Nullifier's Drones need a "Disable Threshold"

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

said greater variety in tactical requirements, which includes repositioning and target selection

This is okay

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

ROF on your Aklex if you find it doesn't fire fast enough, or some range/attack speed on your scythe,

Have said already why this is a no

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

This makes it even faster, as instead of 4+ hits being needed (assuming a full-size shield), it would be 2. 

Need to aim, that will take time that you could have spent just shooting the bubble

So time frame to take down the bubble remains much the same

Even if it is slightly faster. Not like it makes much of a difference, you arent sweating anyway to deal with the bubble. Only major difference that affects gameplay difference is slow weapons get a way to always be able to take it out as fast weapons can

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

And when is that? How long do I have to sit in SP Endurance runs to get to that point, because I'm one-shotting them in SP Incursions, with my MR2 Vectis.

The suggestion of changing the Projection Drone HP to a standard 2-hit bar is to the detriment of sniper rifles, while it benefits higher ROF weapons, including weapons that are not modded for damage.

Whatever point it takes you vs me, it doesn't matter, the thing scaling in health does nothing but harm slow weapons for no reason other than to kill variety

So it should be removed. 2 shot or one shot, Idc, no scaling is the big picture here since the bubble itself doesn't scale.

[Silligoose]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Have said already why this is a no

Because you don't want to mod for the problem you have. Best you can do is use  the tactics you've left available to yourself then.

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Need to aim, that will take time that you could have spent just shooting the bubble

So time frame to take down the bubble remains much the same

Even if it is slightly faster. Not like it makes much of a difference, you arent sweating anyway to deal with the bubble. Only major difference that affects gameplay difference is slow weapons get a way to always be able to take it out as fast weapons can

Depends on how fast you can aim I suppose, plus then the player gets the added benefit of the nullifier bubble not being regenerated again. Way too much reward for hitting two shots on the Projector Drone as per your suggestion.

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Whatever point it takes you vs me, it doesn't matter, the thing scaling in health does nothing but harm slow weapons for no reason other than to kill variety

So it should be removed. 2 shot or one shot, Idc, no scaling is the big picture here since the bubble itself doesn't scale.

The point I'm making is your suggestion weakens high damage sniper rifles vs nullifiers for all content that doesn't go into endurance runs, while at the same time buffing high ROF weapons vs Nullifiers. That works in opposition for the introduction of the Projector Drones in the first place and all this simply because you have a loadout you don't want to change.

If anything, DE should start letting the bubbles scale then instead of making it easier.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Because you don't want to mod for the problem you have.

Its because i dont want to have my options limited, rather have them further expanded

Forcing certain mods creates the same issue as forcing certain weapons.

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

 the player gets the added benefit of the nullifier bubble not being regenerated again.

Can be arranged by making it temporarily disabled when shot out the sky, it would go on the nullifiers back and can be destroyed from there

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

The point I'm making is

Your points clear enough, that's why I said

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Whatever point it takes you vs me, it doesn't matter, the thing scaling in health does nothing but harm slow weapons for no reason other than to kill variety

So it should be removed. 2 shot or one shot, Idc, no scaling is the big picture here since the bubble itself doesn't scale

____

Give them a fixed amount of health of say 50-100k (close to 1 shot) or whatever Irdc, no scaling = 👍. 

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

DE should start letting the bubbles scale then instead of making it easier.

Edit: Wait no I see what you mean. Idk, I wouldn't be entirely against it. It'd be up to with other players think, I'm unsure if many people would want them to scale in health as opposed to what they are right now. They really can screw up the game for you.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

anything, DE should start letting the bubbles scale then instead of making it easier.

Wait no I see what you mean. Idk, I wouldn't be entirely against it. It'd be up to with other players think, I'm unsure if many people would want them to scale in health as opposed to what they are right now. They really can screw up the game for you.

[Silligoose]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Its because i dont want to have my options limited, rather have them further expanded

Forcing certain mods creates the same issue as forcing certain weapons.

There's a difference between forcing something and having the choice to use something even though it is less viable. Having Demolishers be invulnerable to all sorts of cc forces one to use only specific forms of cc. Having the option to use a faster firing rate on the Aklex for the sake of getting a bubble down faster is optional, since you don't need it, but it means you'll take a little longer to drop the shield if you choose not to mod for a faster rate of fire.

