Make Ash Have Free Aim Teleporting (Like Dishonored's Blink)

[Tevye]

This topic isn't about any of those frames though, it's about Ash and his teleport skill. Saying ash doesn't need attention as much is all well and good, but it's not the point of the thread. No one in the thread is saying omg fix it now, ignore everything else.

[Wiegraf]

This would be exploited hard. Ash already has a pretty good radius on his Teleport, but making it free range would just lead to Ashes skipping obstacles and speed-porting passed everything.

 

 

How would this be exploitable? Wormhole already does that. Yeah wormhole cost more than teleport, but mulitple people can use wormhole where as teleport is one use only.

 

Pretty much summed up here. Nova already does make any form of parkour requirement redundant with her wormhole which, might I add, allows a FULL TEAM to simply phase through. As for Ash having a free aim teleport, he'd be the only one to benefit from it.

[DarkThiefDevil]

Simply make teleport cost around 50 energy, but it behaves exactly like wormhole but works only for one person. Even at that extra cost, the tactical advantages you could get from it is pretty good, but only a skilled player would use it appropriately. It wouldnt make it over powered, because at the end of the day it acts exactly as wormhole does...

[TunaMayo]

This would be awesome. I always think that using teleport would be a useful mobility tool, but in reality it's just not.

It's just too clunky to use in the heat of battle or as a mobility tool.

Adding free aim would sort this out.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I think it'd be interesting if Teleport had a much shorter range and didn't have a target requirement. Make it so that if the player presses the melee key during his flip animation, he does a small AOE melee sweep that stuns enemies within reach, PERHAPS for a bit extra energy. Like, 10. Lastly, have enemies have a 1 second aggro on Ash's last non-teleported location.

What does this accomplish? Well...

1. Makes teleport an attractive ability to use in the middle of a firefight, and adds a very good capability for team synergy. Sure, his normal teleport stuns one enemy... but that's one enemy. Out of how many that are ususally on screen? From experience, even coordinated teams have a hard time picking out single targets amidst hordes of Grineer, Corpus, or Infested, unless it's the only heavy in the room.

2. It gives Ash an actual use for Teleport. Seriously. Outside of an emergency rush to a Cryopod or Computer System, distance closed with Teleport would be better closed more slowly while spitting out lots of gunfire. Teleport is more likely to put you in a danger rather than an advantageous position. With the proposed changes, Ash could actually fill the role of a melee bruiser who goes in quickly before escaping to safety after disrupting enemy mobs.

 

What Jukeboxx said. Giving Ash another AoE stun is just too much. The best suggestion I have heard is the one about giving teleport more leeway in its aiming. That is really the only thing that needs to be done. It doesn't need to be free-aim, it doesn't need an AoE stun, it doesn't need any of that. This aiming fix could be added to the other frames that have this issue.

Another thing some people should consider: Are you 100% sure the 'invalid target' notice you're getting isn't caused by the enemy being outside your targeting range, or that you don't just have bad aim? I'm not saying this is the issue, but sometimes the most stupid question is the one that never get's asked. Sort of like all those people who call customer service about a broken appliance just to find out it wasn't plugged in.

[Cwierz]

So you guys are worried about the prosprect of MOBILITY BEING ABUSED WHEN ZORENCOPTER IS AROUND?

ffs, this is one of the few things that would carve out a niche for ash. Not everything is based around defense and survival, there are other modes too, so having frames that fill niches in those modes is just as good as ones who are good teamwork frames for defense and survival. What you guys are saying is meaningless, because the only thing this does differently that anything else in the game is fast downward mobility and panic mobility in a firefight. Zoren Copter, slash Dash, super Jump, max rush, quick rest, marathon, continuity, strech, pendragon excalibur would theoretically be BETTER than just a free aim teleport by such a huge margin is isn't even funny. This is what should become the next great thing for ash, it would make him have 4 skills I would want to slot instead of three. 

Having played dishonored I can vouch for the stealth ingenuity that couples with it, I can vouch for the layer of combat depth. It is simply to good of an idea to pass up.

[ra9una]

I always love teleport, cause I thought it was like this.... then I played ash. Anyway, it would be too good, it would have to be nerfect into the ground for people not to complain about it. That said, let them complain, I'm in.

