We All Knew This Was Coming...

[WhisperByte]

While I don't want Soma/Galatine nerfed I can see how their existence might affect "weaker" weapons. A vocal majority will use those "best" weapons and cry that the game is too easy and therefore will push devs to bloat the enemy stats even more which in turn will make majority of weapons actually weaker. This way new weapons will effectively nerf the previous ones.

 

After damage/armor 2.0 and following fixes devs should sit down, grab some beer and set the baselines and do a massive balance pass and then hold on to that standard they set for any new weapons that they'll release

[FunkDoctaSpock]

He didn't say power creep was bull, he said the comment about new weapons making old weapons less effective is bull. And in a PvE centred game he is correct. My Boltor can help take down the Golem quite happily, I don't need to use Flux Rifle or Acrid.

Boltor is armor ignore, of course it can. You guys fail to miss the big picture, but I'm too tired and lack time to draw it for y'all :D

 

This shouldn't even be a polemic, power creep is real and DE uses it as a way to encourage players to spend cash to be the first one with the latest uber boom-stick ...

 

Nuff said.

[Darayas]

I kinda have to agree here. I mean pretty much every longsword is awful except for one...Plus the power creep in this game is getting scary. It makes me not want to buy, craft, forma, potato or anything. Everytime I think I find a nice set up they come up with a whole new set of weapons that makes what I use look about as effective as throwing pebbles at a tank. 

People complain about melee being obsolete.

 

When decent melee weapons are released, they complain about power creep.

 

????

[FunkDoctaSpock]

. And before you start judging someone who has been following and giving feedback on this game for over half a year, look at the bigger picture.

Feel free to feel self-righteous. Doesn't make your arguments valid. You come here calling people names like "whiners" and I'm supposed to find that mature ? Just because you've been here over a half-year and made 1500+ posts doesn't entitle you to anything. Especially when I see the lack of common sense you have. You're the one failing to see the bigger picture, or maybe you just refuse to see it. Anyhow I feel like nothing interesting will come out of this discussion as it's more of a @#&$-fight then an actual debate. Good day.

[Darayas]

Boltor is armor ignore, of course it can. You guys fail to miss the big picture, but I'm too tired and lack time to draw it for y'all :D

 

This shouldn't even be a polemic, power creep is real and DE uses it as a way to encourage players to spend cash to be the first one with the latest uber boom-stick ...

 

Nuff said.

In all honesty I think the degree of power creep is hardly as bad as in other games. You don't have to spend a single cent in Warframe to unlock anything that gives you a stat advantage, and the build time is hardly an issue if you're patient enough. 

[FunkDoctaSpock]

In all honesty I think the degree of power creep is hardly as bad as in other games. You don't have to spend a single cent in Warframe to unlock anything that gives you a stat advantage, and the build time is hardly an issue if you're patient enough. 

I don't disagree with that. But that's not the issue.

 

Lately DE has made very poor decisions when it comes to what rank is required to get those new powerful weapons. They lack consistency and that's what ticking people off. Personally I don't mind more powerful weapons being introduced, just make your players EARN them, don't just give those away. I'm now working on the synapse. It cost me 2 forma to build it, yet I get no polarized slots with it. On the other hand the Soma, to give a recent example, requires no forma to build, doesn't need to be researched, yet it comes with two v polarities ...

 

Where's the common sense and the consistency in this ? 

[Reploid_]

some guns are just not as good as others (melee weapons apply too of course).

And I think that can be attributed to how DE have decided to put weaponry in tiers.

[Darayas]

I don't disagree with that. But that's not the issue.

 

Lately DE has made very poor decisions when it comes to what rank is required to get those new powerful weapons. They lack consistency and that's what ticking people off. Personally I don't mind more powerful weapons being introduced, just make your players EARN them, don't just give those away. I'm now working on the synapse. It cost me 2 forma to build it, yet I get no polarized slots with it. On the other hand the Soma, to give a recent example, requires no forma to build, doesn't need to be researched, yet it comes with two v polarities ...

 

Where's the common sense and the consistency in this ? 

True, valid concern. The problem isn't power creep per se - the issue comes in where the weapons you unlock through experience, playtime and rare material-farming don't have as much of an advantage as the weapons that take considerably less effort to attain. I'm all for power creep, particularly in the melee department, but that has to be distributed proportionately according to each weapon's rarity and difficulty in obtaining.

[Felandi]

I get the feeling that if I mention Armour 2.0 I will be the one going out of a window. Good thing that Tenno are not subject to fall damage.

