Isn´t Focus Kind Of Weak?

[Azamagon]

People speaking of directly damaging abilities, yeah, that is ONE side of the coin. But imo, abilities that deal static amounts of damage ALL need to have utility on them so they ALWAYS are useful in some way. But that's another debatte (Also doing an energy-system-revamp could help a lot... https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/109380-energy-system-tweaks-ninja-signs/#entry1266265 )

 

However, this is why Focus CAN'T just be buffed right away:

Remember that there are some abilities that have percentual effects. Such abilities would be Rhino's Roar and Banshee's Sonar. These percentual effects are boosted by Focus. Take Roar for example. It gives a 50% damage boost. WIth max Focus you suddenly have a 65% damage boost, which is certainly nothing to scoff at. If Focus would be buffed, abilities such as Roar and Sonar would be insanely overpowered!

Edited September 29, 2013 by Azamagon

[r3dzer0]

you forget sir that the majority of skills are armor ignoring.  ash for instance and his shurikens with a maxed focus do 650 to 2 targets or 1300 to one, additionally they crit taking the total damage up to 2600 for one or 1300 for two.  they are also serrated so against light infested they do 3x damage.  they're very spammable and with streamline cost very little.  adding even 30 more percentage points would boost them to way to high. 

 

Weapons will always do more, and the skills are used as emergencies, or to break up pace while you reload.  if you're running through rooms just spamming your skills then you won't be nearly as effective as the person that shoots, melees and uses skills. 

 

what you're proposing would cause a tidal effect on all skills and weapons, thus making weaponry, even the highest tiered ones, virtually obsolete until you reach level 150+ enemies.

 

For example : rhino stomp does what, 800 armor ignore damage + his roar for 400 more and an additional 250+100 for focus 30% bonus? so that's 1550 straight damage to every enemy in a large area, with stun ragdoll.  add an additional 30% to that.  takes you up to 2k damage that can't be reduced with the cc.  Rhino charge would get 1.2k ish damage for just running forward.  iron skin would make you neigh impregnable, and rhino would probably be the most overpowered frame in the game.

 

 

edit: and the post above me directly shows another flaw

Nova as another example would do (800 explosion + 60%[800]=1280 an explosion) multiplied by all the enemies around, with the cc, and the damage bonus.  abilities are fine where they are now without adding to it.  some need rebalancing, some some tweaking, but a flat boost to all of them is not what they need

Edited September 29, 2013 by r3dzer0

[lautalocos]

They ALREADY are useful, they ALREADY deal more damage than ults most of the time (this simply widens the gap)

All of the skills minus 3-4 I think IGNORED ARMOR (ember, vauban, volt)

 

I was using 100% for easy numbers and not have to think about what an extra 30% would be.

Nerf flow? Nah, that just makes ults less usable, and people simply swap to spamming 1.

 

Guns will always outdamage skills (over time, not in a burst), but so what? We're talking about skills, not skills compared to X or Y. Sills ALSO hit more than one enemy at a time, through walls, AND generally CC them in some way.

 

My answer is you're wrong, and you;re not thinking what you purpose does. Nerfing flow = less ult spam, more 1 spam. Buffing focus makes damaging 1 skills OP. I can kill EVERYTHING with a mag who does ~480 (if a 60% focus) fairly fast, and of decent level.

"nerfing flow= less ult spam, more 1 spam"

and that´s actually good!

1 are suppoused to be the skill you use the most, and 4 the ones you use the least, not backwards as it is now!

Edited September 29, 2013 by lautalocos

[KvotheTheArcane1]

"nerfing flow= less ult spam, more 1 spam"

and that´s actually good!

1 are suppoused to be the skill you use the most, and 4 the ones you use the least, not backwards as it is now!

Eh, kinda agree, kinda disagree. But it doesn't make you right that focus should be buffed.

[lautalocos]

Eh, kinda agree, kinda disagree. But it doesn't make you right that focus should be buffed.

i do think that we should find a mid-point between damage skills being usefull and and not making them OP, but it´s quite hard whit the current energy system, isn´t it?

i know, lets go to the science machine!

"plays old batman music"

[r3dzer0]

having less energy or cooldowns wont reduce spam of skills.  as has been stated more than enough times, why would i use 1 when i can wait to use 4 to clear the entire room?  focus just kinda exacerbates this by making the most powerful skill do what it does much better.  a  much better proposal that would make your idea viable is to have focus not affect ultimates *flame repellent engaged* to beef up 1-3 power and keep 4 for emergencies.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

i do think that we should find a mid-point between damage skills being usefull and and not making them OP, but it´s quite hard whit the current energy system, isn´t it?

i know, lets go to the science machine!

"plays old batman music"

Nah, the current energy system works, maybe a few tweeks, rebalance some skills. Maybe a slight buff to most ults (either their one should be a single target DPS (if it's a damage skill) or if it's an aoe, their ult should be stronger for the same energy price.)

