Game Isn't Really Fun.

[JerichoFayne]

At first I was like, "Then don't play."

 

But then I read this & realized it was a cleverly concealed petition for PvP thread.

 

So now I'm all like, "Then don't play."

[Fundance]

I play this game for the grind, the numbers, and the satisfaction of testing those numbers on large hoards of dumb enemies that stand and take it.

 

I would NOT like to see it turned into a Deus Ex where the satisfaction of taking down hoards is replaced by a highly tactical approach where EVERY enemy needs to be treated like a boss. And some of us really like shoot n' loot in a game. The satisfaction of seeing things spill out onto the ground and then picking them up is just one of those things that make games what they are. This creates a sort of damage migitation playstyle where the goal is to keep the enemy numbers down without being overwhelmed, which takes a different kind of skill.

 

Mook mobs are meant to be mook mobs. If they're going to make enemies with increased AI, they should be minibosses staggered throughout stages. But I would hate to see every single damn grineer rolling about and flanking in a manner that makes weapons like the Torid no longer fun to use.

[Boatsniper]

Shameless thread plug.

[JerichoFayne]

Shameless thread plug.

 

That was a good thread, BTW.

 

ITT:  We complement Boatsniper on his excellent other thread.

[Azure_Kytia]

I'd rather compliment him; I doubt I have the creativity to come up with something as awesome as his ideas.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[r3dzer0]

This game needs a skill sink.

 

I need to skillfully be able to complete a challenge and be more effective then someone spamming 4.

 

It's the gameplay that dries up due to the abilities.

I see it differently, you can run and gun and never use an ability and you'll still get bored.  skill sink yeah, but not from your end, but rather the devs end with ai. 

 

also while i'm at it, to the op, unfortunately the way DE is pushing it, there isn't much co-op at all.  they're including leaderboards and other meta forms of competition which will only benefit rushers or aoe warframes.  there's a lot that needs to be changed, but  i don't think they have the cahones to do it because it'd require a fairly massive overhaul.

[Sushin]

I see it differently, you can run and gun and never use an ability and you'll still get bored.  skill sink yeah, but not from your end, but rather the devs end with ai. 

 

also while i'm at it, to the op, unfortunately the way DE is pushing it, there isn't much co-op at all.  they're including leaderboards and other meta forms of competition which will only benefit rushers or aoe warframes.  there's a lot that needs to be changed, but  i don't think they have the cahones to do it because it'd require a fairly massive overhaul.

Unfortunately that's probably true. I think the game has reached a sort of "point of no return." Any changes they make for the better would be very disruptive, I think, and since people are putting money down on the game, it might not even be a good idea to change the game. Off the top of my head, I think abilities should be overhauled. I agree with a previous poster that Loki is very much a support and team based character and I would love to see more warframe abilities like the ones he has, and better, but to change all the abilities of warframe that people have purchased with real money sounds like it would start a riot or something.

When I play Loki and find myself in a situation where Radial Disarm can be used, I always feel like any other warframe could simply kill everything I was disarming with their best skill.

 

What's left is adding things, rather than changing them. I hope they make the right decisions.

[Eisvogel]

It's basically true, the game isn't fun... it lacks almost every component to make an enjoyable game/gameplay. And it is probably one of the less new-players-friendly games I've seen. I bet more than half the people that install the game just quit after starting due to this.

 

Hopefully, at some point, DE will address this... because they haven't been doing it so far.

 

Here are some suggestions about how to try to improve this situation if you are interested:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92326-we-need-endgame-and-a-challenge-what-do-we-expect-for-warframes-future/

[TwoCrabs]

if you dont agree with the basics of this game....Im sorry to say that, but just dont play it...
this game is a complete grindfest, yes, but if you want something different, get a new game :<

its like saying "I dont like yu-gi-oh, because I dont like cards" or something
like DE said they never expected an audience like this, they just wanted to make a quick, sweet game with awesome loot
and not a game that needs rocketsience-engineers to make people play it +500 hours(even tough I passed that mark many,many....MANY hours ago)
I know Ill get the living hek spammed outta me, but BY THE LOTUS guis stahp :<

[EganMC]

Game isn't really fun?

Sure, Missions lose depth, but if you put TIME into this game, then you start to realise the true variety at your hands.

It makes it more fun when playing missions with a new warframe, weapon, or unique loadout.

However, the most fun I find in this game is when I set my own objectives, namely if I need a blueprint, I'll dedicate my time to killing that ONE boss as efficiently as I can, setting myself challenges on the way or simply switching frames to keep the gameplay in flow and exciting.

300+ Hours of gameplay, and I haven't been bored once.

