The New "seekers" Make Me Want To Quit This Game.

[Oktalz]

The difference is that one takes away control of your character and one doesn't. Don't take away control of our characters, and especially not for a prolong period of time. That's lazy mechanics and frustrating. WoW figured out the unfunness of a character losing total control YEARS ago, and implimented measures against that/to ameliorate that; Warframe doesn't need to resort to that as well.

This is absolutely inaccurate. As an avid WoW player for many years, I can say that the fears and and freezing into place mechanics have existed in WoW since forever. Please do not make such stuff up. I am willing to post countless videos as refference if this is required. I dislike misinformation so please don´t delude people here. It has been in WoW and still is in WoW and it even is in Diablo 3.

Also Warframe is not like WoW, it is more like Diablo in FPS mode and on top of it all I will say it once more. Diablo 3 has CC. But to each their own.

[Happypumkin]

Since they fixed them in single player I don't really have a problem with them anymore. Now I just have to deal with people running ahead like idiots, getting electrocuted/killed, then blaming me for not being there.

Also they can be annoying if you are the only one in the level in multiplayer because noone joined/people disconnected.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Happypumkin

[Oktalz]

Since they fixed them in single player I don't really have a problem with them anymore. Now I just have to deal with people running ahead like idiots, getting electrocuted/killed, then blaming me for not being there.

Also they can be annoying if you are the only one in the level in multiplayer because noone joined/people disconnected.

Hotfix probably coming for the last issue there. When you get host migration the game will probably remove any seekers if you are left alone. Im pretty sure DE will do something about it. They are good at this kind of stuff. But yeah same issue will remain, people running headlessly into situations then crying about their own mistakes. Sounds like League of Legends in a way. Guess the same logic applies to such people no matter the game.

[Brasten]

The Grinder, the leaping rolling ball with blades hits it rather okay. Tweaks maybe but the concept is not overly game disrupting. Espeically since it can be dodged to some degree. Which adds to 'cool' factor of being a space ninja.

No, we are talking about the Seeker, the electric stunball of stupidly small size and super long stun-lock duration with no good counter.

Which can TPK even an alert team in a particularly bad spawn group of Grenader Grineer spam.

I hate to do it but Husks in Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer are basically the same functional stun-lock/damage angle. They are dealt with by the player alone but not before usually breaking shields on all but the strongest classes. They can be removed faster by being shoot off by teammates. That is a team building challenge mechanic without serious frustration. Getting Husk hugged itself isn't bad, but getting Husk hugged while out of position in the open is.

This seems to be the primary flaw in the design of Seeker. The stun ball itself does not need to be supreme challenge. What makes it a challenge is how it combines with getting riddled with Grineer bullites for 2 or 3, maybe at most 5 seconds.

This is why the Grinder rolly spike ball works. Left unattened it will batter a player into the open and give the shooty enemies a chance to riddle the player with space lead. An alert single player can deal with it more or less with the 5 Ds of Dodge Ball. Usually that means they're not shooting at the Shooty enemies, which means more show up, which leads to stacked wall of shooty Grineer make life even harder. But "fun". A team mate helping out does one of two things. Either fights of the shooty Grineer (so they don't kill you) or works at killing the ball you're dodging. Both things can be done at rage, with guns or powers, with minimal disruption to the aiding player.

The Seeker Stunball of Doom does not do this. It just out right punishes, for too long, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Either through ones one foolishness (most often) or just bad luck. It also punishes the aiding player because they have to break off what they're doing to go melee (with sometimes little effect) the ball off. This puts them in the same bad spot the the guy who got stunned is in, out in the open, getting shot at. Or worse getting stunlocked by another ball.

With one bad mechanic you punish 2+ players. I would also argue this is the same as trying to revive a downed teammate. IMO DE needs to lengthen that death time. Even Left 4 Dead isn't THAT brutal. Maybe increase the rate of death each time a player gets downed.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Brasten

[Supern00b]

What isnt fun about applying a tactic to beat a certain enemy?