[NICKTHECHAMP11]

This would be exploited hard. Ash already has a pretty good radius on his Teleport, but making it free range would just lead to Ashes skipping obstacles and speed-porting passed everything.

My problem is that you must aim exactly on target to teleport. If they would just make it hitscan instead of actually having to move the cursor on target, that would be much better IMO.

[SquirmyBurrito]

So you guys are worried about the prosprect of MOBILITY BEING ABUSED WHEN ZORENCOPTER IS AROUND?

ffs, this is one of the few things that would carve out a niche for ash. Not everything is based around defense and survival, there are other modes too, so having frames that fill niches in those modes is just as good as ones who are good teamwork frames for defense and survival. What you guys are saying is meaningless, because the only thing this does differently that anything else in the game is fast downward mobility and panic mobility in a firefight. Zoren Copter, slash Dash, super Jump, max rush, quick rest, marathon, continuity, strech, pendragon excalibur would theoretically be BETTER than just a free aim teleport by such a huge margin is isn't even funny. This is what should become the next great thing for ash, it would make him have 4 skills I would want to slot instead of three. 

Having played dishonored I can vouch for the stealth ingenuity that couples with it, I can vouch for the layer of combat depth. It is simply to good of an idea to pass up.

 

Carve out a niche? You mean other than the frame with one of (if not the) highest damage ults in the game? As well as the frame with one of the more powerful (and spammable) first skills? As well as having invisibility? He doesn't need a blink-esque ability nor another AoE stun. I have played dishonored as well, blink took out most of the complexity that the puzzles might have had. I just blinked through the entire game. I had to do a second 'almost-no blink' playthrough just to experience the difficulty the game attempted to throw at you. And the builds you could do with this free-aim teleport would put it far above zorencoptering.

As I said, the only thing Ash's teleport (and other aim-dependent abilities need is a tweak to give more leeway in aiming. That's it.

Edited November 12, 2013 by SquirmyBurrito

[AXCrusnik]

Does it? I haven't slotted teleport in... well, ever. If it stuns then I see no reason for people to be calling for another buff. 

 

Ash's teleport already briefly stuns the enemy.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Teleport + Smoke Screen. Adding an AOE stun to Teleport would make Ash too OP, two AOE stuns one of which he goes invisible and causes the enemies to become unalerted, while the other allows him to safely travel 50 meters.. Lol that's not asking for too much.

 

I would agree that his Teleport needs a change, if he didn't have 3 other skills to give him a good and complete skill set. Ash is one of the last Frames that need to be adjusted.

 

Banshee would probably be the next Frame that needs a good skill adjustment. Of her skill set, Sonar is the one good skill (+5x damage on certain spots). Her 4 is a small AOE that only really affects infested and melee grineer, leaving her a sitting duck for every other enemy. There's now 100% silence with weapon mods or weapons that are completely silent themselves, rendering her Silence (3) useless. Her 1 is a low cost knock back that can be spammed with very minimal damage (50 non armor-ignore IIRC).

 

Also possibly Saryn, Nyx, or Volt.

 

Teleport would still be functionally different from Smokescreen. Smokescreen is a get-out-of-jail-free card for finding yourself surrounded by enemies that can sometimes come in handy for canceling out knockdowns before they happen. It adds a bit of melee power, sure, but that's it. I'm not asking for a 50m range aoe stun, either. Under the proposed changes it would be of a much shorter range, more functional in correcting a mistimed jump or an energy-fueled dodge maneuver than something of actual mobility. The point of introducing the stun as an AOE rather than a single target function was also more for the purpose of introducing team utility, since people seem to think that's a must-have for Ash.

 

I'm fine with the other suggestions of introducing a more lenient targeting system or simply removing its target requirement in exchange for a range decrease, but your claim that "Teleport is fine because Ash's other three abilities make up for it" is ridiculously flawed. Each and every Warframe has four abilities, not three. Following your logic, Fireball, Bullet Attractor, Contagion, Bounce, Shock, Overload, Ice Wave, Psychic Bolts, and Super Jump should all be left as is because each Warframe has abilities that compensate for shortcomings. No. The Warframes and their abilities all need adjustments so that players have a reason to use each ability. As it is now, Teleport does nearly nothing that is useful. That's unacceptable.

Lastly, I agree that Ash needs less of a look than some other Warframes right now, but that is largely irrelevant. This is a thread about Ash. Hopefully Teleport will become a bit more useful when Armor/Damage 2.0 comes out and melee hopefully becomes a bit less disadvantaged than it is now.

