The Thirst To Nerf. Why?

[Kalenath]

educated people called for a buff to old weapon. not nerf the new one. This way everyone's happy. Too bad not too many people can think of it.

 

That would require that people THINK.

 

Not going to happen.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Get me the matric to support your claim first then we will talk. This is nothing but claiming that "minority" complaining about game balance. So far, the number and the math are true. Soma is available in the market without artificial restriction and come with 2V slots, Point strike isn't exactly hard to find, Vital sense is dropped from Io/Callisto as defense reward quite frequently (I skipped at least 5 of them today). Players can use starting weapon to get these components quite easily.

Is there anything about Soma that is hard to find? Hammershot is pretty much optional.

New players can get roughly 50-60 damage per shot in 2/3 of their bullet against light infest in Mercury up to Jupiter. That pretty much cover most basic planets.

Overall, the current direction of Warframe weapon progression is unclear. They keep pumping out DPS monster that don't really require much investment to reach potential but placing no restriction upon them. While Scott expressed his opinion on weapon tier in livestream, this is the opposite of what progression should be. Did new players in Diablo2 get unique sword with 1000 DPS upon arriving at the rogue encampment in act 1?

Weapon balance is now depending on DE's direction on progression. Since the introduction of Clantech weapon, there have been a lot of issues rising from the community about this direction we're heading toward. The change of sidegrade philosophy into upgrade philosophy brought nothing but trouble, as far s I can see. Balance is still required to create true choices for the players without bringing powercreep into the big picture.

 

Then they should lock Soma at mastery lvl 4-5 and do the same stuff for other weapons that feel "too powerful".

 

As for clan weapons - I just don't know what to think. Half of them are like best weapons in the game, half are the worst kind of garbage possible. I know lots of game companies suck at balancing nowadays (Bioware for example), but still - even if Warframe is beta, guys need to spend more time to balance the stuff. If Soma was a high-tier assault rifle and had mastery level 5, then it would be ok. If it isn't - why the hell it was released at its current state?

[Dasmir]

100% more damage isn't raw number?

150% crit chance isn't raw number?

 

n7snk's point is mod is the key to weapon efficiency. Without mods, our weapons won't go anywhere near the power they are having. Think Soma without Hammershot/point strike/vital sense, it wouldn't be this powerful. Sure, base stat seems good but without mod to boost them, they are nothing.

 

It's a different take on balance. Mod in n7snk's idea is equipment that change how weapons operate or increase efficiency without increasing raw stat. Reduce recoil mod and silencer mods are good examples. 

 

If the weapons has 1 damage and 0.1% critical chance ? mmmmmmmmmm ?

[neKroMancer]

Then they should lock Soma at mastery lvl 4-5 and do the same stuff for other weapons that feel "too powerful".

 

As for clan weapons - I just don't know what to think. Half of them are like best weapons in the game, half are the worst kind of garbage possible. I know lots of game companies suck at balancing nowadays (Bioware for example), but still - even if Warframe is beta, guys need to spend more time to balance the stuff. If Soma was a high-tier assault rifle and had mastery level 5, then it would be ok. If it isn't - why the hell it was released at its current state?

I think BW did a passable job with balancing ME3MP. They managed to create a fairly balanced game after a full year of balance change. Consider that it's their first game that require this kind of work, I have to say that it's alright.

To be frank, I think DE has loss its way since the philosophy change. They want everyone to access new weapons but at the same time want to use upgrade philosophy as well. These two things don't mix well.

However, even locking new powerful weapons behind mastery rank won't keep them from balance change. It's just create multiple layers of sidegrade, one layer for one mastery rank. DE has to find a value in which they can use to calculate the weapon performance and stick with it until it breaks.

Look like they have found nothing of sort yet. Sad but true story.

[neKroMancer]

If the weapons has 1 damage and 0.1% critical chance ? mmmmmmmmmm ?

If enemy has 1 health?

Power of each items in the game is comparative in term of balance. You can pick a sword out of a chest that deals 5 damage per swing but you don't know whether it's going to be effective or not until you know the enemies' HP. It could be crap (bandit has 25 HP) or it could OHK all bandits in the nearby village (bandit has 1 HP).

n7snk's point is mod bring nothing but numerical increase and inflate the game's number. It drives the game toward higher planets and, ultimately, lack of choice for player. You MUST get these mods or get killed. Mod slots that can be used in a more creative manner are lowered.

