Mild yet effective ember rework

[VenomousValentine]

I think I have figured out a way to make ember viable in all level gameplay while barely changing her.

The key here? Her passive. Everyone knows its garbage.

I suggest for a new passive, make it so any fire proc her or her buffed allies (either via her accelerant or her fireball frenzy augment) progressively deal more damage as long as the fire proc is applied (speed of ramp based on power strength.)

Status procs last around seven seconds, so say you apply a fire proc for 1000 damage with 100% power strength on ember, each tick will have its damage increased by 20% (obviously subject to change, maybe 10% would be more reasonable)
Tick 1: 1000 damage
Tick 2: 1200 damage
Tick 3: 1440
Tick 4: 1728
Etc.

 

This way, you will barely have to change her kit at all, still have her be viable late game, but not an early game walk through the level and win frame.
This will also allow her to continue to fill her role as a buff frame which is currently all she's viable as now. And I use the term viable loosely.

[(PSN)MyUnhealthyHobby]

If my Rework idea doesn’t work out then I could see this working out fairly well.

[(PSN)MyUnhealthyHobby]

13 hours ago, VenomousValentine said:

I think I have figured out a way to make ember viable in all level gameplay while barely changing her.

The key here? Her passive. Everyone knows its garbage.

I suggest for a new passive, make it so any fire proc her or her buffed allies (either via her accelerant or her fireball frenzy augment) progressively deal more damage as long as the fire proc is applied (speed of ramp based on power strength.)

Status procs last around seven seconds, so say you apply a fire proc for 1000 damage with 100% power strength on ember, each tick will have its damage increased by 20% (obviously subject to change, maybe 10% would be more reasonable)
Tick 1: 1000 damage
Tick 2: 1200 damage
Tick 3: 1440
Tick 4: 1728
Etc.

 

This way, you will barely have to change her kit at all, still have her be viable late game, but not an early game walk through the level and win frame.
This will also allow her to continue to fill her role as a buff frame which is currently all she's viable as now. And I use the term viable loosely.

How would her ability scaling work with your suggestion though? 

[VenomousValentine]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MyUnhealthyHobby said:

How would her ability scaling work with your suggestion though? 

Well supposing 100% power strength is a 10% increase per tick,  every added 1% power strength could equate to 2% extra damage per tick.

[PortalsFTW]

Doubling nothing is still nothing. Simply increasing the damage of her abilities does not seem to help much, as seen in the world on fire rework. Just sitting there waiting for a heat proc to kill an enemy isnt going to happen much in high level play. While the passive you suggested is much better than her current one, it does not make ember "viable in all level of gameplay." Ember still has:

-low survivability

-bad cc compared to other frames

-very low damage against high level enemies, especially those with armour

-high energy consumption with no means to restore energy

-very short ability range

-overall just outdated mechanics. Fire blast is a joke and world on fire continues to be a low level clearer while sucking at high level. An extensive rework is necessary.

[VenomousValentine]

16 hours ago, PortalsFTW said:

Doubling nothing is still nothing. Simply increasing the damage of her abilities does not seem to help much, as seen in the world on fire rework. Just sitting there waiting for a heat proc to kill an enemy isnt going to happen much in high level play. While the passive you suggested is much better than her current one, it does not make ember "viable in all level of gameplay." Ember still has:

-low survivability

-bad cc compared to other frames

-very low damage against high level enemies, especially those with armour

-high energy consumption with no means to restore energy

-very short ability range

-overall just outdated mechanics. Fire blast is a joke and world on fire continues to be a low level clearer while sucking at high level. An extensive rework is necessary.

It's not doubling her damage, it's making her a strong buffer with infinitely scaling damage.

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, VenomousValentine said:

It's not doubling her damage, it's making her a strong buffer with infinitely scaling damage.

As you said a heat status last 7 seconds so how exactly do you want to make it infinte scaling?

Some question for better understanding:

1.) Do additional procs on the same target take over the buffed value?

2.) Does this buff only counts for the specific enemy you apply it on or other enemies in an area of effect?

3.) Does this work for damage dealt with abilities only or for weapons as well?

4.) Can you lose the buff/stacking if you don´t ignite enemies constantly?

5.) What happens if you or your teamates kill the enemies very fast without getting the chance to apply heat procs over a longer period of time?

Also the way your damage ramp up works can be summend up with base damage times multiplier (20% in this case) to the power of tick duration

BD x 1.2 ^ T

It´s proportional scaling wich means it will take a while until your damage scales to an reasonable amount. Even after the 7 seconds until your heat proc wears off you only get

1000 x 1.2 ^ 7 = 3583 (~ 3.6 multiplier) which is essentially nothing for waiting this long.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Arcira

[VenomousValentine]

3 minutes ago, Arcira said:

As you said a heat status last 7 seconds so how exactly do you want to make it infinte scaling?

Some question for better understanding:

1.) Do additional procs on the same target take over the buffed value?

2.) Does this buff only counts for the specific enemy you apply it on or other enemies in an area of effect?

3.) Does this work for damage dealt with abilities only or for weapons as well?

4.) Can you lose the buff/stacking if you don´t ignite enemies constantly?

5.) What happens if you or your teamates kill the enemies very fast without getting the chance to apply heat procs over a longer period of time?