[JukeBoxx831]

So you guys are worried about the prosprect of MOBILITY BEING ABUSED WHEN ZORENCOPTER IS AROUND?

ffs, this is one of the few things that would carve out a niche for ash. Not everything is based around defense and survival, there are other modes too, so having frames that fill niches in those modes is just as good as ones who are good teamwork frames for defense and survival.

 

I wasn't one of the people who complained about mobility abuse :3 sooo no reply to that lol.

 

As for "one of the few things that would carve out a niche for Ash, I guess Stealth invisibility and increase damage along with an armor ignore spam on 1 and Stealth ninja killing 4 that deals 2000+ damage isn't a niche. Yeah Stealth totally isn't a niche, and it's especially not one that Ash fits in.

 

Also, I agree, not everything is about Defense or Survival, but the problem is.. He plays perfectly well in all of those non-team based mission types due to his niche as a stealth assassin role. Which is why I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

 

What you guys are saying is meaningless, because the only thing this does differently that anything else in the game is fast downward mobility and panic mobility in a firefight.

 

Lol @ that ^^ idk if you're serious or not.. But Smoke Screen is an AOE stun, that also puts you into invisibility, while also making them unalerted (walk around the immediate area) to follow up with a Heavy Melee charged attack that gets 100% damage boost lol. Instead of using Smoke Screen you can also use Bladestorm which deals 2000+ damage to 13-15 different targets all 20 meters around your initial target (which can be 30 meters away) lol. Bladestorm also makes it where you CANNOT BE HIT which also means you CANNOT TAKE DAMAGE, thus your shields regenerate while it is being used.

 

Zoren Copter, slash Dash, super Jump, max rush, quick rest, marathon, continuity, strech, pendragon excalibur would theoretically be BETTER than just a free aim teleport by such a huge margin is isn't even funny. This is what should become the next great thing for ash, it would make him have 4 skills I would want to slot instead of three. 

Having played dishonored I can vouch for the stealth ingenuity that couples with it, I can vouch for the layer of combat depth. It is simply to good of an idea to pass up.

 

Yes, those are all great escape mechanisms, just like Ash's Smoke Screen, Loki's Decoy, Invisibility, Switch Teleport, Rhino's Charge, Stomp, Mag's Pull, Nekros Terrify, Nyx Chaos, Saryn's Molt, Vauban's Bounce, Bastille, Vortex.

 

I do believe Ash and Loki's Teleports need a new mechanic to them (closest target to your reticle), but free aim is asking for far too much, especially since the distance is 50 meters lol.

[JukeBoxx831]

Teleport would still be functionally different from Smokescreen. Smokescreen is a get-out-of-jail-free card for finding yourself surrounded by enemies that can sometimes come in handy for canceling out knockdowns before they happen. It adds a bit of melee power, sure, but that's it. I'm not asking for a 50m range aoe stun, either. Under the proposed changes it would be of a much shorter range, more functional in correcting a mistimed jump or an energy-fueled dodge maneuver than something of actual mobility. The point of introducing the stun as an AOE rather than a single target function was also more for the purpose of introducing team utility, since people seem to think that's a must-have for Ash.

 

So Smoke Screen turning you invisible and giving you free movement since the enemies are no longer actively attacking where you disappeared (due to them shortly being stunned) while also giving a 50% boost to normal attacks and 100% boost to charged attacks, "that's it"? Lol that's not enough? Smoke Screen's stun AOE doesn't count for you and other people's idea of "team play"? Making easy targets of enemies surrounding you :\ I guess..

 

I'm fine with the other suggestions of introducing a more lenient targeting system or simply removing its target requirement in exchange for a range decrease, but your claim that "Teleport is fine because Ash's other three abilities make up for it" is ridiculously flawed. Each and every Warframe has four abilities, not three. Following your logic, Fireball, Bullet Attractor, Contagion, Bounce, Shock, Overload, Ice Wave, Psychic Bolts, and Super Jump should all be left as is because each Warframe has abilities that compensate for shortcomings. No. The Warframes and their abilities all need adjustments so that players have a reason to use each ability. As it is now, Teleport does nearly nothing that is useful. That's unacceptable.

