The New "seekers" Make Me Want To Quit This Game.

[Tyrian3k]

They are necessary for a cooperative aspect of play (think Left 4 Dead).

How about making them grabber type things with a much bigger hit box? The ball should approach at the speed of the saw men and leap at you. If it catches you it locks down your arms and does damage over time. That way you could still jump and walk, but can't attack, and there is a nice big thing that your buddies can hit. Maybe it would also be destroyed with sufficient enemy friendly fire.

If it misses, it sticks to whatever it hits for a few seconds, allowing time for us to disable it, after which it frees itself and chases again. The main thing is hitboxes, and reduced mobility instead of no mobility.

(Bonus mechanic: If you have sufficient energy (maybe 100), holding your melee button will send your power through it and overload it. Alternative, spend shields to overload it. That would introduce an interesting tactical balance decision for the player. )

I wouldn't mind them if it was big enough to notice in the heat of battle.

Another problem is that there's a difference between l4d and Warframe in the importance of each group member to stay alive. In l4d it can become quite a problem to be one man short. In Warframe nobody gives a dam if there's 3 or 4 players alive.

[Brasten]

The RPG elements far outweigh the shooter elements in this game. Got nothing further to add. Your logic falls because of this simple fact.

Power customization != RPG. Is Far Cry 3 an RPG? Crysis? Darksiders? Saints Row? Grand Theft Auto? The Jedi Knight series? Force Unleashed?

They're only unhappy, because they are frustrated at the fact they can't dodge them.

Ya darn right! If I tap sprint to roll I expect to be able to clear it at the last second, not get jerked upright into a jittery stunlock animation, which is what happens. That's if I even see it in the middle of swinging Dual Zoren or my fire rate boosted hammer. Or when I'm just walking into a new tile zone where the Seeker out of sight fires one off due to AI Group Mind. I also enjoy getting stunlocked after coming down from Volt's ulimtate Overload because the ball snapped onto the character model's foot as I went into the floating invulnerable frames of the cast.

They are necessary for a cooperative aspect of play (think Left 4 Dead).

How about making them grabber type things with a much bigger hit box? The ball should approach at the speed of the saw men and leap at you. If it catches you it locks down your arms and does damage over time. That way you could still jump and walk, but can't attack, and there is a nice big thing that your buddies can hit. Maybe it would also be destroyed with sufficient enemy friendly fire.

If it misses, it sticks to whatever it hits for a few seconds, allowing time for us to disable it, after which it frees itself and chases again. The main thing is hitboxes, and reduced mobility instead of no mobility.

(Bonus mechanic: If you have sufficient energy (maybe 100), holding your melee button will send your power through it and overload it. Alternative, spend shields to overload it. That would introduce an interesting tactical balance decision for the player. )

This would be much better. As it still requires a level of team intervention to get rid of quickly, but it doesn't put the player and the team into increasingly bad situtations. A player can attempt to back out to a safer spot for help.

Although I'd still want to see a reasonable time limit for it explode without aid. Maybe a Melee to break bar. Where outside help makes that process much faster.

In some ways that's like the current Ancient Disrupter, which drops both Shields and Power pool. Which forces most players to back out of combat to let their shields recharge. Only this case you can't shoot/melee/power until its off you.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Brasten

[Gestalt]

This is just starting to sound like two sides arguing with "I can deal with it, so DE shouldn't change it; the rest of you should learn to deal with it" vs "I can't deal with it, or I find it fundamentally unfun, so DE should change it."

Change is coming, with update 7, so both sides are arguing unnecessarily. DE has heard the community, and THERE WILL BE CHANGE.

Now, whether they're actually going to rework the grinders and stunballs themselves, or the proposed block mechanic will change our interaction so dramatically with said enemies, nobody knows yet. But things will change.