[LazyKnight]

n7snk's point is mod bring nothing but numerical increase and inflate the game's number. It drives the game toward higher planets and, ultimately, lack of choice for player. You MUST get these mods or get killed. Mod slots that can be used in a more creative manner are lowered.

This game has no end game or goals, people are asking for end game content and without goals it leads to a form of stagnation that kills game faster. No data or studies has shown that power creep kills games with most of the longest living games clear violators of power creep. That video that keeps getting posted on these forums is a load of crap that has no backing in reality. 

Edited September 17, 2013 by LazyKnight

[notionphil]

Why there weren't  any whinegirls crying for BFG nerf in Doom/minigun nerf in Serious Sam and etc. back in the old days? Because people understood those things were freaking rare

 

Yes, when they are rare, you don't see the whines as much. See any 'Nerf Flux' threads?  No, bc its equally rare and powerful.

 

When super-powered gear is literally given away for free, like the Strun Wraith, or easily attainable like the Soma/Nova, then you'll see people who actually care about game balance (and not just MORE SPLOSIONS) complain.

[Malaheart]

educated people called for a buff to old weapon. not nerf the new one. This way everyone's happy. Too bad not too many people can think of it.

 

Those who understand game design know that both buffs and nerfs are needed to balance a game. There will always be a better weapon on the horizon, do we really want to move the bar up every time one is released? The logical solution would be to bring the outliers down (or up) to the level of expected damage, balancing the game in the process.

[Davoodoo]

If i like bolto then im fine cause i have acrid which is straight upgrade, fine its good. However if i liked aklato then im pretty screwed cause acrid feels nothing like aklatos. Atm only pistols worth anything are acrid, despairs, broncos, vipers and vastos and even from this list acrid is superior to all. I shouldnt be punished for not liking any gun from this list, this is why i think why i think that acird should be brought in line with other guns or in short, nerfed. Sidegrades are good option when you have many weapon types as each gun will have its unique feel and they will still perform at same or at least similiar level. Tree progression system works best in generic fpses which have 10 models of same 30 mag assault rifle with low recoil, then you can just set sliders on dmg, rof and accuracy and have better gun, all guns will still have their unique(one and only tbh) feeling. 

 

Also if you buff everything except acrid then a) it will take too much effort b) it will ruin game difficulty

Tiered system is good way to go as long as each weapon will get their t2 t3 and further variants, however acrid is too powerful even for t2 weapon(same goes for wraith yet its still weaker than acrid)

Edited September 17, 2013 by Davoodoo

[LazyKnight]

Those who understand game design know that both buffs and nerfs are needed to balance a game. There will always be a better weapon on the horizon, do we really want to move the bar up every time one is released? The logical solution would be to bring the outliers down (or up) to the level of expected damage, balancing the game in the process.

The problem that DE has requires them to define a bar and making sure all weapons can met it. Weapons in the Braton family, latron family and numerous other are terrible past level 40+ unless 4 forma and a catalyst are used(their damage is pathetic and they can't keep up with health inflation let alone armor).

 

Many weapon fall clear under the basic requirements the game has set. Weapons like Latron prime might be better than a latron, but both are still terrible weapons on anything higher than a t2 void mission. People think that a Latron prime is good because of their time investment they spent obtaining it, but if they critiqued it based on its merits they would come to a different conclusion.

 

Soma isn't Op compared to what is in game to use the weapon on. The problem is the other primarily weapon are horrid making Soma standout as good. There are a handful of good primary weapons that include: Flux rifle, Lanka, Vandal Snipetron, Wraith and Sobek(I might have missed 1 or 2 weapons). The other primary weapons are not good weapons and are useful for mastery or novelty purpose only.

 

I wish people would stop calling a weapon OP based on another weapon, but instead asked if it trivialized the challenge of the game. I would argue that Ogris is a great offender than most because of having an AOE weapons allows the player to dispatch a crowd. Nova, banshee and the other AOE frames can empty entire rooms with a press of a key and I fail to see how that is balanced at all under any context since it trivializes the game.