If the game was nothing but move forward and shoot THAT would be boring.

Please enlighten me on that "tactic"?

Shooting a tiny blue orb rolling around on the ground?

Being hunched over, unable to move or do anything while being shot at?

Spending a minuite trying to remove a ball from some player who cant move, while both of you are being shot at?

My my, that sounds like ample fun. Its not boring or infuriating at all~

Edited March 1, 2013 by Supern00b

[Mak_Gohae]

Please enlighten me on that "tactic"?

Shooting a tiny blue orb rolling around on the ground?

Being hunched over, unable to move or do anything while being shot at?

Spending a minuite trying to remove a ball from some player who cant move, while both of you are being shot at?

My my, that sounds like ample fun. Its not boring or infuriating at all~

You quoted a post telling you some.

Why are you spending a minute removing the ball? There's a waypoint circle showing you where it's at.

And if there are a lot of people around get rid of them first. Hell, let them die if you know you can revive him to a clear area.

[CheeseHasLeafs]

May I ask, will you all tell me if you would cry if the seeker's electroballs were taken out? If just those specific parts of the seeker were removed, would any of you be upset to any great degree? What would your honest answers be?

[Supern00b]

May I ask, will you all tell me if you would cry if the seeker's electroballs were taken out? If just those specific parts of the seeker were removed, would any of you be upset to any great degree? What would your honest answers be?

Well for starters, half my friends who quit Warframe would come back.

So yes, I would be so sad, having my friends playing this game with me again.

[Gestalt]

This is absolutely inaccurate. As an avid WoW player for many years, I can say that the fears and and freezing into place mechanics have existed in WoW since forever. Please do not make such stuff up. I am willing to post countless videos as refference if this is required. I dislike misinformation so please don´t delude people here. It has been in WoW and still is in WoW and it even is in Diablo 3.

Also Warframe is not like WoW, it is more like Diablo in FPS mode and on top of it all I will say it once more. Diablo 3 has CC. But to each their own.

What? I never implied that WoW took the whole CC thing out. Maybe I was being unclear, but the point is early on in the beta, fears and polymorph had no diminishing returns. Blizzard realised the error in this, and they implemented diminishing returns. Because losing control of your character forever, until you die isn't a fun way to die. Losing control of your character for shorter periods of time, and then failing to capitalize on the chance to break out of said loss of control for counterattack is also frustrating, but at least you've no one else to blame but yourself. Hence the change.

I was just on D3 a few hours ago (friends dragged me back, geared me up the wahzoo for free, trying to get me to play again. *roll eyes*) and did some runs to get a few organs to try to forge a Hellfire Ring with my friends' help, and there's really not that much CC by the mobs on the players. A few champion packs might have fear, but it's minimal and don't last very long.

All we're saying is that, it wouldn't hurt the game to have stagger on a diminishing return. If you're so terribad that you get chain staggered by grinders for 20 seconds straight, diminishing returns are not going to help you much as you're filled with lead by other Grineers; on the other hand, if the player is attentive, it shortens the overall stagger time and provide chances to get out of it.

That's all.

[Gestalt]

Indeed but I will quote Scott on this. Mr Grineer himself, if you cause the community to split in agreement then the whole idea is a success and I am 100% behind Scott on this. Besides these enemies are NOT frustrating or irritating at all. Not if you ask me and if you compare them to other enemies in other games. That´s my opinion anyway. To each their own. +1 to Scott.

But you have to remember Oktalz: SCOTTY IS EVIL.

*Edited to delete bunch of boring paragraphs restating essentially the same thing as my last post* =___=

*Edited x2: Oh and, rewatching the Q&A video, just remembered they did mention they're working on a block mechanic that'll hopefully ameliorate the stagger situation; hopefully we get more info on that soon :3*

Edited March 1, 2013 by Gestalt

[Sollet]

Well some sort of diminshing returns would work, I can agree with the whole being stunlocked without any diminishing returns is annoying.

