Stamina Changes Awful, Suggestion For Improvement

[Phrozty]

I'm just sad they took all the parkour out... I used to be flipping and jumping all over the place, and now I'm just sliding a bit until even the stamina from that is gone...

 

Definitely took the ninja out of space ninja.

[Blatantfool]

I was starting to wonder when you'd show up.

 

  It is actually extremely easy to summon me to a thread if you know the trick to it.

[Probta16]

Okay, quick test feedback:

 

Dodging uses too much stamina for what it gives. When I suggested 25% base Stamina usage per dodge, I was under the impression that the dodge would be basically total invulnerability and very fast movement (sort of like a 'flash step', if you're familiar with the term, or a very short range teleport if you aren't) for a brief period of time. The current dodge is somewhat better, but if it's going to stay this way it should be costed the same as jumping.

 

Sprint is much better, and the stamina regen delay now is much more responsive.

 

All in all, not everything I wanted but it's a good start.

I knew that i wasn't the only one.

[Acos]

Do i am the only one that think slightly faster is not faster enough?

I think most of us still envision a dodge which moves very quickly and has invincibility frames similar to what Vindictus' Lann, GW2, NWO, or really any MMO that is adopting active dodging. I would prefer the dodge work like that in this game too, but it's lower on my priority list. For the moment I'm just glad that running is a thing I can do again. 

[sewens]

Add a option to toggle between a jog, always-on run, and a walk then im sold on this.

[Baigan]

I very much like the OP's ideas. I will add my own (4th copy thread as I want feedback and want to help the discussion but SOO MANY STAMINA THEADS it's hard to find the right one).

 

Keep up the good ideas guys.

 

Stamina changes hit a few things from my testing and observation.

- There is a delay before you recharge

- Stamina drains faster or you have less of it

- Stamina recharges slower.

 

Now with how ungodly little mod space we have 32 Warframe Mods not counting the 4 Slots devoted to Warframe Powers and we only have 6 non-power based slots.

 

6/32 or we can only equip 18% of available mods. Now look at what we have.

- We have frames who without Focus/Stretch/Streamline/Flow cannot reliably keep powers running to do their DPS jobs.

- We have frames who without Rush and Marathon have no chance of keeping up without using Speedrunning Tactics.

- We have people who enjoy Melee but now cannot because doing so depletes stamina so they cannot keep up or move to new targets.

^ That is a big problem. One of the biggest joys of melee was spinning around and fliping over enemies causing chaos. With the new Stamina System, Melee Combat is broken and is punishing to use even for it's risk.

 

Melee is a risk, now since we have no Stamina we cannot keep moving in combat and then catch up to our teammates. Those who fight are left behind and those who don't rush ahead regardless. Now I will say this. I like the new system making Stamina important however the Charge Delay is too much because it breaks movement incredibly. Initiating Parkour takes approximately 25% Stamina, with a faster drain you can't Parkour as long some courses you can't do without Marathon.

 

Stamina should be important and should be a valued resource. However I think a few things can happen and make this so.

- faster recharge while in Melee Combat (sustained Melee) including Stamina boosts when enemy is slain.

- larger base stamina, like a lot larger.

- remove Marathon

- the closer to 0 Stamina you have the longer they delay before recharge

- the closer to 0 Stamina you have the slower the recharge (get's faster as it goes closer to maximum).

 

Now why would those help the system? Going part by part I will explain.

 

Faster Charge in Combat + Stamina Boost on Slain Enemy

The reason for this is to not punish Melee Combat by forcing them to expend all Stamina. Melee is an adrenaline rush and keeps your stamina high until you leave combat when you return to normal Stamina rates. This also means that killing the last enemy boosts your stamina to start running after your allies.

 

Larger Base Stamina + Remove Marathon

Why remove a Mod? Because it would break this suggestion at +150% Stamina. Basically make base stamina bars larger take Ember for example, a Mobile Caster Frame by what her abilities do (short range DoTS and she still needs more work). She has no movement skill and no movement boosts so she relies entirely on her stamina to keep moving. She has an 8 Stamina rating versus my Nyx who with Manticide (25%) has a rating of 10 meaning they both have a 8 base at rank 30. This is very little stamina overall and even with conservation, sliding and other Stamina saving moves I run out the second I start Melee combat (see suggestion 1). By raising the bases to a higher value and removing Marathon you get two effects.