[sagebrushfire]

all of those are mostly utility skills. double damage from nova, 50% extra damage from rhino roar and mag pull (im guessing, that´s all that mag can do).

 

Actually I used mostly Iron Skin and Stomp from Rhino;  the stomp freezes the enemies. Molecular Prime + Pull + Energy Siphon for practically unlimited pulls. If they crowd you or someone dies, you rhino stomp to freeze the nearby enemies so you have a reprieve.

[Helljack84]

Any big changes would be rather pointless until we know how armor 2.0 will affect abilities.

 

Biggest issue with the skills is AI vs non AI. Even enemies in their 30-40 will laugh at your flashy fireworks if you bring the wrong Warframe.

 

Giving Ember or Volt 100% more damage would make their skills viable for maybe 5 more lvls (vulnerable factions not included) until they become ineffective.

Give Rhino or Saryn 100% more damage and they'll annihilate even lvl 120 enemies instantly.

Not counting in any non-damage abilities (SotD, Roar, Sonar)...

 

Utility on skills is another story DE should look into, no one would care about not clearing rooms with one button if your skills offer other benefits.

As it is now some skills have uber damage + utility and others neither.

[Wolfstorm18]

1 skills are for spamming, they are weak BECAUSE they can be spammed over 10 times on any frame with a maxed flow (12 times with 300 energy, more with streamline).

Mag's pull would become MASSIVELY OP with a 100% focus, dealing 600 damage in a HUGE area with a good CC for 25 energy!

Excal's slash dash would be dealing 1k damage for 25 energy!

Ash's shuriken would be dealing 1k damage too!

Nekro's soul punch ALSO does 1k damage!

Nova gets 6 shots of 300 damage (1.8k)!

Vauban gets 10 shots from a tesla, each dealing 300 damage, that's 3k damage!

Saryn would deal (6 * 20 * 15 =) 1800 that spreads, if all ticks go off.

Ember deals 400 with fireball, and then an extra 1600 (2k total)

Volt does 400 damage which would then chain to 5 other enemies (1.2k damage)

Rhino does 1300 with his charge.

 

And that's for ONLY 1 skills. Ash does 4k damage with his ult!

 

 

Thats a good reason to put Focus at 120% maximum with more tiers. The more OP, the more crying babies will be complaining, and the more satisfaction for trolling them with a massive ultimate spamming. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Thats a good reason to put Focus at 120% maximum with more tiers. The more OP, the more crying babies will be complaining, and the more satisfaction for trolling them with a massive ultimate spamming. 

And that's a terrible reason. You're attacking a strawman here by simplifying everyone into either whining or not whining.

[Thelonious]

OP highlights the lack of scaling some powers have.

 

Adding ranks to focus would be a solution. After all, since it's a rare mod, the amount of ressources needed to max it(like, twice what's needed for serration) would justify the the added power.

But it would add to the grinding aspect, which is kinda unpopular.

And do you really want the game to be as easy at level 130 than it is at level 30? Just clearing rooms with the press of a key?

 

Another solution would be to add a second effect to all damaging skills.

 

Look at some of the #1: tesla stuns, pull ragdolls, rhino charge knockbacks, freeze freezes, etc...

They still have some utility at high level beyond damage.

Works the same for ultimates: Rhino Stomp is a large aoe CC, same with miasma, M.Prime is...yeah

Spamming them is more than useless at high level. Timing is key more than ever, energy orbs don't drop that easy when mobs don't die like ants.

 

When you think of it, past a certain level, most frames can only bring support. Damage is irrelevant when even ults dont remove half the HP of mobs. There are just a few frames, like Ash, who only have damaging abilities and don't provide much to the group, and who will inevitably fall short at high level.

They just need a few tweaks to be more useful beyond damage. AOE stealth anyone?

[lautalocos]

OP highlights the lack of scaling some powers have.

 

Adding ranks to focus would be a solution. After all, since it's a rare mod, the amount of ressources needed to max it(like, twice what's needed for serration) would justify the the added power.

But it would add to the grinding aspect, which is kinda unpopular.

And do you really want the game to be as easy at level 130 than it is at level 30? Just clearing rooms with the press of a key?

 

Another solution would be to add a second effect to all damaging skills.

 

Look at some of the #1: tesla stuns, pull ragdolls, rhino charge knockbacks, freeze freezes, etc...

They still have some utility at high level beyond damage.

Works the same for ultimates: Rhino Stomp is a large aoe CC, same with miasma, M.Prime is...yeah

Spamming them is more than useless at high level. Timing is key more than ever, energy orbs don't drop that easy when mobs don't die like ants.

 

When you think of it, past a certain level, most frames can only bring support. Damage is irrelevant when even ults dont remove half the HP of mobs. There are just a few frames, like Ash, who only have damaging abilities and don't provide much to the group, and who will inevitably fall short at high level.

