Forma'd Warframes/weapons Experience To Count Towards Mastery Rank

[TaTooKa]

I opened a thread about this in General Discussion, but it quickly turned into a flamewar by those who think it's a bad idea and those who don't, and the pro's and con's of a possible implementation weren't even discussed. A moderator closed the thread and suggested I opened this thread in Gameplay Feedback in order to get a proper response, so here we are.

 

quoting myself:
 

Why is it that when you apply a Forma to a frame or weapon and you level it up again, this experience doesn't add up to your account rank ?

is this a choice by design, or is it an side effect / bug ? If its designed this way, what's the purpose or idea behind the decision ?

 

Personally, I'd like to be able to re-level a warframe/weapon I have fun playing with, without feeling I'm "wasting my time" because I should be unlocking other frames/weapons just to gain Rank.

 

I know this is not the best business model for DE since this allows users to potentially gain rank without buying more warframe/weapon slots, but still it doesn't sound that bad on paper. 

 

The "mastery rank factor" still has its meaning, though. If I have two or three warframes only, but all of them have lots of Forma applied, that means I've played a lot and my arsenal is very powerful because of mod level / capacity.

 

In my opinion, Mastery should reflect both diversity in multiple tools (lots of weapons unlocked) and specialization in less but stronger tools (few but uber-forma'd weapons).

 

The argument that was mostly used by those in the community who were against this was that "mastery" is the action of unlocking a new weapon and level it up to level 30. Those in favor of the idea argued that if a forma is applied, having to re-level it up to 30 still means to "master" it (by being a slightly different, more powerful weapon).

 

apart from literal definitions, this mechanic affects the fact of allowing players to increase Mastery Rank without having to use stuff that they don't care about or don't have fun with.

 

In practice I believe most players will still want to change their warframe or weapons, eventually, out of boredom or curiosity. The difference is that there is no in-game mechanic forcing you, you do it because you choose to.

 

As a suggestion to make both sides happy, the re-mastering of a warframe/weapon by Forma could give half the exp towards Mastery Rank. Not exactly the best solution in my opinion, but better than nothing.

[MeteorKing]

It's not an oversight/bug, it's working as intended.  Same weapon/frame, same xp pool.  You don't get bonus xp because you got lucky with forma drops, or really like a particular weapon.  Branching out and learning the tools of war is what gains the Tenno more expertiseon the battlefield. While I could see an argument for becoming "attuned" to a weapon/frame (my take on what xp for releveling something would be), I disagree with it.

[MueR]

While I agree that a forma'ed weapon or frame should count towards mastery rank, I also agree with the original position that it's intended to diversify. In my opinion, I think (so I agree with OP) that it should count towards mastery, but only at half points. That way, you're not "wasting" points, but you also still encourage people to try new weapons.

Edited September 11, 2013 by MueR

[MeteorKing]

While I agree that a forma'ed weapon or frame should count towards mastery rank, I also agree with the original position that it's intended to diversify. In my opinion, I think (so I agree with OP) that it should count towards mastery, but only at half points. That way, you're not "wasting" points, but you also still encourage people to try new weapons.

Perhaps a continuing decay?  1/2 then 1/4 then 1/8?

[MueR]

For a frame, maybe 1/4 minimum. At a weapon, you're really starting to get into the low numbers. At 1/4, you're getting a total of 750 points for a weapon. That's a bit low for the time required to level it in my opinion.

[MeteorKing]

For a frame, maybe 1/4 minimum. At a weapon, you're really starting to get into the low numbers. At 1/4, you're getting a total of 750 points for a weapon. That's a bit low for the time required to level it in my opinion.

Compared to 0?

[MueR]

Fair point.

[GSGregory]

I will agree to the 1/2, 1/4 ect. Mastery is supposed to show the relative power/capability/skill of the player and a weapon with forma has is going to be more powerful.

[dzxbeast]

if you use lots of different warframes/weapons you become a "master of war"

if you use one warframe/weapon extensively you become a specialist of that warframe/weapon.

 

while a specialist is stronger in his field, a master is stronger overall.

 

so no, releveling your weapon should not get you extra mastery exp. you could get something extra for your effort, but it should be near trivial, so that it does not punish those less fortunate with forma drops(cause they are already being punished - less forma drops)

[Zakalwe]

You have not mastered a weapon fully if you can forma it further, so lore pedants have no leg to stand on there.

Adding A forma = mastering your weapon further, in the most basic definition.

 

This idea is in no way limited by the rules of lore.

