Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[-CM-Syein]

The main point here, and this is the only thing I wan't you to respond to because your posts are a bit to long and hard to sit through is this.

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance

 

Nova has no weakness in bulk, she is better than a decent amount of frames. She has average health, armor, and less than average shields. However, this is completely offset by her mobility, M prime, and the nature of the games scaling predominately. There is no arguing this, it is fact. Every frame can solo, and every frame has decent survive-ability because of the mobility:bulk curve the game has, stop using them it just doesn't work. I don't realize why you think repeating fully refuted to the point of no return arguments supports anything you are saying. (here is a quote from far cry 3- The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting the results to change, that is what you are doing)

 

Really man, she shouldn't be so good at everything, and the only counter argument has been slightly valid is an extremely flawed response of "buff everything1!!". It doesn't work, you cannot just make everything more powerful and not expect a cycle of redundancy, and it breaks even the most simple game design principles.

Let me tell you this, the main problem people had with her is she stole other's people kills. No one said Nova is good at survival. She is good at everything is your argument that ignore other frames who are capable of good at everything as well. 

I could bring a loki in solo mission, survival mission, defense mission, capture, or any other kind of situation and be good at everything. Because his skill apllied for everything/ This whole points of the game required shooting and hiding, Loki good at both, morever making enemies had no guns? No matter how strong a ultimate is, eventually gun capable of outdps it. A frame can not do anything at the end without gun/ 

[Cwierz]

Let me tell you this, the main problem people had with her is she stole other's people kills. No one said Nova is good at survival. She is good at everything is your argument that ignore other frames who are capable of good at everything as well. 

Trinity, Nova, and a couple other pieces of content need a straight up nerf in the face if we ever want an endgame. Because I am done with this argument I will keep it brief, Nova is the best at multitudes of things, she has indirectly had her weaknesses removed. I believe that some of the core problem with her design at the moment is that people believe that her weaknesses are relevant, when in truth they don't exist.

 

If you want my opinion about how to nerf nova, I say we make your claims valid. She shouldn't be good at survival, so why make her?... that is for other frames, not nova. Remove the slowing aspect from M Prime, although it is largely discredited it is a bigger problem then people are perceiving it to be.

 

I could bring a loki in solo mission, survival mission, defense mission, capture, or any other kind of situation and be good at everything. Because his skill apllied for everything/ This whole points of the game required shooting and hiding, Loki good at both, morever making enemies had no guns? No matter how strong a ultimate is, eventually gun capable of outdps it. A frame can not do anything at the end without gun/ 

 

That is more a problem with us not having an endgame, and mod systems just being not thought out well for anything besides a finite progression system. This subject is way to huge to discuss in such a simple thread, and will most likely require multitudes of threads (that will never be acted on) just to address.

 

If there was a definitive endgame it would become so clear as to why nova is better than the other frames. I personally don't think it is ever going to happen, but when it does/if it does you guys will definitely see it. But whatever, I am done with this argument, most replies from the other side have been gradually degrading, veering off topic, or turning to flame. 

 

Side note: No matter what anybody says about trinity she will always be OP. If a frame can make you immortal forever something is fundamentally wrong, you don't even need to elaborate further then that.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Cwierz

[WinterishRope]

Don't nerf nova . After playing with nova ,yes she's possibly the best long rang ult spamming frame but she has weaknesses. If anything frames like excalibur and ember should be getting buffs to boost them up to a better lvl

[WinterishRope]

If anything mp should be done like nyx chaos . You shouldn't be able to spam it over and over when it's still out.

[-CM-Syein]

If there was a definitive endgame it would become so clear as to why nova is better than the other frames. I personally don't think it is ever going to happen, but when it does/if it does you guys will definitely see it. But whatever, I am done with this argument, most replies from the other side have been gradually degrading, veering off topic, or turning to flame. 

 

Side note: No matter what anybody says about trinity she will always be OP. If a frame can make you immortal forever something is fundamentally wrong, you don't even need to elaborate further then that.

definitive endgame haven't even reach yet when current mastery is only 14, and it will become clear how other frames better than Nova in areas.

well your argument, my argument, we haven't reach a conclusive. I'm also done here, for Trinity op or not I could take it on Trinity thread, side note: Trinity is not immortal forever. 

[ThePresident777]

Really, I mentioned metrics once. I called fun a crappy metric, that doesn't mean I have to answer to your baseless grabs and a failed point. Fun is a crap metric period. Just to make sure you know as well... that doesn't even mean I am using metrics in the first place, and thinking so is illogical.  I am using one, but I don't feel like telling you because it will start a useless side topic that you will illogically relate back to the main topic.

 

This isn't relevant at all, and I am now fully convinced without a doubt you cannot and will not ever disprove my statement above.

 

So, in other words you're just making stuff up as you go.  You have no referance, no balance point, no method. no standard, no objectivity, no logic.  You're going strictly by feel then trying to rationalize it and acting as if the burden is on us to "disprove" your "logic".  The burden of proof for your assertions is on you and you have not proven a thing.

[ThePresident777]

If anything mp should be done like nyx chaos . You shouldn't be able to spam it over and over when it's still out.

 

No thx, I like spamming powers.  It's one of the things I can do in Warframe that I can't do in other games.