=================SC2 comparison==================================================

This reminds me of Starcraft2, which has a rather stressful multiplayer ladder (at least where 1v1 ladder is concerned), where most people, save pro-players and professional streamers eventually stopped laddering due to the stress it induces. The stress started to outweigh the fun, so people stopped. Blizzard attempted to remedy it by making it more casual friendly, and less stressful to ladder, and we've seen limited success of that, in the form of increased player numbers. So more people played. Hopefully with the expansion that's coming out in 2 weeks, and the total revamp of ladder interface, more people (read: casuals) will stick around and play as well.

===============end SC2 comparison=================================================

It just makes no sense to go "IT TAKES SKILL!!!! L2P!!!" when said frustration can turn away players. Nobody benefits from a shrinking playerbase, simply due to the devs' unwillingless to modify their game to meet the wishes of players, casual or unskilled or otherwise. Thanksfully DE has proven themselves willing to listen to the community, time and again.

Again, THERE IS CHANGE COMING. Stop pointless debates.

[Skepsis]

Your post was irrelevent. The point of the matter is that people want it completely removed, when it's EASILY dodged/killed. It's not a matter of being "Elite" Or "Casual" It's a simple "oh that's coming I should probably move."

the mechanic is sound, and isn't hard. if you get electrified? A buddy comes and saves you. simple as that. Point is, the game is not easy. but it's not overly hard and in need of serious skill to complete, Getting electrified isn't fun. I know, I've experienced it. but bawing about it isn't going to make it go away. when you see it coming, move, it's not hard. :/ I just wish there were less squeaky wheels and more people taking this on a third person look. So yes, this discussion has a point, and people have their right to vent about the issue, but take into consideration the simplicity of the enemy, It's not a super smart coded enemy, it's not going to stealth and appear behind you with your pants down, it's just a rolly ball of nuisance. It's also there for players to hone their skills at dodging, and getting better at it. so please. Take a moment and think about it.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Skepsis

[Mak_Gohae]

It just makes no sense to go "IT TAKES SKILL!!!! L2P!!!" when said frustration can turn away players. Nobody benefits from a shrinking playerbase, simply due to the devs' unwillingless to modify their game to meet the wishes of players, casual or unskilled or otherwise. Thanksfully DE has proven themselves willing to listen to the community, time and again.

Again, THERE IS CHANGE COMING. Stop pointless debates.

No one befenits for shriking challenges because people are unwilling to use different tactics. It's turns the games into one boring repeating wheel where nothing happens which ALSO drives players away. And in the current state of the game where there isnt that much variety in what we have going on taking away the variety in enemies isnt a good thing at all.

[Zeally]

Suprised to see this topic is still going. Anyway, any amount of arguement that started in this topic, started when various posters let it be known that they would rather have Seeker Nervo's removed entirely (the balls that stun). Several posts debating on changes to make the balls less frustrating and escapable were posted, and still people said "nope not good enough, i want it gone". Now the topic has grown, and I dont care to read back becuase I dont think I'll learn much of anything besides opinions that I either do or do not share. I just hope that DE makes a good choice on what thier next step is, and that a majority of the community finds it suitable.

[J-Pax]

So far in my solo play I've find that latchers don't stun me, they just sit on me an explode after a while, however in group play they do stun and drain yoru shield. I like the fact that it's a genuine hazard in team play. I don't like that it's a pain in the &#! to get it off of allies. Your character should become vulnerable with it, this I agree with. Powers like the Volt Overload should destroy it outright if it doesn't, and shield heals like Trinity's should overload the blighter with energy and make it explode, Loki's invisibility should deactivate it's sensors, making it drop to the ground for 1-2 seconds allowing free shots on it before it trundles off after another Tenno.. This would mean they have a better anti-CC ability in groups which would make for easy protection, but I do agree that the latcher's need to be much more obvious as to their postion. One suggestion I can think of that would add to graphical flair would be to have arching electricity streaming from the ball to the ground, lighting and highlighting itself and it's position on your ally Tenno's frame. Like if I have a seeker on my arm I'd want my arm to be locally lit by it, and have an arc of electricity streaming out from the opposite end of the seeker off onto the ground, giving away both position and direction of where the seeker is. It doesn't need to be changed functionally, just made more obvious.

