Everyone Shouldn't (Fully) Complete Everything

[(PSN)wintersfrozen]

54 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

I see what you are saying, but I guess I should define what "new player" means. I'm not talking about people that literally just started the game, in which case they have much more important things to focus on such as completing the multi-staged Vor's Prize to restore their ship's functionality, getting to their first junction, learning how to play the game, etc. A brand new player is not going to have a shortage of things to do and focus on. And in that regard, yes a brand new MR1 player will miss out because we can't just taxi them to an alert. For any other newer, low MR player, whose completed the tutorial, has their foundry and navigation, worked on getting through some of the star chart, it wont take them long to get these things for themselves through Wolf Creds.

It is perfectly achievable to get 50 creds the first week, and another 50 creds the second week, totaling 100 creds in two weeks. The first cred milestone is at tier 3, and the second milestone is at tier 6, requiring a total of 60,000 Night Wave reputation out of a possible total of 86,000 rep, which is achievable even if a new player skips 2 weekly elites, and a myriad of dailies or another weekly. At worst, a new player wont be able to pick and choose which missions to skip whereas a long-time player will. A veteran can say "I don't want to do Kuva, so I wont" whereas a new player will say "I can't access kuva yet, so I have to do everything else." To that I can understand a new players frustration over having less freedom to pick and choose which missions to do/not do, but that flexibility will come naturally as they complete tasks in the game and progress further into the star chart. I still see this as being no different from the old alert system. If your argument is that the Alert System was better because you could taxi low MR friends to missions they couldn't access, then simply do the same with the Night Wave system by carrying them through a Kuva or Eidolon mission.

Moving on from here, I again think you are exaggerating the difficulty and time required to earn reputation. Rank 8 is only 80,000 reputation, when we are given a weekly cap through challenges of 43,000. Even if they can't do elite challenges yet, or they can't find someone to carry them through it (much like we were just discussing had to be done with the Alert system), then they are still more than capable of getting 28,000 each week on their own just from doing dailies/weeklies. Looking at this week, the only thing a newer player might not have access to is a Kuva mission, and a Sortie. Relics can be opened on Earth, Rare mods can be farmed from Assassination missions on any planet. If you aren't MR 3 and thus don't have the capability of joining a Syndicate, and you don't have heat/cold/electric mods yet for the dailies, then take that as a sign from the game indicating to you that you have more important and immediate things to focus on. If we eliminate the Sortie and the Kuva mission (in case you can't find someone to carry you), you can still achieve 35,000 rep this week. 

I've seen a lot of veteran players arguing on "behalf" of newbies, and yet the only confirmed new player to comment in this thread said that they enjoyed the Night Wave system because the game challenged them to do new things.

You'll have to excuse me as I can no longer find a post by someone who was a "new player" with the lowest persons saying they enjoy it being MR 10 (which is arguably mid range due to no planet block but still unable to use all weapons/rivens). Unless you are referring to the individual who claimed they carried an MR 5 at which point they are not the MR5 so it doesn't say much to the new player experience.

That flexibility is part of the issue. For new players wanting something from the shop there isn't any. You either do everything you can every day or you miss out where as older players have the luxury to say "Kuva mission... ya not feeling that." With the old alert system it was an instant guaranteed thing. You see that blue print you do the mission or ask for help and its yours. Yes people complain about how it was a "pay to sleep" but that is an over exaggeration and they should know it. Things like Niatan showed up 4 times a day guaranteed, you miss them that day then so be it try again tomorrow. The new system is not as forgiving as on top the grind to get the credits what you want is subject to change at the end of the week. (unless it is the aforementioned Niatan which is a permant in the shop.) The new system imposes a punishment that was not there before just because they are new. you do these things this week/play this way this week or else you can't that MR fodder.

Without Elites yes the cap is 28000 a week which again I say is still 2 weeks to hit rank 3. Lets also not forget that the system is unforgiving if you miss any time. You want that Rank 8 warframe slot then you are going to need to dedicate yourself to getting at lest 10k standing a week. To higher MR palyers that doesn't seam difficult but to new players it can be further more if you join the game at the half way mark or later then your screwed.

