New war speculation

[(PSN)Nighthawk2060]

Hear me out. The sentients claim the orb mothers and eidolon, bring them back to the tau system, along with most of the pieces of eidolon (Thats what i assume the plains sentient was named cause......plains of eidolon) they revive eidolon, he tells era and natah about kuva, natah, with the knowledge of our adventures, she remembers the kuva fortress, and sends era and eidolon to attack the unum, and natah attacks the kuva fortress. 

[ant99999]

There is no evidence in the lore that a Sentient mind can be revived. Quite the opposite actually. The Sentient have no presence in the Void, thus they can't be manifested in a different body through Continuity or Transference. Although some do speculate they posess a kind of artificial Oro, I doubt it simply because Oro is a Void construct and the Void doesn't combine with Sentient very well.

Judging by the Kuva Siphon dialogue the Lotus (and consequently Natah) already knows something about Kuva but hides from us. That  means she probably doesn't need anyone else to know about the Fortress and healing power it posesses.

But returning to the Sentient and Void relationship. From Natah in her dialogue during Ropalolyst fight hints of being resistant to the Void because of being somehow changed. That could probably mean that the Orokin infused her with some kind of an Oro-like object (likely akin to the Cephalon technology) so that she are not harmed by the Void (and she indeed spent centuries in the Void beneath the surface of Lua). Additionally her dialogue suggests she is using Ropalolyst to study the Tenno and probably find a way to recreate that Void infusion. Amalgams were also an attempt to negate their curse. The Sentient are looking for the cure of their flaw rather than Kuva to heal.

The reason for this is that the ammount of Kuva is finite, if a Sentient is unable to reproduce because of Void exposure it can only use Kuva only so much time. Instead they are planning to fix their flaw completely and use their natural abilities to breed and regenerate.

On top of that Kuva Fortress is one of the most (if not the most) guarded objects in the system. It is accompanied by Grineer warships and lesser spacecraft and has devastating weaponry of its own. It is also heavily guarded inside by the most advanced Grineer force one can find complemented with Kuva Guardians who can only be exposed by a being posessing Void powers. Finally Kuva Fortress has a Fomorian engine mounted on it which makes it reasonably fast without relying on Solar rails, a technology unavaible to the Sentient.

Not only can the Fortress respond to the Sentient attacks with weapons, it can simply run away from them. Which makes a direct assault on it not worth attempting.

However the Unum Tower does indeed seem to be a primary target for the Sentient as shown in the Teaser. It is stationary and only relies on Quills' attack forces and the Tenno for defence.

By the way who the hell is era?

Edited August 6, 2019 by ant99999
Typo

[HugintheCrow]

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

By the way who the hell is era?

Probably their mary sue oc.

[evilChair]

38 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

There is no evidence in the lore that a Sentient mind can be revived. Quite the opposite actually. The Sentient have no presence in the Void, thus they can't be manifested in a different body through Continuity or Transference. Although some do speculate they posess a kind of artificial Oro, I doubt it simply because Oro is a Void construct and the Void doesn't combine with Sentient very well.

However the Unum Tower does indeed seem to be a primary target for the Sentient as shown in the Teaser. It is stationary and only relies on Quills' attack forces and the Tenno for defence.

By the way who the hell is era?

In the rope fight, Natah says that the "light fades from this one and returns to the rest" which means that the sentient mind is singular and not so much distributed in pieces as much as it is stretched like bubble gum between individual -lysts (lysis means "breaking apart" in greek, so it means that all -lysts are basically Fragments the way Hunhow uses the word). There's probably a higher barrier between Sentients proper, but it's not too high since Natah seems to be completely brainwashed talking about history and family and all that like a very insane person would do. She doesn't speak at all like the Natah you see in the ending of the Sacrifice, and when she says "amalgams" in that one line, it sounds so flat and unenthusiastic (despite that being her master-plan) that she almost seems like a loudspeaker for ＭＯＴＨＥＲ. (Remember that Hunhow was genuinely worried that the Sentient hivemind would reclaim her, so there's a potential Sentient ally against Mother's/Tau forces if he's pissed enough to reconstruct himself.)