 

Lastly, I agree that Ash needs less of a look than some other Warframes right now, but that is largely irrelevant. This is a thread about Ash. Hopefully Teleport will become a bit more useful when Armor/Damage 2.0 comes out and melee hopefully becomes a bit less disadvantaged than it is now.

 

I wasn't intending to claim Ash is fine because he has 3 workable abilities, as you said and read and repeated "Lastly, I agree that Ash needs less of a look than some other Warframes right now" because he has more working skills than most other Warframes. THAT was my statement I intended to make.

 

So in case you didn't understand what I meant due to the way I put it or you read it:

I believe there are other Warframes that need more attention than Ash because they LACK 3 skills worth using (overly exaggerated lol but to get my point across more thoroughly) while he has 3 GOOD skills and 1 that's arguably useful or useless.

Edited November 13, 2013 by JukeBoxx831

[JukeBoxx831]

Personally I find Teleport to work well as intended. When I play Ash I use it to teleport to team members far ahead of (or far behind) myself, to Cryopods or Life Support, and occasionally enemies. As long as the enemies are alive and within 30 meters or so you can teleport without aiming. Once the enemies get around 40+ meters you need to aim to get to said target but I don't find this to be bothersome as the original poster had claimed.

 

Which is why, in my opinion, Teleport doesn't need to be drastically changed. It could use an easier targeting system (closest enemy to your reticle) but it's far from needing a free aim system.

Edited November 13, 2013 by JukeBoxx831

[Cwierz]

Carve out a niche? You mean other than the frame with one of (if not the) highest damage ults in the game? As well as the frame with one of the more powerful (and spammable) first skills? As well as having invisibility? He doesn't need a blink-esque ability nor another AoE stun. I have played dishonored as well, blink took out most of the complexity that the puzzles might have had. I just blinked through the entire game. I had to do a second 'almost-no blink' playthrough just to experience the difficulty the game attempted to throw at you. And the builds you could do with this free-aim teleport would put it far above zorencoptering.

As I said, the only thing Ash's teleport (and other aim-dependent abilities need is a tweak to give more leeway in aiming. That's it.

He is overshadowed by the other frames in the game in all categories, stealth is largely irrelevant as well because the mechanics for it haven't even been decided. Mag, Sayrn, Nova, Excalibur, all laugh at shuriken, which does piss poor against any enemy with some decent shields, and the power of certain skills should not determine the power of others. Loki has longer invisibility which is insanely long with corrupted mods, and he is better at CC then ash's smokescreen. Bladestorm? Are you @(*()$ kidding. That takes forever, and you can kill all the mobs that WOULD kill with your average modded gun in the same amount of time while going invisible getting that "op cc that you reference".

Also, other people suggestions are not mine, so don't try to get me to defend them because I will not. 

Teleport should be blink-esque, have a short range, and a timer of X seconds. 

Everyone here is arguing with invalid points, who cares if frost's snow globe or nyx's chaos good? why are other powers not allowed to work/excel at what they SHOULD DO just because of others, that is some #*($%%@ up logic you have. 

Dishonored didn't have puzzles, if you played on hard with only blink you would see that it wasn't a "win button". In warframe you have no save loads, so no going back if you F*** up either. Comparing the usefulness between the two in their respective games is moot, I was using the example to show how it could be used to add depth, and give ash and ACTUAL niche that isn't supremely #*($%%@ up by every other warframe doing his jobs better. 

Besides, why does he HAVE to teleport to a person or thing, it makes no sense logically, and just makes the ability useless as a whole because all of that time you spend thinking about where to teleport could just be used to hit 2 and be done with it. 

Protip: The range of this could be maxed and balanced. Because thinking that it should have 50 meters base isn't $&*&*#(%& at all, and putting misconceptions that you assumed in your post isn't either.

 

All of the contradictions in these posts are making me rage so bad, you say it will take away skill and just have people exploit? So why don't we just make aiming easier because that fixes the no skill issue, and zorencoptering will always be the dominant form of movement without its removal, if a timer was placed on teleport then you would barely see it. You can zoren copter 30 meters easy in less than 2 seconds. If it had a 5 second timer you are already falling behind. Some people are so opposed to this because adding mobility to a game where you already have ridiculous mobility in the first place so it so far above the AI's mobility is overpowered. 

 

The teleport we have now is the equivalent of only being able jump in certain places in a game like mirrors edge. It would have so much potential but people would go crazy about it because it would add more mobility, to a game based around mobility. 

