Multishot vs. Scattershot (Multishot glitch)

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

28 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

TBF, I think the only mod aside from multishot that's really that mandatory is the Serration family. Unfortunately, even with the idea of removing enemy scaling and reworking other things to accommodate that (which would be interesting and I'd like to see more details), the goal is to kill as many things as fast as possible. Up until people can one-shot everything, damage helps accomplish that. And flat damage mods like Serration are really good at boosting damage.

That said, giving a similar treatment as this thread to the Serration family could be one possible solution. E.g., two mods, both increasing damage across the board, but one increases physical damage more and the other focuses on elemental damage. Not that your idea wouldn't work or is bad, but a split like that could be an effective change in the interim.

Spitballing on that one, though. I've come up with more than enough dumb ideas in my short time on these forums lol.

The biggest obstacle to changing multishot according to the OP is the armor mechanic. Removing level scaling is only to make content old & new with there respective patches, hotfixes, & expansions easier to test, calculate, & balance, as well as open up new playstyles besides "kill fast & tank hard".

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Grimmstyler]

@(PS4)VagueWisdomVagueWisdom

@Tyreaus

I'll say the Topic I posted in the previous reply is related to the change of Multi-Shot, because, Multi-Shot doesn't need to be changed.. Its been in the game untouched long enough.. It works well.

What's the purpose of changing Multi-Shot?

It's most likely due to Damage or Status purposes..  Why is DE stuck on having 1 difficulty in Warframe when people want more? (That's the question) (Example scaling enemy levels.. Bringing out Exiimus Enemies..)

Yes that extra Projectile gives you additional Damage and a second chance at a Status Proc.. 1 might use Multi-Shot for [Condition Overload] on single projectile weapons. Multi-Shot is effective in more difficult gameplay..

A lot of people already invested thier Time, Forma, Kuva or Platinum in Rivens. Why compromise player loyalty by changing Multi-Shot, when you can just add more difficult modes? (Remember the enemies Infinitely Scale)

Why change the Mod/Damage system when it gives players Glorification to play in more difficult modes?

 

More difficult modes promotes:

-aquiring better Mods/Rivens

-Have better Matchmaking (anything is subject to leeching/trolling tho)

-Easier levels to not make the game so hard for players not experience the Story..

-Possibly more i can't think of the top of my head..

 

 

But this..

A lot of people already invested thier Time, Forma, Kuva or Platinum in Rivens.

This is the main reason why DE shouldn't change Multi-Shot..

Edited December 6, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

The biggest obstacle to changing multishot according to the OP is the armor mechanic. Removing level scaling is only to make content old & new with there respective patches, hotfixes, & expansions easier to test, calculate, & balance, as well as open up new playstyles besides "kill fast & tank hard".

Armour is generally problematic regardless, and a good first step could be to restrict armour scaling in some way, then use that as a footstool to fuss around with other scaling. Though if armour is capped in some way, I kind of have to wonder whether removing other forms of scaling is as necessary - but that's likely one of those things that could be sorted out as other changes get made.

30 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

What's the purpose of changing Multi-Shot?

Because, like Serration et al, every worthwhile build uses it. Not even a variation thereof, like the 90 and 60/60 elemental mods.

30 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Its been in the game untouched long enough.. It works well.

A question: what counts as "working well" and "not working well"? What's the criteria?

30 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

A lot of people already invested thier Time, Forma, Kuva or Platinum in Rivens.

Rivens which, as said before, could always be grandfathered in. And as said before, the impact is much less than you're making it out to be. I wager, if people were given Scattershot mods to complement their Multishot mods, both with the same polarity, the vast majority of weapons wouldn't need to be repolarized: they'd slot one or the other and be just dandy or be able to slot something like a crit mod instead.

Moreover, regarding the time investment argument: People invested time into Pax Seeker when it had the damage multiplication glitch. Does that mean it shouldn't have been fixed? If the answer to that is "no, it should have been fixed", then why should it have been fixed despite the time investment?