Edited September 17, 2013 by LazyKnight

[GottFaust]

The common reason is, "I've never used that weapon and I don't have to patience to potato and mod my own properly, so make that other guy's weapon weak as mine." At least that's what I've gathered from reading around the forums.

Pretty much this.

"That clan/prime/exclusive weapon is better than my generic, easy to obtain, starter weapon regardless of the fact that it is significantly harder or literally impossible to acquire past the event it was a reward for?!?!?! OMG! I can't get it anymore or am not willing to put in the effort to get it: Nerf Nao!"

Edited September 17, 2013 by GottFaust

[Malaheart]

That is why the first step is to define WHERE you want the bar to be as a developer. Right now they have set is so that the new weapons can deal with the current armor system that DE has in place. Something the older weapons could not do. I think we all agree here most weapons do need buffs to even be viable in current content as it is now. But if that was to happen, all weapons were brought up to the level of weapons such as the Soma (great at level 100 enemies, just have to aim) then what happens when the new armor system is introduced? What do we do when we now vastly overpower the content? Do we scale the enemies up or do we bring our damage down? I say we bring the damage down. As it is right now warframes' damaging abilities suffer in even mid level content (all save for Nova really). Do we move there damage up also? What about melee? My point is most of the older warframes and weapons are fairly balanced when it come to where the damage bar is. It may be too low current content, but how will if fair after the armor system fix?

 

Anyway my point is this, the weapon that people are all currently calling overpowered are balanced to overcome a flawed system. after that system is fixed they will be more powerful than ever. Instead of having DE go through and buff EVERY warframe, almost EVERY weapon, and EVERY enemy. Why not just set the bar of expectation at a reasonable level. DE should pick a level that they want the power to be and balance around that. So instead of having only a few weapons viable lets make them all.

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

They are changing the damage system, if they make everything up to the same bar it is not complex to makes NPC able to absorb it. It is far easier for DE to make NPC more like the new Golem boss that takes 1-20 damage from all damage types even with highest level mods. The problem is right now they have one of the worst(likely being change based on what Steve was talking about) resistance/armor system of any game I have played in years.

 

I hope DE considered doing something like this: Changing the damage formal could include making elemental mods no longer scale of serration thus lowering damage growth without getting rid of the current mod system. They need to scale back mods so everything is based off of the base weapon stats as a percentage increase of base, but not multiplied off of serration. This would make serration only increase bullet(or whatever type) if inserted into a gun and an AP mod would be a 90% off of base.

 

Anyway my point is this, the weapon that people are all currently calling overpowered are balanced to overcome a flawed system. after that system is fixed they will be more powerful than ever. Instead of having DE go through and buff EVERY warframe, almost EVERY weapon, and EVERY enemy. Why not just set the bar of expectation at a reasonable level. DE should pick a level that they want the power to be and balance around that. So instead of having only a few weapons viable lets make them all.

I could balance the weapons with nothing more than an excel table and I am sure that DE has multiple qualified people that can do math. Weapons are fairly simple to balance because it is predictable how people will use them. One person(likely Scott) could easily make a DPS chart similar to GottFaust, but with 100% accurate in game values and make weapons fit in a full workday.

 

However, warframe's skills are not simple at all and DE has given too many frames AOE nukes. This leads to spamming and general easy mode of gameplay and DE should likely look at MMO like Terra on how to balance powers.

Edited September 17, 2013 by LazyKnight

[NalkorRN]

If the weapons has 1 damage and 0.1% critical chance ? mmmmmmmmmm ?

Then it's the Embolist.

[Malaheart]

They are changing the damage system, if they make everything up to the same bar it is not complex to makes NPC able to absorb it. It is far easier for DE to make NPC more like the new Golem boss that takes 1-20 damage from all damage types even with highest level mods. The problem is right now they have one of the worst(likely being change based on what Steve was talking about) resistance/armor system of any game I have played in years.

 

I hope DE considered doing something like this: Changing the damage formal could include making elemental mods no longer scale of serration thus lowering damage growth without getting rid of the current mod system. They need to scale back mods so everything is based off of the base weapon stats as a percentage increase of base, but not multiplied off of serration. This would make serration only increase bullet(or whatever type) if inserted into a gun and an AP mod would be a 90% off of base.