[Cwierz]

 

 

So, in other words you're just making stuff up as you go.  You have no referance, no balance point, no method. no standard, no objectivity, no logic.  You're going strictly by feel then trying to rationalize it and acting as if the burden is on us to "disprove" your "logic".  The burden of proof for your assertions is on you and you have not proven a thing.

If it makes you feel better, you can call a logical conclusion illogical if it makes you feel better. Like it isn't based soley on direct comparisons and observations with a sprinkle of logic and basis in reason or mathematical relations. It doesn't have any valid points, at all actually, lets just ignore that.

 

Game balance is a complex thing, and trying to dumb it down doesn't work this time. Game theory and design was created from observation of what works, it wasn't created before games, if you want a larger understanding (I was introduced to it through playing chess and competitive team fortress 2) you need to explore it individually. It is about relations between game mechanics, comparisons, and how the game is actually played by players. It doesn't have to be based on a metric, but that doesn't mean it isn't rooted and has its roots in logic and reasoning, nor that it doesn't have a resemblance of a mathematical system. The intricate web that makes up game balance gets harder and harder to describe as more and more content is added, it simply isn't feasible for me to list everything in a mathematical way anymore, and you should know this. It would take quite a while to type up, and this isn't a job that pays me. 

 

This isn't relevant when speaking of game design, and it is obvious that you are trying to discredit the entire argument (I placed it below) with something that isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

 

 

Start with this.

 

 

"Nova has the largest and most consistent damage output of all warframes.

Nova has more/better utility in her ultimate then other nukers by far, and better than a minority of non-nukers as well.

Nova has effectively more bulk then the average nuker

Nova is faster then every warframe besides loki

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

Nova has the largest range for her ultimate

Nova has an heavily unbalanced skill:reward ratio

Buffing all other frames up to nova will further trivialize content, and start a process of redundant buffing, or really dumb powercreep, and chances are that she will still outdamage because of the trigger for the damage on her ability.

 

 

These are all fact, and irrefutable (at the time of writing)...these are the core basis of my argument. 

 

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance."

 

 

 

You can call that whatever you want, but it is damn sure better than everything you have attempted to say so far. If you can't even refute this you really shouldn't be trying to argue because this is the focal point

 

 

Edit: also, please make use of the multiquote feature as well, it is bothering me seeing you post two or three posts back to back and it is starting to look more like spam as we go on. 

Edited January 7, 2014 by Cwierz

[Tyroki]

Can we... Oh I don't know... buff other damage frames up to the Nova's level?

As it is we want better scaling powers across the game, especially with pure damage frames.

[Zkorp]

yeah.. But it's so much fun ! at least in the lower levels but don't forget : in the higher levels Nova is only some very usefull support and a frail one, she's no more the ultimate screen wiper...

[Xhominid]

 

 

If it makes you feel better, you can call a logical conclusion illogical if it makes you feel better. Like it isn't based soley on direct comparisons and observations with a sprinkle of logic and basis in reason or mathematical relations. It doesn't have any valid points, at all actually, lets just ignore that.

 

Game balance is a complex thing, and trying to dumb it down doesn't work this time. Game theory and design was created from observation of what works, it wasn't created before games, if you want a larger understanding (I was introduced to it through playing chess and competitive team fortress 2) you need to explore it individually. It is about relations between game mechanics, comparisons, and how the game is actually played by players. It doesn't have to be based on a metric, but that doesn't mean it isn't rooted and has its roots in logic and reasoning, nor that it doesn't have a resemblance of a mathematical system. The intricate web that makes up game balance gets harder and harder to describe as more and more content is added, it simply isn't feasible for me to list everything in a mathematical way anymore, and you should know this. It would take quite a while to type up, and this isn't a job that pays me. 

 

This isn't relevant when speaking of game design, and it is obvious that you are trying to discredit the entire argument (I placed it below) with something that isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

 

Seriously...what? Don't try to act like some huge bigshot when you honestly aren't. Buffing everyone else to Nova's level isn't suddenly gonna make the game weaker unless the developers pretty much choose for it to be that. Secondly, this is mainly a PvE game so the only real tiers is what's more useful in certain missions and as others stated, Nova ONLY excels in damage and Molecular Prime's biggest thing is it's chain explosions, which only works well within dense mobs otherwise, you are better off using Anti-Matter Bomb instead. And finally, you can still buff the other's abilities as Nova only excels in just damage, you can easily make Saryn more useful with DoTs and overall poison damage AND make her an actual tank, with Ember just give her SOMETHING useful, Mag just needs more damage on her Pull and Crush, etc. None of these are gamebreaking.

 

Start with this.

 

 

"Nova has the largest and most consistent damage output of all warframes.

In exchange for pretty much being complete and utter glass if you want to take full advantage of her damage

Nova has more/better utility in her ultimate then other nukers by far, and better than a minority of non-nukers as well.

Which is only truly effective in dense mobs, otherwise Anti Matter Bomb is more useful

Nova has effectively more bulk then the average nuker

Not really. Anti Matter Bomb needs to be shot at to truly be effective and MPrime needs to have multiple people around to have the same effect as other Nuke Ults

Nova is faster then every warframe besides loki

Which she NEEDS it otherwise she would be dead instantly.

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

Couldn't you say that for every OTHER Warframe? I doubt Nova is the only one who can set herself up to use 25 energy for her Ulti...