[r3dzer0]

if you dont agree with the basics of this game....Im sorry to say that, but just dont play it...

this game is a complete grindfest, yes, but if you want something different, get a new game :<

its like saying "I dont like yu-gi-oh, because I dont like cards" or something

like DE said they never expected an audience like this, they just wanted to make a quick, sweet game with awesome loot

and not a game that needs rocketsience-engineers to make people play it +500 hours(even tough I passed that mark many,many....MANY hours ago)

I know Ill get the living hek spammed outta me, but BY THE LOTUS guis stahp :<

not gonna flame ya or anything, but the basics of the game is that you're a space ninja, with very little sense of that at all.  the game is like zelda without ganandorf, just temples.  I'm not saying by any means that they should do what i say, I just would rather they be very open with their goals.  If they intend to make a pve competitive atmosphere where co-op is really shunted by the fact that you'll have leaderboards pushing everyone to not work together for a common goal then by all means let them come out and say that.

You do not require rocket science engineers to make the game last for a long time, you just need a story to go along with your hook.

[Dionysius]

This is the gameplay feedback forums. He's giving gameplay feedback. Replying with "Then don't play" is a really idiotic thing to do, sorry.

 

EDIT: Damn good feedback I might add.

I don't see you giving any feedback, so you are no different than me.

[Estred]

Then don't play.

If that is the mentality then you are also not a positive influence in this game. Offer real advice. Think of it this way.

 

- The more players quit the fewer there are to play with.

- The more players quit the fewer there are to compensate the cost of paying an artist to make an item or a coder to make a move.

- The more players quit the fewer there are to offer actual feedback if they choose.

 

Overall saying "if you don't like it quit" is a horrible suggestion. What you should be asking yourself is if the OP has a point (which to be fair he does) and what a possible solution may be. Just saying

 

"Don't Play"

 

Is not constructive and not helpful for a Feedback section. Maybe that sort of advice would fit for a "General things not to listen to" section of the forums. That being said the game is fun in how movement and guns can be used, however they really do need to get some focus on what the game is to do.

 

- Is it a movement based shooter? In which case there should be more emphasis on Parkour and Attacking while Parkouring. Enemies also should stop you from moving more often unless you can properly dodge.

- Is it a FPS that just happens to have movement? If so then there should be more aspects about gunplay and effective Melee use.

- Is it a Farmign game where the only point of playing is to get more stuff. That is what Farmville is, which has no "end"

 

So my point is give real feedback not random opinions.

[alocrius]

We've been trying to tell the dev's this for months.  They haven't released an update yet that addresses gameplay.  It's too much work apparently to actually have to add meaningful content to the game.  The more weapons we get the more potatoes we need to buy..  Just keep grinding!  

Edited September 11, 2013 by alocrius

[NitroMidgets]

May I suggest you avoid Firefall then as that is one big steaming POS that once called itself a skill based shooter when in fact it is the poster child of a grindy WoW with guns.

 

However I would suggest you keep an eye out for Survarium.

[Volume]

There is a very fun, very challenging game buried beneath the surface of "watered-down casual easymode grind" or whatever you want to call it...I hope one day to see it fully realized.

What I think you really want is a differently-designed game that operates in the same (or better) engine, with a more fleshed out narrative and more challenging combat. I remember when I first started, I had more fun because I was solo'ing things and the pace was completely different than a rush-through lootfest. And slicing people in half with a Skana felt freakin' awesome. I did feel fragile, weak, easily taken out, but also able to take on anything with precision and quick reflexes. As the game went on, that "I can die if I screw up" feeling goes away. Basically, the mod system makes for extremely forgiving gameplay. The game's design does not scale with the kinds of mods we have.

If anything, I think enemies need their own mods. We scale to the point of a rank 1 Excalibur is challenged by a rank 1 grineer lancer, but a rank 30 Excalibur is not challenged by 100 rank 30 grineer. This leads to the current attempted ridiculous compensation of making enemies ~level 70, with swarm-like "queen bee" AI that doesn't create a challenge, but rather the fact that there are so many bullet sponges.

 

Instead of throwing 200 bullet sponges at me, I'd rather they spawn 5 enemies that I need to think and plan about how to approach.

[K_Shiro]

I for one hate the idea of any enemy being That much thougher. I mean most grineer bosses look just like any other grineer soldier yet they have a brutal amount of hp and shield etc. while the Tennou is at a technological advantage? I mean they hunt for the tennou because they covet the "legendary technology" they have, no? At least that's one big reason for that.

 

Anyways, I believe it would be better to make enemies less "healthy" while taking most of the extra damage we can get ourselves - Not 140% damage bonus but 25% instead for example. Yes. So that way mods would still mean a lot yet you would still die if you f*ck up. I'm a Frost usually, meaning I can go toe-to-toe with any heavy and break them as a twig. Feels strange as if I take my mods off I can barely touch the guy.

 

When I see the grineer guy with the shield protect his fellow soldier (or that coward hiding behind him at least :) I feel like "this is how it should be a challenge" - but as we all know, programming a "clever" ai is not exactly easy...