How about introducing this for mobs as well then and not just the player(s)?

Edited March 1, 2013 by Sollet

[Supern00b]

One thing I would like to bring up, is the closest thing I can think of which is a similar stun lock / damage over time mechanic is Left4Dead special zombies.

The thing about L4D is it is explicitly about staying together, whilst Warframe is not. Sometimes it is benificial to have one person stay at the back looting all the boxes and credits, while the others kill all the mobs (geneally the person with the lowest levels falls back)

Also another thing is, Left 4 dead is a PvP game, not PvE. In PvP you are concerned with both sides having fun. In PvE you can screw over the computer all you want since the computer is not concerned with fun. Permanent stun is NOT fun for 99% of the population.

Also removal of the stunlock is much easier in L4D. A hunter can be shot or meleed off with ease (provided you are close to the target), whilst the Taser ball is tiny, requires alot of shooting and aiming, and has glitched out multiple times, where melee doesnt destroy it, or the melee attacks wont hit it, due to the melee arcs not being wide enough to hit the feet or head (the part where the target is stunned).

Edited March 1, 2013 by Supern00b

[CapricaSix]

The thing about L4D is it is explicitly about staying together, whilst Warframe is not. Sometimes it is benificial to have one person stay at the back looting all the boxes and credits, while the others kill all the mobs (geneally the person with the lowest levels falls back)

Also another thing is, Left 4 dead is a PvP game, not PvE. In PvP you are concerned with both sides having fun. In PvE you can screw over the computer all you want since the computer is not concerned with fun. Permanent stun is NOT fun for 99% of the population.

Also removal of the stunlock is much easier in L4D. A hunter can be shot or meleed off with ease (provided you are close to the target), whilst the Taser ball is tiny, requires alot of shooting and aiming, and has glitched out multiple times, where melee doesnt destroy it, or the melee attacks wont hit it, due to the melee arcs not being wide enough to hit the feet or head (the part where the target is stunned).

I agree with you and I think you've made a very accurate comparison there along with some good points, but I wouldn't call L4D a PVP game, it's more focused on Coop PVE than PVP I believe, much like Warframe, but that doesn't really change the fact that the whole "losing control till you're dead" is very inconvenient and frustrating.

I find it very difficult to progress in L4D on your own simply because of the waves of zombies rushing at you all at once, Warframe only has that sort of thing in Defense missions, the rest is about a small number of enemies scattered all over the map that attack you on sight, which is much more easier than L4D to solo it on your own and to not rely on anyone but yourself. In short, Teamwork right now is optional and probably ideal but not required at all. That's why these stunlocks needs to be nerfed. To be more clear, most people -especially PUGs- will simply move on when you're down, just because they can.

Edited March 1, 2013 by CapricaSix

[Oktalz]

What? I never implied that WoW took the whole CC thing out. Maybe I was being unclear, but the point is early on in the beta, fears and polymorph had no diminishing returns. Blizzard realised the error in this, and they implemented diminishing returns. Because losing control of your character forever, until you die isn't a fun way to die. Losing control of your character for shorter periods of time, and then failing to capitalize on the chance to break out of said loss of control for counterattack is also frustrating, but at least you've no one else to blame but yourself. Hence the change.

I was just on D3 a few hours ago (friends dragged me back, geared me up the wahzoo for free, trying to get me to play again. *roll eyes*) and did some runs to get a few organs to try to forge a Hellfire Ring with my friends' help, and there's really not that much CC by the mobs on the players. A few champion packs might have fear, but it's minimal and don't last very long.

All we're saying is that, it wouldn't hurt the game to have stagger on a diminishing return. If you're so terribad that you get chain staggered by grinders for 20 seconds straight, diminishing returns are not going to help you much as you're filled with lead by other Grineers; on the other hand, if the player is attentive, it shortens the overall stagger time and provide chances to get out of it.

That's all.