I also like the turkey-shoot (albeit the turkey is on speed, steroids and has cyborg sprinting legs) that is a seeker charging towards you to unleash it's stunning glory.

Edited March 5, 2013 by J-Pax

[Zeally]

I like the locally effected body parts idea. Nervo on your leg, you lose mobility or the ability to roll or crouch. Nervo on the arm, makes you switch to sidearm and the effected arm is unusable. Nervo on the chest or back makes shields drain, and a Nervo on the head makes your hud go all wonky like the disruptor ancients attack.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Zeally

[MJ12]

In Solo mode, it's easy since there're mechanic to avoid them. However, the duration is definitely too long and the coop mode. They're literally suck all your shield, all of it before explode.

A good coop enemy design require group players to tackle them from different angle or have multiple defense that vulnerable to specific type of element. I woudn't call ME3MP Geth faction a well-designed faction when all they do is stagger/stun player.

Scott is evil :D

The thing about ME3MP is that after patches most of the enemies are manageable. The only stuns come from grenades or telegraphed attacks, and all these attacks have cooldowns so you will never get chainstunned (unless you did something really really ultra super wrong and you are probably already dead by then-I speak from experience). Even the instant kill attacks, which I found annoying, now telegraph properly.

Seeing [Melee] Phantom pop up when playing a N7 Slayer is fantastic. That's how instant kills and stuns should be designed. They should be rare, limited to serious enemies, and telegraphed. I can sword an instant kill enemy to death because of this, if I have my timing right. And that's cool.

The stun ball is there, as a MP mechanic, I don't know how many times I have to repeat that. The purpose of them is to add team play, the STUN BALL is NOT IN SINGLE PLAYER. If you have a team too stupid to pay attention, then that's the fault on the team, not the enemy design. they're bright, glowy and roll on the floor, It's easy to dodge. You complain about them taking away from "being a ninja" Well be a Ninja and AVOID THEM. The disruptor and the balls are there to hinder your abilities And the best part about it? it's all avoidable. If you get hit? That's your fault. not the game. LTP

I think I should remind you of something. Pubbies are awful. Everyone on a forum should remember this. Any MP co-op game should be designed so that at its default settings you can have fun with a bunch of (awful) pubbies instead of having to have a clan of coordinated, skilled players. You should also keep in mind that a playerbase will, by definition, have 50% of its players being of below-average skill. Put yourself in the shoes of that guy who is bad at the game. Why shouldn't he be allowed to have fun? Yes, losing can be fun. If you get wrecked by an incredibly huge horde of enemies, but you can look on your 'kills' list and see like 30 dudes you killed, that's fun.

If you get stunlocked and sit out the game, that's not. I think more than a few people are arguing for Nervos to not stun/get removed entirely because they're aware that there are plenty of bad players. These bad players may be bad. But they also can become paying customers. And because they're bad and going to get resources more slowly, they will be more likely to buy stuff.

You are not the only person who has the right to have fun. Look, if you want a Tenno Must Die Super Platinum mode wherein you get a shiny badge and maybe more credits/mods, go for it. I'll support you fully. If you want the game to not be accessible to poor players, I won't. Not because I'm a poor player (I'm fairly sure I'm at least average) but because those guys are just as much the cornerstone of a community as the pros.

Punishing poor play is one thing, but let me take ME3MP as an example and MGR: Revengeance as another. If you play poorly in close with a Banshee, you instantly die unless your team saves your butt with a close-range cast of Ballistic Blades or a Cobra missile. The punishment is extremely harsh, but it's also very quick. The death penalty versus life in prison. In a game where you can come back to life and try again, the death penalty is far more humane. In MGR: Revengeance failing to block a telegraphed power attack on higher difficulties can take like half your (non-regenerating) health in one fell swoop. That's harsh, but it isn't a stunlock.