 

It doesn't take much common sense either to realize that the range will be short either, you guys are just looking for reasons to support your idea, because its something that has never been tried.

THIS WOULD BE FUN!

It would add more depth to ash, who is a press buttons to win frame (which is prevalent in most frames atm)

It would make sense

This is beta, so if it really is that overpowered it could be reverted. 

Nothing about it screams overpowered either, it just screams useful.

 

IMPORTANT ->People never complain about novas wormhole, which is odd because it is pretty much the exact thing and DOES teleport you 50 meters, along with your team. For 75 energy, coming from a frame that can hold 5x that amount.<-IMPORTANT

 

If balancing is really such a big issue, just give him a landing animation, make it reversed of novas wormhole, longer cast to teleport, immediate mobility after vs. immediate mobility first, halted recover. The possibilities are endless, but you guys don't want to break the mold, and experiment with things that could be GOOD for the game. Instead you have this mindset that range can not be adjusted, animation speed can't, and existing mobility exploits are okay because they already exist.

[ThePresident777]

/signed

[SquirmyBurrito]

Teleport would still be functionally different from Smokescreen. Smokescreen is a get-out-of-jail-free card for finding yourself surrounded by enemies that can sometimes come in handy for canceling out knockdowns before they happen. It adds a bit of melee power, sure, but that's it. I'm not asking for a 50m range aoe stun, either. Under the proposed changes it would be of a much shorter range, more functional in correcting a mistimed jump or an energy-fueled dodge maneuver than something of actual mobility. The point of introducing the stun as an AOE rather than a single target function was also more for the purpose of introducing team utility, since people seem to think that's a must-have for Ash.

 

I'm fine with the other suggestions of introducing a more lenient targeting system or simply removing its target requirement in exchange for a range decrease, but your claim that "Teleport is fine because Ash's other three abilities make up for it" is ridiculously flawed. Each and every Warframe has four abilities, not three. Following your logic, Fireball, Bullet Attractor, Contagion, Bounce, Shock, Overload, Ice Wave, Psychic Bolts, and Super Jump should all be left as is because each Warframe has abilities that compensate for shortcomings. No. The Warframes and their abilities all need adjustments so that players have a reason to use each ability. As it is now, Teleport does nearly nothing that is useful. That's unacceptable.

Lastly, I agree that Ash needs less of a look than some other Warframes right now, but that is largely irrelevant. This is a thread about Ash. Hopefully Teleport will become a bit more useful when Armor/Damage 2.0 comes out and melee hopefully becomes a bit less disadvantaged than it is now.

 

What's wrong with bullet attractor, bounce, and super jump?

 

He is overshadowed by the other frames in the game in all categories, stealth is largely irrelevant as well because the mechanics for it haven't even been decided. Mag, Sayrn, Nova, Excalibur, all laugh at shuriken, which does &!$$ poor against any enemy with some decent shields, and the power of certain skills should not determine the power of others. Loki has longer invisibility which is insanely long with corrupted mods, and he is better at CC then ash's smokescreen. Bladestorm? Are you @(*()$ kidding. That takes forever, and you can kill all the mobs that WOULD kill with your average modded gun in the same amount of time while going invisible getting that "op cc that you reference".

Also, other people suggestions are not mine, so don't try to get me to defend them because I will not. 

Teleport should be blink-esque, have a short range, and a timer of X seconds. 

Everyone here is arguing with invalid points, who cares if frost's snow globe or nyx's chaos good? why are other powers not allowed to work/excel at what they SHOULD DO just because of others, that is some #*($%%@ up logic you have. 

Dishonored didn't have puzzles, if you played on hard with only blink you would see that it wasn't a "win button". In warframe you have no save loads, so no going back if you F*** up either. Comparing the usefulness between the two in their respective games is moot, I was using the example to show how it could be used to add depth, and give ash and ACTUAL niche that isn't supremely #*($%%@ up by every other warframe doing his jobs better. 

Besides, why does he HAVE to teleport to a person or thing, it makes no sense logically, and just makes the ability useless as a whole because all of that time you spend thinking about where to teleport could just be used to hit 2 and be done with it. 

Protip: The range of this could be maxed and balanced. Because thinking that it should have 50 meters base isn't &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; at all, and putting misconceptions that you assumed in your post isn't either.