44 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Can be arranged by making it temporarily disabled when shot out the sky, it would go on the nullifiers back and can be destroyed from there

That takes one of the benefits away from aiming properly and taking the Projector Drone out. 

45 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Give them a fixed amount of health of say 50-100k (close to 1 shot) or whatever Irdc, no scaling = 👍. 

Personally I like scaling, but to each his own.

46 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Edit: Wait no I see what you mean. Idk, I wouldn't be entirely against it. It'd be up to with other players think, I'm unsure if many people would want them to scale in health as opposed to what they are right now. They really can screw up the game for you.

Yeah there are players who really dislike Nullifiers. I do understand why, as there are frames that rely heavily on their abilities to stay alive, or frames that take a while to scale some abilities (eg Gara)... one unfortunate wall clip and poof all gone, which is a problem in itself.

Honestly the more I think about it, the more it feels like assets such as Nullifier bubbles and the Projector Drone can be used to make weapons that are generally seen as less desirable, such as sniper rifles, more desirable, by making the Projector Drone more desirable to hit directly, as opposed to the shield, which does drop incredibly fast when using bullet hoses. Scaling the bubble's health more could help with that.

That being said, things like the bubbles clipping through walls probably needs some attention first. I think it's been addressed somewhat at some stage, but I believe one can still encounter a clip here and there.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

There's a difference between forcing something and having the choice to use something even though it is less viable. Having Demolishers be invulnerable to all sorts of cc forces one to use only specific forms of cc. Having the option to use a faster firing rate on the Aklex for the sake of getting a bubble down faster is optional, since you don't need it, but it means you'll take a little longer to drop the shield if you choose not to mod for a faster rate of fire

I suppose you are right

Still, drones should be a way for slow rof weapons to keep up with high rof weapons. Seems it's was sole purpose of their existence anyway since high rof weapons seriously don't need to consider them whatsoever.

May as well remove them if all that's wanted for us to do is shoot the bubble and then destroy the machine on his back. Instead of shooting the drone

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Personally I like scaling,

I like it too where it makes sense. Having a non scaling bubble that's very easy to hit,  with a skill shot drone that does scale and is hard to hit makes 0 sense, unless you want the drone to be ignored. Even with the fact that it permanently destroys the bubble, it is still not really a benefit when you can more easily destroy the bubble first and then shoot the Drone on his back. It's just floating up there for no reason after a certain point 

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Yeah there are players who really dislike Nullifiers. I do understand why, as there are frames that rely heavily on their abilities to stay alive, or frames that take a while to scale some abilities (eg Gara)... one unfortunate wall clip and poof all gone, which is a problem in itself.

Honestly the more I think about it, the more it feels like assets such as Nullifier bubbles and the Projector Drone can be used to make weapons that are generally seen as less desirable, such as sniper rifles, more desirable, by making the Projector Drone more desirable to hit directly, as opposed to the shield, which does drop incredibly fast when using bullet hoses. Scaling the bubble's health more could help with that.

That being said, things like the bubbles clipping through walls probably needs some attention first. I think it's been addressed somewhat at some stage, but I believe one can still encounter a clip here and there.

Yes this I can settle for. Speaking on behalf of myself here tho

I'm also mostly okay with wall clipping. The bubble should still shrink when you shoot it just not completely disappear until its health is gone. As long as it can be shrunk I'd be fine with it. 

Increase the rate at which the bubble shrinks too would be really nice for slow rof

[Lutesque]

@Silligoose

I had a whole bunch of Counter Points but it seems like you're not interested in actually Fixing These Enemies.... So that we aren't punished for using Slower Weapons... 

Because That's What This Game Needs.... More People using Ignis Wraiths and Kuva Nukor's....

https://www.warframe.com/2021stats

😐

[Silligoose]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I suppose you are right

Still, drones should be a way for slow rof weapons to keep up with high rof weapons. Seems it's was sole purpose of their existence anyway since high rof weapons seriously don't need to consider them whatsoever.