Edited December 6, 2018 by Tyreaus

[Grimmstyler]

9 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

A question: what counts as "working well" and "not working well"? What's the criteria?

Why wouldn't a mod that gives you a 2nd or more Projectile that adds Status Chance, Damage and Critical Damage not work well in a difficult environment?

For example.. When you look at Critical Damage in a weapon with (example) 100% Critical Chance.... What's better? X1 or x2? The same logic can be applied to Multishot..

16 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Moreover, regarding the time investment argument: People invested time into Pax Seeker when it had the damage multiplication glitch. Does that mean it shouldn't have been fixed? If the answer to that is "no, it should have been fixed", then why should it have been fixed despite the time investment?

That was more or less a Calculation, Script, Coding Error on DE's end that was addressed fairly quick.. An error? Go figure..

[Pax Seeker] hasn't been around for Years or Months. The mechanics of it can be adjusted to an existing system. 

If Multishot was to change it should have been done the same time Rivens were released. Again, that represents Unproffesional game Development. People already invested thier Time and such into this existing system.Anything that is released is reviewed by DE before it's released.. (which seems they're not doing a very good job at if players are reporting these issues in Forums)

 

You know.. What do i expect? It's just a game I have no control over it's development. Either I'll play it or i won't.

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

Why wouldn't a mod that gives you a 2nd or more Projectile that adds Status Chance, Damage and Critical Damage not work well in a difficult environment?

For example.. When you look at Critical Damage in a weapon with (example) 100% Critical Chance.... What's better? X1 or x2? The same logic can be applied to Multishot..

That does not answer the quoted question.

13 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

That was more or less a Calculation, Script, Coding Error on DE's end that was addressed fairly quick.. An error? Go figure.. [snip]

So according to your argument, unless it is a programmatic error addressed shortly after its inception (within ~1 month), it should not be changed. Which means Parkour 1.0 should never have been replaced, Damage 2.0 should never have been implemented, and the game should have stayed in its generally initial state: those changes were not only not programmatic errors (they were design choices) but were also around for a relatively prolonged period of time that allowed people to invest time. See, for example, coptering.

Is that an argument you would endorse? If not, then your reasoning for rejecting a change to multishot is flawed.

21 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

You know.. What do i expect? It's just a game I have no control over it's development. Either I'll play it or i won't.

Important thing to note is that DE highly values player feedback. You may not have a great deal of individual control, but your voice can make a difference.

Adopt apathy at your leisure, however. I'm not the boss of you.

[Grimmstyler]

6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That does not answer the quoted question.

So according to your argument, unless it is a programmatic error addressed shortly after its inception (within ~1 month), it should not be changed. Which means Parkour 1.0 should never have been replaced, Damage 2.0 should never have been implemented, and the game should have stayed in its generally initial state: those changes were not only not programmatic errors (they were design choices) but were also around for a relatively prolonged period of time that allowed people to invest time. See, for example, coptering.

Is that an argument you would endorse? If not, then your reasoning for rejecting a change to multishot is flawed.

Important thing to note is that DE highly values player feedback. You may not have a great deal of individual control, but your voice can make a difference.

Adopt apathy at your leisure, however. I'm not the boss of you.

I'll say simply that i don't agree with this change.

 

The reason why i don't agree are, but not limited to:

- Rivens already rolled

- + or - Fire Rate already increases your Projectile Spread/Reduces Accuracy

-[Heavy Calibur] increases your Projectile Spread/Reduces Acuuracy

-It cost more Ammo, in which some weapons don't have a large Ammo pool

- + Multishot on a weapon and - Ammo Capacity would be an even worse Riven Roll than it is (like any other Riven you Roll 100 times)

-Less Status or Damage could be put on a ranged enemy (any enemy with a gun.. With that said, you might as well just Melee your way thru the game or shoot enemies point blank)

-Less effective against Higher Level enemies due to miss shots (don't forget ammo)

-It reduces Accuracy, (even on weapons with pinpoint accuracy)

-Carrier would be most used because of [Ammo Case]

