Improvement Suggestions For Nekros

[MalusCalibur]

28/09/13 - Edited this first post to reflect a new idea for Soul Thief, to reduce dependency between it and other powers, and to simplify Nekros's functionality (the old 'Soul Queue' I felt was needlessy complex, and forced synergy rather than encouraging it).

29/09/13 - Edited this first post to reflect a new idea for Curse, as the original version lacked imagination.


I've been enjoying Nekros since I unlocked him - his appearence is appealing and I find summoning a personal army of hand-picked minions is very satisfying. However, I also think he is fairly unremarkable in his overall performance: Soul Punch, as well as having the daftest name in the game (shy perhaps of Dethcube), is a not-particulary-interesting damaging projectile. Terrify doesn't affect all enemies it targets, has small range, and can create frustration when affected enemies become lost, stuck, or flee from player attempts to finish them off. Desecrate is something of an unimaginative idea, simply being the power of farming, and hardly feels a very exciting or worthwhile use of the 50 energy; if it works at all, owing to the non-guaranteed success rate and the rapid degredation of corpses.

I'd propose changes as follows.


Soul Thief (25 energy)
Replacement for Soul Punch. It functions similarly, though Soul Thief does less damage to the target (Around 300 at maximum mod level), and rather than push or ragdoll them, it stuns them in place for a short duration (around 6-8 seconds at maximum mod level) Any enemy struck with Soul Thief is added to the end of the 'Soul Queue' (see Shadows of the Dead for further detail), and marked with a suitable effect. Each enemy can only have their soul taken in this way once - any further uses on the same enemy do not generate a soul, though other effects happen as normal.


Life Leech (50 energy)
Replacement for Terrify. An AoE attack, centred on Nekros, that drains a small amount of health (around 5% of their remaining health) from each enemy in range (around 25 meters at maximum mod level), and heals Nekros by the total amount.

Nekros is criminally lacking in real ways to protect himself (or any kind of effective 'Panic Button'), and this abillity would fill that niche. It has reasonably large range so that Nekros is not forced to hurl himself right into the middle of a huge group to effectively utitlise the power. Healing himself seems to fit well, in that he has reduced shields but standard armour (50) and health, encouraging players to build him with Vitality over Redirection. Given the small amount drained from each enemy, it prevents him being too similar to Trinity - he's only able to heal large amounts when a large group of enemies is present. He is also only able to heal himself, not allies.


Curse (75 energy)
Replacement for Desecrate. A targeted debuff, affecting all enemies within range of the intitial target - functionally identical to the targeting for Blade Storm. Each affected enemy begins to take damage over time (one 'pip' per second), with each 'pip' being equal to a % of their armour value [i'm holding off on actual figures for the time being, in light of the incoming new armour system]. Additionally, whenever an affected enemy attacks (whether the attack connects or not), they (and the target player as normal, if the attack/shot does connect) receive the damage they would have inflicted. The debuff would last for around 15 seconds (at maximum mod level), and have a range of around 20 meters from the initial target (at maximum mod level).

This kind of ability fits with Nekros's description (that he manipulates enemies - in this case he turns their strengths against them, as both heavily armoured and high-damage enemies will suffer more than weaker ones), as well as being a skill type that isn't seen very much in Warframe (Radial Blind and Radial Disarm are the closest approximations that come to mind). For enemies without an armor value, a default damage value would apply (it would be very low - no more than 5 per 'pip').


Shadows of the Dead (100 energy)
This power remains more or less as it currently exists. However, the Soul Queue is now utilised in order to generate minions. It is an onscreen (yet unintrusive) meter that displays the souls currently held, indicated by a small image of the enemy it was taken from. Killing any enemy automatically adds it to the end of the Soul Queue, with a red colouration. Souls taken by Soul Thief instead have a green colouration, and cannot be overwritten by souls gathered from kills, only by others gathered from Soul Thief if the meter is filled.
The Shadows attempt to follow Nekros unless otherwise engaged in combat. Shadows are labeled as 'Shadow' to help differentiate between minions and enemies. Shadows last for 30 seconds at maximum mod level.

Essentially there is nothing wrong with this power as it stands, just a few tweaks are needed to improve functionality; having the minions follow Nekros prevents the power simply being a 'single room-clearer', like many other ultimates. Soul Thief mitigates the need for Nekros to 'manage' kills in order to preserve units he later wants to summon, allowing him to both select summoning targets without comprimising his ability to assist his team.