I agree with you ont his reply. However I think poor play deserves to be punished. I belive that it inspires people to try and become better. I play games such as DOTA 2 and League of Legends. DOTA 2 is vastly more difficult and I preffer that over LOL simply because the better you get the more rewarding it feels. The focus on CC is huge in DOTA 2 and yet there isn´t much whine about it. People know this and the developers know this and as such people adapt. I think the Warframe community should be the same, and I don´t think we should cater to the 14 year old call of duty demografic and make this just another spray and pray mindless shooter. Alternate paths is coming, pitfalls that punish players healthpools, CC and higher HP mobs. I like this, I think it´s for the better and as DE_Steve said once in a reply one one of my posts. This is an ARPG more than anything else, it is at least the core of the game. RPG´s are known for their more complex play rather than the average shooter and I for one want it to stay that way. If you suck, then get better. If you can´t get better well I´m sorry the world is a cold and harsh place and the weeds will eventually get leveled and a parkinglot will be built on top of them.

In short. Can´t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, or as I like to think "temper yourself and no task is to hard, and the reward is then so much sweeter".

[Supern00b]

I am more concerned with the fact you find having all control being taken away from you an enjoyable part of the game.

The fact is that many games have been dumbed down and destroyed because the difficulty level has been thrown down the drain. I´d like to see you people play Final Fantasy Tactics

Really now? Final fantasy tactics? The game where you can literally just farm the other parties who wandered around the map? To the point where my Marche could 1shot literally every single main quest monster? Who had dual swords and strikeback, so even when he was attacked, he would take no damage and immediately counter? Hard? Talk out of your &#! more please.

And the two genres arent even related. JRPG and FPS, a whole lot of overlap that is.

Having difficulty is fine. I find most modern games much too easy. Jumping off a cliff should take away most of your health for example.

But a $&*&*#(%& stunlock ball, which would be the equivalent of a Left4Dead hunter (but with 1/100th the size) is plain $&*&*#(%&. Especially in a PvE game.

CC is important in PvP games like Dota and Left4dead. Skill lands abilities which stun or incapacitate enemies. You punish enemies for being out of position. But If Stunlocks and Crowd control are the best DE can come up for a PvE game for gamer adversity, I am obviously in the wrong game.

You want a challenging FPS? Play Tribes or Unreal. They have depth, and ZERO CC (spider mines and emps arent CC)

Edited March 1, 2013 by Supern00b

[Oktalz]

I am more concerned with the fact you find having all control being taken away from you a enjoyable part of the game.Really now? Final fantasy tactics? The game where you can literally just farm the other parties who wandered around the map? To the point where my Marche could 1shot literally every single main quest monster? Who had dual swords and strikeback, so even when he was attacked, he would take no damage and immediately counter? Hard? Talk out of your &#! more please.

And the two genres arent even related. JRPG and FPS, a whole lot of overlap that is.

Having difficulty is fine. I find modern games much too easy. Jumping off a cliff should take away most of your health for example.

But a $&*&*#(%& stunlock ball, which would be the equivalent of a Left4Dead hunter (but with 1/100th the size) is plain $&*&*#(%&. Especially in a PvE game.

CC is important in PvP games like Dota and Left4dead. Skill lands abilities which stun or incapacitate enemies. You punish enemies for being out of position. But If Stunlocks and Crowd control are the best DE can come up for a PvE game for gamer adversity, I am obviously in the wrong game.

You want a challenging FPS? Play Tribes or Unreal. They have so much depth, and ZERO cc.

Well they could just add groups of 5-man teams of heavy grineer with 2 rocket users ( and increas their rate of fire by 50%) Gorgon users and 1 who throws grenades at you like a sweep team and then add so that their resistance to spells and their duration is halfed. That´s another way to do it. I´d actually like it, but people would $#*(@ when they realise they also have the rest of the fodder to deal with at the same time as these guys and then would say that these sweeper teams just have to get removed.

How about that?