-Just run and shoot kill everything with Projectile Spread... = [Heavy Calibur], +/- Fire Rate and Multishot.. (it would look dumb.. Then, Oops, im out of ammo switch to Melee (it forces Melee)

-And last but not least, I don't have a Googly Eyes Cosmetic for my Warframe to look like it's tracking the Projectiles 😃

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Ordis) - "Alright.. Now make every Shot Count"

(Me) - "I will"

 

I have my reasons.. I'm sure there may be more too.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[Grimmstyler]

Multishot Rework 😃

 

[Tyreaus]

6 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

I'll say simply that i don't agree with this change.

 

The reason why i don't agree are

Summarized by "I don't like nerfs". Setting aside the fact that, in no particular order:

6 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

-It reduces Accuracy, (even on weapons with pinpoint accuracy)

OP and I already talked about how it would either barely or not at all affect weapons with perfect accuracy due to the formula OP is proposing (which is in the first post),

6 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

- + Multishot on a weapon and - Ammo Capacity would be an even worse Riven Roll than it is (like any other Riven you Roll 100 times)

The game isn't balanced around Rivens,

6 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

-Less effective against Higher Level enemies due to miss shots (don't forget ammo)

Multishot and Scattershot are proposed as separate things, and

6 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

-Carrier would be most used because of [Ammo Case]

-Just run and shoot kill everything with Projectile Spread... = [Heavy Calibur], +/- Fire Rate and Multishot.. (it would look dumb.. Then, Oops, im out of ammo switch to Melee (it forces Melee)

These aren't new things because bullet hoses need a source of ammunition regardless of multishot exacerbating things.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On 2018-12-06 at 6:44 AM, Grimmstyler said:

I'll say simply that i don't agree with this change.

The reason why i don't agree are, but not limited to:

1. Rivens already rolled
2. + or - Fire Rate already increases your Projectile Spread/Reduces Accuracy
3. [Heavy Calibur] increases your Projectile Spread/Reduces Acuuracy
4. It cost more Ammo, in which some weapons don't have a large Ammo pool
5. + Multishot on a weapon and - Ammo Capacity would be an even worse Riven Roll than it is (like any other Riven you Roll 100 times)
6. Less Status or Damage could be put on a ranged enemy (any enemy with a gun.. With that said, you might as well just Melee your way thru the game or shoot enemies point blank)
7. Less effective against Higher Level enemies due to miss shots (don't forget ammo)
8. It reduces Accuracy, (even on weapons with pinpoint accuracy)
9. Carrier would be most used because of [Ammo Case]
10. Just run and shoot kill everything with Projectile Spread... = [Heavy Calibur], +/- Fire Rate and Multishot.. (it would look dumb.. Then, Oops, im out of ammo switch to Melee (it forces Melee)
11. And last but not least, I don't have a Googly Eyes Cosmetic for my Warframe to look like it's tracking the Projectiles 😃

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have my reasons.. I'm sure there may be more too.

1. Tyreaus has already suggested grandfathering rivens multiple times. As he pointed out, the game isn't balanced around rivens. Given the suggested changes, any riven that rolls multishot or scattershot could be coded such that they >can't have a negative stat<, since both of those stats would already have an innate negative (if their negative can be considered meaningful enough in the first place given how I described the suggested changes). IMO, as it currently stands, the riven system isn't even a good system in itself, though better than when it was first introduced. The riven system needs more tweaking regardless.
2. Multishot would be a strange hybrid of fire-rate & mag capacity. I never stated that multishot would reduce accuracy, only cost more ammo. Scattershot on the other hand would be most similar to the Vicious Spread corrupted mod (though Vicious Spread increases damage, not projectile number), since it actually would decrease accuracy. Multishot would be more accurate, & scattershot would be more ammo efficient.
3. Heavy Caliber does not offer a multishot or scattershot stat. Furthermore, IMO, Heavy Caliber's negative should be more recoil instead of less accuracy.
4. Refer back to point 2. Bullet hoses were always bad without Carrier, Ammo Mutation, &/or Ammo Scavenger.
5. Refer back to point 1.
6. The suggested changes do not affect the ability of multishot to increase status procs. Scattershot would be equally effective if close enough to the target.
7. Refer back to point 2. Ammo cost from multishot wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as fire-rate, since it maintains accuracy, though a singular miss could cost more than a single miss frome fire-rate mods. That's true, except fire-rate misses can happen more rapidly & full-auto makes single & burst fire difficult. Increased spread from scattershot would barely affect the optimal range given the proposed mechanism/formula that increases spread, which I described in the OP.
8. For pinpoint weapons, barely, if at all.
9. Carrier was always the most used sentient throughout the Warframe community. Most used before Univac, & is still most used now.
10. As I discussed with Tyreaus, a melee user would likely be fine with huge spread &/or low accuracy, so long as the weapon can master blast beyond lvl200. A Heavy Cal, multishot, scattershot build would actually be quite a wonder given that.
11. Tracking projectiles is something only Buzlok does.

