Is There A Reason You Nerfed Ash And Loki?

[AlchemistMute]

Nova is a glass cannon.  She can kill the heavy runner (as well as every other nearby enemy) from a long way away.  She also has a pretty good escape mechanism in the form of Wormhole.  Ash doesn't even have close to the highest tank stats in the game.  He's got 100 shields (average), 150 health (high), and 50 armor (average).  Frost, Rhino, and Saryn all beat Ash quite easily in this regard and they also have better abilities.

Hell, the armor doesn't even matter. It only applies to health, so Saryn + Equilibrium is the only way to abuse armor/health tank.

 

I agree with the rest of the post.

[Ganpot]

It's not a big deal, if anything, it's better this way. No more Godmode-type BS in the game cept Trin's Blessing, which is decent.

 

You're fine with Trinity's Blessing?  Really?  That provides invulnerability to the entire team.  And if Trinity is wearing her S1 alternate helmet, her power lasts longer than Loki's Invisibility.  That's seriously messed up.  Not to mention that Trinity is the only frame in the game with an energy-regeneration ability. 

 

If the devs are going to nerf things, then maybe they should start with warframes which are actually considered powerful by the community.  Can you imagine the ****storm which would ensue if Nyx's Chaos got limited to 10 enemies, Snowglobe got a damage cap, and Nova's Anti-Matter Drop and Molecular Prime were limited to 500 damage per enemy? 

 

Ash and Loki used to be prized for their survivability (not the same thing as tankiness).  But what possible reason could a person have now for not just using Rhino?  Rhino can be incredibly fast (with the S2 helmet), deals far more damage, has way better base stats, and can be immune to all staggers/knockdowns indefinitely.  With a Shade sentinel, he's a better Ash than Ash is. 

[BlueIstari]

If Rhino can't have personal invulnerability, no one can. ;)

[chimp77]

You do realize this is supposed to be a co-op game, right?  There is a massive difference between having an ability not be effected by the presence of teammates, and one which actively punishes co-op play.  Would you be okay with Radial Disarm also disarming your teammates?  I don't think so. 

 

What? Invisibility (regardless of invincibility) is not a team skill. It forces all enemies to ignore you, effectively increasing the pressure on your teammates. How is that not punishing co-op play? I don't understand your argument, do you want Invisibility to be removed? Just because invisibility doesn't directly benefit the team, doesn't mean it has no place in the game.

 

I just don't have any problems with this change since I'm never casting invisibility while in the line of fire, and if I ever have to, I just move out of the way no problem. Decoy can at least buy you a few seconds for a measly 25 energy, but I will agree that Ash has some underwhelming powers late game. Honestly I don't play Ash that much, so I can't really argue for him, but as a seasoned Loki veteran I can say the trickster is fine imo.

 

Also, generally I find that invincibility powers are such game breakers. Honestly I hope that Blessing gets changed, and maybe even Snow Globe. Those two powers are so ridiculous compared to any other power in the game.

[Dasmir]

"Warframe invi can get hits but shade invi not"

 

Warframe logic again.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Dasmir

[kubbi]

I didn't even know you were invincible when you used those skills. I assumed I didn't get hurt because the enemies simply didn't see me. Derp.

[AlchemistMute]

What? Invisibility (regardless of invincibility) is not a team skill. It forces all enemies to ignore you, effectively increasing the pressure on your teammates. How is that not punishing co-op play? I don't understand your argument, do you want Invisibility to be removed? Just because invisibility doesn't directly benefit the team, doesn't mean it has no place in the game.

It doesn't directly benefit. That's what you have to do; while you're invisible, make easy kills for your teammates. If you can't do that you're a liability.

 

The rest is understandable.

[xBrend]

WE SHOULD JUST GIVE EVERYONE INVINCIBILITY!!

 

Loki used to be able to avoid the void lasers with invisibility like in the old parkour room when someone got downed I used to be able to save them now i can go down there and die :D

[ProjectKaeon]

WE SHOULD JUST GIVE EVERYONE INVINCIBILITY!!

 

Loki used to be able to avoid the void lasers with invisibility like in the old parkour room when someone got downed I used to be able to save them now i can go down there and die :D

I've been playing since beta and I have never once been invincible. (with Loki), maybe it's just me.

