Please, no more side-grades with new riven dispo being .5

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

On 2020-06-09 at 11:14 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

will stop the crazy prices on rivens for brand new weapons,

factually false. God rivens will be even more expensive due to the stats needed for the mod to even be worth a slot in damage or utility potential

At .5 there are no 'god' rivens. Even a roll with 3 super useful positives and a harmless negative are going to be such small actual increases that they will be a small boost at best.

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

At .5 there are no 'god' rivens. Even a roll with 3 super useful positives and a harmless negative are going to be such small actual increases that they will be a small boost at best.

Also factually false, and you should gander upon tigris and venka rivens to understand why.

[Kayll]

The change seems more like DE holding the riven buyers back because they can't think far enough ahead to think whether a new weapon will have a lower disposition than they initially release yet, no one can complain about their 3k plat uber-duber god riven being nerfed if it already starts at the lowest disposition possible.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

6 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

8 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

At .5 there are no 'god' rivens. Even a roll with 3 super useful positives and a harmless negative are going to be such small actual increases that they will be a small boost at best.

Also factually false, and you should gander upon tigris and venka rivens to understand why

I have. In the previous meta of 100% status you couldn't get enough +status chance on a Tig riven to let you drop a 60/60, and it wouldn't get enough +anything else to let you drop another mod. You needed a really good roll for it to even be useful.

The only people who reckoned 'god roll' Tig Prime rivens worthwhile were the folks selling them for ungodly amounts of plat and the suckers they took in.

In the new meta the Tig Prime just isn't that good anymore.

The Venka Prime is still amazing, though I really miss the old combo modifier the added range is really good. It's hybrid, so it can use status, it can use crit, there are loads of good combinations for it, so there's no perfect 'god roll' that it needs to reach some next level.

[-Kittens-]

Your assumption that I was talking about +status to substitute for a prime mod further highlights that you, in fact, do not know the value of a .55 riven or how it needs to be configured and why peeps will be charging absurd prices for them, much more than they do now; especially for secondaries and melee with 3+1 but good on theory craft I guess, meanwhile VP's dps with a double crit plus neg and umbras will basically vaporize anything up to 350 or so.

It's not just the riven, it's the environment the riven is expected to operate in.

[SpringRocker]

On 2020-06-09 at 3:34 AM, Jiminez_Burial said:

Just another example of why weapons should never have been 'balanced' by Rivens.

I'd rather have Rivens removed and have them go back and rebalance weapons. The way they are now feels like an excuse to ignore any weapon that's older than 6 months. It kind of shows because some weapons 2-3 years old that had bugs on release STILL have bugs because no one even look at them (despite bountiful bug reports).

It's like Rivens were created expecting them to have "the system balance itself" but it was a bad idea from the beginning. They're either a way to:

• Make an already powerful weapon better.
• Or be able to get custom stats.

I hate to say it, but we're stuck with them now 😞 . they're such a big driving force for plat economy that their removal might crash the flow of plat 😞 .

 

A system built without Rivens intending to "balance" them would have a lot of problems solved.

[Thrymm]

3 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'd rather have Rivens removed and have them go back and rebalance weapons. The way they are now feels like an excuse to ignore any weapon that's older than 6 months. It kind of shows because some weapons 2-3 years old that had bugs on release STILL have bugs because no one even look at them (despite bountiful bug reports).

It's like Rivens were created expecting them to have "the system balance itself" but it was a bad idea from the beginning. They're either a way to:

• Make an already powerful weapon better.
• Or be able to get custom stats.

I hate to say it, but we're stuck with them now 😞 . they're such a big driving force for plat economy that their removal might crash the flow of plat 😞 .

 

A system built without Rivens intending to "balance" them would have a lot of problems solved.

I agree that they're a bad idea, and said as much when they where introduced, ESPECIALLY the way they where(and are) introduced into the game.  The overall economy and balance damage has pretty much been exactly what was expected by those of us that thought they where a move in the wrong direction.

They can't be removed though.  Millions of plat has changed hands on Riven trades, and who knows how many dollars to make it happen.  It'd be downright unethical to backtrack on it now.