May as well remove them if all that's wanted for us to do is shoot the bubble and then destroy the machine on his back. Instead of shooting the drone

Agreed. The drone's main purpose seems to have been a mechanic for slower ROF to keep up, but I would argue that as fast as rapid fire weapons are at dealing with bubbles, snipers are the best - one shot, bubble gone, permanently, regardless of range. That's pretty nice. Anecdotally, AoE radial damage also seems to destroy bubbles/drones incredibly fast, but that's AoE for ya :/

The movement just makes it a bit spicy :)

5 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I like it too where it makes sense. Having a non scaling bubble that's very easy to hit,  with a skill shot drone that does scale and is hard to hit makes 0 sense, unless you want the drone to be ignored. Even with the fact that it permanently destroys the bubble, it is still not really a benefit when you can more easily destroy the bubble first and then shoot the Drone on his back. It's just floating up there for no reason after a certain point 

I'd wager what we are seeing is powercreep making its presence known yet again. The bubble has some interesting mechanics, in that (despite what our screens may show), the max damage it can take in a frame is 400, which equates to 24% size reduction according to the Wiki. In theory this should combat powercreep, but as our power increased, we unlocked the ability to get extremely fast fire rates paired with bullets that easily reach 400 damage each, so nullifier bubbles drop incredibly fast.

In all honesty, I believe DE did not really consider or care all that much how certain assets scale in high level content or SP.

6 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Yes this I can settle for. Speaking on behalf of myself here tho

I'm also mostly okay with wall clipping. The bubble should still shrink when you shoot it just not completely disappear until its health is gone. As long as it can be shrunk I'd be fine with it. 

Increase the rate at which the bubble shrinks too would be really nice for slow rof

We all enjoy different things. Time will tell what DE does, if anything.

[Silligoose]

15 hours ago, Lutesque said:

@Silligoose

I had a whole bunch of Counter Points but it seems like you're not interested in actually Fixing These Enemies.... So that we aren't punished for using Slower Weapons... 

Because That's What This Game Needs.... More People using Ignis Wraiths and Kuva Nukor's....

https://www.warframe.com/2021stats

😐

I'd be very happy to see these enemies become the type of enemies that encourage slowerr ROF single target weapons. I just don't think that making the Projector Drone a 2-hit target is the way to go, because I feel that change would be to the benefit of higher ROF weapons and AoE tbh, whilst being to the detriment of slower ROF weapons and I base this on the fact that I can one-shot the Projector Drones with a my beloved Vectis.

Instead, I believe it would be better for the bubbles themselves to scale higher, making hitting the Projector Drone more valuable in comparison, while also decreasing the effectiveness of high ROF weapons against the bubbles.

This thread is all about Nullifier bubbles, so go for it.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

I'd be very happy to see these enemies become the type of enemies that encourage slowerr ROF single target weapons. I just don't think that making the Projector Drone a 2-hit target is the way to go, because I feel that change would be to the benefit of higher ROF weapons and AoE tbh, whilst being to the detriment of slower ROF weapons and I base this on the fact that I can one-shot the Projector Drones with a my beloved Vectis.

While the 2 shot idea could slightly benefit high rof weapons, its much better than making slow rof weapons become utterly useless against the nullifier enemy, or severely disadvantaged. With the 2 shot idea, slow rof will always have a more fair way to destroy the bubble, without having you mess up your loadout. 

________

Still i have the question, Pretending as though your other idea is not an option for the moment, are you against giving the drone a fixed amount of health? 

[Famecans]

I have a few thoughts on single target weapons:

• Currently AoE weapons prevent the space ninja theme so I can't use single target weapons in public squads.

I have a few thoughts on nullifiers:

• poorly designed enemies that completely destroy builds based on bubble-type temporal energy abilities (frost;limbo); i would love nullifier arcana to nullify these bubbles or refund energy on nullified abilities.
• now the bubbles, well, that huge big blue bubble. it's visually horrible, completely spoils visibility and strategies with single target weapons because if I have a heavy unit next to nullifier the bubble takes all my focus of any point.

[Silligoose]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

While the 2 shot idea could slightly benefit high rof weapons, its much better than making slow rof weapons become utterly useless against the nullifier enemy, or severely disadvantaged. With the 2 shot idea, slow rof will always have a more fair way to destroy the bubble, without having you mess up your loadout. 

________

Still i have the question, Pretending as though your other idea is not an option for the moment, are you against giving the drone a fixed amount of health? 