Nobody is saying "don't punish poor play". People are saying "the methods chosen to do so are extremely shaky." As an alternate example, imagine if Nervos did two things while draining shields.

One, they jammed your weapon on touch, forcing you to reload to clear it. Second, they guided enemy bullets to you. (It's a play on the word 'Seeker'). See? That'd punish you. You can't shoot for a few seconds (making you vulnerable) and you can't take cover (making you more vulnerable). However, you are still fully in control. A skilled player who made a mistake can recover from it. An unskilled player will at least be having some fun running around slashing people or beating them to death.

EDIT: I actually took a level 18 Frost, a Level 15 Kraken, and a Level 8 Gram into Ceres right now. That was a challenge. Sure, I had like 370 shields but those go fast against Chargers, and I had to dodge a bunch and manage powers, aim for weakpoints... see, I don't mind that kind of challenge. I don't think anyone here does. The thing is that they mind the kind of 'challenge' that comes from being stunlocked and being defenseless while everything kicks you in the face.

Edited March 5, 2013 by MJ12

[neKroMancer]

The thing about ME3MP is that after patches most of the enemies are manageable. The only stuns come from grenades or telegraphed attacks, and all these attacks have cooldowns so you will never get chainstunned (unless you did something really really ultra super wrong and you are probably already dead by then-I speak from experience). Even the instant kill attacks, which I found annoying, now telegraph properly.

Seeing [Melee] Phantom pop up when playing a N7 Slayer is fantastic. That's how instant kills and stuns should be designed. They should be rare, limited to serious enemies, and telegraphed. I can sword an instant kill enemy to death because of this, if I have my timing right. And that's cool.

I stop playing ME3 for a while and Reckonong just add more kits but yeah, after BWdev tinkered with the hunter, it's really manageable. That's after almost 6-7 months post launch.

I agree with the rest of your post about how the game should punish poor play. Banshee, Phantom are good desgn IMO since they manage to creep up on you then it's mean you got tunnel vision. Husk and abomination have mechanic that allow player to get rid of them while other enemies shooting at you. Punishing poor play should be done in a way that doesn't take away player's control for an entire minute.

[Supern00b]

I still havent played a single multiplayer grineer map in the last few weeks.

Jus sayin. I dont mind having to solo all the grineer missions, but I am not playing it multiplayer while that damn nervo taser thing is around.

I dont mind grinders, shockwave moas, runners, leapers, ancient attacks and shield lancers (I think that is all the stuns? Do chargers stun?)

Hell, I actually like Railgun Moas and Grineer heavy's Blinding light. Ancient disruptors are annoying, but atleast I can still move.

Leech osprey are fine too. The ONLY unit I hate is the nervo. Seekers should stay (but be able to be slowed with ice)

Edited March 5, 2013 by Supern00b

[CapricaSix]

But the don't stop you cold. Which is the point. Sure they are annoying. So are Shockwave Moas, so are Leapers (when they start leaping again) and Runners. You can still act while a Grinder is harassing you. You can still in some way be a Space Ninja. A teammate can make your life easier by shooting it (more hitbox fix I think). And if we ever get tech-rolling or blocking, then that's another option to actively deal with the annoyance.

Which is another point against the Stunballs. They prevent a player from being active. Be it purely defensively or becoming more agressive. They are rendered inactive in a game centered around action.

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. A couple of balls rolling around and following you at high speed constantly isn't a minor inconvenience or anything trivial, it's not like shockwaves moas nor leapers either, they've got a single attack which they charge up for and then do it once till they charge up again for quite some time. Grinders roll back and forth and make you stagger. Yes it's not stunlock, but its something close to that when you've got 3-4 stupid balls rolling all around you making you stagger almost nonstop at which point you have to drop whatever you're doing and take care of those little b******s. I'm more annoyed by Grinders than the seekers' stunlock actually.

They're extremely annoying and they don't add anything to the game, so I think they need to go. Nothing to argue there, just my opinion.