You could not possibly have any more reasons. Many of the reasons you listed are just due to you misunderstanding or outright ignoring the posts between me & Tyreaus.

I think you're overreacting & much too energetic about this.

Edited December 7, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

22 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Armour is generally problematic regardless, and a good first step could be to restrict armour scaling in some way, then use that as a footstool to fuss around with other scaling. Though if armour is capped in some way, I kind of have to wonder whether removing other forms of scaling is as necessary - but that's likely one of those things that could be sorted out as other changes get made.

I thought perhaps armor could be reworked so that it could actively be damaged through other methods besides Corrosive. If that were possible, a reduction may not even be necessary, much less a cap. I have some complicated damage formulas, caveats, & exceptions to go with that as well.

Edited December 7, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Tyreaus]

11 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

I thought perhaps armor could be reworked so that it could actively be damaged through other methods besides Corrosive. If that were possible, a reduction may not even be necessary, much less a cap. I have some complicated damage formulas, caveats, & exceptions to go with that as well.

I think it's a question of effort versus payoff. More thorough changes might be more interesting (e.g. making armour a separate health meter like in Overwatch) but for what's necessary, something simple like a cap could do the same thing. Partly depends on Damage 3.0 too, I suppose.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

29 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I think it's a question of effort versus payoff. More thorough changes might be more interesting (e.g. making armour a separate health meter like in Overwatch) but for what's necessary, something simple like a cap could do the same thing. Partly depends on Damage 3.0 too, I suppose.

Well, if we're talking what's necessary (I assume you mean a temporary band-aid fix), a reduction, such as toning down the exponential constant in the level scaling formula specifically for armor, is more appropriate than a cap. As for my idea, it's meant to expand/refine the damage system.

Separating armor into its own gauge would be part of the rework for allowing more sources of damage. Yes. Where shields are set to the left as an extension, armor would be nested above & parallel to health.

Edited December 7, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Well, if we're talking what's necessary (I assume you mean a temporary band-aid fix), a reduction, such as toning down the exponential constant in the level scaling formula specifically for armor, is more appropriate than a cap. As for my idea, it's meant to expand/refine the damage system.

Separating armor into its own gauge would be part of the rework for allowing more sources of damage. Yes. Where shields are set to the left as an extension, armor would be nested above & parallel to health.

I don't mean to be hijacking this thread too much since we should be staying on the multishot / scattershot topic, but do you have a thread or something to flesh out these ideas? Would like to check it out.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I don't mean to be hijacking this thread too much since we should be staying on the multishot / scattershot topic, but do you have a thread or something to flesh out these ideas? Would like to check it out.

I think I'll do one soon. I'm about to work on another Stug topic though. XP

I wouldn't worry too much. Armor is a fair obstacle for this situation (or any situation for that matter). This thread has few participants anyway.

[NeopetsMaster4432]

The Multishot and Scattershot changes just seem like nerfs to a player's ammo efficiency and damage. 