 

All of the contradictions in these posts are making me rage so bad, you say it will take away skill and just have people exploit? So why don't we just make aiming easier because that fixes the no skill issue, and zorencoptering will always be the dominant form of movement without its removal, if a timer was placed on teleport then you would barely see it. You can zoren copter 30 meters easy in less than 2 seconds. If it had a 5 second timer you are already falling behind. Some people are so opposed to this because adding mobility to a game where you already have ridiculous mobility in the first place so it so far above the AI's mobility is overpowered. 

 

The teleport we have now is the equivalent of only being able jump in certain places in a game like mirrors edge. It would have so much potential but people would go crazy about it because it would add more mobility, to a game based around mobility. 

 

It doesn't take much common sense either to realize that the range will be short either, you guys are just looking for reasons to support your idea, because its something that has never been tried.

THIS WOULD BE FUN!

It would add more depth to ash, who is a press buttons to win frame (which is prevalent in most frames atm)

It would make sense

This is beta, so if it really is that overpowered it could be reverted. 

Nothing about it screams overpowered either, it just screams useful.

 

IMPORTANT ->People never complain about novas wormhole, which is odd because it is pretty much the exact thing and DOES teleport you 50 meters, along with your team. For 75 energy, coming from a frame that can hold 5x that amount.<-IMPORTANT

 

If balancing is really such a big issue, just give him a landing animation, make it reversed of novas wormhole, longer cast to teleport, immediate mobility after vs. immediate mobility first, halted recover. The possibilities are endless, but you guys don't want to break the mold, and experiment with things that could be GOOD for the game. Instead you have this mindset that range can not be adjusted, animation speed can't, and existing mobility exploits are okay because they already exist.

 

Overshadowed how? Stealth is only irrelevant when you're talking about frames without the ability to turn invisible and thus nullify the need to worry about those mechanics. Mag is a good example, as is Excalibur, Saryn's Venom is pretty bad, and Nova's null star is only good for stuns. Two of the examples you brought up failed to counter what I said. The other two also fail as they are just two more examples of frames with good 1s, Ash is another with a highly spammable relatively high damage armor ignoring first skill.

 

Yes, Loki has a longer invisibility. Loki master race blah-blah-blah. And yes he is good for CC. Your point is? Ash isn't a stealth-cc frame, he's clearly a stealth-offense frame. The other 'stealth frame' would be Banshee, and she's a stealth-support-cc frame.

Bladestorm deals 2k+ damage per target, makes you invulnerable during its duration, and ignores armor. Why are you bringing up guns? Guns out-damage most (if not all) damage orientated ults.

 

My posts were made to address multiple things, I'm too lazy to multiquote everyone and carefully break up all their (and my own) things so that each person get's an individual reply. Sorry about that.

 

Why does it need to be like blink? Why not just fix its targeting mechanics and leave it as is? 

 

No one is arguing that. So your reply was unnecessary. 

 

Each open ended encounter was a puzzle. And I played through the game multiple times and various difficulties (and self-imposed challenges), Blink trivialized most of the game's content that wasn't focused on pure fighting (which you can avoid).

 

1. How is free-aim teleportation going to give him a niche?

2. Read my responses, the niche he already fills is one only he fills.

 

Why does he need free-aim teleportation? The fact is his current method of teleportation fits into his stealth-damage role. It'd fit even better if he could/can (never bothered to check so if it already does, please tell me) teleport to someone without alerting them. He's an assassin frame. He doesn't need free-aim teleportation just because you want it. His current teleport is perfectly fine barring aiming issues.

 

Contradictions? Not in my posts. Did I say anything about skill? I don't think I did.

 

The rest of that paragraph and the next two are largely irrelevant.

 

Worm hole has its own problems. One being that it doesn't let you instantly teleport somewhere. It requires that you go into it before it will spit you out anywhere. It costs a good chunk of energy and relies on duration, so using fleeting expertise to cut this down hurts it. Using Narrowminded gimps it's range so using that to buff its duration is a bad idea. Just saying that incase you planned on mentioning it.

 

You seem (to me) to be approaching this like it's some needed fix for Ash's teleport. It isn't. I'm not trying to clip your wings of creativity. I'm just suggesting a easier and more simple fix that could also be used to help fix other frames with aiming issues.