"If you aren't MR 3 and thus don't have the capability of joining a Syndicate, and you don't have heat/cold/electric mods yet for the dailies, then take that as a sign from the game indicating to you that you have more important and immediate things to focus on. " The game is literally play how you want when you want for a majority of the content the exceptions being a few story missions. Hell there is a player on here who is playing without a frame because they wanted to know what happens if the G3 take your only frame. Not everyone likes to use elemental mods, not everyone keeps them when they do. Some people have S#&$ty RNG so those are better done with Ember, Frost and Volt respectively. 2 of which you may not be able to build because of that free slot locked at rank 8 and most new players have built a second frame by that point.

"I still don't have Vaubaun, despite the old alert system, and despite being MR 16, whereas an MR 20 might not have Gara, whereas I do, and its because we prioritize things differently and that's totally fine"

Your right, everyone should be allowed to pick and choose including new players. Like how they could with the old alert system.

I've seen a lot of people defending the new system because they can complete all the challenges and saying anyone who can't needs to suck it up. Looks like people don't agree about it.

[ShortCat]

18 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

I am glad to know that out of everything I wrote in my last post, the only criticism you have left is about the supposed notion that new players are somehow getting shafted by the new system. I can't help but feel like you are taking what I said out of context and twisting my words to convey something contrary to my intended point, so let me clarify what I meant because I clearly did a poor job at articulating it. The new system benefits new players better than the old alert system.

I quoted only this part, because those few lines were the only new input within this thread. Everything else were lukewarm arguments repeated ad nauseam and even missing the points I were making.

• I talk about uneven Wolf Creds milestone destribution - you counter with a veteran will get many potatoes, which I actually wrote in my post, and how beginners will earn new things every week even if they do not complete all challanges. Uhu, with 6 nodes over a timespan of 10 weeks and gap width of 40k standing. Sanity check failed.
• I talk about how restrictive loot table rotations and rotation cycles are, especially in combination with above mentioned periodes without any Cred gains - you counter they can focus on important things. Nitain required for wepons 162 = 495 creds; 18 Auras = 360 creds; 9 weapon BPs = 450 creds; 38 Frames with 2 alt helmets = 2660 creds. In total 3965 creds. Excluded is Nitain for research, weapon skins as well as other cosmetics and possible spendings on potatoes. Go get generous with 300 creds after 10 weeks.
• I talk about how miserable challanges are for both extrems on the player spectrum - you counter with off the mark and deliberately deceptive tweet. As it was not explained why this tweet is deceptive in this thread yet, I will do so now. First of all, it is not challanges it is standing you need to advance. With 43k standing available each week via challanges, 30 tiers and a runtime of 10 weeks you would need 30k each week to just reach last tier. Second, under this circumestances it is close to 70% not 60% of weekly standing. Third and most important one, not mentioned in the tweet itself, as challanges are weighted, it is damn important to do all weekly and especially elite challanges to safely reach last tier or prestige ranks and you just cannot skip 1/3 of them. 
• I talk about poor transparence and accessibility - you counter with speculative claims and only reinforce my argument. Will Wolf Armor return? Probably. Maybe even as first tier reward in the 2nd season. Or can you at least tell me how much Wolf Creds you can earn with prestige ranks?

I did not twist your words, you responded to my post with off the mark argumetns, which can hardly support you standpoint. The new system does not benefit new palyers.

18 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

but that wont stop them from getting rewards that are most useful to them now. Most Alert rewards were (and even now remain) useless to new players. I understand that with the previous RNG-based Alert system, players had the potential to earn more rewards. For example, there might have been two alerts up, one for a Heat Sword, and one for Equinox's alternate helmet, and nothing was preventing that player (other than needing to unlock the star chart) from collecting both rewards. While they could earn both rewards, it didn't change the fact that the Equinox helmet was/is completely useless to a new player unless they unlocked Equinox with platinum because they wont have access to her at this point in the game otherwise.