For me it is not just the fact that it benefits the weapon types that already shines against nullifier bubbles, but it indirectly nerfs high damage, slow ROF single-target weapons vs Nullifiers, since a potential one-shot becomes a two-shot.

I say this because right now I can jump into an SP mission and one-shot the drones and I am happy that being accurate and choosing a weapon that can do that, gives me the potential to do so.

A change like this would buff the meta and nerf the non-meta, which seems a step in the wrong direction and for that reason I prefer scaling.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

For me it is not just the fact that it benefits the weapon types that already shines against nullifier bubbles, but it indirectly nerfs high damage, slow ROF single-target weapons vs Nullifiers, since a potential one-shot becomes a two-shot.

I say this because right now I can jump into an SP mission and one-shot the drones and I am happy that being accurate and choosing a weapon that can do that, gives me the potential to do so.

A change like this would buff the meta and nerf the non-meta, which seems a step in the wrong direction and for that reason I prefer scaling.

Will just have to agree to disagree on which issue is more of a problem cause we're doing nothing but saying the same thing, going in circles at this point.

And I'll just take it as you'd support high fixed health as opposed to 2 shots then, that allows most slow rof or burst weapons to 1 shot the drone while others cant. Considering a scaling bubble might not be as well recieved and all, is the only other alternative that fits what you're describing as optimal.

Good talk

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

Will just have to agree to disagree on which issue is more of a problem cause we're doing nothing but saying the same thing, going in circles at this point.

And I'll just take it as you'd support high fixed health as opposed to 2 shots then, that allows most slow rof or burst weapons to 1 shot the drone while others cant. Considering a scaling bubble might not be as well recieved and all, is the only other alternative that fits what you're describing as optimal.

Good talk

I support scaling, not a high fixed health: I may be able to one-shot the Projector Drone at the new high fixed health when using my lategame sniper setup, but players who are not as far in progression as I am, or who are not facing the level of enemies I am, may not be able to. One has to consider them as well. So what, we lower the drone HP so they can one-shot? That means taking away the benefit the sniper rifle had again. That's why I support scaling: Lower level Nullifiers should have lower HP Projector Drones and vice versa, in my opinion.

Same goes for the bubble. I'd prefer the bubble scale in allowable damage and damage requirement for size decrease. There may be those who would like scaling of the bubble's health, such as players who think it is strange that their 2-mod Aklex Prime takes 6 shots to drop the shield of lvl 170 Nullifier, but when fully modded for endgame, it still takes 6 shots to down the bubble of a lvl 170, There may be some that dislike scaling, because they want lvl 170 content to feel like lvl 40 content anyway.

Agree to disagree it is. Thanks for the chat Tenno :)

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

One has to consider them as well.

I mean fixed health at the mission level, similar to defense objectives that only have their health increased depending on the mission, and have it remain the same rest of the game.

[Silligoose]

15 minutes ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I mean fixed health at the mission level, similar to defense objectives that only have their health increased depending on the mission, and have it remain the same rest of the game.

Doesn't that simply nerf one of the more threatening obstacles on an endurance run, by preventing it from scaling, despite enemies getting tougher? Granted, the bubble doesn't scale and can be disabled pretty easily, but at least it can come back and screw with us if we leave the Nullifier Crewman alive too long after depleting the shield. I'm still on the side of scaling. That being said, there are those who who claim the Projector Drone scales to a greater extent than the Nullifier Crewman and if that is the case, I can understand a request for decreasing the scaling, depending on how high it eventually scales.

Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

50 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Doesn't that simply nerf

"It won't grow back"

Well give it a fixed damage threshold that temporarily disables the drone. The drones health still scales but if you deal a certain amount of damage to it, it is garaunteed to be disabled for a few seconds. 

For example, say you have a drone with 500k health. And let's say the the damage threshold is 10k to temporarily disable the drone.

Your weapon deals 200k damage to it, causing the drone to be disabled since you just passed it 10k damage threshold limit (meaning no bubble). Its on the nullifiers back now and has 300k health left. After a few seconds, it wakes back up and grows the bubble again.

Now you get angry, another 200k shot would just disable the drone again and leave it with 100k health meaning it will come back online again in a few seconds, and youd have to shoot it 1 more time to finally destroy it, and thats just too many bullets to you. So you use a rhino roar and deal 400k damage to it. The drone is destroyed for good.