[Supern00b]

Well they could just add groups of 5-man teams of heavy grineer with 2 rocket users ( and increas their rate of fire by 50%) Gorgon users and 1 who throws grenades at you like a sweep team and then add so that their resistance to spells and their duration is halfed. That´s another way to do it. I´d actually like it, but people would $#*(@ when they realise they also have the rest of the fodder to deal with at the same time as these guys and then would say that these sweeper teams just have to get removed.

How about that?

You see, that I have no problem with, that means I can use my OWN SKILL to actually do something.

Being held in place by a stupid tiny ball, while having no option but to rely on other people?

Well there is a reason I refuse to play Greneir missions anything but solo.

Shockwave Moas, Runner infected, even the giant Roller ball (despite looking $&*&*#(%& as hell), I like those. They are temporary stuns. They can be avoided and shot relatively easily. They punish you for not dealing with them. Even ancient disruptors, while infuriating as hell, atleast are avoidable and noticable, and even if you loose sheilds and energy, YOU CAN STILL MOVE!

Edited March 1, 2013 by Supern00b

[Oktalz]

You see, that I have no problem with, that means I can use my OWN SKILL to actually do something.

Being held in place by a stupid tiny ball, while having no option but to rely on other people?

Well there is a reason I refuse to play Greneir missions anything but solo.

I honestly think you underestimate the skill part. Skill is to not get caught. This applies to the ball thingy also. What you realy have problems with is not the balls, your issue is with the other players who refuse to help you, or that you are forced to help over and over cause they play like dorks. That´s the bottom line. It is just a matter of teamwork. When I play with randoms I feel the same way, it just doesn´t make me throw a fit over it. Always that person on your team who keeps dying or gets caught cause he headlessly rushes ahead and gets zaped.

When I sit on mumble with my friends the feeling is completely different. We laugh when someone gets caught and we help eachother out and I think the underlining idea that DE have exactly this. Teamwork and coordination. Once this whole GUNGHO attitude settles the games are bound to get better. People just don´t ge that you now can´t play a Grineer map the same way you can do on a corpus map or an Infested map and that bothers them.

I think if you get your friend to come back, and you play together with voice com and get two other friends you will see how much difference that small addition makes to the Grineer maps. Am I on target here? Be honest with yourself. If you don´t mind a sick sweeper team like the one I mentioned (which btw I have to ask Steve to add to the game) then you can see the thought proces behind the seekers.

Oktalz

Edited March 1, 2013 by Oktalz

[Tyrian3k]

There is only one thing that is annoying about them:

The basically infinite timelimit.

Right now it usually ends in the player or the ball dying.

The only way to get it off is relying on a teammate, which is about as annoying as if laser barriers would always kill in one hit where only a teammate can revive you.

Another problem is that new players are never properly introduced to them and will likely not realize what's going on at all.

Those balls do, however, have a huge potential to be a boss attack that makes the boss into more than just a bullet sponge.

[NinjaTyr]

Make the balls "die" after a short time.

[Karpatz]

Don't know who's ideea was this to add these balls to the game (all of them blade , exploseive and shock ones ) but all it does is making people stay away from grineer map . I do not find them fun , challenging nor do i feeel they add anything to the gameplay other than frustration and annoyance .

[Venarge]

Ok so these new little Grineer balls that latch onto you and stun you...terrible idea.

First it was the chain stunning.

Then it was the fact that they made single player impossible.

Now, even in multiplayer, I am stunned every 5 seconds with some crap electric animation as my teamates do nothing for 5 minutes trying to find the little ball that is attatched to me somewhere.

These things are the worst thing to ever happen to this game and are INCREDIBLY fustrating.

I don't think I can even play Grineer levels until they are nerfed or removed.

So you want enemies that just run into you and die? Srly. They are hard to hit and annoying, but damn they are challenging as well.

Im runnin around with my lvl 13 on earth. Weapons same lvl and I still beat it on solo. Its hard but not impossible.