Edited September 15, 2013 by NBlitZ

[Ganpot]

I've been playing since beta and I have never once been invincible. (with Loki), maybe it's just me.

 

Are you sure you just didn't notice it?  I've had many situations (mostly with Ash, but with Loki as well) where I was clearly invincible, at least from normal ranged attacks. 

[TupaiBakery]

It seems like DE trying to balance frame one by one. I have no idea about why they take away overheat amazing defense boost away from ember, but this is the same as "Why Trinity's Link is no longer providing Invincibility", i'm fine with Link although i agree with the rest of the community that the new EV does not fit the gameplay. I guess this is the same for Loki. Invisibility was meant to provide invisibility, not immunity towards gunfire. This makes Loki more vulnerable but still, it's an improvement i think. Trinity being invulnerable all the time and Loki being invulnerable all the time kills the fun. Now don't get me wrong, Trinity is my main, and my second main happened to be Loki too, and i think the change is good (except for EV), it is just that i don't know why they decided to start with frame that's rather unpopular, if there's any frame i think need rebalancing bad is Nova, but it might cause outrage too great to handle compared to simply nerf Ember that only a small amount of people uses, maybe DE do this to see the community feedback first.

[yuujisakakibara]

More like a fix for me.

[Ganpot]

It seems like DE trying to balance frame one by one. I have no idea about why they take away overheat amazing defense boost away from ember, but this is the same as "Why Trinity's Link is no longer providing Invincibility", i'm fine with Link although i agree with the rest of the community that the new EV does not fit the gameplay. I guess this is the same for Loki. Invisibility was meant to provide invisibility, not immunity towards gunfire. This makes Loki more vulnerable but still, it's an improvement i think. Trinity being invulnerable all the time and Loki being invulnerable all the time kills the fun.

 

The thing is, Trinity still has invincibility due to Blessing.  In fact, she is quickly becoming the only frame with it.  Loki was in a good place, because he was effective if played correctly but extremely fragile if caught off guard.  Now he's just all-around fragile. 

 

Also think about this: based on the bonuses provided to Smokescreen and Invisibility, it can reasonably be assumed that these abilities were supposed to promote melee combat.  But now Loki and Ash risk their lives every time they get close to enemies (even while invisible), because if an enemy is facing in their general direction and shoots anywhere, they are probably going to get hit (that's not even counting stuns and AoE attacks). 

[yuujisakakibara]

The thing is, Trinity still has invincibility due to Blessing.  In fact, she is quickly becoming the only frame with it.  Loki was in a good place, because he was effective if played correctly but extremely fragile if caught off guard.  Now he's just all-around fragile. 

 

Also think about this: based on the bonuses provided to Smokescreen and Invisibility, it can reasonably be assumed that these abilities were supposed to promote melee combat.  But now Loki and Ash risk their lives every time they get close to enemies (even while invisible), because if an enemy is facing in their general direction and shoots anywhere, they are probably going to get hit (that's not even counting stuns and AoE attacks). 

That sounds like something we can get around for now, like don't stand in enemy firing direction, and about get caught off guard is part of the game. Still the bonuses didn't justified it, the challenge vs prize is not fair. Melee needs a lot of rework, i know because i tried several builds (Either mincing your opponent with Fang Prime or cut them apart with several kinds of charge build) and it's not really rewarding.

[Ferriwind]

You can activate Invisibility in the air or while sliding. Smoke Screen not so much.

[stivoknis]

Just don't get seen ... ever.  This shouldn't be difficult since Loki can practically stay invisible forever.

[Xenrax]

Oh dear!

I can't easily just use my 'I win' button and run away like a coward without any repercussions whenever I'm stuck in a sticky situation!  OH WOE IS MEEEEE!

I guess you must re-learn the way of the ninja.

[AttackNitro]

There was never any invunerability when using invisibility.

 

What are you even talking about?

[LazerusKI]

Obvious reason: PvP balance.

seriously? shut up...

Invisible is simply not invulnerable

they removed it from rhino for a reason, permagodmode, you know?

why should it be different for the cloakers? they also get a nice damage-buff while they are cloaked, redcrits and such things...so...old iron-skin + roar?

you cant be serious that they changed it because of "pvp"

it was simply a bug

Edited September 15, 2013 by LazerusKI

[Ganpot]

Oh dear!