Nova has the largest range for her ultimate

Yes and unless there's 100+ enemies roving all over, I doubt that really matters.

Nova has an heavily unbalanced skill:reward ratio

And so does every other class once you know how to use them...

Buffing all other frames up to nova will further trivialize content, and start a process of redundant buffing, or really dumb powercreep, and chances are that she will still outdamage because of the trigger for the damage on her ability.

No it wouldn't, stop stating things like they are facts. You don't NEED to buff up their damage to make them on par with Nova you know.

 

These are all fact, and irrefutable (at the time of writing)...these are the core basis of my argument. 

They are not irrefutable fact so stop stating it like it is one.

 

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance."

You keep acting like damage is the only thing that matters because if that's the case, Trinity and Loki would be completely and utterly useless now wouldn't they? Nova is a Glass Cannon Warframe that the only way she can stay alive is by nuking everything else and you have to gear her even harder in that direction to have that effect completely and utterly, which is the same for pretty much EVERY OTHER WARFRAME. You can make the case for Molecular Prime but even that is only people spamming the move at the same rate others spam World on Fire for Ember and that Net for Varuban or Well of Life for Trinity. In the end, damage is Nova's game and Molecular Prime keeps her alive in order to kill more enemies and I don't know if you hadn't noticed but there's a reason people rarely use Wormhole to get out of the way of firefights overall.

 

 

You can call that whatever you want, but it is damn sure better than everything you have attempted to say so far. If you can't even refute this you really shouldn't be trying to argue because this is the focal point

You barely refuted anything he stated by going on the same arguments everyone else had. It's been stated numerous times Nova is a damage Frame with with weak shield and health, especially if you gear her for damage. By that same level, if Nova is so overpowered, why can't she do everything every other Warframe can do? Why can't you run solos with her? Why isn't she wanted in Defense? The only places I even see Nova often is Survival and Extermination which is pretty much her expertise to begin with.

It gets ridiculous people honestly don't get the point of Nova, but keep believing that she outshines all Warframes when technically, she only outshines them in certain areas while they outshine her in others.

 

Edit: also, please make use of the multiquote feature as well, it is bothering me seeing you post two or three posts back to back and it is starting to look more like spam as we go on. 

 

Response in Italics.

[Pure]

No thx, I like spamming powers.  It's one of the things I can do in Warframe that I can't do in other games.

 

lol whens the last time you played an mmo.  mana is point less with the fast mana regen.  every game is spam now.  they really dumbed down alot of mmo's so players can faceroll keyboard.

[zzang]

Nova has no visible weakness besides not being the best frame in certain areas. I explained why in my post, maybe if you read it....

 

Side note: Calling something an opinion doesn't mean it isn't true. It just means it has to be proved to other people and you must convince them (sometimes this can be hard because they are incapable of seeing past confirmation bias, and I can assure you I have done so many a times on this topic alone)

 

It appears you are incapable of refuting the main post, and there are obvious flaws in your logic.

 

flaws in logic-

"My opinion is better than yours even though I haven't supported it!"

Thinking that nerfs are inherently bad

Using fun as a metric for game balance

Thinking that arguing is as simple as calling something an opinion and feeling good about yourself

Making personal attacks because you can't address the main argument.

Thinking that fully refuted arguments are still valid

 

look buddy half of your list is overexaggerated or false the other half is about what makes nova a good frame for damage (and thats the core problem why you hate her you cant accept that there is a good damage frame in the game)her downside is squishyness and that she is useless without damage abilities but ofcourse you ignore that significant weakness and claim your opinion is fact well i dont give a S#&$ man

 

Sidenote: you havent proven anything of your claims also from the other people in this thread i can read that you conviced noone with your nerfer style also it brings you nowhere to force your opinion of fun or your personal definition of balance onto others if this is how you behave in realife (high selffixation, low tollerance,) you should already have expirienced plenty of times that this birngs you nowhere in relation with other people.

 

i dont think nerfs are inherently bad you putting words in my mouth what im thinking to say it explicit to a kind of yours is i think YOUR nerfs/suggestions are inherently bad

 

I call your statements an opinion because they are biased on your hate/grudge/ against nova plus they are exaggerated and not irrefutable (maybe they are in your narrow minded sight of the world)

 

I think none of your arguments are valid to be honest as long as you dont present any solutions that are accetable.

Flame the forums for weeks about the same topic 24/7 brings you nowhere except that you start looking foolish from the outside perspective and lose credibility.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Renan.Ruivo
removed inappropriate content

[NeroUmbra]

8<SNIP>8

 

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

8<SNIP>8

 

 

I'm just going to address this one point.

 

The only way to get an ult to 25 energy that I am aware of is multiple rare maxed out mods.

 

This takes ALOT of time and ALOT of dedicated farming to get the right mods.  I have over 100 hours in game and still don't have any of the mods required to even start this build.

 

ALOT of things are bent at the high end of the game, nerfing something because it's bent at the high end is the wrong way to address an imbalance and will probably break it completely at the low end.

 

I really wish people would stop looking at the high end and screaming for nerfs based on that. 

[ThePresident777]

 

 

If it makes you feel better, you can call a logical conclusion illogical if it makes you feel better. Like it isn't based soley on direct comparisons and observations with a sprinkle of logic and basis in reason or mathematical relations. It doesn't have any valid points, at all actually, lets just ignore that.