The sentient incompatibility with the void may have been resolved a long time ago, in fact. The Lotus, despite being a mimic, had no problem sitting in the void-nested mission control room on Lua until Ballas killed her by popping off the helmet. I suspect that sentient vulnerability is not structural (as in, the void being to sentient flesh is what fire is to paper), but hardwired into the sentients, in the sense that contact with the void will execute deep-wired self-damage instructions. And a mimic, so perfectly adaptable in shape and possibly other deep functions, seems like the perfect kind of sentient to develop immunity to the void. And she did talk to Wally (without the helmet, note that) without mentioning any damage on her part, so... I think it's safe to conclude that Natah so far is the only sentient who is immune to the void, and that could be partly because of the time she spent bound to Margulis' Oro, if Ballas had actually tweaked the Jade Light to both destroy her body and transfer her mind into the helmet. Adaptation to the presence of Oro could also mean creation of Oro, and creating Oro could mean getting resistance to the Void. Another potential conclusion from that is that Natah is herself an Amalgam. There's Margulis' face imprinted as her "second face", a possible artificial Oro formed during the time she made up half of the Lotus, and her amalgamation plan might stem from her own experiences as an Oro/Sentient amalgam, as opposed to Mother's orders, which are "kill all humans".

But the difference between her (and possibly Shadow Stalker) as a successful amalgam and the other ones is that Natah's/Alad's amalgams are flawed in that they're not successful melds. Natah and Shadow Stalker both possess their original traits with minor modifications from the other species, while Gas City amalgams (just look at the Heqet and the Alkonost) are slapdash grafts that are either defective-yet-effective (when Crewmen are used) or powerful but brittle (when Corpus machines are used). Chimeric Ballas is a good example of what's perhaps a non-flawed integration (though he'll probably just end up as just another battalyst).

My money's on the long-term suspicion that has come up ever since CoH that Wally is burrowing through all the Zariman kids' minds, that's to say, that the Operators are slowly becoming corrupted and that they don't even know it. Natah's plan to stop that might make her the questionable hero of the piece after all. If and only if she cancels her obeisance to Mother and goes rogue.

As for the Unum, I'm having this idea that she might be the anti-Wally, the personification of the world of the living. I haven't scanned all the glass fish in PoE but from what I've read so far, it seems that the love-tragedy that Onkko tells about might be about the separation between Wally and the Unum, and it would kinda make sense that they're opposed similars - both cosmic entities who speak into people's minds, one based on the Void, one dripping Kuva (which seem to mutually annihilate if the void-Kesheg/Siphon interactions are anything to go by.).

Well, whatever happens, Natah's here to stay (she's too heavyweight to die), Hunhow might flip sides and side with "Orokin blood" if that's the cost of saving his last kid, we have a chance of getting the actual Margulis back by a helmet-to-cephalon process. Oh, and expect a mass Orokin resurgence when they decide to come outta hiding (looking at you, Maroo, Alad, Biz) and have a grab at the Old Empire. After all, we do have "Orokin" labelled as a faction, and not "Corrupted".

[ant99999]

14 минут назад, evilChair сказал:

In the rope fight, Natah says that the "light fades from this one and returns to the rest" which means that the sentient mind is singular and not so much distributed in pieces as much as it is stretched like bubble gum between individual -lysts

That's right, but only but only for individual Sentients. The Sentient don't have hivemind like Infested do. The fragments of the Sentient from the plains are mindless animals, because the mind of that one was destroyed. If they did in fact have a hivemind, it would take over the control over Eidolons making them finish the work of destroying the Unum.

Ropalolyst is a fragment of exclusively Natah (she refers to it as her flesh), the 'rest' she mentions are her rest fragments like mimics.

19 минут назад, evilChair сказал:

She doesn't speak at all like the Natah you see in the ending of the Sacrifice, and when she says "amalgams" in that one line, it sounds so flat and unenthusiastic (despite that being her master-plan) that she almost seems like a loudspeaker for ＭＯＴＨＥＲ.

She seems allright, it's just Rebecca Ford's bad acting skills (which is kinda widely known), nothing too indepth. Moreover she emphasizes the word 'amalgams' so this seems to be an object of pride for her.

24 минуты назад, evilChair сказал:

The sentient incompatibility with the void may have been resolved a long time ago, in fact. The Lotus, despite being a mimic, had no problem sitting in the void-nested mission control room on Lua until Ballas killed her by popping off the helmet. 

Your great power, your great evil. The voice, the Void, within you. Our ancients still wither at its touch... but have you forgotten Lua? You were saved. But I... I was changed.