[Zinn]

I don't have as much of a problem with the balls in general as I used to, since they changed them to actually be affected by skills and such. However, I still sympathise with the core problem, which isn't that they are moving fast or hard to hit but that they're taking control away from you. I'm all for bouncy tricky enemies that do damage but why is it necessary for them to stun you? Stunning in a game like this is fundementally a bad mechanic when it isn't a part of something big and obvious like a boss or Ancient, where you can clearly see it coming and move away.

Why not simply make the stun-version of the small Grineer balls latch on and drain your shields, similar to Corpus leeches? Is there really a need for you to be completely immobilised and watch yourself die to trash enemies - not because you lack the skill to kill them but because you got caught by something random in the crowd? The problem was the same with the Grinders but at least they can be 100% seen and murdered by most skills now, whereas these new enemies are so small you barely notice them. Hell, sometimes they've been rolled out by a Grineer that wasn't even in the same room as me. I have thankfully never been stunned by the new enemies but I'm sure that'll happen sometime and I have seen one of my clan-mates constantly caught by them. They were so small I didn't even notice them but he died 3 times in a row at the same spot and I was just wondering WTF was going on. Mind you, all of us were running high level frames and weapons, so it wasn't like we just had a rank 5 guy tagging along.

Taking control away from the player = bad

Small and fast enemies = good

Edited March 3, 2013 by Zinn

[Oktalz]

I don't have as much of a problem with the balls in general as I used to, since they changed them to actually be affected by skills and such. However, I still sympathise with the core problem, which isn't that they are moving fast or hard to hit but that they're taking control away from you. I'm all for bouncy tricky enemies that do damage but why is it necessary for them to stun you? Stunning in a game like this is fundementally a bad mechanic when it isn't a part of something big and obvious like a boss or Ancient, where you can clearly see it coming and move away.

Why not simply make the stun-version of the small Grineer balls latch on and drain your shields, similar to Corpus leeches? Is there really a need for you to be completely immobilised and watch yourself die to trash enemies - not because you lack the skill to kill them but because you got caught by something random in the crowd? The problem was the same with the Grinders but at least they can be 100% seen and murdered by most skills now, whereas these new enemies are so small you barely notice them. Hell, sometimes they've been rolled out by a Grineer that wasn't even in the same room as me. I have thankfully never been stunned by the new enemies but I'm sure that'll happen sometime and I have seen one of my clan-mates constantly caught by them. They were so small I didn't even notice them but he died 3 times in a row at the same spot and I was just wondering WTF was going on. Mind you, all of us were running high level frames and weapons, so it wasn't like we just had a rank 5 guy tagging along.

Taking control away from the player = bad

Small and fast enemies = good

I love the part when you say "You die but not because you lack skill, but because something (random) hit you in the crowd". How are the balls random? The seeker intends to kill you and stun you. It´s like saying the bullets from the Grineer machineguns are random if you so should die from them cause they kill your shields and die cause you were not carefull. Just as you don´t stick with your team and allow them to back you up when you get hit by a seeker ball. There is NOTHING random about it, it´s intentional and if you die it´s because of yourself.

There are other hard games out there, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, Dark Souls, Demon Souls and they sell like hotcakes and they have stuns and disables and knockdowns. And every reviewer who has ever talked about the games says that the only frustrating thing about the games is that when you die you have no one else to blame but yourself.

That is my final quote on this subject. You people need to l2p this game as it was intended, as a squadbased shooter. There is trial and error and if you keep dying to the same thing over and over without learning and adapting then imho you should keep dying to that same thing untill you learn from it. There is no excuse for being careless in real life or in a game. It´s as silly as blaming the driver that hit you with his car when you j-walk, I can make an even sillier example like when you burn your tounge on hot food before you try and cool it down Was the food the reason you got burned or was it you who simply didn´t take the time to realise that you might want to wait a while?

I rest my case. You people are all the same, Warframe didn´t throw the first stone here. You guys did. End of discussion.

[GoldFusion]

i wouldn't be surprised if the enemies on update 7 would be more annoying than the current enemies