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

lightsaber confirmed

Oh god, how I'd love this to be true.

[W4RM4CHIN3]

10/10

[FunkDoctaSpock]

True, valid concern. The problem isn't power creep per se - the issue comes in where the weapons you unlock through experience, playtime and rare material-farming don't have as much of an advantage as the weapons that take considerably less effort to attain. I'm all for power creep, particularly in the melee department, but that has to be distributed proportionately according to each weapon's rarity and difficulty in obtaining.

Well said sir.

[FunkDoctaSpock]

I get the feeling that if I mention Armour 2.0 I will be the one going out of a window. Good thing that Tenno are not subject to fall damage.

Well people have brought up this armor 2.0 for WEEKS now. It was supposed to be implemented in update 10 but wasn't. How long do you suppose we stop providing feedback while waiting for the new armor system ?  And do you really believe armor 2.0 will prevent DE from bringing in new inconsistencies ?  DE also said we would receive alternative abilities for warframes, should we stop the feedback on existing abilities because new ones MIGHT come ?

Edited September 29, 2013 by FunkDoctaSpock

[lautalocos]

soma? acrid is still more powerfull.

 

i think the galatine was just a test to see what the community thought of the weapon. to get feedback to see if it was a good new standar for melee weapons. for now, i still think it´s not powerfull enough

[FunkDoctaSpock]

soma? acrid is still more powerfull.

 

i think the galatine was just a test to see what the community thought of the weapon. to get feedback to see if it was a good new standar for melee weapons. for now, i still think it´s not powerfull enough

Is soma a secondary ? Didn't think so. EVERYBODY and their mom knows secondaries have better mods, if not flat out better base stats. Comparing secondaries and primaries makes no sense at the present moment unless you're routing for a primary mod boost.

 

Also assumptions on why DE does what they do are mere speculations an therefore irrelevant to this debate.

 

People have asked for a melee rework for months. And this is what we get, a re-skin of the gram with twice the charge damage. "There you go kids have fun, just don't expect us to actually make melee as a whole a viable game-style for end-game". And don't expect us to rework the mechanics and add new charge animations, we'll let our weapon re-skins and re-stat create the illusion we did.

 

C'mon DE, have you guys gotten lazy, or did all that money take away your creative edge ? There's no doubt in my mind that this game is making money, otherwise Sony would not have cared ONE BIT about it, you can take that to the bank.

 

I often wonder if DE didn't lose some of its independence when they signed for that PS4 deal. Then again those are speculations as well, so I guess we can only give them the benefit of doubt and assume DE still wants to make this game as good as we all hoped it would be.

 

Or can we ?

[Hazmatzone]

So....I can use my Gorgon if I like, and I can make it as good as the Soma, is that what you're saying? Because I don't really think that's what it's really like right now. You ARE addressing the power creep by bringing up the issue of being able to "use whatever weapon you like". Being able to use any weapon you like means that the weapons must not be too far in power/gameplay viability from each other. Which means you cannot have too much power creep.

Have you not noticed that no weapons truly have a big gap in power in this game until you hit the big leagues? Just about every weapon can kill mobs in this game under 10 seconds until we start reaching the level 100 areas(this is only because of armor and it's being changed). I use a gun that kills an enemy in 4 seconds instead of using the acrid that kills enemies in 1 second, I use a glaive that kills enemies in 2 hits instead of using the galatine which kills stuff in 1 hit. That is no where near a huge power gap. I've seen people killing level 70+ enemies with a Mk-1 Braton within seconds( refer to below video for proof), the game is so easy you can use anything and still be an awesome Rambo ninja, that's why there's no second thought about stealth in missions. The only reason why people use weapons like acrid is to be lazy,oped, and see that they got highest % damage at the end.

 

[rohver]

Keep it coming!

[Arlayn]

I kinda have to agree here. I mean pretty much every longsword is awful except for one...Plus the power creep in this game is getting scary. It makes me not want to buy, craft, forma, potato or anything. Everytime I think I find a nice set up they come up with a whole new set of weapons that makes what I use look about as effective as throwing pebbles at a tank. 

They should have NOT LISTENED TO YOU GUYS!!! That's why this is happening... This is why the Clan gear that was released should've stayed at INSANE REQUIREMENTS!!!

