Stamina Changes Awful, Suggestion For Improvement

[SienRenegade]

For all the ppl talking about how hard it would be to aim with the new sprint speed, how about we just add something like "anti-sprint" key. I know it might sound stupid at first but that would allow you to move slow if u need / want it and wouldn't disrupt any of the new system.
Edit: Btw I don't think ANYONE will ever swap flow / streamline / redirection or anything like that for a stamina mod no matter how hard or slow u make the game without it.

Edited September 14, 2013 by SienRenegade

[BoompigXD]

[NERVNQSR]

For all the ppl talking about how hard it would be to aim with the new sprint speed, how about we just add something like "anti-sprint" key. I know it might sound stupid at first but that would allow you to move slow if u need / want it and wouldn't disrupt any of the new system.

Edit: Btw I don't think ANYONE will ever swap flow / streamline / redirection or anything like that for a stamina mod no matter how hard or slow u make the game without it.

crouching's almost useless so it could just make you walk instead

flow, redirection, vitality and all ability mods should be removed and added as a separate upgrade system as well anyway

Edited September 14, 2013 by NERVNQSR

[SienRenegade]

Another thing that came into my mind when playing Rhino now, meele feels a lot like a punishment. I should be able to cut the bad guys down if I want to do so, not think about "hmm can I rly meele this guy or do I have to wait afterwards for 15 sec for stamina to recharge?"

[awolin]

Please DE listen to us. I love this guys ideas.

[Psyked]

IV: Mods should never be used to bandaid problems

This is unrelated to the specific issue but is a general issue I keep seeing your team do. Instead of fixing a problem for everyone, you make a mod that sort of deals with it but not really. Handspring is an incredibly eregrious example, as are all the blocking mods. Why not fix the core issue? Sure, it seems like if you do that, people might spend a little less time grinding for new mods, but that's a false dilemma. Instead, if your new mods are actual mods instead of fixes for an issue, people will have a much better impression of the game and play it more often.

Finally somebody gets it, hurray.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Psyked

[General_Krull]

Sent to Scott, this is good discussion. Very good.

And nothing will change anyways.

[shinguv]

good suggestions that make sense and sound incredibly fun compared to what we have now

DE will never go for it......

[Dracosaber]

Wow, the OP has some amazing suggestions. Some tweaks here and there, and this could be the most fun ever! 

 

I sincerely hope the guys at DE take this into extreme consideration and implement at least the majority of it. This would make everyone feel even more ninja, and that's the aim of the game.

 

Good job, OP, +1 for you indeed. 

[SanguineXIII]

Agree with OP on pretty much all his points.   Making the stamina system more engaging does not mean "Make everything cost way more stamina and nerf stamina regeneration on top of that.".   This is about 10 times worse than when they decided to add a cooldown between slide momentum and everyone flipped their S#&$.  When they changed that, it didn't even bother me that much. Didn't notice a difference, because I mostly chained jumps and flips with my slides which would always result in the cooldown being over by the time i was ready to slide or flip again.

 

Currently I have to choose between melee combos, or parkour.   There is no longer any way to accomplish both at the same time, even equipping mods does not help, as the stamina drain itself now has the cooldown before it can regen. This totally hampers everyone's ability to chain parkour moves and melee together because you no longer gain any stamina between moves and have to actually stop using movement modifiers for a full second before it begins regenerating.

 

Please DE, actually fix the system, don't just nerf stamina and add some S#&$ty mods no one in their right mind would equip.

[Estred]

I very much like the OP's ideas. I will add my own (4th copy thread as I want feedback and want to help the discussion but SOO MANY STAMINA THEADS it's hard to find the right one).

 

Keep up the good ideas guys.

 

Stamina changes hit a few things from my testing and observation.

- There is a delay before you recharge

- Stamina drains faster or you have less of it

- Stamina recharges slower.

 

Now with how ungodly little mod space we have 32 Warframe Mods not counting the 4 Slots devoted to Warframe Powers and we only have 6 non-power based slots.