 

Game balance is a complex thing, and trying to dumb it down doesn't work this time. Game theory and design was created from observation of what works, it wasn't created before games, if you want a larger understanding (I was introduced to it through playing chess and competitive team fortress 2) you need to explore it individually. It is about relations between game mechanics, comparisons, and how the game is actually played by players. It doesn't have to be based on a metric, but that doesn't mean it isn't rooted and has its roots in logic and reasoning, nor that it doesn't have a resemblance of a mathematical system. The intricate web that makes up game balance gets harder and harder to describe as more and more content is added, it simply isn't feasible for me to list everything in a mathematical way anymore, and you should know this. It would take quite a while to type up, and this isn't a job that pays me. 

 

This isn't relevant when speaking of game design, and it is obvious that you are trying to discredit the entire argument (I placed it below) with something that isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

 

 

Start with this.

 

 

"Nova has the largest and most consistent damage output of all warframes.

Nova has more/better utility in her ultimate then other nukers by far, and better than a minority of non-nukers as well.

Nova has effectively more bulk then the average nuker

Nova is faster then every warframe besides loki

Nova can cast her ultimate for 25 energy with no drawbacks making it incredibly spammable.

Nova has the largest range for her ultimate

Nova has an heavily unbalanced skill:reward ratio

Buffing all other frames up to nova will further trivialize content, and start a process of redundant buffing, or really dumb powercreep, and chances are that she will still outdamage because of the trigger for the damage on her ability.

 

 

These are all fact, and irrefutable (at the time of writing)...these are the core basis of my argument. 

 

I want you to observe the statements above and try to counter this statement-

 

Because she outshines every other comparable warframe by a huge margin without any drawbacks and has marginalized choices between nuking frames by being the best choice in a disproportionate amount of situations she is overpowered/lacking balance."

 

 

 

You can call that whatever you want, but it is damn sure better than everything you have attempted to say so far. If you can't even refute this you really shouldn't be trying to argue because this is the focal point

 

 

Edit: also, please make use of the multiquote feature as well, it is bothering me seeing you post two or three posts back to back and it is starting to look more like spam as we go on. 

 

 

You're premise is meaningless, arbitrary, biased therefore your conclusions are worthless.  Not having metrics exacerbates this and makes acceptable conclusions impossible.

Edited January 7, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Cwierz]

I'm just going to address this one point.

 

The only way to get an ult to 25 energy that I am aware of is multiple rare maxed out mods.

 

This takes ALOT of time and ALOT of dedicated farming to get the right mods.  I have over 100 hours in game and still don't have any of the mods required to even start this build.

 

ALOT of things are bent at the high end of the game, nerfing something because it's bent at the high end is the wrong way to address an imbalance and will probably break it completely at the low end.

 

I really wish people would stop looking at the high end and screaming for nerfs based on that. 

It doesn't matter what is done to aquire it. All frames should be equally viable because of the nature that they are balanced in, and having that kind of spamming capability is dumb, (president, it doesn't matter how much you like spam. Being able to cast the most powerful ability in the game aside from blessing for 25 energy drawing from a ~400 energy pool is dumb. especially when you have energy siphons.)

 

Also, this isn't screaming for nerfs. I have well thought out posts, and most people resort to grasping at straws, ignoring posts, or making personal attacks to advance their arguments. If anything, I would say the babies of the argument would be the people who start to fling insults around to say the least.

 

look buddy half of your list is overexaggerated or false the other half is about what makes nova a good frame for damage (and thats the core problem why you hate her you cant accept that there is a good damage frame in the game)her downside is squishyness and that she is useless without damage abilities but ofcourse you ignore that significant weakness and claim your opinion is fact well i dont give a S#&$ man

 

Except it isn't a weakness because it doesn't exist. You obviously haven't read all of my posts and try to jump into whatever argument you can take out of context to advance your position. I will give you a hint, part of M Prime gives her more bulk, and it has to do with CC.

 

Sidenote: you havent proven anything of your claims also from the other people in this thread i can read that you conviced noone with your nerfer style also it brings you nowhere to force your opinion of fun or your personal definition of balance onto others if this is how you behave in realife (high selffixation, low tollerance,) you should already have expirienced plenty of times that this birngs you nowhere in relation with other people.

 

Nerfing is not an inherently bad thing, and you certainly have your jimmies rustled over a fairly simple debate. I do not need to prove facts, and the opinion I drew from those facts is what we are debating. It doesn't matter how much you sling the word opinion... it doesn't change the fact that you cannot refute anything I am saying properly.

 

i dont think nerfs are inherently bad you putting words in my mouth what im thinking to say it explicit to a kind of yours is i think YOUR nerfs/suggestions are inherently bad

 

You obviously do, because you violent oppose this, without giving a thought about what I am saying because you ignore practically anything you can't take out of context or attack me about. It doesn't matter who suggests the nerf, and as far as I am aware, you haven't read my suggestion anyways.

 

I call your statements an opinion because they are biased on your hate/grudge against nova plus they are exaggerated and not irrefutable (maybe they are in your narrow minded sight of the world)

 

My statement was an opinion I drew from facts. Facts are not exaggerated. Calling my sight of the world narrow minded does nothing to refute the central point, and is just a grab at advancing your argument and making yourself seem more logical then are really acting.