____________  _ _  ____________

 

[lautalocos]

I'm nearing 300hrs and no, it doesn't. What this game needs is the continuous support from the developers.

They will eventually come up with a way of balancing the game, so it doesn't become a boring grind fest, with nothing more to do.

that´s for you, but for other players playing over 100 hours gets boring

[gell]

Having a lot of friends who quit this game, and my own experience, I agree.

 

It's why we've got threads about end game, but really those threads aren't even talking about end game, because just adding those modes don't fix the rest of the game. The ideas about improving AI, making enemies less bullet sponges, and adding interesting dynamics each time we play should all be applied to the main game.

 

DE has said they're working on that, and granted it is a slow process. They're redoing the mission types slowly. We'll see how new survival is, probably later today, in Update 10. But we also know that's not going to be good for long.

 

In a simple game like Spelunky, you are repeatedly playing the same game, generally. But what makes it interesting is that no matter how good you become, and how familiar you are with challenges, you are always alert. If you slip for a minute in that game, you'll likely end up dead. That keeps your brain engaged in at least the most simple ways, but it's more than what Warframe does. WF has fun mechanics, even if we can suggest improvements. The fun is there. What it needs is to make sure to engage the player at least once every 30 seconds, or every room they enter. If each room is just more idiot enemies to pew pew or slash, most everyone will leave. The only people who will stay and defend the game will be people who play WoW and love to grind while doing things they lost interest in long ago.

[Thaumatos]

Then don't play.

 

This got 15 up-votes?  Really?

 

I guess there are at least 15 people that read this thread who enjoy asinine comments.

[Flackenstien]

The satisfaction of being a space ninja isn't enough for you?

[Dasmir]

Then don't play.

 

This take a break, every game gets boring after a while expecially the Coop/grind ones.

[noneuklid]

In a simple game like Spelunky, you are repeatedly playing the same game, generally. But what makes it interesting is that no matter how good you become, and how familiar you are with challenges, you are always alert.

 

I am slowly growing the heretical opinion that progression mechanics are bad.

 

They serve a purpose, certainly.  It's hard for me to imagine what else could serve that purpose and even harder to articulate.  I've seen a place that games can get to where you are virtually 'gardening' your world, rather than playing it... but I'm diverging here from my point, which is:

 

Progression can actually suck the fun out of a game.

 

When you're doing a game about awesome backflips because they're awesome, it doesn't matter how many you do, or how often; you do them as often as you like, just because.  So everyone loves backflipping, so the developers put in a "backflip count."  It doesn't do anything except track your backflips.

 

But eventually someone gets a bit bored and says, "Well, why not make this do something?  Why not make it so that after you've mastered basic backflips by doing 100 of them, you get a new type of even more awesome backflip you can do?"

 

So the developers put in Backflip 2, which you unlock at 100 backflips... and even though they haven't taken anything away, the general consensus becomes that the game doesn't "really" start until you've gotten to 100 Backflips.

 

But having achieved that first goal, people look to the game to set more of them.  Whereas in the past the players took pride for executing stylish backflips or improbable ones, the backflip counter only cares about how many backflips you've done.  So someone figures out the quickest-executing backflip, the easiest backflip to repeat over and over, and that becomes 'the backflip.'  Doing any other kind of backflip is less optimal to unlocking the 'really fun' backflips.

 

Of course since there's always another tier of backflipping ahead, all that players really care about is the fastest Backflip 2 they can execute.  And eventually, they complain that the new, highest-tier backflips are too different (too easy, too hard, too awkward, too simple) from the lower-tier backflips...

 

Progression undoubtedly keeps people playing.  But it also keeps them from having fun, because they're always delaying the behaviors that would allow them to enjoy the game until they've "finished" the progression.  And if they ever do finish it, the realization that they in fact have not been having fun the entire time they were playing the game comes down like a ton of bricks.

 

I, personally, am having fun with Warframe, and part of that is intentionally deprioritizing the progression mechanics.  I love the fact that the developers are making bold, sometimes foolish decisions with it, and I hope that they never learn to lean too heavily on sequential end-gaming.  We need more flOw.

[merryfistmas]

This game needs a skill sink.

 

I need to skillfully be able to complete a challenge and be more effective then someone spamming 4.

 

It's the gameplay that dries up due to the abilities.

Hayden speaks wisdom again. It's sad really that the most effective way to complete missions is to spam 4. Trying to use ingenuity to find different, fun uses for abilities actually makes the game harder since you're not spamming 4.

Edited September 13, 2013 by merryfistmas

[litlit]

Some good ideas in this thread regarding fun, engagement, and depth. I made a giant post in the recent community hot topics thread. I think it fits this thread very well, specifically regarding the lack of depth in Warframe.