[notionphil]

I think its working as intended, AND working as it should. DE wants you to use multiple weapons/frames not just for $$ but also because players are more likely to enjoy and get into a game if they explore more of the games content.

 

Sticking to a single loadout may be fun for you NOW, because you've already found your loadout. But to allow a noob to stick to a single loadout, which might not match their desired playstyle, but they don't know it bc "why switch i get mastery from this weapon" is game longevity suicide.

 

and here is a post about what using already maxed/formad gear should give you INSTEAD of mastery.

 

Harmony - The Skill-Based Opposite of Mastery

[MeteorKing]

You have not mastered a weapon fully if you can forma it further, so lore pedants have no leg to stand on there.

Adding A forma = mastering your weapon further, in the most basic definition.

 

This idea is in no way limited by the rules of lore.

I fail to see how putting things onto your weapon means you are further mastering it.

 

I put a horn on my bicycle, I'M ABLE TO BE BETTER AT RIDING MY BIKE NOW!

Edited September 11, 2013 by MeteorKing

[Zakalwe]

I fail to see how putting things onto your weapon means you are further mastering it.

 

I put a horn on my bicycle, I'M ABLE TO BE BETTER AT RIDING MY BIKE NOW!

 

 

Levelling the weapon to begin with is just "putting things on it". 

Putting mods on your weapon represent not only physical attachments like scope enchantments or bullet types, but actual learnt skills like reloading faster.

Adding forma your weapon getting better, which represents you getting better with it.

Mastering your weapon further = getting better with it.

 

It would easily fit with any kind of lore.

[Bakim0n0]

Mastery rank really doesn't mean much of anything anyways...

[RoboDoge]

inb4 another flamewar.

 

This is easily exploted, i will say only that.

 

And this thread is to long, so many words....my eyes hurt.

[notionphil]

inb4 another flamewar.

 

This is easily exploted, i will say only that.

 

And this thread is to long, so many words....my eyes hurt.

 

yeah this is one of those things that simply isnt going to change for good reason, but a camp of people keep 'coming up' with the great idea to get moar stuff while doing less.

[Zakalwe]

yeah this is one of those things that simply isnt going to change for good reason, but a camp of people keep 'coming up' with the great idea to get moar stuff while doing less.

 

 you do realise that many people won't actually use the weaponry they're levelling and just carry it for the mastery rank? I really don't think they're doing any less.

Still, I think forcing us to levelling everything is better as it promotes players to try all the weaponry. The idea that the concept won't fit lore or that somehow players who level every weapon are doing more is a little silly though, it's all just grind...

[psyanide]

if you use lots of different warframes/weapons you become a "master of war"

if you use one warframe/weapon extensively you become a specialist of that warframe/weapon.

 

while a specialist is stronger in his field, a master is stronger overall.

 

so no, releveling your weapon should not get you extra mastery exp. you could get something extra for your effort, but it should be near trivial, so that it does not punish those less fortunate with forma drops(cause they are already being punished - less forma drops)

 

Do you even know what the term 'affinity' means? Seriously, look it up.

 

Your 'Master of War' is a Jack of all Trades, master of bugger all.

 

I get it - a person who gets a lucky Forma drop is somehow 'luckier' and less deserving than someone who has the time in their life to farm all the weapons and Frames? I suppose someone who PAYS for Forma with actual money (because usually they have a job, so less time, more money...) shouldn't have any access to your elitist Mastery Exp either if they don't have the time to power level a bunch of useless crap that they DO NOT ENJOY USING? Yeah, let's force everyone to do that. 

 

What is the 'reward' for more mastery apart from... BEING ABLE TO TRY OUT NEW WEAPONS AND FRAMES!!!???

 

In what world does THAT affect your life OR your game?

 

You nay-sayers are selfish pricks with too much time on your hands. Report me if you feel like it, couldn't give less of a damn because I am tired of this pervading attitude and I am calling you out on your bullS#&$.

 

Get real, ffs.

Edited September 11, 2013 by psyanide

[MeteorKing]

Levelling the weapon to begin with is just "putting things on it". 

Putting mods on your weapon represent not only physical attachments like scope enchantments or bullet types, but actual learnt skills like reloading faster.

Adding forma your weapon getting better, which represents you getting better with it.

Mastering your weapon further = getting better with it.

 

It would easily fit with any kind of lore.