Also the way your damage ramp up works can be summend up with base damage times multiplier (20% in this case) to the power of tick duration

BD x 1.2 ^ T

It´s proportional scaling wich means it will take a while until your damage scales to an reasonable amount. Even after the 7 seconds until your heat proc wears off you only get

1000 x 1.2 ^ 7 = 3583 (~ 3.6 multiplier) which is essentially nothing for waiting this long.

1) Infinite scaling if the proc is extended by reapplying it before it wears off.

2)The allies the buffs are applied to

3)Damage dealt with weapons, if buffed by her abilities like fireball frenzy, fireblast, and accelerant.

4)Yes

5)The enemies are dead and the job is done? What's the problem here?

And on your final point, just tweak it higher then.

 

[Arcira]

1 minute ago, VenomousValentine said:

1) Infinite scaling if the proc is extended by reapplying it before it wears off.

2)The allies the buffs are applied to

3)Damage dealt with weapons, if buffed by her abilities like fireball frenzy, fireblast, and accelerant.

4)Yes

5)The enemies are dead and the job is done? What's the problem here?

And on your final point, just tweak it higher then.

 

Ok essentially it´s a single target Saryn like passive effect.

Some concers I have with this:

1.) Still a proportional scaling passive. Even with something like Ignis the ramp up will take a while until noticeable (You can kill a lv 160 heavy gunner within ~3 seconds with a corrosive moded Ignis). In general why would you use this instead of things like a Covert Lethality setup which can kill priority targets way faster if you really need this. A lot warframes/weapons can kill several lv 150+ enemies at once in seconds.

2.) Doesn´t solve the problem with her ability damage scaling. You´d need an insane buff value in order to increase her dps in a reasonable amount of time and weapons would still outperform them.

3.) Doesn´t work against enemies it might actually matter. Eidolon, Profit Taker, Wolf, etc are immune to status effects.

Sorry but I don´t really see this would improve her to be more viable outside of star chart maps. If you could stack the buff over the duration of the mission without loosing it this might be usefull for high level endless missions.

You need a bit more than some minor changes in order to make ember strong. Currently the main problems I see are: heat damage is very weak compare to meta elements, ability scaling, survivability, augments can screw up other players builds and don´t benefit combined elements.

[VenomousValentine]

3 minutes ago, Arcira said:

Ok essentially it´s a single target Saryn like passive effect.

Some concers I have with this:

1.) Still a proportional scaling passive. Even with something like Ignis the ramp up will take a while until noticeable (You can kill a lv 160 heavy gunner within ~3 seconds with a corrosive moded Ignis). In general why would you use this instead of things like a Covert Lethality setup which can kill priority targets way faster if you really need this. A lot warframes/weapons can kill several lv 150+ enemies at once in seconds.

2.) Doesn´t solve the problem with her ability damage scaling. You´d need an insane buff value in order to increase her dps in a reasonable amount of time and weapons would still outperform them.

3.) Doesn´t work against enemies it might actually matter. Eidolon, Profit Taker, Wolf, etc are immune to status effects.

Sorry but I don´t really see this would improve her to be more viable outside of star chart maps. If you could stack the buff over the duration of the mission without loosing it this might be usefull for high level endless missions.

You need a bit more than some minor changes in order to make ember strong. Currently the main problems I see are: heat damage is very weak compare to meta elements, ability scaling, survivability, augments can screw up other players builds and don´t benefit combined elements.

This is FOR standard gameplay like arbitration and endurance run viability. Again, tweak the numbers until it's reasonable.
And given how her ult and fireblast works I wouldn't call it single target. And I wouldnt compare her to saryn since you can apply the buff to allies.

Why the hell would it need to work on eidolons or profit taker?

Also covert lethality is not very good..
This would essentially turn her into a gun frame/buffer, while still making her abilities scale.

[Arcira]

3 minutes ago, VenomousValentine said:

This is FOR standard gameplay like arbitration and endurance run viability. Again, tweak the numbers until it's reasonable.
And given how her ult and fireblast works I wouldn't call it single target. And I wouldnt compare her to saryn since you can apply the buff to allies.

Why the hell would it need to work on eidolons or profit taker? 

Also covert lethality is not very good..
This would essentially turn her into a gun frame/buffer, while still making her abilities scale.

The thing is her abilities would be pointless still due to there lackluster base damage and long ramp up time of the passive. You´d need to ignite an enemy for more than 10 seconds with a 50% increased damage multiplier per tick in order to get somewhat similar base dps of a pure heat modded weapon. Not going into detail here but it´s unlikely changes in warframe kit´s will solve this issue. They will either be over or underpowered due to certain basic mechanics in warframe.

So the thing that remains is buffing weapons with heat damage. Best case scenario you will achieve heat modded weapons are equally effective as meta weapons (which is already the case with an accelerant focused builds and not really one of the issues Ember has) simply because there isn´t really anything faster than almost instantly. You will never have a problem in current "high level" activities due to lack of weapon dps.

In summary: Nothing that will change her viability in ESO (aoe nuke), arbitraions (survivability/utility), Eidolon hunt (abilities that arn´t affected by immunities), endurance runs (survivability/absolute damage that ignores scaling).