 

I think none of your arguments are valid to be honest as long as you dont present any solutions that are accetable.

Flame the forums for weeks about the same topic 24/7 brings you nowhere except that you start looking foolish from the outside perspective and lose credibility.

 

Lurk more, read all posts. I have done most of what you said. If you could have refuted them you would have, but you can't. At least Xhominid is doesn't need to start a game of making personal attacks. I am done with you, because you obviously cannot lurk a thread before you post in it.

 

Also, just because you get mad at posting in the quote I have replies in the body of your quote.

 

Response in Italics.

fundemental flaws in the form of-

 

Bulk means the total number of hits or duration of being attacked something can withstand. Nova on paper deffinetly seems so, but her high mobility, the slowing from M Prime, a small amount of surviveability being added by null star, and the nature of the game scaling means she has more bulk then most other nukers and a minority of non-nukers. This is a fact, and cannot be argued as if it isn't. I am sorry to say, but you were pretty wrong on this one. It might seem like I am talking out of my &amp;#&#33;, but I can assure you that what I am saying is true. I used to have a nova, and I have leveled many other frames. I actually go down more with other frames than nova simply because of that factor.

 

CC is crowd control. It is unrelated to damage. M Prime slowing enemy movement, and fire rate is its main form of utility/crowd control. She also has a damage amp that is arguably the easiest to use in the game. Sure, killing enemies before they attack is good, but I think you are really underestimating the potential of antimatter nuclear drop when paired with a vectis especially.

 

Needing to lurk a bit more- I am a bit tired to say the least of repeating myself every post.

 

Also, Buffing other frames accomplishes nothing besides making us have the ability to fight mobs x level higher. We need a level cap near the 70-80 range and a more manageable power level. Buffing other frames will also most likely lead us down a redundant path of buffing, or something equally dumb. You can't move the baseline every time a questionable item is added to the game, it just doesn't work.

 

I can't be bothered to respond in full to it because about halfway through I stopped. There is some pretty basic stuff I don't know if you were unaware of or not, and I typically don't bother with posts like that. (sorry bout that)

 

Really, I want you to consider the implications of M Prime slowing enemies. Most players don't realize it, and I don't blame them because half of them don't know it exists in the first place.

 

My point still holds true though. I want you to actually consider if you go down as a nova more then your other frames, and if other novas go down in sustained firefights more than the other regular frames.

 

First post in a long time that addressed something and wasn't engrish.

 

You're premise is meaningless, arbitrary, biased therefore your conclusions are worthless.  Not having metrics exacerbates this.

quite obviously yes. 

 

My premise certainly isn't meaningless, and you are pretty much talking just to sound intelligent. My premises are facts. Are you saying the facts that are directly related to nova are untrue, or irrelevant?

 

They are not arbitrary at all, they are all quite related to the subject matter, I fail to see where you got that one.

 

I can be biased if I support my position believe it or not. I would challenge you to find any person in the world with no bias towards his or her own side of the argument (it won't happen). I have supported my position, and calling it an opinion, biased, or whatever have you doesn't do anything except not address the facts that the conclusion was drawn from.

 

Not having metrics? Please, I already told you. The topic of game balance is to complex to dumb down to a single metric just because you want it to, nor am I willing to at this point because it is clear you don't even understand what a metric is or you don't understand how it would relate to the subject at all.

 

yeah.. But it's so much fun ! at least in the lower levels but don't forget : in the higher levels Nova is only some very usefull support and a frail one, she's no more the ultimate screen wiper...

"At high levels" is a dumb argument. The high level part of this game is terribly unbalanced, and all the game becomes at some point is holding enemies in place while you hit them for one damage. That isn't fun to me, and I fail to see why it is for anybody else. This game needs a endgame developed that is just on the very limits of our power level. That won't matter though, if we continue to have stupid content like M Prime and Blessing, even more so if we just continually buff everything each time DE makes a mistake, or over buffs.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Renan.Ruivo
removed inappropriate content

[ThePresident777]

It doesn't matter what is done to aquire it. All frames should be equally viable because of the nature that they are balanced in, and having that kind of spamming capability is dumb, (president, it doesn't matter how much you like spam. Being able to cast the most powerful ability in the game aside from blessing for 25 energy drawing from a ~400 energy pool is dumb. especially when you have energy siphons.)

 

Also, this isn't screaming for nerfs. I have well thought out posts, and most people resort to grasping at straws, ignoring posts, or making personal attacks to advance their arguments. If anything, I would say the babies of the argument would be the people who start to fling insults around to say the least.

 

Lurk more, read all posts. I have done most of what you said. If you could have refuted them you would have, but you can't. At least Xhominid is doesn't need to start a game of making personal attacks. I am done with you, because you obviously cannot lurk a thread before you post in it.

 

Also, just because you get mad at posting in the quote I have replies in the body of your quote.

 

fundemental flaws in the form of-

 

Bulk means the total number of hits or duration of being attacked something can withstand. Nova on paper deffinetly seems so, but her high mobility, the slowing from M Prime, a small amount of surviveability being added by null star, and the nature of the game scaling means she has more bulk then most other nukers and a minority of non-nukers. This is a fact, and cannot be argued as if it isn't. I am sorry to say, but you were pretty wrong on this one. It might seem like I am talking out of my &amp;#&#33;, but I can assure you that what I am saying is true. I used to have a nova, and I have leveled many other frames. I actually go down more with other frames than nova simply because of that factor.

