take a look at Trinity, who deals a whopping ZERO DAMAGE. Oh look, she's still an amazing utility character that provides a lot of sustain to her team, and a hard CC with her 1 and 2 on tough enemies.

Energy Vampire actually deals True damage based on a % of the enemy's health... With the right build it's able to quickly and easily kill enemies, but that's not it's purpose since it's meant to be used with weapons to get the full benefit faster (again, using your full arsenal). It's also the single most powerful energy recovery method in the game, and honestly quite broken since she can gain back several times the amount of energy she puts into it so it doesn't need to be a room clearing ability...

Her Link ability redirects 100% of incoming damage to nearby enemies, and is supplemented with your arsenal (see the theme?) allowing her do handle enemies.

[Kalthea]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

So you think the only abilities that should do any damage are dedicated, unmitigated damage abilities and nothing else. Not every frame is capable of relying 100% on their abilities to kill. How to you kill then? Weapons right? The ability to damage that portion of the enemies health, along with armor stripping in that case, makes them need less damage from you or your allies before they die. Any damage is better than no damage, no matter what. That portion of damage may be enough to kill off some enemies that have already received damage. A Warframe comes in to a mission will a full arsenal, and you need to use all parts of it in tandem to succeed. 

Energy Vampire actually deals True damage based on a % of the enemy's health... With the right build it's able to quickly and easily kill enemies, but that's not it's purpose since it's meant to be used with weapons to get the full benefit faster (again, using your full arsenal). It's also the single most powerful energy recovery method in the game, and honestly quite broken since she can gain back several times the amount of energy she puts into it so it doesn't need to be a room clearing ability...

Her Link ability redirects 100% of incoming damage to nearby enemies, and is supplemented with your arsenal (see the theme?) allowing her do handle enemies.

See, I mentioned earlier that I was referring strictly to Warframes standing on their own, without considering weaponry.

However, after bringing this up with a friend, he mentioned a very solid point. I, for some reason, completely forgot about Chroma. Chroma is built entirely around the idea that these damage types remain the way they are so that he can change his energy color to change his element. This alone was a good enough reason for me to just be like "yeah, I see why that would be silly then".

Do keep in mind that I wasn't saying I wanted this to become a thing. I'm fine with the system the way it is now, this was more of a kind of thought experiment I guess you could say. Pondering why certain frames wouldn't have True Damage on their abilities 'n whatnot. Of course you're gonna bring a full arsenal, and a frame that has the best damage/survivability/cc for the situation you're in.

I think at this point it's been put to rest.

Also, my bad for not noticing the %HP damage on Energy Vampire. It's not on the tool tip in the Abilities screen in-game, so you have to cast it on something to see it actually do damage. Thanks for that tidbit~

[MickThejaguar]

On 2018-11-27 at 2:05 PM, Kalthea said:

Why bother having Damage Reduction apply to Warframe abilities if they're going to fall off anyway?

So that they fall off faster and harder, forcing players to use other means of dealing with enemies much sooner, at least in the case of non-DPS frames.

On 2018-11-27 at 2:05 PM, Kalthea said:

If you want me to "acknowledge it", here's my acknowledgement. It's just how the system works.

This is not what I meant. In your OP you made a point to note that changing this could result in a heavy unbalancing of the game, using Saryn as an example. After that you completely dismissed every other instance of me mentioning it. This what I wanted you to acknowledge because it literally answers the question why things should remain the same.

 

[Kalthea]

2 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

So that they fall off faster and harder, forcing players to use other means of dealing with enemies much sooner, at least in the case of non-DPS frames.

This is not what I meant. In your OP you made a point to note that changing this could result in a heavy unbalancing of the game, using Saryn as an example. After that you completely dismissed every other instance of me mentioning it. This what I wanted you to acknowledge because it literally answers the question why things should remain the same.

 

Read the post above this one, please.