Why? simple... The more advanced gear that are just superior versions of other weapons we already have in game should:

1. require higher mastery rank

2. Cost WAAAAAAAY more resources...

3. Or go with my old tier idea and have us use older weapons as components to make the superior weapon versions.

 

Either way we need to build a system where players get better gear as they go along in that one section.

 

Kinda like Predator Concrete Jungle. You start off with junky versions of your gear but as you go you get better plasma caster, better dart gun, better disc blade, better everything... Fun fact... gamers like getting weak versions of a weapon at start, and then getting stronger versions of said weapon as the game progresses... Not everyone will love every gun in a game. For example I only use melee weapons in Borderlands 2. I flat out refuse to use a weapon that does not have a knife attached to it. So I always hunt down stronger versions of knife wielding weapons, and yes that puts me at a disadvantage a lot, but I could care less. Why? because I have a preference as does everyone who plays this game. Most of us hold our preference like principles... Even if it has no damage piercing we make it work... I still use Supra as my main Primary... its my fav Primary. (unless they bring in a heavy machine gun from the infested faction that shoots out a barrage of toxic barbs similar to the Gorgon.)

 

The game still carries its preference... I flat out hate armor piercing weapons, and will only take on support unit weapons such as Gorgon, or Supra for barrage fire. I don't like normal machine guns, or pistols. I just want my heavy barrage fire weapons.

[ThePresident777]

I kinda have to agree here. I mean pretty much every longsword is awful except for one...Plus the power creep in this game is getting scary. It makes me not want to buy, craft, forma, potato or anything. Everytime I think I find a nice set up they come up with a whole new set of weapons that makes what I use look about as effective as throwing pebbles at a tank. 

 

Same thing happens with nerfs.  Just when you're having fun with something, NERF.

[Archistopheles]

Same thing happens with nerfs.  Just when you're having fun with something, NERF.

 

I potatoed Nekros, Soma, and Galatine...

 

 

I like to live dangerously.

[Gerostalis]

The main problem with the power creep is it seems to go completely against this games design. I mean the game SEEMS to be built around customization, and that's awesome. Pick the frame, weapons, and mods you want to make the exact game play experience that you enjoy. Once you find that you can improve it with forma, and a potato. Of course this can include multiple weapons, set up in different ways so that you can change it up. That's why I love the idea of horizontal progression. 

 

If the power creep keeps up eventually you're going to end up with a game where everyones using the same frames and weapons. I mean I joined a defence mission today and we were ALL using Galatine. People saying that "it would be okay if the better weapons required a higher mastery rank", I would have to disagree. I really think having stuff just be outright better, and by a large margin is a bad idea regardless because it kills the diversity the game is based around. 

[gekigarion]

Have you not noticed that no weapons truly have a big gap in power in this game until you hit the big leagues? Just about every weapon can kill mobs in this game under 10 seconds until we start reaching the level 100 areas(this is only because of armor and it's being changed). I use a gun that kills an enemy in 4 seconds instead of using the acrid that kills enemies in 1 second, I use a glaive that kills enemies in 2 hits instead of using the galatine which kills stuff in 1 hit. That is no where near a huge power gap. I've seen people killing level 70+ enemies with a Mk-1 Braton within seconds( refer to below video for proof), the game is so easy you can use anything and still be an awesome Rambo ninja, that's why there's no second thought about stealth in missions. The only reason why people use weapons like acrid is to be lazy,oped, and see that they got highest % damage at the end.

 

Sorry, but I did not mention anywhere that weapons have a big gap in power. I did make a point however that some weapons make others obsolete. Why should I use Dread when Paris Prime will usually serve me beter because of its extra flexibility granted by armor ignoring attacks? You could argue that you can fix that by slapping armor piercing mods on, but that means I could save an extra mod slot on the Paris Prime instead of being forced to apply armor piercing.

 

For the record, I'm soloing level 70+ missions with some crappy level 13 un-forma'd Grakata and even lower level secondary and melee weapons (due to wanting to level mastery), I'm not arguing that players are unable to beat content with the weapons, but rather that some weapons are simply replaced by others. Like the Gorgon and Soma issue. Or the Dread and Paris Prime.

 

You're also ignoring one major factor in player behavior in MMOs. There are always many players who want to optimize their gear in whatever game they are playing, part of the reason they play is because they want to compete and be the best. This is one of the major reasons that people talk about this topic and makes your argument of "being able to kill enemies" inconsistent with this debate as the focus is not on "being able to kill enemies and complete the mission", but rather, "being able to kill enemies as fast as possible" or "being able to do as much dps as possible".