I feel these changes would make Nekros more interesting to play as, as each power offers something useful and reasonably different, as well as a bit of synergy (without it being forced), and they fit with the description of Nekros given in game.

Edited September 29, 2013 by MalusCalibur

[Demon_Mask]

I do really like the ideas!!!!!, especially the soul que functioning with shadows of the dead! i play as Nekros so much and in team situations i often state, please guys let me get the kill shot on the heavies, and i find myself becoming a exclucive heavy unit hunter at times (especially defence) this would balance out allowing me to kill lighter enemies while theiving the souls of those heavies to bring back to fight for me!

[Zachles]

Shadows of the Dead is probably his most annoying skill. All of the shadows get in the way, (some look like regular mobs, which tricks you and causes you to waste ammo) and worst of all, you get no experience for anything they kill.

 

Anyways, I say keep Desecrate, just change the way it works. I vote to make it an AoE skill, similar to Nova's Molecular Prime. Enemies that are debuffed with Desecrate will drop extra loot upon death. Same basic concept, but better.

[scavenge]

Shadows of the Dead is probably his most annoying skill. All of the shadows get in the way, (some look like regular mobs, which tricks you and causes you to waste ammo) and worst of all, you get no experience for anything they kill.

 

Anyways, I say keep Desecrate, just change the way it works. I vote to make it an AoE skill, similar to Nova's Molecular Prime. Enemies that are debuffed with Desecrate will drop extra loot upon death. Same basic concept, but better.

 

No exp for what they kill, oh hell, that's pretty dumb.

[Fundance]

Soul Punch is a not-particularly-interesting damaging projectile? Excuse me?

 

Soul Punch is a very interesting damaging projectile. It requires no line of sight, can be angled in such a way that it ragdolls everything around the target, can be used to launch enemies skyward, further increasing the already significant amount of crowd control that it offers if  used correctly, and serves as an instant, long-distance "hold it' button for VIP enemies like toxic ancients and bombards.

 

Please don't just be distracted by damage numbers. Soul Punch is great.

[MalusCalibur]

Shadows of the Dead is probably his most annoying skill. All of the shadows get in the way, (some look like regular mobs, which tricks you and causes you to waste ammo) and worst of all, you get no experience for anything they kill.

 

Anyways, I say keep Desecrate, just change the way it works. I vote to make it an AoE skill, similar to Nova's Molecular Prime. Enemies that are debuffed with Desecrate will drop extra loot upon death. Same basic concept, but better.

 

The Shadows looking like regular enemies is a bug, and I'm presuming it'll be fixed. Agreed, though, that enemies killed by Shadows should still generate Affinity.

 

My issue with Desecrate, aside from functional problems, is that it's just not very interesting. Generating more ammo/orbs/etc is not very exciting and doesnt feel like a very worthwhile use of 50 energy. The community in general has been very vocal in dislike for the power right from the concept description, so I don't believe I am alone in the opinon that it should be replaced.

 

 

Soul Punch is a not-particularly-interesting damaging projectile? Excuse me?

 

Soul Punch is a very interesting damaging projectile. It requires no line of sight, can be angled in such a way that it ragdolls everything around the target, can be used to launch enemies skyward, further increasing the already significant amount of crowd control that it offers if  used correctly, and serves as an instant, long-distance "hold it' button for VIP enemies like toxic ancients and bombards.

 

Please don't just be distracted by damage numbers. Soul Punch is great.

 

I have never been terribly impressed by those effects when using it - even in a Soul Punch 'showcase' video it seems underwhelming, paling in comparison to the similar Sonic Boom. It has range on its side, admittedly, but the exact positioning required for it to suitably affect multiple enemies is very strict, limiting it to 1-2 targets in general. The damage is largely irrelevant, and certainly isnt the only thing I focus on.

 

 

I have re-thought the Soul Queue system and adjusted the first post to reflect this - the old way was overly complex and forced an artificial increase in Nekros's power costs.

Edited September 29, 2013 by MalusCalibur

[dukelego]

No. For replacing desecrate and soul punch.

Desecrate just needs to be more effective

Also dont make suggestions for armor stuff when armor 2.0 is coming soon

Life drain: he needs to be able to move at the same time

Sotd: effect does not last long enough and revived are not effective

[MalusCalibur]

No. For replacing desecrate and soul punch.