 

6/32 or we can only equip 18% of available mods. Now look at what we have.

- We have frames who without Focus/Stretch/Streamline/Flow cannot reliably keep powers running to do their DPS jobs.

- We have frames who without Rush and Marathon have no chance of keeping up without using Speedrunning Tactics.

- We have people who enjoy Melee but now cannot because doing so depletes stamina so they cannot keep up or move to new targets.

^ That is a big problem. One of the biggest joys of melee was spinning around and fliping over enemies causing chaos. With the new Stamina System, Melee Combat is broken and is punishing to use even for it's risk.

 

Melee is a risk, now since we have no Stamina we cannot keep moving in combat and then catch up to our teammates. Those who fight are left behind and those who don't rush ahead regardless. Now I will say this. I like the new system making Stamina important however the Charge Delay is too much because it breaks movement incredibly. Initiating Parkour takes approximately 25% Stamina, with a faster drain you can't Parkour as long some courses you can't do without Marathon.

 

Stamina should be important and should be a valued resource. However I think a few things can happen and make this so.

- faster recharge while in Melee Combat (sustained Melee) including Stamina boosts when enemy is slain.

- larger base stamina, like a lot larger.

- remove Marathon

- the closer to 0 Stamina you have the longer they delay before recharge

- the closer to 0 Stamina you have the slower the recharge (get's faster as it goes closer to maximum).

 

Now why would those help the system? Going part by part I will explain.

 

Faster Charge in Combat + Stamina Boost on Slain Enemy

The reason for this is to not punish Melee Combat by forcing them to expend all Stamina. Melee is an adrenaline rush and keeps your stamina high until you leave combat when you return to normal Stamina rates. This also means that killing the last enemy boosts your stamina to start running after your allies.

 

Larger Base Stamina + Remove Marathon

Why remove a Mod? Because it would break this suggestion at +150% Stamina. Basically make base stamina bars larger take Ember for example, a Mobile Caster Frame by what her abilities do (short range DoTS and she still needs more work). She has no movement skill and no movement boosts so she relies entirely on her stamina to keep moving. She has an 8 Stamina rating versus my Nyx who with Manticide (25%) has a rating of 10 meaning they both have a 8 base at rank 30. This is very little stamina overall and even with conservation, sliding and other Stamina saving moves I run out the second I start Melee combat (see suggestion 1). By raising the bases to a higher value and removing Marathon you get two effects.

- Manticide or other Stamina Helmets now have REAL value as Marathon is gone which by default Marathon would make an 8 Stamina Warframe into a 12 Stamina Warframe.

- Marathon will not be in the game as really it could only add Stamina which devalues the stat and devalues Stamina Helmets.

 

Percentage based Recharge/Rate Effects

This is the real change to stamina. With higher bases and and bonus's for Melee Combat, Stamina becomes a manageable resource for movement. The closer to 0 Stamina you are the longer it takes to start recharging due to exhaustion. The farther from 0 you take a break from the sooner it recharges. However, recharge rates while sliding are unchanged and unaffected. This is to prevent abuse of Slide-Recharging beyond what it does now. You actually have to stop moving to recharge quickly which means gun-combat will recharge stamina and proper Melee will too encouraging fighting breaks.

 

That is my take on the Stamina System and how it could be redone without reverting to the old system. Rushers will ALWAYS rush, there are ways and the best thing to do if your Sayrn/Rhino really is to use Vanguard or Hemlock for the speed boost or Cholora if the above Stamina Change is considered. Please let me know what you think, I feel I am on a right direction but I am but one person.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Estred

[SienRenegade]

Great summarize and a lot of very good potential solutions. I can see a problem with the 
"faster recharge while in Melee Combat (sustained Melee) including Stamina boosts when enemy is slain." I don't know how we would determine "sustained meele" since there would have to be a timer where u can actually swich targets without missing swings but not long enough so the stamina would regnerate to quick. Other than that I think it would be an awesome overhaul and a very good system that would take on a lot of the flaws.