- Manticide or other Stamina Helmets now have REAL value as Marathon is gone which by default Marathon would make an 8 Stamina Warframe into a 12 Stamina Warframe.

- Marathon will not be in the game as really it could only add Stamina which devalues the stat and devalues Stamina Helmets.

 

Percentage based Recharge/Rate Effects

This is the real change to stamina. With higher bases and and bonus's for Melee Combat, Stamina becomes a manageable resource for movement. The closer to 0 Stamina you are the longer it takes to start recharging due to exhaustion. The farther from 0 you take a break from the sooner it recharges. However, recharge rates while sliding are unchanged and unaffected. This is to prevent abuse of Slide-Recharging beyond what it does now. You actually have to stop moving to recharge quickly which means gun-combat will recharge stamina and proper Melee will too encouraging fighting breaks.

 

That is my take on the Stamina System and how it could be redone without reverting to the old system. Rushers will ALWAYS rush, there are ways and the best thing to do if your Sayrn/Rhino really is to use Vanguard or Hemlock for the speed boost or Cholora if the above Stamina Change is considered. Please let me know what you think, I feel I am on a right direction but I am but one person.

 

+1

 

Constructive criticism and a good analysis. :3

Edited September 15, 2013 by Baigan

[BlackBearStyle]

DE_Steve said in one of the livestreams he wanted "Stamina" to be important, because as of then, it had no real use.

 

Well, now it's still not important, it's just annoying. Why is it still not important?

 

Let's talk about the things Stamina lets you do:

 

1. Sprint (only useful for getting to places quickly)

 

2. Wallrun (doesn't take much Stamina for required wallruns)

 

3. Block (useless. FYI: Giving people mods that make a useless thing slightly less useless does not count as 'fixing' it)

 

4. Melee attack (why should this take Stamina at all?)

 

None of these are critical. Only one of these is important, and most of these are generally not very useful. So instead of making them more useful, apparently the correct way to make Stamina important is to make it annoying. Good mechanics, like I have said, are never annoying mechanics. Right now, Stamina is an annoying mechanic. That makes it a bad mechanic. Yes, yes, it slows down rushers. You know what else would slow down rushers? Increased rewards for kills, the rewards for mission completion being less frontloaded, and, oh yeah, more teamwork doors. That'd slow down 'rushing' while not reducing the game pace.

 

What I suggest is major in terms of gameplay alteration but hear me out, because I think it'd be infinitely better than what we have now.

 

I. Remove sprinting.

 

Instead, Tenno should all move at their current 'sprinting' speed all the time. This would make everyone faster, remove the issue of 'exploits' such as slide-canceling sprint for infinite sprint, and oh yeah, would make the game more like the fast-paced ninja game everyone came here for. Again, a question people should ask themselves is "why am I playing this instead of the billions of FPSes and TPSes out there?" My answer, and most people's answer, is "because I can play an awesome cyborg space ninja who flips out and kills people." Changes like this, reducing the mobility of your character, directly impact this. They make it more and more of a generic Shoot Mans FPS where you sprint to a box, shoot some guys, then sprint to another box, and repeat. If I wanted to play a generic Shoot Mans FPS, there are millions of choices. There are very few fast-paced arcadey shooters out there.

 

If Warframes don't 'sprint', and instead just run really fast all the time, the main problems with the current Stamina system are gone. "But what should the Sprint button do?" you might ask. Well, that's fairly simple. Call it "Ninja Run".

 

While Ninja Running, a Warframe will:

 

1. Automatically vault or otherwise negotiate obstacles in its path

 

2. Block incoming attacks automatically (so your 'block' button can now become your 'Sprint' button: If stationary, all you do is block incoming attacks). This also means you can remove the dedicated 'block' button, because now your block and your sprint are a similar function.

 

3. Maybe move slightly faster (say, 25% faster) than normal speed. This is optional.

 

4. Cancel into slides (via crouching), wallruns (via holding jump + Ninja Run), and other acrobatics.

 

As Im not feeling sprint being taken out, lowering the stamina cost of it while implementing some of those ideas should alleviate the stamina bar issue's. Also, Ninja Dodging should be looked into, my Ash would LOVE the idea.