I can't easily just use my 'I win' button and run away like a coward without any repercussions whenever I'm stuck in a sticky situation!  OH WOE IS MEEEEE!

I guess you must re-learn the way of the ninja.

 

Oh yes, because it's not like any other frame has an "I win" button or a "get out of trouble" button.  Oh wait. 

 

Let's just count how many "I win" buttons exist in this game.  Chaos, Blessing, Miasma, Bastille, Vortex, Snowglobe, Molecular Prime, Anti-Matter Drop, Rhino Stomp, Iron Skin, and Pull.  You know, I guess you're right.  We should just get rid of powers entirely, and make this into a standard 3rd person shooter.  Since, you know, real ninjas just use rocket launchers. 

 

 

Invisible is simply not invulnerable

they removed it from rhino for a reason, permagodmode, you know?

why should it be different for the cloakers? they also get a nice damage-buff while they are cloaked, redcrits and such things...so...old iron-skin + roar?

 

The damage buff is largely worthless.  Melee weapons will never output the same DPS as the best ranged weapons, even with the stealth buff.  Not to mention that using melee weapons requires significantly more risk.  Also, Ash's invisibility lasts all of 8 seconds. 

 

Let's compare Ash to Rhino, shall we?  Rhino can be just as mobile as Ash with his S2 helmet.  Rhino is also far tankier than Ash.  But what about abilities?  Well, Rhino gets to be immune to all stun effects, gets extra health, has a massive AoE nuke which also stuns all enemies for an extended duration, and he also gets to buff all of his damage by 50%.  What a lucky guy.  And now for Ash.  He has....  a heavily damaging single-target attack, a highly limited mobility tool which basically stuns him for 1 second, and an AoE nuke with a target cap and an extremely slow activation time.  So in other words...  Ash is utter **** compared to Rhino, in every possible way.  Seriously, give me one thing that Ash can do better. 

[fatpig84]

I never experienced invincibility.

 

Try standing near a toxic ancient with loki on invisibility and I will die like a fly, so my solution is go invisible and behind them.

Anyhow DE should implement back stab damage to encourage melee based frames to do it more often.

[lolatbob]

You need to learn to go faster so you don't get hit.

git gud. git fast.

[LazerusKI]

Oh yes, because it's not like any other frame has an "I win" button or a "get out of trouble" button.  Oh wait. 

 

Let's just count how many "I win" buttons exist in this game.  Chaos, Blessing, Miasma, Bastille, Vortex, Snowglobe, Molecular Prime, Anti-Matter Drop, Rhino Stomp, Iron Skin, and Pull.  You know, I guess you're right.  We should just get rid of powers entirely, and make this into a standard 3rd person shooter.  Since, you know, real ninjas just use rocket launchers. 

 

 

 

The damage buff is largely worthless.  Melee weapons will never output the same DPS as the best ranged weapons, even with the stealth buff.  Not to mention that using melee weapons requires significantly more risk.  Also, Ash's invisibility lasts all of 8 seconds. 

 

Let's compare Ash to Rhino, shall we?  Rhino can be just as mobile as Ash with his S2 helmet.  Rhino is also far tankier than Ash.  But what about abilities?  Well, Rhino gets to be immune to all stun effects, gets extra health, has a massive AoE nuke which also stuns all enemies for an extended duration, and he also gets to buff all of his damage by 50%.  What a lucky guy.  And now for Ash.  He has....  a heavily damaging single-target attack, a highly limited mobility tool which basically stuns him for 1 second, and an AoE nuke with a target cap and an extremely slow activation time.  So in other words...  Ash is utter **** compared to Rhino, in every possible way.  Seriously, give me one thing that Ash can do better. 

so, you want Ash to be the new old Rhino? Thats what you want?

Ash's 1 is one of the strongest ingame, his teleport could need a change, but the rest? Fine. he is not a tank, loki is not a tank, they are cloakers!

[Phoenix86]

Because it's "Invisibility", not "Invincibility"

 

this, if you by chance ever success to become invisible and i punch your "invisible face" you will still get hurt, no matter invisibility or not.

[EganMC]

They nerfed invisibility?

I didn't even notice.