The calculation for reload speed and heavy attack wind up feels awful.

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

In some cases it would actually be impossible to exceed the bonus given by Vigilante Armaments even if reload time were reduced to zero. Ignoring crit and status, gun DPS is calculated along the following formula:

DPS = Damage per Shot x Magazine Size / (Reload Time + Magazine Size / Fire Rate)

If you remove reloading entirely, the formula simplifies to the following:

DPS_{No Reload} = Damage per Shot x Fire Rate

If we're separating multishot from the rest of the shot's damage, a gun with Split Chamber + V. Armaments will deal 2.5 times more damage, whereas one with just Split Chamber will deal 1.9 times more damage. There will thus be instances where 1.9 x Damage per Shot x Fire Rate will still not be enough compared to an extra 0.6 to the shot damage modifier. With this in mind, you could probably double, or even triple or quadruple reload speed, and still have the bonus be relatively weak enough to fit in an Exilus slot, as other convenience mods would exist to compete with it.

Yeah, I initially thought they should buff the reload and mag mods and introduce new exilus counterparts with slightly weaker bonuses than we have now.  But it really looks like the base mods  shouldn't be excluded from exilus in the first place--and like you say--they still have some room for buffs. 

(I suppose there are a few problematic weapons that would need special treatment.  e.g., Nagantaka with mag size.)

 

[waterboytkd]

On 2019-12-14 at 9:08 AM, Andele3025 said:

30% reload speed isnt reloading in 0.7 the time, 1.8 reload with 30% reload speed isnt 1.26 which it would be if it increased the speed of the actual reload (as in reload time x (1-reload mod value) or in this example 1.8x(1-0.3)), but 1.38 because it increases the time the reload is scaled from. Unlike a gun which if it gets +30% fire rate shoots 1.3 times instead of 1.43 times which it would if it used the reload calulation.

Are you saying that if you increased the reload speed by 100%, you would reduce the time to reload to 0 seconds? 

You do realize that "increasing the speed of an action by x%" is NOT the same as "decreasing the time it takes to do something by x%", right? Like, if I increase the speed of my car from 20 mph to 40 mph, a 100% increase, I don't decrease the time it takes to drive 20 miles by 100%, which would be 3600 seconds to 0 seconds.

As for Fire Rate, change the stat block from "shots fired per second" to "time it takes to empty the magazine with continuous fire", and you would see the exact same behavior from "Increase Fire Rate by X%" as you do by "Increase Reload Speed by X%".

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, waterboytkd said:

Are you saying that if you increased the reload speed by 100%, you would reduce the time to reload to 0 seconds? 

Yes, because reload speed is time taken divided by a reload event. Not that it should be achievable without at least a 2 if not 3 mod slot cost.

1 hour ago, waterboytkd said:

You do realize that "increasing the speed of an action by x%" is NOT the same as "decreasing the time it takes to do something by x%", right? Like, if I increase the speed of my car from 20 mph to 40 mph, a 100% increase, I don't decrease the time it takes to drive 20 miles by 100%, which would be 3600 seconds to 0 seconds.

Ofc you dont decrease the time because what you should be modifying is the value instead of the divisor (length divided by time, you modify the length, not the time by which the base unit is set)

1 hour ago, waterboytkd said:

As for Fire Rate, change the stat block from "shots fired per second" to "time it takes to empty the magazine with continuous fire", and you would see the exact same behavior from "Increase Fire Rate by X%" as you do by "Increase Reload Speed by X%".

No. If you turn it into a actual time taken to fire x shots, you would still have the same stat with same linear scaling because in the end you would still be modifying value of shots taken by base time (probably everyone calculating it per 1s because it makes the base unit clean, but anything would work).
If you change it to work as reload does, you would actually get the non-linear scale (2s to empty 10 shot mag with -30% time would give 42% fire rate).

[waterboytkd]

15 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Yes, because reload speed is time taken divided by a reload event. Not that it should be achievable without at least a 2 if not 3 mod slot cost.