 

I could balance the weapons with nothing more than an excel table and I am sure that DE has multiple qualified people that can do math. Weapons are fairly simple to balance because it is predictable how people will use them. One person(likely Scott) could easily make a DPS chart similar to GottFaust, but with 100% accurate in game values and make weapons fit in a full workday.

 

However, warframe's skills are not simple at all and DE has given too many frames AOE nukes. This leads to spamming and general easy mode of gameplay and DE should likely look at MMO like Terra on how to balance powers.

 

Good points and I agree with you about the mod system, honestly Serration and Split Chamber are the two biggest problems when it comes to the damage bloat in Warframe, but capping the damage enemies take is not scaling the enemies, it is going against the fundamental mechanics of the game. Also I never said balancing the game would be that hard. But I get the opinion from listening to people in the forums that the majority think that if just the Acrid and similar top end weapons were nerfed Warframe would be balanced.This is untrue, just as untrue as if every weapon was buffed. The problem runs much deeper than just "The acrid is op so X".

 

To your point about powers, almost all of the damaging powers except for ults are lack luster, not anywhere near worth the energy cost of casting them. I would like to see them do more damage than guns due to how limited they are when compared to a bullet. When it comes to ults, I again again agree, I believe ults have gotten out of hand. Not every warframe needs to have a AoE damage ult like it is now. I would personally like to see more support ults such as Shadows of the Dead in stead of "press 4 to kill enemies in x range". Honestly Molecular Prime was just the final straw, it was the power that finally got too out of hand.

[Dasmir]

Then it's the Embolist.

 

That was a cruel joke sir, well done.

[Jeetza]

I don't know, There should be some weapons that should be better than other purely for the fact they cost more to build, harder to obtain, etc..

 

But in recent times the number of Nerf-herders has been outrageous.  With the addition of new frames and weapons there will always be the ones that insist on not spending a single dime on the game and then insist they get everything that paying customers have, and if not then want what they have reduced to the point if it being as useless as what they carry around so you don't out perform them.

 

Sure there is always the fear of a power creep, or creeps that fear power, take your pick. But the game ultimately gets hard the further you go in the solar system, so why wouldn't you want a weapon or frame that can make you last longer. It's not like i play level 1 missions with rank 30 weapons to show off, I'm out there with full ranked weapons playing T3 voids or endless defense....

 

All in all, don't touch my stuff I paid for.

I couldn't agree more. Love the part about power creep you mentioned.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Yes, when they are rare, you don't see the whines as much. See any 'Nerf Flux' threads?  No, bc its equally rare and powerful.

 

When super-powered gear is literally given away for free, like the Strun Wraith, or easily attainable like the Soma/Nova, then you'll see people who actually care about game balance (and not just MORE SPLOSIONS) complain.

 

Lol, Nova is easy to get. Again, you are speaking for yourself. 

Edited September 18, 2013 by 3XT3RM1NATUS

[Dead_Rabbits]

Solution to power creep, make enemies tougher.

[NalkorRN]

Solution to power creep, make enemies tougher.

That actually only makes power creep even worse.

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

 

this sounds good, but this is a major issue that has killed games in the past. things escalate too much, and the numbers get too big to balance. things get out of hand, the Developer panics, any future content is likely to be hurt by the stage of the game, and is less enjoyable therefore.

 

i direct your attention to Dungeon Defenders. at first it was great! the game was very fair across the board, it was challenging, and it had unique concepts and features (the most important thing to attract players). additional content at first was working reasonably, it was shinier with more stats than previous, but it was still keeping in check. 

then, a mistake, players were getting loot that was way higher than was intended, and the choice was made to escalate the game with the accidental content, rather than recalling that unintentional content, because people would like numbers getting bigger over time more than items being deleted.

but, from then on, content kept scaling up to asinine levels, equipment tried to keep up with it, and in several months time, it was a completely different game. enemies that had ~30,000HP suddenly had 60,000,000HP, weapons with ~2000dmg suddenly had 150,000dmg, tower stats went from an average of ~700 to ~9000 - and the entire game collapsed on itself, because the entire game got out of hand.

i soldiered through the major 'shooting in the foot' for a long time, until other issues with the less than respectable parts of the Dungeon Defenders community started to succeed in tearing down the trading community, which was the endgame, because there was nothing left to do. 