Ammo efficiency is already a horrible mess as it is. There are some guns that vastly out perform others while being significantly more efficient, just as there are a bunch of guns that chew through ammo and don't have much to show for it. I personally think we'd need an extensive rework or rebalance of each individual weapon's ammo consumption before the Multishot change could possibly be anything but detrimental to this game's health.
Could also make [Ammo Case] available to all robotic companions too. :3

Scattershot sounds very cut and dry, like something that would be mandatory on shotguns, and terrible on anything at mid-long range. For example, I think the accuracy penalty on the current [Heavy Caliber] is fair on some weapons.(although it does next to nothing on too many of them) Missing a shot every now and again is alright because the damage increase makes up for it, so the mod slot isn't wasted.
Won't know for sure until we see the numbers, but I fear Scattershot would be too detrimental on a majority of weapons, causing more of a DPS decrease than increase due to missed shots.

It's possible to plan and play around having a lower weapon damage, but adding in RNG to whether a shot hits the target or not sounds rather frustrating. So unless the accuracy penalty numbers are small enough to be negligible at long ranges, I don't think that I'd use them on anything other than launchers or shotguns~ 😛

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

8 hours ago, NeopetsMaster4432 said:

The Multishot and Scattershot changes just seem like nerfs to a player's ammo efficiency and damage. 

Ammo efficiency is already a horrible mess as it is. There are some guns that vastly out perform others while being significantly more efficient, just as there are a bunch of guns that chew through ammo and don't have much to show for it. I personally think we'd need an extensive rework or rebalance of each individual weapon's ammo consumption before the Multishot change could possibly be anything but detrimental to this game's health.
Could also make [Ammo Case] available to all robotic companions too. :3

Scattershot sounds very cut and dry, like something that would be mandatory on shotguns, and terrible on anything at mid-long range. For example, I think the accuracy penalty on the current [Heavy Caliber] is fair on some weapons.(although it does next to nothing on too many of them) Missing a shot every now and again is alright because the damage increase makes up for it, so the mod slot isn't wasted.
Won't know for sure until we see the numbers, but I fear Scattershot would be too detrimental on a majority of weapons, causing more of a DPS decrease than increase due to missed shots.

It's possible to plan and play around having a lower weapon damage, but adding in RNG to whether a shot hits the target or not sounds rather frustrating. So unless the accuracy penalty numbers are small enough to be negligible at long ranges, I don't think that I'd use them on anything other than launchers or shotguns~ 😛

Ya, going by the changes, Multishot would exacerbate ammo consumption on bullet hoses. Scattershot reduces accuracy. Multishot reduces ammo economy. Yes, Scattershot would be very similar to Heavy Caliber, Vicious Spread, & Magnum Force, with extra projectiles being the mechanism of increased damage as opposed to a flat buff to damage value directly. Extra projectiles in this case still contribute to extra status procs, so in a way it's still superior to those mods. Though, I believe Heavy Caliber & Magnum Force should have their downside changed to extra recoil, as allowing them to maintain accuracy would go a long way in whether players consider them (slow firing marksman type players might like that).

DE already gave us Univac (though only for sentinels). I'm fairly pessimistic of the prospect that is "Uni-ammo".

To solve the ammo problem with bullet hoses, we have to adopt balance logic, where all the traits of a weapon exist on a balance scale. Fire-rate is a double-edged sword, increasing DPS & SPS (status per second), but reducing ammo efficiency & increasing accumulative recoil. The issue a lot of balance checks run into is that when looking at fire-rate, it is viewed as a solely good trait, but that is false. The result is that too many negative traits are applied than necessary to balance out that positive that is viewed as better than it really is. Those extra negatives usually include low bullet damage, low range (usually as early &/or fast fall-off in this case), & oddly enough, even more recoil. Buffing any of those existing negatives would go a long way in helping our beloved BRRRT guns.

One thing that could help as a starter is making sure ammo conversion returns more ammo for such weapons, if it doesn't already (it's been a while since I used the Grakata-class guns).

Edited December 11, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom