Remove the add spawn from Profit Taker fight

[Zsword]

Title covers most of it, but pretty much the main limiting factor to this fight is the giant, overly aggressive and massively overtuned berserk flurry of trash that will happily (effectively) one shot any frame not built to be immortal, and even one shots some of my 'immortal' builds that I take to say, Arbitration like it was nothing. Can't do anything in this fight without being instantly merced by a stray Dera shot.

[taiiat]

they might be annoying but you literally need those Enemies for Ammo and Energy.

[Zsword]

26 minutes ago, taiiat said:

they might be annoying but you literally need those Enemies for Ammo and Energy.

If that was the case they wouldn't be more durable, lethal, and more resource consuming than PT herself, the raknoids that spawn when someone leaves a beacon alive make PT seem like a ratel.

There's 'annoying' and then there's 'they're more of a boss fight than the boss your fighting.'

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, Zsword said:

the raknoids that spawn when someone leaves a beacon alive make PT seem like a ratel.

that's the price you pay if/when people don't keep the Beacons suppressed, shrug.

[Zsword]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that's the price you pay if/when people don't keep the Beacons suppressed, shrug.

You say that like people kill them.

[taiiat]

30 minutes ago, Zsword said:

You say that like people kill them.

if they aren't, that's their user error, and if you end up in a situation where nobody else has enough brain cells to shoot the inanimate objects with a Waypoint, that is indeed unfortunate that others would be so apathetic.

[Amazerath]

Are you playing solo, with random players, or with a coordinated group?

[Chewarette]

What ? No

Profit Taker is actually the only boss from this game that looks like it wants to see you dead, and that's also due to the fact there are tons of adds. But hint: adds are meant to be killed or dealt with and are an entire part of the fight. Remove them and you have Exploiter Orb#2, aka a lame-ass slow-af encounter where the only challenge consists in staying awake.

Just destroy beacons, doh.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

No no no, this is one of the few fun AND challenging fights in the game (along with Eidolons, it's an end-game battle), removing adds or even reducing them is just going to make it water-downed.  

On 2020-04-11 at 3:13 PM, Zsword said:

You say that like people kill them.

If your squadmates aren't killing the beacons then you should be killing them, it's as simple as that.  If the squad fails to control the adds and get overwhelmed, then it's on them and they deserve to fail the mission.  Those beacons don't have a lot of health and are not even remotely hidden, there's no excuse.  

[Zsword]

I don't know how people think getting one shot from every direction with no input on the matter is 'fun', that's not good or interesting encounter design. Barring her invuln phases being too long, Exploiter is a beautiful fight, and Profit Taker has the core to be a similarly engaging 'dodge or die' fest from what I can see, without the 'slow' invuln phases 'dragging it down', but the adds everywhere just turn a piece of art into, a scrambled chaotic mess using artificial difficulty to appease no-life try-hards who only want to play Chroma.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

18 hours ago, Zsword said:

I don't know how people think getting one shot from every direction with no input on the matter is 'fun', that's not good or interesting encounter design. Barring her invuln phases being too long, Exploiter is a beautiful fight, and Profit Taker has the core to be a similarly engaging 'dodge or die' fest from what I can see, without the 'slow' invuln phases 'dragging it down', but the adds everywhere just turn a piece of art into, a scrambled chaotic mess using artificial difficulty to appease no-life try-hards who only want to play Chroma.

If you're getting one-shot then you need to look at your build-out. This is an end-game fight, not for new or mid-tier and there are plenty of frames that can survive it not called Chroma.  And again, "adds everywhere" means nobody taking the time to clear the beacons, that's on you and the squad.  Keep the beacons at alert level zero, and essentially the enemies are fighting at level 40-50 strength (corpus damage on Vallis seems to scale differently than it does on the star chart, but at alert level zero, it feels like level 40-50 and in no way should be 1-shotting even a mid-tier player).  Once you know how to properly play this mission, it's a blast (in more than 1 way).

[Zsword]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

If you're getting one-shot then you need to look at your build-out. This is an end-game fight, not for new or mid-tier and there are plenty of frames that can survive it not called Chroma.  And again, "adds everywhere" means nobody taking the time to clear the beacons, that's on you and the squad.  Keep the beacons at alert level zero, and essentially the enemies are fighting at level 40-50 strength (corpus damage on Vallis seems to scale differently than it does on the star chart, but at alert level zero, it feels like level 40-50 and in no way should be 1-shotting even a mid-tier player).  Once you know how to properly play this mission, it's a blast (in more than 1 way).