[Skepsis]

Dodging the ball is a basic mechanic, and a fundemental one if you wish to stay alive in the game. It's not a differece in hardcore vs. casual play. It's a core mechanic.

[Mak_Gohae]

I still havent played a single multiplayer grineer map in the last few weeks.

Jus sayin. I dont mind having to solo all the grineer missions, but I am not playing it multiplayer while that damn nervo taser thing is around.

I dont mind grinders, shockwave moas, runners, leapers, ancient attacks and shield lancers (I think that is all the stuns? Do chargers stun?)

Hell, I actually like Railgun Moas and Grineer heavy's Blinding light. Ancient disruptors are annoying, but atleast I can still move.

Leech osprey are fine too. The ONLY unit I hate is the nervo. Seekers should stay (but be able to be slowed with ice)

Thanks for the update.

As for my update im playing more Grineer missions making sure to tell people that the balls have waypoints and you can shoot them pretty quick. Or that when they see a ball in the ground they should quickly rush deep into enemy territory because the Seekers are usually hiding in the back . And some times they even hide the same locations so you can go straight to them.

[MJ12]

Dodging the ball is a basic mechanic, and a fundemental one if you wish to stay alive in the game. It's not a differece in hardcore vs. casual play. It's a core mechanic.

Games which punish you massively for a single failed dodge with no real way to avoid being put in this situation are generally either arcade games specifically made to be unfair so you put in more money or... Specifically emulating those kinds of games. Or on the "you are a masochist who gets off on being humiliated and degraded" difficulty mode.

Which is everyone's point. The punishment isn't even fast either. If a Nervo drained all your shields instantly I bet there'd be way less complaining.

[Chocobo]

You know, I read all this 'dodge the ball' nonsense.

I then load up a map, play a round, and end up in a situation where there are literally 4 of them zipping around the ground.

If it was a linear toss, or something, 'dodge the ball' would be a great response.

When they literally turn around when you dodge them (Making, I'd say roughly, a 120 degree turn to do it.) and keep trying for several moments (I stood on a box for about half a minute and watched them rapidly spin around it.) then the response sounds just a little daft.

[CosyPigeon]

Any enemy that takes significant controll away from the player is a bad idea in a game where half the fun is the fact that you are so mobile. It's even worse when you get a stun ball attached to you or to a comrade and the voip isn't working so there is no way to let them know you are in trouble or for them to let you know they are in trouble.

When these sorts of enemies where in left 4 dead there where multiple blatant visual and audio queues to let you know that you needed to help your friends. The music shaprly changed and intensified, the player in question started glowing red through walls and screams for help. In this game you get a barely noticable text message at the bottom of the screen saying "so and so needs your help".

When you combign these factors with the way gameplay in this game plays out (ultrafast wall flipping ninjas who are often randomly thrown together in loose co-op games generally have no incentive to stick together) then these sorts of enemies seem poorly though out.

[Alaric_Kerensky]

Grineer used to be the most fun to fight for me. Simply because it was basicly going ninja on space marines, and I loved it. I just got out of a match with 2 of my buddies on Ceres. We were CONSTANTLY hit by two stunners simultaneously, leaving one guy to try to free both of us when surrounded by no joke a couple dozen marines in a large room. Even when we DID manage to find a Seeker, anther one apparently spawned immediately because a minute later we were getting stunned again. We all lost multiple lives.

I have absolutely no issue with the Seekers besides their electric balls. The explosive balls provide a fun new aspect that is counterable. That is fine and good. However, the electrocution takes ALL control away from a player, which does not force team cohesion, but eliminates all fun.

[Alaric_Kerensky]

It's true, Gestalt!

I intentionally brought this up in our livestream yesterday, I asked the team:

"Let's talk Grineer Seekers! This enemy type has split the player base, but I think the bigger issue is between creating challenges without frustration. How do you do that when designing enemies?"

Our answer starts at: 34:28

Thanks for the continued feedback!