[SeanC84]

I heartily agree with all suggestions save the first. Firing a weapon while moving at sprint speed would be pretty painful.

[Akrocius]

First off, gotta say I love a lot of the suggestions in this thread. Wanna throw in my 2 cents now.

I personally would like to see sprinting and normal melee attacks not tied to stamina. As it stands, trying to melee anything that doesn't run up to you (IE: Infested) just doesn't work. By the time I kill a few enemies, I don't have enough stamina to anything except head towards the next target at a brisk walk. Instead, stamina can be used for actions like charge / slide attacks and more advanced parkour like wall running. Also, it would free up stamina to be used for a more active damage mitigation playstyle based around dodging / blocking attacks compared to just soaking it with shields and armor then ducking behind a box to wait for your shields to recharge.

 

As it stands, I don't even have my block key bound at the moment, and my dodge key is only used to backflip in boredom when I'm riding an elevator. Having a more active damage mitigation playstyle would be fantastic. Marathon and Quick Rest (along with many of the new mods for blocking) share the same polarity as Redirection / Fast Deflection / Steel Fiber / Vitality, so it would be easy enough to swap mods without having to repolarize your frame. Also, blocking could mitigate a percentage of damage (lets say 40% baseline improvable with mods) with a lower stamina cost. Dodge could mitigate all damage (since you avoid getting hit in the first place) for a much higher stamina cost, somewhere around of 50% of your base stamina.

 

It also opens up the possibility for different frames to have different baseline stamina values, making them lean more towards active or passive mitigation, but not force them to be exclusively one or the other. Frames with lighter armor like Ember can have a higher stamina, giving her more incentive to go towards active mitigation, whereas Rhino and Frost can still stack shields / armor and HP to be bullet sponges. We can keep the recharge delay on stamina as well to make things similar to the shield recharge delay, making it a resource you need to manage during a large firefight.

 

Active mitigation would allow higher survivability for more skilled players who can manage it, whereas shields and HP would be the "safer" approach. It would also make Marathon / Quick Rest / many of the new mods worth equipping in place of other survivability mods.

[SocksMahoney]

If you want to make blocking less useless, perhaps instead of having it drain while you're blocking, do what they did in Dark Souls and reduce stamina when you're actually taking some kind of hit.

[dorkzillaa]

I don't think removing sprint key is really a good suggestion. It'll be a pain to use range attack all the time, especially with one-shot weapon like Sniper and Latron. I get that you are using pretty much the MGS:Rising example (Raiden awesomesauce sprint) but that will gear the game toward melee attack and the range attack is no longer integral part of the game.

 

While I simply dislike the stamina change, I think DE is trying to create a demand for stamina which is something we have been discussing for a long time since it's pretty much redundant due to fast regeneration rate. However, what they did wrong is the fact that they assigned too much stamina consumption rate for mobility action like sprinting and wallrunning while nothing much had been done to melee attack consumption rate (or it's pretty unnoticeable).

 

Basically, they have to reassign stamina consumption for sprint to lower level. This will allow player to move 'longer' and retain the 'ninja' feel. Increase the cost of stamina for melee (normal and charge) since we still can continuously slash everything indefinitely. 

 

Adding more mechanic for stamina is a great idea to increase the most lackluster side of Warframe : Build diversity.

- Parry is no brainer, it needs to get better.

- Add a "burst of speed" for closing in to melee range. Similar to Slash dash but limited to one target and deal no damage. Melee double tap for activation with varying cost depends on weapon. 

- Dodge idea is good, I agree. Only thing to beware is geometric stucking. The recent example was ME3's N7Slayer which caused lots of problem. 

What reasoning do you have to make melee worse? Melee is allready weaker than fiirearms. With stamina being less available, why would you even THINK of hurting melee more, seeing as most frames allready cannot close effectively and USE melee without getting destroyed in higher level play.

[dorkzillaa]

I personally agree that stamina as a mechanic could be made more relevant. But ruining the feel of being able to move quickly has killed the ninja vibe for me. Surely there was a way to nerf "helicoptering" without killing a lot of the fun of the game.