They just need a few tweaks to be more useful beyond damage. AOE stealth anyone?

but i think that there should be an option for people that want to have a warframe which uses his skills for damage, rather than utility.

i like utility, but i don´t think it should be the only way to play.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

but i think that there should be an option for people that want to have a warframe which uses his skills for damage, rather than utility.

i like utility, but i don´t think it should be the only way to play.

There ARE frames built for damage.... like, all but a couple. Vauban, frost, and loki.

 

Oh, and nekros, and banshee.

Edited September 30, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Vaskadar]

Isn't the problem that they artificially boosted *cough* inflated *cough* difficulty with high-level enemies? Focus was fine a long while ago.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Vaskadar

[LukeAura]

There ARE frames built for damage.... like, all but a couple. Vauban, frost, and loki.

 

Oh, and nekros, and banshee.

And Nyx, Trinity. 

So, half the frames are built to provide support over damage. 

 

[Liminal]

I don't think any of these arguments will matter when a hybrid mod that gives us [something + 28% power damage] is released :P

[EirikAura]

TBH I'd like to SEE a focus mod. They only drop from Captain Vor and the Stalker. Not a great chance of getting that, are there?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

And Nyx, Trinity. 

So, half the frames are built to provide support over damage. 

 

Ah, right forgot about them. Still, almost everyone scales with focus, except maybe loki. Still, whatever, focus doesn't really need a buff.

 

I don't think any of these arguments will matter when a hybrid mod that gives us [something + 28% power damage] is released :P

Heh yeah. It'll be a streamline/focus mix, or stretch/focus :/

[Chaosrain]

I don't know if it's the fact that some skills don't ignore armor(Avalanche, Crush) but it really feels like ultimates do little to even tickle enemies around level 55-60. Rather than buff Focus, which is decent by itself, I think we should wait until Armor 2.0 before making requests like this.

[fatpig84]

I don't know if it's the fact that some skills don't ignore armor(Avalanche, Crush) but it really feels like ultimates do little to even tickle enemies around level 55-60. Rather than buff Focus, which is decent by itself, I think we should wait until Armor 2.0 before making requests like this.

 

Some not all. Even M-Prime focus boosted tickles people at level 100.

While stomp and a few others still do reliable damage.

 

But yeah, let's wait for 2.0.

[Madotsuki]

Haven't read most of the replies up to this point, but I agree with the OP, Focus is way too weak right now to be worth it on most frames. I'd say a cap at 60% on Rank 5 should be good, maybe +2 to Focus' base mod energy cost to make up for it.

 

Anyway, OP says in an edit that most people are using ults to counter his opinion. Well then, why not put a cool-down timer on frame ults, and frame ults ONLY? Nothing too long, like a 30 second timer or something. Now people can't spam ults using Flow and Streamline. This actually solves most of the whole Press 4 to Win issue. Ults were meant to be desperation moves for strategic deployment, yet with the energy system as is, it is extremely easy to spam them every time something doesn't go your way, ESPECIALLY in Endless Defense where energy tends to drop like rain. I've played many rounds of Derelict Defense with my clanmates, and there is literally energy all over the floor within the first 5 rounds, not even counting if someone brings a Trinity. Novas can throw M Prime 2-3 times every wave, Rhinos can just sit near the cryopod and use Stomp every time a few mobs get past the outer defense line, Trinities can easily lock some poor Ancient down with Energy Vampire and spam Blessing every few seconds.

 

Ults have ALWAYS lead to Press 4 to Win scenarios, regardless whether Focus is buffed. Honestly, it would be best if more ults like that of Frost's or Mag's can become relevant again in high-end levels using a useful Focus mod, and in turn just put Ults behind a 30 second timer so you can't spam them at your whimsy.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Ults have ALWAYS lead to Press 4 to Win scenarios, regardless whether Focus is buffed. Honestly, it would be best if more ults like that of Frost's or Mag's can become relevant again in high-end levels using a useful Focus mod, and in turn just put Ults behind a 30 second timer so you can't spam them at your whimsy.

It'd become to press 1 to win, or press 4 to win longer then. They had a CD system I think at first before the energy system (correct me if I'm wrong), and people just waited X seconds before going into a room and clearing it. And in "end game" areas (i.e. T3 defense), it's more about CC than damage from skills. Unless the damage is % of their life based, it's gonna become useless at some point, and OP at others. (i.e. mag's pull damage is great for ~30 and under, but useless in damage at T3/70+)

[Aishi]

Focus affects too much.

Rhino Roar, for example.

[goozilla]

While I think 60%/100% is a tad overkill on Focus alone, I do agree with the sentiment that Focus is piss poor.

How about a nightmare mod? One that gives 25% power/50% energy or 25% power/20% efficiency? That way you're forced to remove a slot to use it along with Focus.