Will this suffice?

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

45 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Doesn't that simply nerf one of the more threatening obstacles on an endurance run, by preventing it from scaling, despite enemies getting tougher? Granted, the bubble doesn't scale and can be disabled pretty easily, but at least it can come back and screw with us if we leave the Nullifier Crewman alive too long after depleting the shield. I'm still on the side of scaling. That being said, there are those who who claim the Projector Drone scales to a greater extent than the Nullifier Crewman and if that is the case, I can understand a request for decreasing the scaling, depending on how high it eventually scales.

Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Editted

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

"It won't grow back"

Well give it a fixed damage threshold that temporarily disables the drone. The drones health still scales but if you deal a certain amount of damage to it, it is garaunteed to be disabled for a few seconds. 

For example, say you have a drone with 500k health. And let's say the the damage threshold is 10k to temporarily disable the drone.

Your weapon deals 200k damage to it, causing the drone to be disabled since you just passed it 10k damage threshold limit (meaning no bubble). Its on the nullifiers back now and has 300k health left. After a few seconds, it wakes back up and grows the bubble again.

Now you get angry, another 200k shot would just disable the drone again and leave it with 100k health meaning it will come back online again in a few seconds, and youd have to shoot it 1 more time to finally destroy it, and thats just too many bullets to you. So you use a rhino roar and deal 400k damage to it. The drone is destroyed for good.

Will this suffice?

That's pretty creative. Obviously you made a typo and meant to type 100k threshold, but still, that's pretty good. Being snipers we'd rarely care about the growing back part since the Nullifier Crewman dies in the next headshot if we have our various stacks (unless "lag" causes us to miss of course 😉).

I am kidding about the typo part, as I realize the number is simply a placeholder, but if the threshold is pretty high, maybe even scaling as a % off the drone's HP, the initial thoughts I have is it could be a good change that makes slower, accurate, hard hitting weapons more attractive for fighting this type of enemy and keeps them viable even as content scales, despite the bubble not scaling.

I like your idea. Nice work Tenno!

[Shatter_The_Sun]

Imma have to disagree with this simply because of how strong AoE weapons are. Last thing we need is to make them even better. We have people, including myself, advocating for ways to nerf AoE weapons to allow more use for single target weapons. Nullifiers are a good standard to start at and grow from when it comes to difficulty and how to approach enemies imo.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, Shatter_The_Sun said:

Imma have to disagree with this simply because of how strong AoE weapons are. Last thing we need is to make them even better. We have people, including myself, advocating for ways to nerf AoE weapons to allow more use for single target weapons. Nullifiers are a good standard to start at and grow from when it comes to difficulty and how to approach enemies imo.

Altered the idea now 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Obviously you made a typo and meant to type 100k

I'm bout to strangle you 🙃

Lol glad we've come to an agreement here, gonna change the post cause I feel I'd have a better time with it too

[Lutesque]

LoL ..this thread is being carried by the same two people...😝

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2022-02-03 at 2:31 PM, Lutesque said:

LoL ..this thread is being carried by the same two people...😝

Eh I see other people joining in, and I see people giving likes to the idea

People have different things to say, some say little and unnecessary things, some say more and constructive things.

On 2022-02-01 at 6:47 PM, Famecans said:

I have a few thoughts on single target weapons:

• Currently AoE weapons prevent the space ninja theme so I can't use single target weapons in public squads.

Yea AoE weapons I believe were introduced incorrectly. They needed to be an item that you can use sometimes otherwise they become wayyyy too overpowered, especially in lower level content. That's why most games only give you limited use for explosives.

I made a suggestion in another post to make them a 3rd ranged weapon that you can bring on any mission. These explosive weapons would be buffed in every way except in ammo capacity and ammo acquisition, that would be nerfed HEAVILY, but; atleast there would be more reason to bring other weapons AND Have your explosive weapons at the same time. I think the idea unfortunately only got well recieved by just a few people because a lot players have grown too attached to their explosive weapons. So weakening the usage of them makes them upset 

Maybe there needs to be more enemies with explosive resistance as a Stat? So strong that you need to switch to another weapon to deal with them?