 

CC is crowd control. It is unrelated to damage. M Prime slowing enemy movement, and fire rate is its main form of utility/crowd control. She also has a damage amp that is arguably the easiest to use in the game. Sure, killing enemies before they attack is good, but I think you are really underestimating the potential of antimatter nuclear drop when paired with a vectis especially.

 

Needing to lurk a bit more- I am a bit tired to say the least of repeating myself every post.

 

Also, Buffing other frames accomplishes nothing besides making us have the ability to fight mobs x level higher. We need a level cap near the 70-80 range and a more manageable power level. Buffing other frames will also most likely lead us down a redundant path of buffing, or something equally dumb. You can't move the baseline every time a questionable item is added to the game, it just doesn't work.

 

I can't be bothered to respond in full to it because about halfway through I stopped. There is some pretty basic stuff I don't know if you were unaware of or not, and I typically don't bother with posts like that. (sorry bout that)

 

Really, I want you to consider the implications of M Prime slowing enemies. Most players don't realize it, and I don't blame them because half of them don't know it exists in the first place.

 

My point still holds true though. I want you to actually consider if you go down as a nova more then your other frames, and if other novas go down in sustained firefights more than the other regular frames.

 

First post in a long time that addressed something and wasn't engrish.

 

quite obviously yes. 

 

My premise certainly isn't meaningless, and you are pretty much talking out of your &amp;#&#33; trying to sound intelligent. My premises are facts. Are you saying the facts that are directly related to nova are untrue, or irrelevant?

 

They are not arbitrary at all, they are all quite related to the subject matter, I fail to see where you got that one.

 

I can be biased if I support my position believe it or not. I would challenge you to find any person in the world with no bias towards his or her own side of the argument (it won't happen). I have supported my position, and calling it an opinion, biased, or whatever have you doesn't do anything except not address the facts that the conclusion was drawn from.

 

Not having metrics? Please, I already told you. The topic of game balance is to complex to dumb down to a single metric just because you want it to, nor am I willing to at this point because it is clear you don't even understand what a metric is or you don't understand how it would relate to the subject at all.

 

"At high levels" is a dumb argument. The high level part of this game is terribly unbalanced, and all the game becomes at some point is holding enemies in place while you hit them for one damage. That isn't fun to me, and I fail to see why it is for anybody else. This game needs a endgame developed that is just on the very limits of our power level. That won't matter though, if we continue to have stupid content like M Prime and Blessing, even more so if we just continually buff everything each time DE makes a mistake, or over buffs.

 

The bold underlined statement, and many others, makes it clear, once again, that you are as biased and unreasonable as anybody else, despite all your talk of logic.  Reciting Extra Credits game design bias doesn't serve you well.  The bias is still evident.  If people enjoy spam, any amount of spam, then it's as legit a form of game play as any other, no matter how dumb you think it is.  Nobody has any reason to abandon their fun because you think it's dumb and demonize it Extra Credits style.  And, despite Warframe being free to play, it's not free to develop.  DE developes Warframe in the hopes that people will spend money.  If people want to spend money for "dumb" spam, then too bad for you, because some game company is going to capitalize on that, it's only logical.  If you want to go to their forum and advocate for no spam in a spam game, well, it's your time to waste, but, it doesn't make you the logical or reasonable one. 

 

Incidentally, if you insist on talking about numeric quantities without using numbers then, you fail to make sense and you fail to be objective.

Edited January 7, 2014 by ThePresident777

[BiancaRoughfin]

For me, those who complain of Nova are just whinners. They have to stop complaining about Nova's killing on low ranked stages and get the guts to go with one to high level defenses and survivals to see if they wouldnt wish they had one in the team.

 

I read most but not all of your post.

I have to say that Nova's ultimate is over powered, but not because it can clear rooms. It is OP because it fits all 3 roles an ability can fit.
It is a damage amp, it is a high damage output and it is a crowd control and it does them all very well.

That is what is wrong with it.

 

Nova's Ult is far from overpowered, she has been nerfed many times and the damage it does has dropped significantly since she first showed up in the game. The ult used to do 2000 damage per enemy killed to all enemies in a huge area, causing a massive chain reaction that would kill praticly every lvl 90 mob on a Orokin defense mission, now if you do 300 damage to those same mobs your being lucky. What matters on her Ult now for late game missions is mostly the damage amp and the slow down effect wich even combined with Rhino's Roar or Frost's Snowglobe some times isnt enough to save a team.

 

Her Null Star does damage enough to kill rank 1~8 mobs in one hit and is completely useless on rank 24+ missions, Anti-matter drop depends entierly on the damage you deal to it, if you manage to hit it correctly and Worm Hole is only a support skill.

[Cwierz]

For me, those who complain of Nova are just whinners. They have to stop complaining about Nova's killing on low ranked stages and get the guts to go with one to high level defenses and survivals to see if they wouldnt wish they had one in the team.