To clarify: the part about the incompatibility being fixed is not true, as the older generations still suffer from it. If the newer generations were completely free from it, they would use Tau rail and already would've arrived to Origin System. That's not the case as you see. Although they managed to negate direct destruction of the Void even in older generations, which is proven by Hunhow forcefully stabilizing his drones in the void in Octavia's Anthem, and the Sentient from the Plains being able to retain all its firepower; they still are rendered sterile after the Void exposure, which is again proven by the Plains Sentient lore and Hunhow's dialogue in Natah quest.

Natah confronts herself to other Sentient in that quote above clearly talking about Void resistance. The change she underwent is stated by her to be the difference. The change as far as my theory goes is an artificial Oro the Orokin gave her, but could be something else. Either way that seems to be done on purpose to hold Lotus in the Void not to let other Sentient reach her.

39 минут назад, evilChair сказал:

I suspect that sentient vulnerability is not structural (as in, the void being to sentient flesh is what fire is to paper), but hardwired into the sentients, in the sense that contact with the void will execute deep-wired self-damage instructions. And a mimic, so perfectly adaptable in shape and possibly other deep functions, seems like the perfect kind of sentient to develop immunity to the void.

That's just a theory. Nothing supports that in the game lore. Additionally why then hadn't the Sentient created an army of mimics to invade the Origin System if that's all needed to overcome their curse?

41 минуту назад, evilChair сказал:

And she did talk to Wally (without the helmet, note that) without mentioning any damage on her part, so...

What made you think she did it after she got rid of the helmet?

42 минуты назад, evilChair сказал:

I think it's safe to conclude that Natah so far is the only sentient who is immune to the void

That's the conclusion I've also arrived to, although my argumentation seems to rely more on actual quotes than theoties.

44 минуты назад, evilChair сказал:

Ballas had actually tweaked the Jade Light to both destroy her body and transfer her mind into the helmet

Too much speculation. We don't know much about the Jade Light except that it completely vapourizes the subject. So that's also a theory.

Everything till the end of that paragraph also isn't supported by the lore.

50 минут назад, evilChair сказал:

My money's on the long-term suspicion that has come up ever since CoH that Wally is burrowing through all the Zariman kids' minds, that's to say, that the Operators are slowly becoming corrupted and that they don't even know it. Natah's plan to stop that might make her the questionable hero of the piece after all. If and only if she cancels her obeisance to Mother and goes rogue.

As far as her dialogue goes the only intention of Natah is wiping out the humans for what they have done to her people. She seems to be perfectly like-minded with the other Sentient. As Steve Sinclair mentioned during the Art Pannel I think, Sentient worship the family as an object of religious cult, that allignes perfectly with Natah's behaviour.

54 минуты назад, evilChair сказал:

As for the Unum, I'm having this idea that she might be the anti-Wally, the personification of the world of the living.

I have such suspicion either but we still doesn't have enough info on Unum to say for certain.

58 минут назад, evilChair сказал:

haven't scanned all the glass fish in PoE but from what I've read so far, it seems that the love-tragedy that Onkko tells about might be about the separation between Wally and the Unum, and it would kinda make sense that they're opposed similars - both cosmic entities who speak into people's minds, one based on the Void, one dripping Kuva (which seem to mutually annihilate if the void-Kesheg/Siphon interactions are anything to go by.).

This story seems to be only a legend of two Ostrons, too much honor for them to be birthgivers for such massive entities.

Moreover Wally is clearly stated to be older than stars, a literal eldritch god.

As for Unum, it has only been in some relation with Ostrons for not so long time. Ostrons were a nation of space merchants before making a decision to settle down near the Tower (that is what the legend is about btw, about the Ostrons accepting their new life showed on the story of two lovers).

1 час назад, evilChair сказал:

Well, whatever happens, Natah's here to stay (she's too heavyweight to die)

I'd rather killed her, but ok.

1 час назад, evilChair сказал:

Hunhow might flip sides and side with "Orokin blood" if that's the cost of saving his last kid

Doubt that, Sentient swore to destroy the humans and have a strong reason for that, Hunhow is no exception.

1 час назад, evilChair сказал:

we have a chance of getting the actual Margulis back by a helmet-to-cephalon process.

Maybe, but that would be cruel af towards Natah.

1 час назад, evilChair сказал:

(looking at you, Maroo, Alad, Biz)

Well Alad is ok, why the hell have the other two become the Orokin out of a sudden?

1 час назад, evilChair сказал:

After all, we do have "Orokin" labelled as a faction, and not "Corrupted".

The Neural Sentry is an Orokin weapon thus the faction is Orokin, simple as that.