Following this logic, veterans have no need for more potatoes, because there are not enough new weapons or frames. Or, you do not need Endo, if you have no new mods. Absurd.

18 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

I understand that to you, it just boils down to less rewards, but my point is, are new players really missing out if they can't even use said rewards until much further down the road? Especially when the trade-off is access to more usefull rewards right now, instead of waiting on RNGesus to deliver the alert they need.

Same story as above. Additionally, you are again missing the part with limited availability of Wolf Creds and timed and limited loot tables on long rotations. Even if we go along the "usefull rewards" line. Who is telling a beginner what is usefull and what is not? You did a mistake last week and bought that Equinox helmet, while that sweet Corrosive Projection remains untouched? Welp, wait 4-5 weeks to get another shot.

18 hours ago, IntheCoconut said:

And lets not ignore my other point, which is that new Night Wave system actively rewards new players with things that are invaluable to their progress, such as free warframe slots, and free weapon slots. This is major. New players' progress wont suddenly be hindered by the fact that, very early on, they need to acquire platinum to continue building weapons/frames. This is a direct solution to that. New players can just focus on playing the game instead of needing to decide if they want to invest real money into a game they just started playing. 

Those items are not free, though. Nightwave tiers that grant Forma or potatoes are equivalents to old Forma/potato alerts, which happened more frequently btw. Weapon and Frame slots giveaways are nice. But on the other hand, Nightwave gives less, so that those "free" plat will be spent somewhere else: there are no creddits, resources, nightmare mods, Kubrow eggs or Kavat DNA equivalents, so you either grind to death or turn to market/tradechat. You want to build your first frame and fill that free frame slot? Tough luck, because Neural Sensors drop on Jupiter and Argon after Europa.

Edited March 7, 2019 by ShortCat

[IntheCoconut]

17 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

You'll have to excuse me as I can no longer find a post by someone who was a "new player" with the lowest persons saying they enjoy it being MR 10 (which is arguably mid range due to no planet block but still unable to use all weapons/rivens). Unless you are referring to the individual who claimed they carried an MR 5 at which point they are not the MR5 so it doesn't say much to the new player experience.

That flexibility is part of the issue. For new players wanting something from the shop there isn't any. You either do everything you can every day or you miss out where as older players have the luxury to say "Kuva mission... ya not feeling that." With the old alert system it was an instant guaranteed thing. You see that blue print you do the mission or ask for help and its yours. Yes people complain about how it was a "pay to sleep" but that is an over exaggeration and they should know it. Things like Niatan showed up 4 times a day guaranteed, you miss them that day then so be it try again tomorrow. The new system is not as forgiving as on top the grind to get the credits what you want is subject to change at the end of the week. (unless it is the aforementioned Niatan which is a permant in the shop.) The new system imposes a punishment that was not there before just because they are new. you do these things this week/play this way this week or else you can't that MR fodder.

Without Elites yes the cap is 28000 a week which again I say is still 2 weeks to hit rank 3. Lets also not forget that the system is unforgiving if you miss any time. You want that Rank 8 warframe slot then you are going to need to dedicate yourself to getting at lest 10k standing a week. To higher MR palyers that doesn't seam difficult but to new players it can be further more if you join the game at the half way mark or later then your screwed.

"If you aren't MR 3 and thus don't have the capability of joining a Syndicate, and you don't have heat/cold/electric mods yet for the dailies, then take that as a sign from the game indicating to you that you have more important and immediate things to focus on. " The game is literally play how you want when you want for a majority of the content the exceptions being a few story missions. Hell there is a player on here who is playing without a frame because they wanted to know what happens if the G3 take your only frame. Not everyone likes to use elemental mods, not everyone keeps them when they do. Some people have S#&$ty RNG so those are better done with Ember, Frost and Volt respectively. 2 of which you may not be able to build because of that free slot locked at rank 8 and most new players have built a second frame by that point.