[Shadebain]

Read the OP, love it. 100%.

 

Have all my +1's!

[NetSlayer]

Pretty much everything I ever wanted in this

[MJ12]

So III of MJ12's list just went live today in this detail of 10.0.3:

 

- Dodging now uses stamina and has reduced damage while dodging

- Dodges are executed slightly faster.

Will be interested in feedback on this...

 

 

Okay, I've been playing and trying to get used to the new system, and I'm going to provide some more detailed feedback:

 

I. Dodging is still kind of weak and slow

 

Yeah, I'm sounding a bit ungrateful here but there's no other way to put it. I've tried using dodging to avoid damage and the damage reduction doesn't seem to be particularly significant. The speed increase is also apparently minor, it seems. Which is not inherently a problem if this was the 'no Stamina left' dodge, but that would imply there's an unimplemented flash step/ninja teleport/ninja dash dodge (whatever you want to call it) that's waiting to be put in.

 

Furthermore, that ties into #2:

 

II. Dodging right now isn't worth its cost

 

Again, the current dodge is okay for a free evasive move but it isn't worth 25% of stamina. In the suggestions I gave I suggested a very powerful but expensive dodge while you had stamina (guaranteed invulnerability for a short period of time plus fast movement) with a weak dodge when you lacked it. Right now we have that weak dodge but it also costs the stamina of the powerful dodge.

 

I'd prefer there being a full-up ninja teleport dodge implemented but if that'd take too much time further buffs to dodge effectiveness/speed and reduced dodge cost would also be adequate.

 

Oh, and yet another suggestion.

 

"Rush" should probably just increase all speeds outright

 

By "all speeds" I mean sprint speed, basic movement speed, and the speed of mantling and weapons switching animations. If "Rush" doesn't seem to cover all of that call it "Celerity" or "Haste". Alternatively, just make it modify sprint + basic movement speed

 

Yes, it'd make it somewhat better and it's already useful. But it'd also make you faster when you're out of Stamina, which would probably reduce a lot of complaints about Slowframe (and also mean you could hypothetically make a Rhino jog as fast as a Loki which is awesome).The +Sprint Speed modifier can stay in for hypothetical Dual Mods (like say, change the name of the current Marathon mod to "Endurance", then add in a "Marathon" mod that gives +Sprint Speed + Stamina).

 

In fact, let me make a general suggestion for mods:

 

Mods should be less specific unless you're increasing the number of modslots available

 

I'm serious here. Mods right now are generally far too specific. Take Marathon, for example. It just boosts your max stamina without impacting anything else. Remember, you only have 8 mod slots. Or all the elemental resistance mods. They resist one element that occasionally shows up. There are a lot of weak effects (like Loot Radar, Enemy Radar, etc) that really, really should be removed as mods in and of themselves and turned into elements of other mods. For example, Loot Radar and Enemy Radar.

 

Create a mod called "Enhanced Perception" that provides all the effects of both (see loot + enemies), turn Enemy Radar into Rare fusion cores. It might not be super-useful now but at least you're not going to go "why would I waste a mod slot on this ever?"

 

Warframe mods have some of the worst ones. The elemental mods should be consolidated into, say, two elemental resistances if you want to keep them at your current levels of resistance. Italicized elements are ones that don't have resistances yet. This is not an inclusive list: The idea is to have one physical, one 'all', and one elemental damage resistance modification, both of which have other benefits.

 

Elemental Hardening (resist elemental attacks like fire, ice, electricity, lasers, poison, and so on, and Ice Level Resistance)

 

Toughness (resist physical attacks like blades, claws, bullets, and explosions)

 

Durability (resist all elements, and add armor).

 

I could make a new thread for this if you want, but this is a general thing I keep observing, that we keep getting very specific single mods, which would work to some extent if we had infinite numbers of mod slots, but we don't.

 

Given the Focus Energy display bug, I think it's possible to actually fit these modifiers on a mod. Since the resistances to all the elements would be the same, Elemental Hardening might say "+X% resist to Fire, Ice, Lightning, and Poison. +Y% shields in ice levels". And take the X from any one of the four elements (so 3-18% resist). Ditto for Toughness.