Desecrate just needs to be more effective

Also dont make suggestions for armor stuff when armor 2.0 is coming soon

Life drain: he needs to be able to move at the same time

Sotd: effect does not last long enough and revived are not effective

 

You give no reasoning as to why Soul Punch or Desecrate shouldn't be changed, in line with the issues I have already outlined with both of them. Desecrate becomes no more interesting or exicting if it just better at what it does now. Soul Punch really does not offer much, and it's potential for crowd control is highly situational and unreliable.

 

I also don't see how Armour 2.0 would completely invalidate the idea of reducing enemy armour such that they take more damage - the reduction numbers might have to be changed, but the overall power would remain sound. I really don't believe Armour 2.0 will be such a gigantic game-changer as people are making out - from all accounts it seems all it will really do is make armour rarer among enemies.

 

Why would he have to be able to move during Life Leech? It's a one-hit power; you cast it, it affects all enemies in range once, and then ends.

 

In my mind, 30 seconds (potentially more with mods) is plenty, especially if the minions are following you rather than simply standing around in the room where they were summoned. As for their effectiveness, they are equal in health/damage/etc to the enemies you are facing, meaning it always scales perfectly - if you were talking about their tendency to act stupidly by shooting at walls or aimlessly bumbling around, I'd assume their AI suitably refined in this new version.

 

I appreciate feedback but simply saying 'No, thats no good' is not terribly helpful!

[Phatose]

Desecrate both nearly doubles loot for everything in a 30 yard radius and creates health orbs which allow for builds where shields are not the primary form of defense. This is a skill that is useful, powerful, and unique.  Using it requires a small bit of skill, to ensure there will be lots of corpses around.  It's not rocket science, but for some reason people seem unable to do it. 

 

Trading that for an armor debuff is flat out boring and pointless.  Your proposed Curse is functionally a copy of Rhino's Roar, except it only affects the enemies on the immediate area.  In short, it's both dull and weak.

 

Trading one of the most useful, most potent, and most distinctive skills available for anything is going to be a bad idea.  Trading it for a second rate knock off of a power we already have?  That's laughable.

[MalusCalibur]

Desecrate both nearly doubles loot for everything in a 30 yard radius and creates health orbs which allow for builds where shields are not the primary form of defense. This is a skill that is useful, powerful, and unique.  Using it requires a small bit of skill, to ensure there will be lots of corpses around.  It's not rocket science, but for some reason people seem unable to do it. 

 

Trading that for an armor debuff is flat out boring and pointless.  Your proposed Curse is functionally a copy of Rhino's Roar, except it only affects the enemies on the immediate area.  In short, it's both dull and weak.

 

Trading one of the most useful, most potent, and most distinctive skills available for anything is going to be a bad idea.  Trading it for a second rate knock off of a power we already have?  That's laughable.

 

You're entitled to disagree, but implying my comments regarding Desecrate are based solely on an inability to use it 'properly', and then levying destructive criticism at my proposed change without suggesting improvements or alternatives is both unhelpful and rude.

[Phatose]

You're entitled to disagree, but implying my comments regarding Desecrate are based solely on an inability to use it 'properly', and then levying destructive criticism at my proposed change without suggesting improvements or alternatives is both unhelpful and rude.

 

Perhaps had you provided more then a single sentence of rationale to make any change to the skill, you would've gotten a more in-depth response.  However, you only gave one sentence, and that one sentence rather heavily implied that you were having difficulty affecting targets.  That implies a misuse of the skill, and given the brevity of your 'rationale', expecting anyone to put more into it then you did is also unhelpful and rude.

[Reaver_X]

soul punch is a cool name....but the way the move works, its just not effective. If u could aim the bodys it might be somewhat helpful, but more often than not, it just ragdolls 1 enemy....

[MalusCalibur]

Perhaps had you provided more then a single sentence of rationale to make any change to the skill, you would've gotten a more in-depth response.  However, you only gave one sentence, and that one sentence rather heavily implied that you were having difficulty affecting targets.  That implies a misuse of the skill, and given the brevity of your 'rationale', expecting anyone to put more into it then you did is also unhelpful and rude.