 

Look at the way the enemies are designed, from the perspective of a player in-game. Tons of small enemies with the occasional heavy unit that always know where you are and track you perfectly regardless of your movement. They are always bullet-sponge swarms that always act the same way. Low-level enemies are a serious threat to newer players regardless of their skill at FPS games, but become trivially easy as they farm better mods. As enemy level scales upwards, they become so powerful that they cannot be beaten by even the most skilled players with the best mods and equipment unless players manipulate the game mechanics to effectively grant themselves godmode.

 

This leads to a bizarre dichotomy of difficulty: the game is either incredibly difficult, or trivially easy. If you don't have the right mods, the game is punishingly hard. If you don't bring a Frost to a high level Corpus defense past wave 20, it's punishingly hard. Yet, if you bring Vauban and Frost with energy siphon to a Grineer defense, you can stay as long as you want -- it's easy, the only "difficulty" being how long you can tolerate the monotony. Even at extremely high levels, the game is trivially easy if you bring a decent setup.

Combined with the amount of grind players face, this means the most efficient playstyles, and therefore the ones that players naturally gravitate towards, are:
1) Rushing through non-defense missions for blueprints, void rewards, alert rewards, nightmare rewards, or to get to a farming node (unlock nightmare, boss nodes, mobile defense nodes, etc)
2) In defense and mobile defense, killing large numbers of enemies as fast as possible by pressing 4
3) In defense and mobile defense with enemies of sufficiently high level, killing large numbers of enemies as fast as possible by disabling them indefinitely with frame abilities and killing them with armor-ignoring weapons

The game boils down to "take no damage and kill as fast as possible" while leaving only a very few methods of doing so available to players. Furthermore, these methods are either incredibly repetitive, easy, and boring, or they are exploits (which often go unreported when discovered because the grind would be even more tedious without them). Pressing 3 with Frost is the same whether enemies are level 10 Corpus or level 200 Grineer. Same with Banshee 2, Nova 2&4, Saryn 1, Vauban 4. Use an ability that grants your squad immunity or allows your squad to kill more efficiently, shoot enemies, repeat.

There's no room for stuff like parkour, melee, or stealth -- players do those things for fun, but through reward mechanics the game makes it very clear that doing those detracts from your efficiency. Why use stealth at all? Just run to the exit. Why use parkour? It doesn't help you evade enemy fire. Why even bother moving around? You're in a Snowglobe, just stay still and shoot enemies as they come close so the loot's in one place. Why use melee instead of the Acrid? That level 130 Heavy Gunner has a lot of HP, and there's 10 others you need to kill to get to the next wave.

Enemies gain stats so bloated that it makes them impossible to deal with unless they can be disabled permanently, yet their AI is too simplistic to offer a true challenge that provides players with a real sense of engagement.

To top it all off, players possess abilities so powerful that I honestly can't think of anything that could be done to provide an engaging challenge, unless these abilities are radically reworked. It doesn't matter how "smart" or well-programmed the AI is when Frost can press 3 and make the whole squad immune to damage, or Vauban can keep them all permanently disabled with Vortex. Same thing applies to lower-level enemies, who are easily disposed of with the press of a button.

 

Again, I'm not sure what should be done. It's easy to say that enemies should be reworked to be challenging in a way that doesn't solely depend on gaining stats as they level, and that Warframe abilities should be changed so that they don't function as an "I win" button, mesh well with other players using their abilities, all while keeping them looking cool and not making them feel weak. But what does this mean in terms of how the game should be and what needs to happen to get it there?

 

Despite that uncertainty, the fact remains that Warframe's gameplay needs to have more depth: a greater variety of approaches to problems presented to players in-game, that look and feel meaningful. Depth will draw in new players and keep them interested despite all the grinding, and it ensures players continue to play longer because variety that feels meaningful counteracts burnout. Retaining players and drawing in more new ones means more plat purchases and better advertising through word-of-mouth and gameplay streaming.

 

The core gameplay of Warframe offers so much potential -- a four-player co-op experience, a good level of immersion due to an aesthetic and atmosphere that are very well-made, and the freedom of movement combined with the level of control offered to players is almost exhilarating. But as Warframe currently exists, its gameplay and reward mechanics discourage players from creatively and freely exploring the combat and movement mechanics, and instead encourage players to adopt a hyper-efficient approach to deal with the grind. (Once again I'll point out that players do play in ways that aren't min-maxed grinding, but when we do, we do so with constant reminders that we are being less efficient than we could otherwise be.)

 

Grinding isn't inherently a bad thing. But it needs to be disguised better, it needs to be made more fun and engaging, there needs to be a variety of ways to do it, and, most of all, the game's reward mechanics shouldn't make players feel like they need to play a different way.

 

TLDR

 

Thoughts?

Edited September 13, 2013 by litlit