Edited September 19, 2013 by MJ12

[Renkai141]

For the stamina type. I know this seems a bit late(very late). I've been reading this entire forum for a bit and I'm highly interested in the whole "idea" and-or topic of the whole thing.

#1 I would like to keep the current sprinting system- I did read what you said, but I am sad to disagree with it even if it's a great idea.

#2(Buff blocking, half- yes). Right now it seems to actually "do something". A grineer palm or any of the infested/corpus. I seem to pull out my block and still stay on the floor, still- without being blown up into bits and taking unnecessary damage or losing energy. I cannot verify if I still loose shield/hp from this, but I have tested out myself.

#3 Stamina/Dodging.

Agree 100% with the idea of "Becoming invulnerable". Meaning shots go through you, or any way shape or form that the player is not able to be hit at the current state. As you said it can make a skilled player look very flashy. Instead of just having big shields and armor(even though armor is getting a re-work) and just eating it all up.

#3&4-ish Example : Vindictus, dodging rewards the player from not being hit, and that is what is intended to do. I myself want to see that happen. Such as the mod "Handspring" which should just be a normal mechanic. Like you said in this part

"Why not fix the core issue? Sure, it seems like if you do that, people might spend a little less time grinding for new mods, but that's a false dilemma. Instead, if your new mods are actual mods instead of fixes for an issue, people will have a much better impression of the game and play it more often."

This follows up with the example from Vindictus which does a very good job at doing this- at a certain point in the game some characters are able to recover at a certain level/experience, once that is reached the player will be able to "recover". Now it does not only work as "Mash to recover"- but it also takes skill, which also mean the players will always have some sort of re-play ability and can always change the tide of battle depending if you do it correctly or not.

We need that sort of thing. Not, saying we do not have it but we should enforce it more.

And as of the conclusion that you made of the stamina. We have seen Stamina spheres lying around in the parkour room, why not drops for enemies as well? You just slashed a couple of Grineers- and it just drops out as stamina. (sure, it might be weird but it works very well for end-game as well).

I appreciate any of the feedback you give, I sometimes tend to confuse points or anything I did not read correctly.

[Eggus]

Constructive and awesome. +1

[A1CZERO]

Again I agree with most of the points and thoughts here.

The thing with dodge and block is you could slide dash away to avoid all the damage in the same time as it would have taken to dodge or block instead.

While I really appreciate(I really do) the buffs to dodge...it just still doesn't feel justified in it's use.

If it were to dodge far enough and fast enough, and if block were able to completely deflect most attacks then it could be used in creating different play styles while at the same time allowing viable use of mods other than the Redirection or Vitality kind.

If the stamina drain on block has to be increased I would totally be okay with that.

Edited September 19, 2013 by A1CZERO

[LeoAtKnight]

I never did post again on this thread, did I?

I find that the most important details of this thread are the dodging and blocking.

They need to be buffed, or reworked rather.

Dodging: What game is there where dodging DOESN'T have invulnerability frames? This game shouldn't be an exception. It just doesn't feel right when you're fighting Golem, or Lech Kril, and they decide to melee you. At the moment the best thing to do is slide melee towards them and end up behind them (or under, in Golem's case).

Adding invulnerability frames to dodging will greatly increase it's usefulness. We could also decrease the animation time slightly, yet again, but this is unnecessary.

So, how long should we be invulnerable? I say 0.25-0.35 seconds is fair. Plenty of time to dodge big attacks. We don't need to dodge barrages of bullets, we have another mechanic for that! Which I will get to right now...

Blocking: Blocking needs a slight rework. First, damage reduction needs to be increased. We still get chunked while using it. Increase damage reduction from melee to 100%, and damage reduction from light projectiles to 75%. I feel explosions should be dodged, as they are "big one hit attacks", so they should deal another damage type hardly mitigated by blocking.

Second thing blocking needs is instead of the constant drain of stamina it should stop stamina regeneration altogether and be decreased with every block. The amount decreased should be relative to the amount of damage blocked. I say 25% of the damage before reduction should be applied to stamina.