I'd say that leveling something from 0-30 is learning it.  Further than that, it's just adding things to the weapon itself.  That aspect has nothing to do with learning the weapon you use.  If you want to argue that the mods that affect the actual function of the gun are the learning process, then what differentiates the first time you're able to put those mods on from the second, third, and fourth times you're able to put those mods on?  Do you have amnesia in between each leveling process?

[Phatose]

Having an in-game mechanic to force you to change to other weapons is perfectly acceptable.

 

The claim "You shouldn't have to do things you don't think are fun" is a great sound-bite, but it's also completely and totally wrong.  Why?  Because I can declare "Only winning is fun for me", and if that claim was acceptable, I'm in instant god mode.  Or "Only getting rewards is fun for me" - and now the entire game is just a rewards screen.  It's just flat out wrong.

[Archistopheles]

I'm sorry that you don't enjoy the idea of leveling weapons/frames that you're not interested in, but that's what Mastery is. They based it on modern and historical martial artists who attained the rank of master through a lifetime of learning not only one or two weapons and forms of martial arts, but a variety.

 

Look at the Shao Lin Monks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin_Kung_Fu They have a bewildering number of fighting styles that each take years to master.

 

That's the essence Warframe is trying to capture with it's Mastery system.

[Zakalwe]

I'd say that leveling something from 0-30 is learning it.  Further than that, it's just adding things to the weapon itself.  

 

Why is level 30 the cap though? Seems arbitrary, entirely. Using loginc, the weapon is not mastered because it can still be levelled with forma.

 

Within the confines of the game, sure ,1-30 can be fine for mastery. But using the words in their basic definitions to describe forma application fits the term too.

 

This is all pedantic bickering anyway so entirely pointless, but you seem to be denying some pretty basic logic here.

[Zakalwe]

Having an in-game mechanic to force you to change to other weapons is perfectly acceptable.

 

The claim "You shouldn't have to do things you don't think are fun" is a great sound-bite, but it's also completely and totally wrong.  Why?  Because I can declare "Only winning is fun for me", and if that claim was acceptable, I'm in instant god mode.  Or "Only getting rewards is fun for me" - and now the entire game is just a rewards screen.  It's just flat out wrong.

I wouldn't say that. I'd say it was a design choice, not a "better way" or "right". 

It's just the way that DE have decided to do it, but that doesn't mean levelling mastery in a different way would be wrong. Ultimately, this comes down to player preference.

 

Which is all beside the point unless DE decide to change the mastery system.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Zakalwe

[MeteorKing]

Why is level 30 the cap though? Seems arbitrary, entirely. Using loginc, the weapon is not mastered because it can still be levelled with forma.

 

Within the confines of the game, sure ,1-30 can be fine for mastery. But using the words in their basic definitions to describe forma application fits the term too.

 

This is all pedantic bickering anyway so entirely pointless, but you seem to be denying some pretty basic logic here.

I think you're misunderstanding what the forma is.  It's another item applied to the weapon that allows it to be further moded.  You seem to have the idea that when you add a forma it magically unlocks some new hidden capabilities of the weapon.  That may or may not be the case, but that is not the choice I have made, and due to how the current mastery system works, I would say that I am in the right.

 

You seem to be rather opinionated on a pointless pedantic pissing match, and I'd really like to see what logic it is that I'm missing.  If it's your logic of forma = more learning, then I got that loud and clear, I just disagree.

[TaTooKa]

Having an in-game mechanic to force you to change to other weapons is perfectly acceptable.

 

The claim "You shouldn't have to do things you don't think are fun" is a great sound-bite, but it's also completely and totally wrong.  Why?  Because I can declare "Only winning is fun for me", and if that claim was acceptable, I'm in instant god mode.  Or "Only getting rewards is fun for me" - and now the entire game is just a rewards screen.  It's just flat out wrong.

 

don't mistake difficulty with grinding.

 

I love difficulty, I think we all do. The most fun parts of this game are the most difficult: trying to survive 5 more waves in Defense to break your record (with no other reward than self satisfaction), rushing through hard missions on nightmare mode, avoiding traps while searching for secret areas in the void, etc.

Also when I unlock a new warframe or weapon I'm eager to try, taking it to level 30 is a good part of the game, I enjoy doing that.

 

Grind, on the other hand, is almost always boring. Blueprint farming in this game is terrible. Having to switch to less effective or boring weapons and warframes to continue improving kinda sucks. Especially when you rather be using the one you love/find most useful/have more fun with but will gain no progress by doing so.

Not because other games also base their design on grind just to add more hours of gameplay should we consider it to be a necessary evil.

Edited September 11, 2013 by TaTooKa