 

if Warframe wishes to be a successful game, mistakes like this that have happened with others, should be learned from, not copied. Warframe is even more at risk than some other titles that have fallen were, because Warframe is F2P. and that is the most Volatile form a game can be presented in. it's the most delicate and difficult to pull off, but also potentially the most profitable business model. 

I agree that buffing to much can lead to catastrophe, but it's not always the case, right? Your Dungeon Defender case is really supremely going out of hand. But it's mainly because developer of that game choose the wrong direction to address that problem. 

 

That would require that people THINK.

 

Not going to happen.

Oh,right. I really forgot that many people hasn't acquired the ability to think. Sorry. 

 

In my opinion, Warframe balancing used to be fine. There was actually a 'bar' that set damage and enemies' HP in coordinance. One of the reasons that start the "nerf-warfare" is THE GIVEAWAY EXCLUSIVE SUPER WEAPON. That two weapons alone is the cause of mass nerfing this and buffing that trend, because those two weapon doesn't follow the DPS trend of other original weapons. I don't want to bad-mouthed those weapons, since I got it all, but seriously, people are jealous and lazy creature. When there's a free giveaway weapon, there are 2 responses. Those who didn't get it scream in tears and shrieking for nerf, since they didn't get it - it ain't fair, why others have good things while I don't?. The second response is far more stupid. They started to compare the new weapon to the old trusty ones and got angry because of all the hard work they spent on the old weapon came to nought. They are looking for justice....which doesn't exist anywhere, be it real world or gaming world. One should accept the fact that some weapon should,and will, be far more superior than the others.

 

The reasons I suggest a buff to old weapon is well-grounded, since old weapons has the stats that fit the game long time ago. The new weapon are fitting in with the game current situation, while old weapon couldn't keep up. Take latron for example. 40 damage. 45 for primed version. Then, Vasto came out. 50 damage. Revolver usually have high damage, but when it exceed assault rifle(that fires even slower), there's something very wrong with that. And no buff came to latron family. Most snipers has a nearly 3 times more damage than latron per shot. Shotgun current situation is quite fine when compare with snipers, since it could deal 100-ish damage in close range. Rifle mods are also at fault here. I HONESTLY CAN'T UNDER STAND THE REASONS WHY SERRATION IS +15%per rank WHILE HORNET STRIKE IS +20%per rank. No logical explanation for this, IMO. And that Split chamber. 90% multi-shot while other weapon genres sport 120% multi-shot???? I'm at lost.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek

[LazerusKI]

also a weird thing that we have is, that our secondarys are far superior to our primarys.

normally you shoot smaller enemys with your sidearm until the big-guys spawn. then you switch to your big primary.

here it is different - oh crap, my Gorgon, Snipetron, whatever deals not enough damage anymore - switch to Acrid.

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

also a weird thing that we have is, that our secondarys are far superior to our primarys.

normally you shoot smaller enemys with your sidearm until the big-guys spawn. then you switch to your big primary.

here it is different - oh crap, my Gorgon, Snipetron, whatever deals not enough damage anymore - switch to Acrid.

From my point of view, Primaries in this game just has more ammos and have to hold with two hands. Secondaries is smaller and has smaller ammo capacity. End of story. The damage is not given into consideration.

[Saenol]

The common reason is, "I've never used that weapon and I don't have to patience to potato and mod my own properly, so make that other guy's weapon weak as mine." At least that's what I've gathered from reading around the forums.

 

I've never advocated nerfing a weapon I did not rank to 30 at least twice and potato.

 

How could I know it was worthy of a nerf without really experiencing it myself?

 

Most of the weapons I want nerfed are ones I like, and if I did not like them they probably wouldn't need a nerf.

 

educated people called for a buff to old weapon. not nerf the new one. This way everyone's happy.

 

Nerfs make me happier than buffs.

 

I do not like bigger numbers just for the sake of bigger numbers. I do not like inflationary creep.

 

Less is more.

 

Occam's Razor.

 

NOTHING IS OP TILL I CAN SOLO PLUTO WITH IT....STOP THE NERFS!

 

I can solo Pluto with almost any frame and almost any combination of weapons, so can most people who have more than 100 hours under their belts (unless they are gamepad users).