Let's look at stamina for a second. Currently it says we have eight. I hate decimals, so let's make that number bigger. We now have 800 stamina. You block a bullet that does 100 damage, so with the 75% damage reduction it now does 25. 25 damage to both shields/health and stamina apply. This means with 800 stamina, you can block up to 32 bullets before your block gives in.

This applies for melee as well. Melee attack does 100 damage? Blocking reduces damage by 100% for melee, however you still take 25% of the damage before reduction to stamina. Even though you take no shield/health damage you still take 25 to your stamina.

Given the fully automatic nature of most guns, this seems a little low, but with fast paced gameplay the point is to get in and out quickly. I don't imagine you would want to stand there tanking for a prolonged period of time.

I'm not going to say this would be balanced. I can already see flaws in what I posted, but it is a start, right?

Edited September 19, 2013 by LeoAtKnight

[MalusCalibur]

Could not agree more with the OP here. I'd also like to add the suggestion (if it has not been already) that the 'ninja run' button also work as a way to handspring to recover from knockdown much more quickly - right now it's one of the big breakers of mobility flow and takes player control away for far too long, leaving them unable to act to avoid damage from enemies and (particularly recently) poison. Artificial difficult at its worst - something like this would be a great way to deal with it.

[Thelonious]

Bumping to front page and contributing at the same time 

 

+1 to everything btw

 

Just a bit more:

Blocking should be a counterplay to ALL CC attacks: you should be able to block scorpion wires (duh), heavy gunners ground slam and MOA's shockwaves (just a pushback effect when blocking), just as you can block ancients arm attack. And rollers. Especially rollers. No more staggering while blocking.

 

This would be so easy to implement. and would make blocking so much better already. Next hotfix please.

 

Edit: same for dodging.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Thelonious

[nightrunner_ks]

I'm down with all of these, especially ninja-run. It would really tighten up the parkour. 

 

I don't understand how people could actually like the current sprinting system. OP's system would actually improve the pace of the game. Sprinting is great for games where you play as a big &#! soldier carrying big guns like in Gears of War, but its NOT FUN for games where you play as an advanced super ninja.

 

DE, you advertise the game as a Ninja game, yet these are the kind of ninja's which still jump like CJ in GTA San Andreas simply to get up onto a box.

 

I know you're trying not to copy MGR, Shinobi or any other kind of ninja games, but its not copying when you introduce mechanics that people legitimately enjoy.

 

Ninja's don't need to sprint. They just run at high speeds all the time. Forget all the casual COD kids who complain about the parkour, or the speed. Ninjas = speed and stealth. Without either you're just another Soldier in a special suit doing tricks. And right now, Warframe's speed and stealth mechanics are not very good.

 

The changes mentioned in the OP are great for the speed part of the Ninja equation. But the stealth part? How do we fix that?

 

1. Introduce Dark Souls style backstabs. Not just for stealth, but for any combat situation, including open combat. Good kill animations do wonders for a game's overall feel.

2. Remove the current Alarm system, it doesn't make sense. How come the Grineer sensors only activate when they raise the alarm? Why aren't they active all the time? And its ridiculous that they know your exact position all the time when you're detected. Do they wear special minimap screens which show them your exact position? One would think that the Warframes are capable of scrambling positioning systems. 

 

Aside from it being weird, it just ruins the game's stealth play. Instead, introduce a system where they can only locate you based off the last position where they saw you/geolocated you. That way, you introduce actual flanking elements into the game.

 

3. Add non-lethal takedowns. A lot of people like playing pacifist. Ninjas are not always assassins who just kill and kill. They get the job done in the quickest and most efficient way possible. Sometimes, mass murder isn't efficient.

 

4. Add regular Grineer patrol patterns. Stealth is ruined when the Grineer just turns around on a whim, or when he just starts randomly walking into a wall. Bioengineered Super Soldiers don't just walk around aimlessly.

 

Otherwise, the actual fundamental stealth mechanics (eg. crouching to avoid detection, 180 degree field of vision for enemies) is OK. Maybe add a light/dark system to hide Warframes more.