 

 

Nova's Ult is far from overpowered, she has been nerfed many times and the damage it does has dropped significantly since she first showed up in the game. The ult used to do 2000 damage per enemy killed to all enemies in a huge area, causing a massive chain reaction that would kill praticly every lvl 90 mob on a Orokin defense mission, now if you do 300 damage to those same mobs your being lucky. What matters on her Ult now for late game missions is mostly the damage amp and the slow down effect wich even combined with Rhino's Roar or Frost's Snowglobe some times isnt enough to save a team.

 

Her Null Star does damage enough to kill rank 1~8 mobs in one hit and is completely useless on rank 24+ missions, Anti-matter drop depends entierly on the damage you deal to it, if you manage to hit it correctly and Worm Hole is only a support skill.

Really? I am thinking the opposite. M Prime is the only ultimate that can kill past level 75 by itself. It does 1600, and never did 2000. Nova has never recieved nerfs. Nullstars CC enemies as well, giving you a layer of protection. Antimatter drop is amazing. I never slotted wormhole because I needed an extra slot for rush.

 

I have done many 1 hour- 2 hour long survival runs, and guess what? They aren't @(*()&#036; special. You sit under a blessing, have a nekros spam bot, and you all take your best gear. It isn't hard at all, and nova is still fully effective. My opinion hasn't changed, and it isn't just because of whatever half-assed argument you want to throw at it. 

[DaveC]

For me, those who complain of Nova are just whinners. They have to stop complaining about Nova's killing on low ranked stages and get the guts to go with one to high level defenses and survivals to see if they wouldnt wish they had one in the team.

 

 

Nova's Ult is far from overpowered, she has been nerfed many times and the damage it does has dropped significantly since she first showed up in the game. The ult used to do 2000 damage per enemy killed to all enemies in a huge area, causing a massive chain reaction that would kill praticly every lvl 90 mob on a Orokin defense mission, now if you do 300 damage to those same mobs your being lucky. What matters on her Ult now for late game missions is mostly the damage amp and the slow down effect wich even combined with Rhino's Roar or Frost's Snowglobe some times isnt enough to save a team.

Your first point.

This week we went on a Survival, with no Nova on the team, I was ranking my primary and secondary weapons as they were rank 0. I was only using my Melee weapon (which was very effective in late game). We managed this weeks high score on Pluto - Paulus. We had no problem with No nova, in fact there was a comment made that we were glad we didn't have one. We stopped at about 71m because the host had a bad gfx card (and he didn't want to risk a crash), otherwise we would have gone on further. It was also a PUG game nothing arranged, so not an optimum team.....so No we didn't miss Nova, not one little bit.

Your second point, when Nova was released we didn't have damage 2.0 and level 90 enemies were very easy to kill. The old level 90 is roughly equivalent to a level 18-20 today. A level 90 today is the equivalent of a level 450 in the old days.

Be under no illusions, a LOT of players I know...don't miss Nova at all in missions!!!

Edited January 8, 2014 by DaveC

[-CM-Syein]

Your first point.

This week we went on a Survival, with no Nova on the team, I was ranking my primary and secondary weapons as they were rank 0. I was only using my Melee weapon (which was very effective in late game). We managed this weeks high score on Pluto - Paulus. We had no problem with No nova, in fact there was a comment made that we were glad we didn't have one. We stopped at about 71m because the host had a bad gfx card (and he didn't want to risk a crash), otherwise we would have gone on further. It was also a PUG game nothing arranged, so not an optimum team.....so No we didn't miss Nova, not one little bit.

Your second point, when Nova was released we didn't have damage 2.0 and level 90 enemies were very easy to kill. The old level 90 is roughly equivalent to a level 18-20 today. A level 90 today is the equivalent of a level 450 in the old days.

Be under no illusions, a LOT of players I know...don't miss Nova at all in missions!!!

So isn't that just mean even with normal frames you go on at certain point, add nova you can go on further? If the answer is no then Its not even the problem of missing or not.

Also, if people think Nova alone is capable of making the whole run stronger, then nope, other frames capable of doing it as well, not necessary Nova. So isn't this story only prove that Nova is not as op as one think she is, because other frames capable to be on par as Nova (if not in dps, it's other area) 

[-CM-Syein]

Really? I am thinking the opposite. M Prime is the only ultimate that can kill past level 75 by itself. It does 1600, and never did 2000. Nova has never recieved nerfs. Nullstars CC enemies as well, giving you a layer of protection. Antimatter drop is amazing. I never slotted wormhole because I needed an extra slot for rush.

 

I have done many 1 hour- 2 hour long survival runs, and guess what? They aren't @(*()$ special. You sit under a blessing, have a nekros spam bot, and you all take your best gear. It isn't hard at all, and nova is still fully effective. My opinion hasn't changed, and it isn't just because of whatever half-assed argument you want to throw at it. 

Nova herself didn't received nerf, but the gameplay update style did indirectly nerf Nova. If you noticed survival runs, mobs did not go in hordes as they were before. This indirectly nerf Nova because her aoe got weaker. There are also nerf things that didn't list in last patch but player experienced it through their usual gameplay such as stealth nerf and blast aoe dps. 

You can only kill past lvl 75 if you make it explode with gun first. Null stars only good in low level mobs, or else, it just tickle the enemies. Antimatter drop required time to lead it to enemies, but it indeed amazing regardless. 