Weapons have always kept their bugs, though, more or less right from the beginning.  We always had something not working right and watched as updates came and went(and we used to see alot more updates back then, too), and some things just didn't get attention. 

Except Trinity.  Trinity got attention every patch, and by attention, I mean nerfed.  On Wednesday.  Ever week.  Things where better back then though, so maybe that's the solution.  Nerf Trinity!

I also agree that they don't fix anything either--the good gets better, and the bad doesn't get good enough.  I think there's two reasons for this.

1.  The first is that there is just a horrendous power disparity, a remarkable slow to update disposition system, and little if any personal insight brought into the process, instead opting to rely far too much on "usage".  Over and under usage can tell a story, but honestly all they tell you is where to look for things, not at all what they really are.  Many weapons with low usage are clunky and unintuitive, and no amount of +damage and multishot is going to fix that.

2.  The second is that they simply don't matter.  If I liked a weapon before, I like it now.  If I didn't, I still don't.  There's no way in hell I'm going to invest any Kuva in the Spectra or Sheev rivens in my inventory, for example, because there's really no saving stuff like that.  Similarly, I already liked the Buzlok and Twin Grakata, so with rivens they are still big parts of my arsenal, except better.  The prices people pay at market tells pretty much the same story.  Good weapon, high priced rivens.  Bad weapon, good luck giving them away.  They haven't touched the issue they where presented to fix.

Which brings us to primary kitguns and .5 dispositions.  Frankly, now that they are available, I don't see any way to build a kitgun primary that would justify the lowest riven disposition.  On the plus side, that means we can probably expect kitgun buffs because there is no real concern that a riven is going to hurt anything on them.  On the minus side, DE should have known this.  None of them have unique mechanics so we've got things to compare them to and know what to expect.  All it'd have taken is to just look.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

14 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

VP's dps with a double crit plus neg and umbras will basically vaporize anything up to 350 or so.

Venka Prime will do that with Blood Rush and no riven. It doesn't need a riven, and it takes an hour of endless mode to get to level 350 anyway. I think that makes the .5 riven pretty worthless, but anyone selling them is going to disagree 

14 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Your assumption that I was talking about +status to substitute for a prime mod further highlights that you, in fact, do not know the value of a .55 riven

Er, OK. Share a build of the Tig Prime in the current met that becomes godly with a riven then.

Anyone buying a Tig Prime riven for more than about 200p is a sucker, there's just no game changing roll possible for it at .55 (even with 3+ and 1-), but if you have one please share, I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

14 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

why peeps will be charging absurd prices for them

People charge absurd prices for rivens because they want plat, and it's a very volatile market. It doesn't mean the mods are worth that. Some dupe bought Primed Chamber for 300000 plat, that doesn't make PC worthwhile, it just means they were rich a gullible.

There are a lot of people on these forums, and discord, and Reddit, who are all "you NEED this rare roll" and they're the same one that are "nooooo why!" whenever dispo nerfs are announced. Any riven that makes a good weapon godly is doomed, always. Don't spend loads of money on them, ever.

DE only want rivens that make mediocre weapons good, because that's the point of rivens.

Speaking of which...

12 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'd rather have Rivens removed and have them go back and rebalance weapons

No.

Warframe is not about balance, and even if it was Warframe's weapons are on a scale and built for variety. I like that rivens can give me a reason to return to overlooked or underpowered weapons.

That said I think rivens do show up some fundamental game imbalances that are a problem - not because some weapons are better, but because some entire classes of weapons have problems. I don't think rivens should be used to fix general problems with bows or beams.

14 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

It's like Rivens were created expecting them to have "the system balance itself" but it was a bad idea from the beginning. They're either a way to:

• Make an already powerful weapon better.
• Or be able to get custom stats

This is wrong, rivens were never supposed to do that. DE said from the beginning that they never wanted rivens to be a way of maximising the best weapons. 

Rivens are supposed to give mediocre weapons enough of a boost that you can use them at higher levels. They don't want, say, the Rubico with a perfect roll riven to be the only best way to kill eidolons, and they've nerfed the Rubico's dispo into the ground precisely to try and stop that meta.