Please do like 10 rounds with pubs as say, a Harrow, or Oberon, and tell me how you managed to avoid not falling over to a stiff breeze as the other 3 players do nothing but aim heavy weapons at PT, leaving you alone to handle all of the add clearing with none of the damage or area control necessary to not get shredded. Or bring a mesa and watch as you can never get any energy to maintain your buffs and kill everything else.

PT herself, alone, is a fine and challenging end game worthy fight. She has a complete kit with multiple, intuitive attacks that you can see, plan, and adjust for if given a quarter of a second to actually look at her.

The trash is equivalent to an hour into a survival and completely unnecessary, unintuitive, garbled mess that ruins a perfectly well designed encounter. PT was designed without the trash in mind, otherwise they'd be more intuitive to the fight like every other bosses: Exploiter's raknoids are a critical mechanic while also functioning for ammo reloads, Ropa's amalgams spawn in preset waves of up to... 2 per player? f you really need the munitions, Kela's rollers are part of the 'punishment' for falling off/hiding below the stage rather than facing her up top.

Profit Takers adds don't, ADD anything positive to the fight, they take focus away from a boss that, it turns out, has less health, damage, and CC than they do. Everyone's response to this is 'Okay, so don't fight the boss.' which I'm not sure how you don't see as a problem when the point of a boss fight should be, fighting a boss.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

3 minutes ago, Zsword said:

PT was designed without the trash in mind, otherwise they'd be more intuitive to the fight like every other bosses:

You need Archwing weapons for the fight, and the adds are the only means to getting more ammo as PT doesn't drop ammo.  Yes, mod was intended.

5 minutes ago, Zsword said:

Please do like 10 rounds with pubs as say, a Harrow, or Oberon, and tell me how you managed to avoid not falling over to a stiff breeze as the other 3 players do nothing but aim heavy weapons at PT, leaving you alone to handle all of the add clearing with none of the damage or area control necessary to not get shredded. Or bring a mesa and watch as you can never get any energy to maintain your buffs and kill everything else.

...You literally listed 3 good frames for the fight who have excellent survival mechanisms.  And Corpus drops a lot of energy (which requires ADDS!!).  And, and...if the other 3 are just aiming heavy weapons at PT then you need to take the job to clear adds (more likely they're using builds meant for the fight and don't worry about getting trashed by the mob).  And if you have "none of the damage or area control necessary" then you are bringing the wrong weapons or builds to the mission.  

4 minutes ago, Zsword said:

The trash is equivalent to an hour into a survival

You're not clearing Beacons then.

 

[Zsword]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

You need Archwing weapons for the fight, and the adds are the only means to getting more ammo as PT doesn't drop ammo.  Yes, mod was intended.

...You literally listed 3 good frames for the fight who have excellent survival mechanisms.  And Corpus drops a lot of energy (which requires ADDS!!).  And, and...if the other 3 are just aiming heavy weapons at PT then you need to take the job to clear adds (more likely they're using builds meant for the fight and don't worry about getting trashed by the mob).  And if you have "none of the damage or area control necessary" then you are bringing the wrong weapons or builds to the mission.  

You're not clearing Beacons then.

 

The base adds are as strong as hour surv adds. Clearing beacons doesn't matter when the basic Dera trooper is doing 100+ damage a shot.

I listed 3 great survival frames on purpose because they still get utterly decimated. Corpus don't drop any more energy than any other faction, and you wouldn't need energy without the adds anyway because adds are the main thing that are eating energy. You again are telling me to not fight the boss you came to fight that is supposed to be the center point of the event. I am bringing weapons to fight profit taker, which is high single point damage with various elements for melting the shield. Only one enemy drops heavy ammo specifically, and while it does only spawn in the fight, they spawn in the far more reasonable 3-4s. If they the Heavy Gunners were the only add, that'd be great! They're the least impactful add considering they're hard countered by spacebar so they have actually interesting gameplay instead of 'pretend your in survival.'

[(XBOX)Calliber]

36 minutes ago, Zsword said:

The base adds are as strong as hour surv adds. Clearing beacons doesn't matter when the basic Dera trooper is doing 100+ damage a shot.