Edited October 13, 2013 by nightrunner_ks

[Krokar]

I. Remove sprinting:

 

Firstly, I can tell you one reason why you don’t want to “run really fast all the time”.  If you come across any situation where you would have to stop slowly before jumping, or if you need to creep around an obstacle for tactical kills without having to crouch; it requires a slower movement. There are far too many small ledges and narrow platforms that require precision in movement, not jogging.

I think what you are suggesting is more like some older Splinter Cell actions. In that scenario, you would have a key for “Action”, and that key could be pressed with, or without, holding or pressing another to initiate an action like climbing or wall running.

 

II. Buff Blocking:

 

Blocking should be completely automatic and not require any key for it.  Block values should be either a base stat per Warframe or a flat stat across the board.  These values could then be adjusted from Mods.  And yes, the mods don’t make sense right now and should be re-evaluated.

 

III. Dodging Should Use Stamina, Be Way Better:

 

I agree that dodge sucks in Warframe.  It takes a ridiculous key combination to do the Back-Handspring and the Side Rolls(though I use both often and also use the Wall run-and-jump to spin slash to avoid mobs and get position).  I’m not sure about dodge taking stamina, unless the entire action of it gets changed and it set to a single button maneuver. 

If Dodge was implemented in an actionable, animated maneuver like you have laid out, then  I could see it becoming more useful with the current mods In place for it.

 

IV: Mods should never be used to bandaid problems:

 

/agree

And let me point out, I keep getting astounded by the updates or hotfixes that implement 10-20 mods, when we still have such balance and AR outstanding issues that are getting resolved at an undisclosed time period… These mods only help the current system, which will change soon, or actually compound the issue further.

Edited October 13, 2013 by Krokar

[CaptainPeanut]

I love your idea, OP. I would gladly trade my increased shields for some stamina mods if it meant blocking and dodging could actually be useful to me. It would make me feel more like a ninja! As it is now, you're better off just increasing your shields to sponge up more damage from hitscan weapons before you can make it to cover and regen. It's too much like generic shooters as it is, and this idea would really make Warframe a more unique experience for players. Not to mention it would really reward skilled people willing to learn the mechanics of dodging correctly.

+1

[Raowyn]

First off, gotta say I love a lot of the suggestions in this thread. Wanna throw in my 2 cents now.

I personally would like to see sprinting and normal melee attacks not tied to stamina. As it stands, trying to melee anything that doesn't run up to you (IE: Infested) just doesn't work. By the time I kill a few enemies, I don't have enough stamina to anything except head towards the next target at a brisk walk. Instead, stamina can be used for actions like charge / slide attacks and more advanced parkour like wall running. Also, it would free up stamina to be used for a more active damage mitigation playstyle based around dodging / blocking attacks compared to just soaking it with shields and armor then ducking behind a box to wait for your shields to recharge.

 

As it stands, I don't even have my block key bound at the moment, and my dodge key is only used to backflip in boredom when I'm riding an elevator. Having a more active damage mitigation playstyle would be fantastic. Marathon and Quick Rest (along with many of the new mods for blocking) share the same polarity as Redirection / Fast Deflection / Steel Fiber / Vitality, so it would be easy enough to swap mods without having to repolarize your frame. Also, blocking could mitigate a percentage of damage (lets say 40% baseline improvable with mods) with a lower stamina cost. Dodge could mitigate all damage (since you avoid getting hit in the first place) for a much higher stamina cost, somewhere around of 50% of your base stamina.

 

It also opens up the possibility for different frames to have different baseline stamina values, making them lean more towards active or passive mitigation, but not force them to be exclusively one or the other. Frames with lighter armor like Ember can have a higher stamina, giving her more incentive to go towards active mitigation, whereas Rhino and Frost can still stack shields / armor and HP to be bullet sponges. We can keep the recharge delay on stamina as well to make things similar to the shield recharge delay, making it a resource you need to manage during a large firefight.

 

Active mitigation would allow higher survivability for more skilled players who can manage it, whereas shields and HP would be the "safer" approach. It would also make Marathon / Quick Rest / many of the new mods worth equipping in place of other survivability mods.

 

I would really like it if "active mitigation" were a thing. Soaking damage to shields then resting behind a box is HALO! Flipping all over the place and leaping wall to wall while enemies are like "where the hell did they go?" is much more appropriate for Warframe!