Theories are great in that there can be thousands of them. But for a conclusion to be achieved there must be a real evidence.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, HugintheCrow said:

Probably their mary sue oc.

They're probably referring to Natah's brother, who shows up at the end of the New War trailer.

[ant99999]

41 минуту назад, TheGodofWiFi сказал:

They're probably referring to Natah's brother, who shows up at the end of the New War trailer.

Ah, that one edgy insectoid son of a..., I understand now. Well it's kinda obvious he's headed for the Unum Tower anyways.

[evilChair]

10 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

That's right, but only but only for individual Sentients. The Sentient don't have hivemind like Infested do. The fragments of the Sentient from the plains are mindless animals, because the mind of that one was destroyed. If they did in fact have a hivemind, it would take over the control over Eidolons making them finish the work of destroying the Unum.

Ropalolyst is a fragment of exclusively Natah (she refers to it as her flesh), the 'rest' she mentions are her rest fragments like mimics.

She seems allright, it's just Rebecca Ford's bad acting skills (which is kinda widely known), nothing too indepth. Moreover she emphasizes the word 'amalgams' so this seems to be an object of pride for her.

Your great power, your great evil. The voice, the Void, within you. Our ancients still wither at its touch... but have you forgotten Lua? You were saved. But I... I was changed.

To clarify: the part about the incompatibility being fixed is not true, as the older generations still suffer from it. If the newer generations were completely free from it, they would use Tau rail and already would've arrived to Origin System. That's not the case as you see. Although they managed to negate direct destruction of the Void even in older generations, which is proven by Hunhow forcefully stabilizing his drones in the void in Octavia's Anthem, and the Sentient from the Plains being able to retain all its firepower; they still are rendered sterile after the Void exposure, which is again proven by the Plains Sentient lore and Hunhow's dialogue in Natah quest.

Natah confronts herself to other Sentient in that quote above clearly talking about Void resistance. The change she underwent is stated by her to be the difference. The change as far as my theory goes is an artificial Oro the Orokin gave her, but could be something else. Either way that seems to be done on purpose to hold Lotus in the Void not to let other Sentient reach her.

That's just a theory. Nothing supports that in the game lore. Additionally why then hadn't the Sentient created an army of mimics to invade the Origin System if that's all needed to overcome their curse?

What made you think she did it after she got rid of the helmet?

That's the conclusion I've also arrived to, although my argumentation seems to rely more on actual quotes than theoties.

Too much speculation. We don't know much about the Jade Light except that it completely vapourizes the subject. So that's also a theory.

Everything till the end of that paragraph also isn't supported by the lore.

As far as her dialogue goes the only intention of Natah is wiping out the humans for what they have done to her people. She seems to be perfectly like-minded with the other Sentient. As Steve Sinclair mentioned during the Art Pannel I think, Sentient worship the family as an object of religious cult, that allignes perfectly with Natah's behaviour.

I have such suspicion either but we still doesn't have enough info on Unum to say for certain.

This story seems to be only a legend of two Ostrons, too much honor for them to be birthgivers for such massive entities.

Moreover Wally is clearly stated to be older than stars, a literal eldritch god.

As for Unum, it has only been in some relation with Ostrons for not so long time. Ostrons were a nation of space merchants before making a decision to settle down near the Tower (that is what the legend is about btw, about the Ostrons accepting their new life showed on the story of two lovers).

I'd rather killed her, but ok.

Doubt that, Sentient swore to destroy the humans and have a strong reason for that, Hunhow is no exception.

Maybe, but that would be cruel af towards Natah.

Well Alad is ok, why the hell have the other two become the Orokin out of a sudden?

The Neural Sentry is an Orokin weapon thus the faction is Orokin, simple as that.

Theories are great in that there can be thousands of them. But for a conclusion to be achieved there must be a real evidence.

I can't reply to everything, not at least right now, but I intended my speculation to be taken as a statement of faith in good writing (which is to a degree predictable when the logic of good poetics is considered). Purely speculation. So I'll answer what I can. Again, with speculation that I hope makes sense.

Mimics are probably a subspecies of Sentients who have developed adaptation to such deep levels that they can rewire themselves to the point of wiping the "damage self on contact with the Void" piece of code from their circuits. I'd say that Natah is the only one capable of that, as the last-ditch, unrepeatable effort of engineering by Hunhow, and probably what tired the mammoth sentient out so much that allowed for his defeat and imprisonment. When she speaks of her own origin in the ropalolyst intro, it sounds implicative of her being the only one of her kind. Every other mimic you see is a lyst of Natah.