 

I believe you'll find I gave more than just a single sentence. My problem with Desecrate is that isn't exciting, and lacks imagination; simply generating additional items that enemies already drop. Health orbs are really the only thing here that offers any uniqueness to the skill (since enemies don't usually drop them), but I don't believe that makes for a worthwhile or satisfying use of the energy cost (your point about it allowing for health based defence builds rather than shield is valid, but surely Life Leech would do the same). The fact that it occasionally doesn't create any items even when successfully cast, and the fact that the timing for successfully casting it before a corpse is removed is needlessly difficult as well as enemies being prone to disintegration upon death (thus not leaving a corpse at all) just compound that, rather than being the main focus for my issue with the power.

 

Curse, as it stands, is not all that interesting, and I accept your point on that - the initial post will be edited to reflect additional thought on the matter. I believe you could easily have expressed the same opinion without the confrontational manner, though, and spared us both the need for the resultant argument.

Edited September 29, 2013 by MalusCalibur

[dukelego]

You give no reasoning as to why Soul Punch or Desecrate shouldn't be changed, in line with the issues I have already outlined with both of them. Desecrate becomes no more interesting or exicting if it just better at what it does now. Soul Punch really does not offer much, and it's potential for crowd control is highly situational and unreliable.

 

I also don't see how Armour 2.0 would completely invalidate the idea of reducing enemy armour such that they take more damage - the reduction numbers might have to be changed, but the overall power would remain sound. I really don't believe Armour 2.0 will be such a gigantic game-changer as people are making out - from all accounts it seems all it will really do is make armour rarer among enemies.

 

Why would he have to be able to move during Life Leech? It's a one-hit power; you cast it, it affects all enemies in range once, and then ends.

 

In my mind, 30 seconds (potentially more with mods) is plenty, especially if the minions are following you rather than simply standing around in the room where they were summoned. As for their effectiveness, they are equal in health/damage/etc to the enemies you are facing, meaning it always scales perfectly - if you were talking about their tendency to act stupidly by shooting at walls or aimlessly bumbling around, I'd assume their AI suitably refined in this new version.

 

I appreciate feedback but simply saying 'No, thats no good' is not terribly helpful!

The reason why soul punch is good is because of the cc. If its unpredictable make it more predictable.

Desecrate is a good ability it just sucks because its not effective. Few bodies because of dissolving and its not always affecting the bodies that are there.

As for armor debuf why on earth do you need it you can already kill enemies fairly easily without the debuf. And 2.0 will probably be reducing high level armor levels and so you'll be doing even more damage.

I mean being able to move during casting of life drain.

I believe you'll find I gave more than just a single sentence. My problem with Desecrate is that isn't exciting, and lacks imagination; simply generating additional items that enemies already drop. Health orbs are really the only thing here that offers any uniqueness to the skill (since enemies don't usually drop them), but I don't believe that makes for a worthwhile or satisfying use of the energy cost (your point about it allowing for health based defence builds rather than shield is valid, but surely Life Leech would do the same). The fact that it occasionally doesn't create any items even when successfully cast, and the fact that the timing for successfully casting it before a corpse is removed is needlessly difficult as well as enemies being prone to disintegration upon death (thus not leaving a corpse at all) just compound that, rather than being the main focus for my issue with the power.

 

Curse, as it stands, is not all that interesting, and I accept your point on that - the initial post will be edited to reflect additional thought on the matter. I believe you could easily have expressed the same opinion without the confrontational manner, though, and spared us both the need for the resultant argument.

Who cares if its interesting or not its generally effective for what its made to do

[MalusCalibur]

The reason why soul punch is good is because of the cc. If its unpredictable make it more predictable.

Desecrate is a good ability it just sucks because its not effective. Few bodies because of dissolving and its not always affecting the bodies that are there.

Who cares if its interesting or not its generally effective for what its made to do.

I mean being able to move during casting of life drain.

 

 Soul Punch's crowd control capabilties leave a lot to be desired, in my experience. Even when enemies are near to each other, it requires precise positioning to affect more than one or two of them. And from a personal standpoint, I don't like the idea of it. It doesn't fit with the 'necromancer' theme very well.

 

There is far more to the game than simply having powers be entirely efficient or solely useful - there is an aesthetic element, and it is satisfying for powers to have more of an aesthetic impact than Desecrate does. There are also themes for each frame, and personally I do not find what is essentially rifling through the pockets of dead enemies to be particularly in-keeping with either. It comes across as unimaginative - boiling down to 'just more loot' in a game where farming is already too prevalent.

 

I'm still not sure why you would need to move during the casting of Life Leech. No other powers allow you to move during the cast time, and it is a single hit power, not a continous effect that would benefit from moving around after casting it.