"I still don't have Vaubaun, despite the old alert system, and despite being MR 16, whereas an MR 20 might not have Gara, whereas I do, and its because we prioritize things differently and that's totally fine"

Your right, everyone should be allowed to pick and choose including new players. Like how they could with the old alert system.

I've seen a lot of people defending the new system because they can complete all the challenges and saying anyone who can't needs to suck it up. Looks like people don't agree about it.

I appreciate you responding and taking the time to reply thoughtfully. I've enjoyed this discussion, but I admit that I have nothing left to contribute to it. I just feel as though I'd be repeating much of what I've said and so it just boils down to a disagreement in opinion. I personally don't think the new Nightwave system is that demanding, and it is still designed in a way that new/casual players can complete it (I'm not new, but I'm definitely without a doubt casual and my time is very limited), and/or even carried through missions just like the old alert system.

The one thing I can say is that DE changed the system because people have been complaining about it for years. I browse not only these forums, but steam and reddit frequently, I admit maybe more than I should (even when I don't always post), so I've seen plenty of complaint threads about alerts because players were missing out on rewards due to sleep/work:

Nitain Alerts Suggestion

No more reactors/catalyst alerts?

the damn alert system

Why is Nitain Extract so hard to farm? What am I missing?

Nitain Extract rant

Missing alerts at work is the worst

There were also plenty of people complaining and pointing out the flaws to the old alert system since it first debuted years ago:

My complains and solution to the Alert System

Helmet alerts, I hate them

Alerts- All the good ones appear at stupid-o-clock

Ugh. Alerts suck for night-shifters

I get that I'm just posting a bunch of other threads but I'm just trying to show that there are a lot of recent posts complaining about the old alert system, and those complaints have spanned back years and years. I don't think "pay to sleep" is an exaggeration, and its because of this recurring complaint that DE finally changed the system. I get the irony that now there are dozens of threads complaining about this new system, and I'm not suggesting that people just roll over if they truly despise it. I'm also not suggesting that this new system is flawless, or that other problems wont arise down the road. I just think its too early for people to be condemning it when they haven't even tried it out. I am also no longer a new player, but I can say that I wish this system was available when I was starting out, and I can see how DE could have read the above posts and made the new Nightwave system as a direct solution to those complaints.

 

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I quoted only this part, because those few lines were the only new input within this thread. Everything else were lukewarm arguments repeated ad nauseam and even missing the points I were making.

• I talk about uneven Wolf Creds milestone destribution - you counter with a veteran will get many potatoes, which I actually wrote in my post, and how beginners will earn new things every week even if they do not complete all challanges. Uhu, with 6 nodes over a timespan of 10 weeks and gap width of 40k standing. Sanity check failed.
• I talk about how restrictive loot table rotations and rotation cycles are, especially in combination with above mentioned periodes without any Cred gains - you counter they can focus on important things. Nitain required for wepons 162 = 495 creds; 18 Auras = 360 creds; 9 weapon BPs = 450 creds; 38 Frames with 2 alt helmets = 2660 creds. In total 3965 creds. Excluded is Nitain for research, weapon skins as well as other cosmetics and possible spendings on potatoes. Go get generous with 300 creds after 10 weeks.
• I talk about how miserable challanges are for both extrems on the player spectrum - you counter with off the mark and deliberately deceptive tweet. As it was not explained why this tweet is deceptive in this thread yet, I will do so now. First of all, it is not challanges it is standing you need to advance. With 43k standing available each week via challanges, 30 tiers and a runtime of 10 weeks you would need 30k each week to just reach last tier. Second, under this circumestances it is close to 70% not 60% of weekly standing. Third and most important one, not mentioned in the tweet itself, as challanges are weighted, it is damn important to do all weekly and especially elite challanges to safely reach last tier or prestige ranks and you just cannot skip 1/3 of them. 
• I talk about poor transparence and accessibility - you counter with speculative claims and only reinforce my argument. Will Wolf Armor return? Probably. Maybe even as first tier reward in the 2nd season. Or can you at least tell me how much Wolf Creds you can earn with prestige ranks?