Natah only talked to Wally after taking off the helmet because the Lotus in CoH had no knowledge of him, and the Lotus personality never seemed to explicitly lie about her knowledge when matters are that grave. That's to say, the helmet prevented or forbade the knowledge and/or contact with Wally, just like the Zariman kids' cryostasis in the Lua Nurseries had the same purpose. ("This will prevent the voices from taking hold.")

And as for what's not supported by the lore, I have the prerogative to speculate with what's given to us.

I feel like Natah is preparing for a war with Wally because of the "bearing the weaknesses of neither" line. "Testaments of Tenno evil" kinda cements that if she sees the Zariman kids as Wally's moles in the non-Void universe. The tenno are not just living weapons against the Sentient species, but are also not compatible with total amalgamation (which is somehow a tactic against Wally), and are therefore the enemy.

I think there's a lot more in store for Natah before she's finally dead.

Hunhow would turn. He is desperate to become relevant (see: Octavia's Anthem) and will grab at any straw. Not to mention that he hates the hivemind, though he never gives a reason why.

Natah has nothing to do with a potential Cephalon Lotus - only the helmet with Margulis' mind in it (which I suppose is extant) will suffice. And if Natah gets angry, that's her problem. Can't sit on both thrones at once.

Maroo is suspicious for a specific reason - ayatans are Orokin memory-banks, and we never see for ourselves that she cracks open the sculptures for the endo itself. If she's an Orokin-in-hiding, then the whole thing with ayatans gets turned on its head, as endo simply becomes a garbage byproduct of memory extraction - fuel without use once the information is gone. Every week she just "stumbles across an Orokin codex" as if she's got... you know... a library of those... handed in... by the tenno... in massive quantities... every day. She is also suspiciously capable of restarting and running an entire abandoned relay (which is based on Orokin tech), just like that, as if she had Orokin gene-marker permissions that let her override the entire relay's system. Not to mention that the rest of the relay is sealed off to the Tenno (which is odd, since relay doors should give permission to warframes/operators, which implies another override on her behalf). Another detail is a suspicious pile of dust the colour of ayatan ivory (a unique asset that appears nowhere else in the game) in the middle doorway behind the Oberon statue, which might be from a backroom workshop where ayatans are cut open for memory-transfer. And on top of that, she wears an ocular mask, which doesn't let us see her eyes. Which could be silver, like Alad's. And Ballas'.

The Biz just has a suspiciously blank enough history that he could be anything, and sometimes it feels like he knows a lot more about the Vallis than he lets on, like when he "speculates" that it had been an Orokin playground long ago. A homesick Orokin with a softened heart?

I think it's a weak argument that the neural sentry, an automaton and not an actual thinking machine, can represent a faction. According to Orokin standards, it certainly can not.

And as I said, this is all speculation. If I'm right, I'll be happy, and if I'm wrong, well, that will have been the most likely outcome.

[ant99999]

29 минут назад, evilChair сказал:

 

If your goal is speculating then arguing on has no purpose.

Maroo can be a hidding Orokin or a rejected Margulis' daughter or a Sith Lord with equal probability, and Busines can be a former trapeze artist or Ordan Karris' sexual partner.

So I don't interfere with your speculation then.

 

But I still can't help myself not pointing out some contrdictions with official lore in your reply.

For example Lotus have repeatedly lied to us and hidden pivotal details from us. In fact she is the most deceitful character in whole story. The points the Lotus lied to us about or ommited are:

Our origin from the beginning

The Grineer Queens

Her own origin

Our great betrayal under her command

The Sentient threat

Warframes nature

Her relations with Ballas

Kuva

Probably something other I didn't remember.

Natah on the contrary seems to be completely straightforward seeing no reason for hiding her plans from us. That's why her words are much more reliable source than ones of the Lotus. Moreover no one heard anything from Wally before CoH because he was anchored to Rell's Vessel all this time. Their conversation with the Lotus had plenty of time to happen between CoH and The Sacrifice.

And again there's no hivemind the Sentient posess as a whole. That's the whole point in their story arc. They are desperate about preserving the individuals. Thus the Plains Sentient story, Hunhow and Natah relations and such. They have the cult of family, not a literal singular mind. The Infested for instance don't care about individuals, they are the individual.

But enough, as I said, no point in interferring with speculations.