That's not how increasing the speed of something works. Again, you are confusing "increasing speed" with "reducing the time it takes." Though they are related, they aren't the same. Not in any kind of calculation. And you demonstrate a kind of awareness of that here:

16 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Ofc you dont decrease the time because what you should be modifying is the value instead of the divisor (length divided by time, you modify the length, not the time by which the base unit is set)

Is it the fact that they don't show "Reload Time" in a "per second" format that's tripping you up? Like, a 3 second reload time, written as "mags per second" would be 0.33. Give it a 100% increase and you're at 0.66. Which would take exactly 1.5 seconds to accomplish...the same as if you applied a 100% Reload Speed to the 3 second reload time in game.

24 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

If you change it to work as reload does, you would actually get the non-linear scale (2s to empty 10 shot mag with -30% time would give 42% fire rate).

Again, these mods are pretty specific about what they buff. It's not a -x% reduction in time. It's a +x% speed. If you empty a 10 round mag in 2s, you fire 5 rounds/s. If you have +30% fire rate, you now do 6.5 rounds/s, meaning you empty the mag in 10/6.5, or ~1.54s, or 1.5s if you round only to the tenths place like Waframe does for reload speed. And hey, look, if you put a 30% reload speed mod in a weapon with a 2s reload time, it goes to a 1.5s reload time...but if you want to be more precise, do 2/1.3, which you can quickly see is equal to 10/6.5. 

Again, and for the last time, these mods do NOT decrease the time it takes for an event to happen; they increase the rate (aka Speed) at which it happens. Doubling a thing's speed (aka increasing it by 100%) does not reduce the time it takes to that thing to 0 seconds.

[Andele3025]

27 minutes ago, waterboytkd said:

Again, and for the last time, these mods do NOT decrease the time it takes for an event to happen; they increase the rate (aka Speed) at which it happens. Doubling a thing's speed (aka increasing it by 100%) does not reduce the time it takes to that thing to 0 seconds.

And you do not understand that the crux of the issue is that you are dividing time by divisor time in these two exceptions and thats why they are non-linear which is the issue stated by the OP.

Modifying the divisor instead of value (because the action being measured is time per 1 reload, not reloads per 1 second) results in that and it are the only 2 stats which do so since literally every other stat modifies the numerator/dividend. Is the fact that seconds can be cut apart into smaller and smaller values thus there is a lot more freedom ot switch around how you express the stat but reloads are a binary "yes you succeded" or "no you didnt" thus cant thats tripping you up?
 

[waterboytkd]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Modifying the divisor instead of value (because the action being measured is time per 1 reload, not reloads per 1 second) results in that and it are the only 2 stats which do so since literally every other stat modifies the numerator/dividend.

You forgot Charge Rate, too. Because, it turns out, any stat that's displayed as only time is modified this way. Because to do it the way you think it should be done (-x% of base time to accomplish the task) results in escalating returns--each point gained is worth more, practically speaking, than the last--which would be at odds with all the other mods in the game, with the exception of Efficiency, as they make use of inherent diminishing returns. 

It also works this way because the actions in question have animations for the action. So if these mods didn't do what they explicitly state they do (speed up the action), but instead just chopped off the time like you think they state they do (and the OP seemed to have that misconception, too), you could end up with the weirdness of no animations for reloads or charge times or wind ups. 

But I can see this is pointless to discuss with you. I wasn't the only one to try and explain this, either, which makes me think you're actually just trolling.

[Andele3025]

17 hours ago, waterboytkd said:

You forgot Charge Rate, too. Because, it turns out, any stat that's displayed as only time is modified this way. Because to do it the way you think it should be done (-x% of base time to accomplish the task) results in escalating returns--each point gained is worth more, practically speaking, than the last--which would be at odds with all the other mods in the game, with the exception of Efficiency, as they make use of inherent diminishing returns.

No. Efficiency and all other offense stats other than reload and windup (gun windup speed too/same stat different weapon, in some rare cases actually better because there its actually a charge which progressively alters as what charge attacks/heavy attacks should have been but w/e) are linear.
If 1% is always 1, its not snowballing.

As a example, the other stats being the blue line here, Reload and windup are the red one (you get the same per same investment on blue, not on red). And ill correct myself, we as players do have 1 exponentially scaling stat and thats EHP. And its hard capped because of modding space and amount of mods that influence armor.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Andele3025