 

Look at the Soma, for example. Now throw it to a casual player who has played this game for a month. This one, who doesn't have Vital Sense and Hammer Shot, because they are rare as F***. This one, who has only level 5 Serration because he doesn't have credits and fusion cores to upgrade it. This one, who can't forma and potato every single gun because alerts are very rare and it is pretty much impossible without paying plat. What will he say about Soma? He will say it's a PoS and stick with a more all-around gun like Braton or Boltor.

 

Now use your brain and stop building the game around yourself like a selfish F***. If you have the ability to mod your gun to the full, you freaking deserved it to be powerful. 

 

Soma is generally better than Braton with the only difference in mods being Vital Sense and Point Strike, neither of which are that hard to get. Point Strike is the really important one, and that is a wave 5 or 10 reward on the very first defense mission in the game.

 

Having the ability to mod weapons to their utmost does nothing to change the base weapon. Fully modded, a handful of weapons are very good, but relative to these, most others are still useless crap.

 

So, taking your last sentience into consideration, if I mod my Gorgon and Sicarus to the full, why can't they compete? Why don't they even have the vaguest niche? Because some weapons are way the hell more powerful than they should be and they overshadow everything else.

 

Do you ever see a game balance itself around tutorial stage?

 

This would be an improvement over being balanced around everything being pretty much the opposite of what's logical and believable.

 

The problem that DE has requires them to define a bar and making sure all weapons can met it. Weapons in the Braton family, latron family and numerous other are terrible past level 40+ unless 4 forma and a catalyst are used(their damage is pathetic and they can't keep up with health inflation let alone armor).

 

Many weapon fall clear under the basic requirements the game has set. Weapons like Latron prime might be better than a latron, but both are still terrible weapons on anything higher than a t2 void mission. People think that a Latron prime is good because of their time investment they spent obtaining it, but if they critiqued it based on its merits they would come to a different conclusion.

 

Soma isn't Op compared to what is in game to use the weapon on. The problem is the other primarily weapon are horrid making Soma standout as good. There are a handful of good primary weapons that include: Flux rifle, Lanka, Vandal Snipetron, Wraith and Sobek(I might have missed 1 or 2 weapons). The other primary weapons are not good weapons and are useful for mastery or novelty purpose only.

 

I wish people would stop calling a weapon OP based on another weapon, but instead asked if it trivialized the challenge of the game. I would argue that Ogris is a great offender than most because of having an AOE weapons allows the player to dispatch a crowd. Nova, banshee and the other AOE frames can empty entire rooms with a press of a key and I fail to see how that is balanced at all under any context since it trivializes the game.

 

Everything trivializes the challenge of the game, even after the massive and unnecessary buff they gave to the ranks in all the later planets. The game is not particularly hard, even with most "mastery only" weapons. I can kill an entire crowd of mid to late game enemies with puncture mods on a Gorgon.

 

The Soma can easily annihilate anything outside of high wave Endless Defense or T3 Defense, and the game should not be balanced around content that only the top 5% can even see (especially when it's boring and repetitive content).

 

The damage is not given into consideration.

 

It should be. The other factors you mention are meaningless without taking damage into consideration.

 

Secondaries in general are overpowered, and their mods inexplicably go out of the way to exaggerate this.

[S3ven0F13]

Ive actually potatoed my soma and fully modded it and its really not that powerful. ive had to rely on my acrid a few times cause it fell short. Until damage 2.0 its more mid teir cause in level 100+ maps right now tis kinda garbage compared to the armor ignoring weapons.........My Twin Grimlins out dps my Soma in those conditions.

 

so it doesn't need to be nerf'd but there is a definite demand to nerf weapons coming from the community, especially if they work'd so hard on a lower tier weapon...... but its really the persons fault, so why try to make others suffer cause you think you gotta potato every weapon you get? save your potatoes for that one weapon you get that performs well and feels good to use and you wont be in this butthurt position. well thats my opinion on it.....

 

Example: Ill never potato or forma my Kestrel, but its still my favorite throwing weapon cause it rag dolls. i dont need to kill with it. just make sure they don't kill me. same theory can apply to a lot of other weapons. (Im not arguing im just trying to help, maybe this is something to think about before you invest so much?)