I listed 3 great survival frames on purpose because they still get utterly decimated. Corpus don't drop any more energy than any other faction, and you wouldn't need energy without the adds anyway because adds are the main thing that are eating energy. You again are telling me to not fight the boss you came to fight that is supposed to be the center point of the event. I am bringing weapons to fight profit taker, which is high single point damage with various elements for melting the shield. Only one enemy drops heavy ammo specifically, and while it does only spawn in the fight, they spawn in the far more reasonable 3-4s. If they the Heavy Gunners were the only add, that'd be great! They're the least impactful add considering they're hard countered by spacebar so they have actually interesting gameplay instead of 'pretend your in survival.'

....ok you should probably just tell us your frame selection and build because something isn't adding up here.  Frame, mods (with ranks) and acranes equipped and we'll be able to point you in the right direction.

Not concerned with weapons because that's not your primary issue.  Weapons are a secondary issue because "high single point damage with various elements" is not very effective; either you listened to a Youtuber or more likely took advice from the Wiki (which is understandable but not good advice in this specific case).   

Edited April 16, 2020 by (XB1)Calliber

[Zsword]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

....ok you should probably just tell us your frame selection and build because something isn't adding up here.  Frame, mods (with ranks) and acranes equipped and we'll be able to point you in the right direction.

Not concerned with weapons because that's not your primary issue.  Weapons are a secondary issue because "high single point damage with various elements" is not very effective; either you listened to a Youtuber or more likely took advice from the Wiki (which is understandable but not good advice in this specific case).   

If it was a problem with my build I'd be in Player Helping Players. I'm not here to address that bringing a high Impact Magnetic gun to a shield based fight isn't underperforming, because shield phase is fine when I'm given 2 seconds to actually fight the boss instead of it's pointless trash. I'm here to point out that the overly aggressive spawning of adds massively detracts from an otherwise amazing fight. You only need 4 of the heavy gunners to reload on heavy weapon and maybe provide the occasional energy orb if someone needs it (for, some reason on, yet another enemy that's immune to abilities) if that, considering a proper Imperator build can down PT in a single drop.

I'm not saying 'the fight is too hard, make it easier'. I'm saying, 'the fight is fine, please remove the bull**** that's dragging it down'. The adds aren't adding anything to the fight, so remove them. That simple.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

1 hour ago, Zsword said:

I'm not saying 'the fight is too hard, make it easier'. I'm saying, 'the fight is fine, please remove the bull**** that's dragging it down'. The adds aren't adding anything to the fight, so remove them. That simple.

So water down the fight by removing the actual hard part of it....next you'll be asking DE to fire the guns for you.

[Zsword]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Calliber said:

So water down the fight by removing the actual hard part of it....next you'll be asking DE to fire the guns for you.

Adds aren't 'hard', they're not 'difficult', literally the entire game is build around waves upon waves upon waves of trash, excuse me for wanting to experience a well designed encounter that doesn't involve them for what it could be, but they're here cluttering it up anyway, because PT has all the makings of being a fine encounter without the adds, so remove them and let PT shine on it's own.

You compare PT to Eidolons, but Eidolons is a very broad range of difficulty between it's 3 fights, Profit Taker is the equivelant to Teralyst, which Teralyst is an 'entry level' fight (For his content tier, not of the game) that expects very basic equipment: Mote Amp, no Arcanes. Why does he expect that? Because he's the gatekeeper for better Amps and Arcanes. Profit Taker is similar as, of a sort, being our Gatekeeper for Gravimag, and for the most Part, Profit Taker is a very fun, busy fight. 

Between her main cannon, mortar, missiles, leg lightning, jump-rope magnetic pulse, and checker board shield, she is a fine fight on her own. She does not need the trash on top of that because all of her kit is -fine- as a solo boss fight, and the trash is pulling your focus away from all the otherwise reasonably 'skillfully avoidable' attacks which makes that avoiding, impossible cause you can't watch for it.

She has just as much going on as Hydrolyst, while being at Tera's tier. Profit Taker does not need adds past the semi regular spawn of the 4~ heavy gunners to reload on Heavy Gun if you do somehow run out of ammo.

This would also make the fight far more accessible to people who's computers and nets aren't necessarily 100% up to par, either as host or client. Vallis netcode is already a mess, removing strain on that so missiles actually fly instead of teleporting, would make a big difference for everyone's accessibility to the fight. Yes, that would make it 'easier', but it's purely because then the fight would be functioning closer to 'as intended', instead of forcing people to brute force past raw numbers that they can't see coming at them until after they'be been hit.