 

Constantly replacing the current "best weapon" with a new one means a lot of old weapons will become ignored by the player base, effectively turning DE's hard work on creating these weapons into just an afterthought of the past instead of incorporating them as part of the game's features. It would be more sensible to have the new weapon entice players with new features/gameplay style rather than constantly create weapons that are more powerful but that essentially serve the same function (Which does not add any actual exciting features to gameplay and only excites players initially)

Edited October 1, 2013 by gekigarion

[Hazmatzone]

Sorry, but I did not mention anywhere that weapons have a big gap in power. I did make a point however that some weapons make others obsolete. Why should I use Dread when Paris Prime will usually serve me beter because of its extra flexibility granted by armor ignoring attacks? You could argue that you can fix that by slapping armor piercing mods on, but that means I could save an extra mod slot on the Paris Prime instead of being forced to apply armor piercing.

 

For the record, I'm soloing level 70+ missions with some crappy level 13 un-forma'd Grakata and even lower level secondary and melee weapons (due to wanting to level mastery), I'm not arguing that players are unable to beat content with the weapons, but rather that some weapons are simply replaced by others. Like the Gorgon and Soma issue. Or the Dread and Paris Prime.

"Being able to use any weapon you like means that the weapons must not be too far in power/gameplay viability from each other"...Also translates into: Weapons are too far in power.

 

As for paris prime being better than dread or paris DE has already stated that they're aiming for a tiered weapon system. Where things would go like Braton>Grakata>Soma etc... so they're doing that on purpose. Yet everything is viable so there's no reason why if you like a weapon you shouldn't potato it. If you were able to kill enemies before the galatine came out you can kill enemies after the galatine comes out, and the only reason why you'd want to throw away your old thing is because you're either a hopeless min-maxer who doesn't play for fun but for stats or because you have fun with the new thing more than the old thing and you can move on without any regret.

 

Power progression happens in every game out there, you start at level 1 with a wooden shield and sword and when you're at level 100 you're using platinum swords and shields, so why are people not used to it?

[gekigarion]

"Being able to use any weapon you like means that the weapons must not be too far in power/gameplay viability from each other"...Also translates into: Weapons are too far in power.

 

As for paris prime being better than dread or paris DE has already stated that they're aiming for a tiered weapon system. Where things would go like Braton>Grakata>Soma etc... so they're doing that on purpose. Yet everything is viable so there's no reason why if you like a weapon you shouldn't potato it. If you were able to kill enemies before the galatine came out you can kill enemies after the galatine comes out, and the only reason why you'd want to throw away your old thing is because you're either a hopeless min-maxer who doesn't play for fun but for stats or because you have fun with the new thing more than the old thing and you can move on without any regret.

 

Power progression happens in every game out there, you start at level 1 with a wooden shield and sword and when you're at level 100 you're using platinum swords and shields, so why are people not used to it?

Fair enough, you are correct in stating that I did mistake my own dialogue. However, as shown in the edited post of mine, the viability of a weapon in players' eyes does not always necessarily mean that it is "good enough to do the job" but rather is "the most practical weapon in terms of efficiency/dps".

 

I've heard a lot about DE stating they want a tier system, and with that in mind, I understand why there are issues like Dread and Paris Prime. However, did DE ever state WHY they want a tier system? What benefit does it add to the game? For me it honestly detracts from the customizability. Instead of having the ability to choose from two weapons, the Gorgon and Soma, I'm only left with the Soma if I still want to have maximum efficiency, which leaves the Gorgon ignored (And all the hard work that DE put into designing it going to waste)

 

Power progression is good in many games, but in this case, this game has a need  for more weapon versatility and it could really use some of those old weapons as extra choices to alternative forms of fighing gameplay. It's fine to throw away some old weapons for the sake of power creep, but when most of the players are using the same weapon not because they think it's fun, but because it's just the best, there is a lot of wasted potential gameplay features. You can fix this by creating new weapons (which takes time and resources), or you could simply...make some of the older weapons more comparable to the new ones.

 

For example, you have two fun gameplay elements: first-person-shooting and hack n' slash melee action. Guns simply overpower melee in terms of damage efficiency (the time it takes to get into melee range can be used to simply gun down everything), so players will only use guns when trying to play efficiently. Now you are only left with one gameplay element, first-person-shooting. The game still works, and it's playable and stuff, but do you really want to ignore the fact that it COULD be better, by having that second feature in it?

Edited October 1, 2013 by gekigarion