Any issue will split a playerbase to some degree. It is just human nature, and cannot be used as a guage of something being right.. However, in this case it is obvious that the VAST majority are taking the negative standpoint in this issue, myself included. I am known for carying lower level/skill players through some matches. In the event where I get Nervo'd (usually simultaneously with another guy or while trying to get to a guy to revive/de-nervo him) s*** just hits the fan and everybody dies. There is absolutley NO fun with Nervos, simply because there is no challenge with the enemy type, it is simply all frustration. Nothing like earlier tonight when a buddy got Nervo'd 5 meters in front of a Napalm and a supporting squad of Lancers. Napalm had him coated in fire making it nearly impossible to get close enough to revive with the added threat of the Lancers. I only barely saved him because I hapened to be running a Frame with an ungodly amount of shields and fortunately had my rank 30 Akboltos with me just in case stuff went really badly. I still ended up in low health regardless, and the other friend ended up going down as well. Sure enough, I got Nervo'd trying to revive him too, and even though someone shot it off me, I got Nervo'd again seconds later and killed, and the other two got cut down again. Players without gear comparible to mine would never have made it to the first guy to go down in the first place, and the fact that Nervos are an instant "Screw You Ninja" really detracts from the game. They desperately need a rework.

Now if they provided some kind of de-buff, such as halving traits such as your speed, accuracy, and reload/melee speed would be much more interesting! It would cripple a player without completely removing any hope of saving themself with their own skill. To balance the de-buff, as stated before by others I feel the balls should have 1hp, turn much slower and they should be unable to hit a jumping player, allowing diving over them (does not currently work). If latched-on however, they should stay on for maybe 5 seconds, MAXIMUM 10, unless if a buddy shoots it off as is done now. (Although I find the whole "shoot it off" thing rather silly, as we are completely immune to each other's attacks despite getting filled with lead as teammates try to shoot the things off)

Making Nervos actually challenging instead of an "I Win" button for the AI would actually improve the game. Please concider alternatives to their functionality.

[Dagnome]

If there is an element in the game that annoys players thats a good thing, that means DE made a good challenge. They did acknolwegde the hit boxes on those are wrong and they will be correcting them. I know most people gave up on trying to melee them off players because you can spend a good while trying to hack it off sometimes.

[CheeseHasLeafs]

Is there some way to just set up a vote or something? There's not much point saying: "You're the only guy having problems with this, so learn to dodge" or "The vast majority has negative feelings towards this" when really, we don't know if the vast majority does like it or not.

And maybe it should be taken into account that, unlike the wallrunning and Gram, no one actually asked for this, and a few are actually seriously &!$$ed off about it. I myself avoid every map on Earth and Terminus except for the boss maps, and if I'm helping (I call it guardian angel-ing, where I just follow them around and jump in when they're low on health/shields) one of my low-level friends through it.

[CapricaSix]

Is there some way to just set up a vote or something? There's not much point saying: "You're the only guy having problems with this, so learn to dodge" or "The vast majority has negative feelings towards this" when really, we don't know if the vast majority does like it or not.

+1 for having an official poll to see what the community thinks of the "balls", both grinders or seeker balls.

Try to remove a seeker from a teamate using the Furax. Unless the seeker is chest high on the player the furax will never hit it, even with a jumping attack.

Sounds a lot like trying to kill a Grinder with a bolt weapon. Annoying, to say the least. Reminds me of

Edited March 6, 2013 by CapricaSix

[Splosions]

Try to remove a seeker from a teamate using the Furax. Unless the seeker is chest high on the player the furax will never hit it, even with a jumping attack.

[Mak_Gohae]

Try to remove a seeker from a teamate using the Furax. Unless the seeker is chest high on the player the furax will never hit it, even with a jumping attack.

You can actually aim your attacks up and down by moving your reticule around.

[Gestalt]

You can actually aim your attacks up and down by moving your reticule around.

Can you? I was under the impression that melee cannot aim vertically, no matter where you aim your crosshairs. Evidenced when destroying reactor core tubes with regular melee attacks.