Furthermore I also like the explanations u give to each point u make. I still wonder about a few things tho, how would "bonus regen rate in meele" work? Just a flat % regen increase of what u would have otherwise or a fixxed amount of stamina regen? For example if u are very low on stamina and still decide to meele would that increase your stamina regen by x points per second or by x % per second? This system actually offers a wide variety of balance chances (if something is too strong / weak it could be tweaked without touching other parts or beeing re balanced in their parts). I hope DE will take those ideas into consideration.

[Xanthis]

I approve of your ideas, my good man!

+1

[Blatantfool]

MY HEART IS FILLED WITH BURNING DESIRE!

[Godplank]

I like it but we all know none of this will ever happen because DE wants to pile on useless mods like acrobat and that new one with +% sliding. DE's way to address core gameplay issues is to make some mods and tweak some numbers, they already did it with melee, they just doubled some values on some mods and left melee to rot, completely ignoring the other issue surrounding the melee system.

[[DE]Rebecca]

So III of MJ12's list just went live today in this detail of 10.0.3:
 

- Dodging now uses stamina and has reduced damage while dodging

- Dodges are executed slightly faster.

Will be interested in feedback on this...

 

[A1CZERO]

So III of MJ12's list just went live today in this detail of 10.0.3:

 

- Dodging now uses stamina and has reduced damage while dodging

- Dodges are executed slightly faster.

Will be interested in feedback on this...

 

 

That's a fantastic start! Thanks much.

 

Can't wait on more improvements.

 

 

MY HEART IS FILLED WITH BURNING DESIRE!

 

I was starting to wonder when you'd show up.

Edited September 14, 2013 by A1CZERO

[Acos]

So III of MJ12's list just went live today in this detail of 10.0.3:

 

- Dodging now uses stamina and has reduced damage while dodging

- Dodges are executed slightly faster.

Will be interested in feedback on this...

 

Rebecca, that's nice, but I'd like to be able to run reliably first. When I really boil things down, that is what I think is the most plodding, irritating aspect; running shouldn't require stamina or it should be something that we can execute for a significantly large amount of time. 

Things which I would expect to cost stamina and seriously drain it are things like... Well, dodging when dodging reduces damage. or blocking. Naturally if I could just stand there holding the block or dodge key to mitigate damage indefinitely I'd consider that a little bit over powered. 

Basic movement, however, and especially in this game should be something our Tenno are quite adept at performing out of the box since the entire rest of the game is designed around us being able to run well out of the box. 

[A1CZERO]

Rebecca, that's nice, but I'd like to be able to run reliably first. When I really boil things down, that is what I think is the most plodding, irritating aspect; running shouldn't require stamina or it should be something that we can execute for a significantly large amount of time. 

Things which I would expect to cost stamina and seriously drain it are things like... Well, dodging when dodging reduces damage. or blocking. Naturally if I could just stand there holding the block or dodge key to mitigate damage indefinitely I'd consider that a little bit over powered. 

Basic movement, however, and especially in this game should be something our Tenno are quite adept at performing out of the box since the entire rest of the game is designed around us being able to run well out of the box. 

 

Dude...check the most recent hotfix.

[litlit]

Dude...check the most recent hotfix.

 

Running is still tied to stamina. It needs to not be tied to stamina.

[Estred]

Great summarize and a lot of very good potential solutions. I can see a problem with the 

"faster recharge while in Melee Combat (sustained Melee) including Stamina boosts when enemy is slain." I don't know how we would determine "sustained meele" since there would have to be a timer where u can actually swich targets without missing swings but not long enough so the stamina would regnerate to quick. Other than that I think it would be an awesome overhaul and a very good system that would take on a lot of the flaws.