It's not really balance - you're probably not going to take the Vectis over the Rubico Prime anyway, but a riven might give you cause to give it a go.

For the custom stats that really seems to be the focus of NW mods, trying to get you on to the Bronco or Convectrix or Marelok or whatever.

 

[SpringRocker]

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

This is wrong, rivens were never supposed to do that. DE said from the beginning that they never wanted rivens to be a way of maximising the best weapons. 

Rivens are supposed to give mediocre weapons enough of a boost that you can use them at higher levels. They don't want, say, the Rubico with a perfect roll riven to be the only best way to kill eidolons, and they've nerfed the Rubico's dispo into the ground precisely to try and stop that meta.

It's not really balance - you're probably not going to take the Vectis over the Rubico Prime anyway, but a riven might give you cause to give it a go.

It's like you didn't even read what I said.

You say I'm wrong, then make points and agree with what I'm basically saying.

Edited June 15, 2020 by SpringRocker

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

It's like you didn't even read what I said.

You say I'm wrong, then make points and agree with what I'm basically saying

I dunno, I though you were fairly clear...

21 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

I'd rather have Rivens removed and have them go back and rebalance weapons

And I don't want to remove rivens and don't want them to go back and rebalance weapons.

Destiny balances it's weapons really carefully and they're really dull, and even then they often get stale metas for one Exotic with just the right roll. I don't want balance, I want crazy stuff like the Lenz or Mutalist Cernos, even if that means I also get the Stug and Convectrix.

Rivens aren't balance. They aren't there to make the bad weapons replace the meta. They are there to boost those weapons a little and give you a reason to go back to them. Rivens have lead me to little gems like the Pox or the Arca Sisco, weapons I went and had some fun with before going back to my meta (which are still more powerful).

In any case, we can agree to disagree.

[SpringRocker]

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I dunno, I though you were fairly clear...

Go back, read what you said, and read what I said.

After that come back and tell me what you think I'm saying.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

6 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

After that come back and tell me what you think I'm saying

Nope. I quoted you directly. This discussion is pointless. No, I'm not going to tell you what I know you said because it was in the quote for the 3rd time. This sub-argument is a waste of time.

So you agree that we should have rivens? You agree that they aren't there to make the best weapons better? You agree that weapons in Warframe don't need to be 'balanced'. Great. Confusion avoided, we agree.

Back on the actual topic: now that rivens on new weapons have no chance to accidentally supercharge them, can new weapons start powerful? Can we stop with the side grades? How is it that the new primary kitguns are objectively worse (by almost every measure of damage, range or utility) than the secondaries? 

[SpringRocker]

On 2020-06-14 at 5:26 PM, SpringRocker said:

It's like Rivens were created expecting them to have "the system balance itself" but it was a bad idea from the beginning.

 

17 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

This is wrong, rivens were never supposed to do that. DE said from the beginning that they never wanted rivens to be a way of maximising the best weapons.

What part of what I said that Rivens were created as a way to maximize weapons?

 

On 2020-06-14 at 5:26 PM, SpringRocker said:

They're either a way to:

• Make an already powerful weapon better.
• Or be able to get custom stats.

 

17 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It's not really balance - you're probably not going to take the Vectis over the Rubico Prime anyway, but a riven might give you cause to give it a go.

Exactly, it's not really balance, it's just a way to make an already powerful weapon better or to get custom stats.

 

I guess some people are so ready to argue but never learned critical thinking skills back in school.

[CloudATL]

Le 13/06/2020 à 23:39, -Kittens- a dit :

factually false. God rivens will be even more expensive due to the stats needed for the mod to even be worth a slot in damage or utility potential.

that's true. Zenistar : Super low dispo, and crazy high prices back then.

Players demand good rolls over high stats, and those are still just as rare, so the amount of offer is the same as before.

How about veteran players who stack plat ? We only got rivens to spend plat on, and usually we're those with the most plats. So yea, good rolls get super expensive cuz the rolls are scarce enough for that rich community's demand.

This whole thing gets so much ink spilled...