I did not twist your words, you responded to my post with off the mark argumetns, which can hardly support you standpoint. The new system does not benefit new palyers.

Following this logic, veterans have no need for more potatoes, because there are not enough new weapons or frames. Or, you do not need Endo, if you have no new mods. Absurd.

Same story as above. Additionally, you are again missing the part with limited availability of Wolf Creds and timed and limited loot tables on long rotations. Even if we go along the "usefull rewards" line. Who is telling a beginner what is usefull and what is not? You did a mistake last week and bought that Equinox helmet, while that sweet Corrosive Projection remains untouched? Welp, wait 4-5 weeks to get another shot.

Those items are not free, though. Nightwave tiers that grant Forma or potatoes are equivalents to old Forma/potato alerts, which happened more frequently btw. Weapon and Frame slots giveaways are nice. But on the other hand, Nightwave gives less, so that those "free" plat will be spent somewhere else: there are no creddits, resources, nightmare mods, Kubrow eggs or Kavat DNA equivalents, so you either grind to death or turn to market/tradechat. You want to build your first frame and fill that free frame slot? Tough luck, because Neural Sensors drop on Jupiter and Argon after Europa.

I didn't post a tweet, so I'm not sure what you are talking about but if you want to post it yourself for clarity that'd be great. I was basing my argument off the information found here. Further more, you criticize me for looking at this supposed "deceptive tweets" and yet you are basing your own math and speculation on the same tweet? So its okay to condemn those tweets when it is used for my argument (which again, not sure what tweet you are referring to because I didn't reference any), but okay to validate your own? 

You go on to post that there are lots of weapons/frames/helmets that need Nitain. Awesome. Needing 162 Nitain now doesn't mean I didn't need 162 Nitain with the old Alert system. DE didn't change the requirements for weapons and frames, instead they changed how you can acquire Nitain. The only person that is getting a "nerf" to their acquisition are the no-lifers who could afford to sit around and wait for every Nitain alert. There are a lot of new and casual players alike that struggled to acquire even 1 Nitain because of their schedule didn't align with any of the alerts. Further more, NO player, new or otherwise, is going to need all 162 Nitain all at once. But sure, why not, lets celebrate the fact that, if I wanted to, I could literally get all 162 Nitain I need to craft everything, in less than two seasons of the Nightwave system. I don't even know what to say, I guess you must have been swimming in Nitain from the Alert system if you somehow think the potential for 162 Nitain in under 5 months is bad.

I don't expect anyone, especially a new player, to focus on something they don't need or even want but that's what you are doing. You are throwing the total cost of everything in the game and expecting it to prove what? That there is a lot to unlock? Sure, but no player needs or wants everything at once, so sitting here and saying "the Nightwave system sucks because you need 3965 cred to unlock everything in the game" is a weak argument. Did you unlock everything in the old alert system? Did you get every alternate helmet? I didn't, and I don't know a single person who did or cared to. So I guess you are right, completionists are hurt by this new system. Everyone else, can get what they need/want at a much more reliable rate.

Edited March 7, 2019 by IntheCoconut

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-03-04 at 4:22 PM, DrBorris said:

As it has been repeated time and time again, you only need to complete roughly 65% of Nightwave to "complete" it. More precisely, given a 10 week run-time, you need to get 30,000 reputation every week. Excuse me for being blunt, but getting 30k reputation even on a week where the challenges are as "atrocious" as this¹ is a joke given how easy it is.

You are wrong. It is very easy for a solo player who is putting in the same time as a teaming player to slip under the 30k a week as approximately 10K per week has been locked behind scaling-broken content or warm body checks so far, that puts them on the razor-edge of not being able to keep up.

That's bad, end of list

Not that I expect you to care about that.