Furthermore I also like the explanations u give to each point u make. I still wonder about a few things tho, how would "bonus regen rate in meele" work? Just a flat % regen increase of what u would have otherwise or a fixxed amount of stamina regen? For example if u are very low on stamina and still decide to meele would that increase your stamina regen by x points per second or by x % per second? This system actually offers a wide variety of balance chances (if something is too strong / weak it could be tweaked without touching other parts or beeing re balanced in their parts). I hope DE will take those ideas into consideration.

I was thinking that too and since it's short bursts I actually would remove that part. Just have it be "swinging your melee weapon" as really the stamina is from kills. The bonus Stamina would be flat-regen meaning consistent at all levels of Stamina so melee can be an effective regen if you are low. Ideally you have to be dealing damage hence the "adrenaline" that could be accomplished by having a proximity to enemies.

[Probta16]

Do i am the only one that think slightly faster is not faster enough?

[ShockTart]

i have to say, i do like the update, new boss is awesome, new frame is very cool. i havent used him yet but he looks pretty fun. from what i have seen he could stand to use a few buffs and patchwork here and there but he is a brand new frame. all of the frames have had to be buffed/nerfed or tweaked when they came out. necros is no exception to the rule, give the Devs time and he will get where he needs to be. as for the stamina change, i agree with the 90 something odd percent of people who say that they dont like it. it should go back to being what it originally was. if players wanted stamina to be important there are stamina mods already out to make it important, this nerf was not needed. pretty much devs what players are saying: dont fix what isnt broken.

Edited September 14, 2013 by ShockTart

[MJ12]

Okay, quick test feedback:

 

Dodging uses too much stamina for what it gives. When I suggested 25% base Stamina usage per dodge, I was under the impression that the dodge would be basically total invulnerability and very fast movement (sort of like a 'flash step', if you're familiar with the term, or a very short range teleport if you aren't) for a brief period of time. The current dodge is somewhat better, but if it's going to stay this way it should be costed the same as jumping.

 

Sprint is much better, and the stamina regen delay now is much more responsive.

 

All in all, not everything I wanted but it's a good start.

[Ryouzhein]

Here are my thoughts on original suggestions:

I. Remove sprinting.
I don't think sprinting should be removed outright. Instead, the sprint button could work much the same way it does today with one important difference: it does not consume stamina on use. In this way it would function as the auto-parkour button you suggest, performing 1, 3 and 4 of your suggested 'sprint' actions. However I think block should retain it's own distinct button, so that you could use it for other interesting things such as animation cancels, blocking during sprint and possibly faster recovery from knockdowns/staggers.

Similarly, basic melee attacks should be divorced from the stamina bar. Special attacks such as charged attacks, spin attacks, wall attacks, jump attacks and the like should be the only melee attacks that consume stamina.
 

II. Buff Blocking
I agree with your suggestions except on one point: the amount of damage reduction for melee and ranged. I think that blocking should provide a 30%-40% reduction of all incoming damage instead of totally negating any one source. Also, some attacks should be either unblockable, such as charged attacks, or result in a guard break (remove block and stagger for several seconds), such as jumping attacks. Furthermore, holding down the block key should continuously drain stamina by 3-5% per second. This would help to keep blocking balanced and skill based without it being too OP.
 

The block key could also be used as a 'quick recovery' key, where it will grant you instant recovery from staggers/knockdowns in exchange for a large chunk of stamina, say 25-30%, further increasing the importance of stamina management.
 

III. Dodging Should Use Stamina, Be Way Better
Again, I agree with you on all points except one: the amount of stamina used for dodging. Instead of 25%, dodging as you propose should consume 50% of the stamina bar. This would give you 2 dodges and could be offset with a mod that decreases dodge stamina consumption by 10-40% (effectively giving you one extra dodge). Why the insanely high cost? Because dodge would be godly as you describe and it would need to be balanced as such.
 

One last suggestion I would make is to give everyone the same amount of base stamina. This would put everyone on even footing and make stamina mods a more attractive and integral part of a build. Overall great suggestions that should be implemented.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Ryouzhein