[DaveC]

So isn't that just mean even with normal frames you go on at certain point, add nova you can go on further? If the answer is no then Its not even the problem of missing or not.

Also, if people think Nova alone is capable of making the whole run stronger, then nope, other frames capable of doing it as well, not necessary Nova. So isn't this story only prove that Nova is not as op as one think she is, because other frames capable to be on par as Nova (if not in dps, it's other area)

My point about Nova is....we play Warframe to participate and shoot stuff, not sit around as 3rd wheels for ages watching content go Boom while the Nova shows us how great Molecular Prime is. The fact that Nova would make it easier to go on more than 75m in survival is pointless, because none of us want to watch stuff go Boom for 30 or 40 minutes in the hope that the Nova will want to stay. Usually, when the going gets tough, the Nova gets going and leaves.

Now we have the weekly kills board, it's going to be even worse, this will actively encourage Nova players to stay while MP is making everything go boom and leave once it isn't. This is because this maximizes their kills for time spent playing. It's also why a lot of Novas are joining and leaving once MP is ineffective now, to try and get in that top 100 list.

Now unfortunately even the simplest of changes to MP does not seem palatable to Nova players, even the fact that 1 prime can be spammed straight after another and before the previous one has worn off (unlike the majority of Ultis) seems to be fine with Nova players. One of the immediate changes DE should do..to perhaps change the behaviors of the Nova players is to assign the kills made using MP evenly across the team.

Now the above won't stop them spamming it, it will still be unfun for others, but it might quell some of the bad behaviours that will arise from them trying to get on the kills leader board each week.

Really though, MP shouldn't be able to be recast until the previous one has worn off or all the enemies affected are killed. Sure DE may want to reduce the duration of the effect if this was the case. At the moment Novas simply wormhole or rush across the map, spamming prime, until everything that's spawned is lit up....this surely cant be right.

[Davoodoo]

Nova is seriously op.

But iM NOT talking about ability to wipe whole map of 30lvl enemies with 1 shot. Most of the frames can do that.

Im talking about x2 aoe debuff it gives which simply renders any other support frame obsolete, also everytime someone dies everyone else in vicinity takes minimal dmg(now im talking about 100+ enemies, its at best 2% hp to heavy gunners and 20% to lancers) and pretty big slow.

Banshee 1145% dmg sonar isnt worth it to most of players due to a) armor/head not being armored b) requirement to actually aim at weakspot c) visibility of weakspot. Closest to being competetive actually.

Maxed rhino roar(114% increase) doesnt last as long and range on it is pretty limited.

Mag 200% dmg on single target isnt even worth mentioning until really high lvl AND being stacked with mprime on crucial target.

Nova dedicated role is not a nuker but support.

 

As for high lvl players playing with low lvl ones i would argue with OP. Its a good thing that new players have someone who they can look up to. Seeing a guy storming through level killing everything in its path with barely any effort actually makes me want to be that guy instead of quiting game.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Davoodoo

[-CM-Syein]

My point about Nova is....we play Warframe to participate and shoot stuff, not sit around as 3rd wheels for ages watching content go Boom while the Nova shows us how great Molecular Prime is. The fact that Nova would make it easier to go on more than 75m in survival is pointless, because none of us want to watch stuff go Boom for 30 or 40 minutes in the hope that the Nova will want to stay. Usually, when the going gets tough, the Nova gets going and leaves.

Now we have the weekly kills board, it's going to be even worse, this will actively encourage Nova players to stay while MP is making everything go boom and leave once it isn't. This is because this maximizes their kills for time spent playing. It's also why a lot of Novas are joining and leaving once MP is ineffective now, to try and get in that top 100 list.

Now unfortunately even the simplest of changes to MP does not seem palatable to Nova players, even the fact that 1 prime can be spammed straight after another and before the previous one has worn off (unlike the majority of Ultis) seems to be fine with Nova players. One of the immediate changes DE should do..to perhaps change the behaviors of the Nova players is to assign the kills made using MP evenly across the team.

Now the above won't stop them spamming it, it will still be unfun for others, but it might quell some of the bad behaviours that will arise from them trying to get on the kills leader board each week.

Really though, MP shouldn't be able to be recast until the previous one has worn off or all the enemies affected are killed. Sure DE may want to reduce the duration of the effect if this was the case. At the moment Novas simply wormhole or rush across the map, spamming prime, until everything that's spawned is lit up....this surely cant be right.

seem like your problem with Nova is different than "nerfer of wanting to nerf Nova" but more like a change to Nova, not nerf her. People don't want a pure dps frame, but that's Nova job. 

I already stated many times in other post that the main problem people have with Nova is not because she is op, it's because she stole kills from others. 

Also, surely doing high level survival mission up to the point of 71 min like you said, you should realized that even m-prime can't chain explode all. You have to kill mobs by gun in order to explode them 1 by 1. So basically I realized such situation already happened at 30min point. 

It all depend on how Nova mod their frame. Some willing to give up all their survival abilities to enhance their ultimate up to the point of high level chain explode. That is effort of the player, not Nova herself capable of such ability. 

And in my early post, I already indicated how DE nerf it so that mobs doesn't go in hordes. this permanently weaken Nova's abilities of chain explode (this change can be easily notice in void survival mission and corpus survival run) 

Haven't see much change yet regarding Grineer faction.