 

TL;DR- Ash isn't some horribly broken frame, his biggest issue is a little difficulty aiming his teleport past a certain distance. That's an easy fix. You don't need to reinvent the wheel to fix a flat tire.

[JukeBoxx831]

He is overshadowed by the other frames in the game in all categories, stealth is largely irrelevant as well because the mechanics for it haven't even been decided. Mag, Sayrn, Nova, Excalibur, all laugh at shuriken, which does &!$$ poor against any enemy with some decent shields, and the power of certain skills should not determine the power of others. Loki has longer invisibility which is insanely long with corrupted mods, and he is better at CC then ash's smokescreen. Bladestorm? Are you @(*()$ kidding. That takes forever, and you can kill all the mobs that WOULD kill with your average modded gun in the same amount of time while going invisible getting that "op cc that you reference".

Also, other people suggestions are not mine, so don't try to get me to defend them because I will not. 

Teleport should be blink-esque, have a short range, and a timer of X seconds. 

Everyone here is arguing with invalid points, who cares if frost's snow globe or nyx's chaos good? why are other powers not allowed to work/excel at what they SHOULD DO just because of others, that is some #*($%%@ up logic you have. 

Dishonored didn't have puzzles, if you played on hard with only blink you would see that it wasn't a "win button". In warframe you have no save loads, so no going back if you F*** up either. Comparing the usefulness between the two in their respective games is moot, I was using the example to show how it could be used to add depth, and give ash and ACTUAL niche that isn't supremely #*($%%@ up by every other warframe doing his jobs better. 

Besides, why does he HAVE to teleport to a person or thing, it makes no sense logically, and just makes the ability useless as a whole because all of that time you spend thinking about where to teleport could just be used to hit 2 and be done with it. 

Protip: The range of this could be maxed and balanced. Because thinking that it should have 50 meters base isn't &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; at all, and putting misconceptions that you assumed in your post isn't either.

 

Who is he overshadowed by?

What do you mean stealth is irrelevant "because the machanics for it haven't even been decided"?

First you say Shuriken is bad damage, then you say similar skills should not be compared.. Okay.. Oh and you also compare the duration of Smoke Screen to Loki's Invisibility LOL.

Shuriken deals 500 armor ignore damage lol and when maxed it throws 2 of them at the same time.. Mag's Pull = 300 damage, Nova's 1 = 150 damage, Excalibur's Slash Dash (1) = 500 damage.. lol so your argument is invalid, Ash deals the SAME or MORE damage.

At least comparing skills, you're dealing with something similar, but you go on to compare damage between Ash's Bladestorm and a gun.. Lol..

Also, I wasn't saying Teleport should be a useless skill, I was saying there are other Warframes out there in more need of a fix than Ash.

Yes, you're right, if they did a free aim teleport the distance would be reduced to create balance. Why completely overhaul a skill that could be fixed with just changing the proc to nearest enemy to reticle? Instead of reducing distance, putting a timer, and changing it to free aim.

 

All of the contradictions in these posts are making me rage so bad, you say it will take away skill and just have people exploit? So why don't we just make aiming easier because that fixes the no skill issue, and zorencoptering will always be the dominant form of movement without its removal, if a timer was placed on teleport then you would barely see it. You can zoren copter 30 meters easy in less than 2 seconds. If it had a 5 second timer you are already falling behind. Some people are so opposed to this because adding mobility to a game where you already have ridiculous mobility in the first place so it so far above the AI's mobility is overpowered. 

 

The teleport we have now is the equivalent of only being able jump in certain places in a game like mirrors edge. It would have so much potential but people would go crazy about it because it would add more mobility, to a game based around mobility.

 

If you hate being slower than a Zorencopter then make a post to remove it, even though I would not agree to that as well. Everyone is allowed their own opinions.

 

It doesn't take much common sense either to realize that the range will be short either, you guys are just looking for reasons to support your idea, because its something that has never been tried.

THIS WOULD BE FUN!

It would add more depth to ash, who is a press buttons to win frame (which is prevalent in most frames atm)

It would make sense

This is beta, so if it really is that overpowered it could be reverted. 

Nothing about it screams overpowered either, it just screams useful.

 

IMPORTANT ->People never complain about novas wormhole, which is odd because it is pretty much the exact thing and DOES teleport you 50 meters, along with your team. For 75 energy, coming from a frame that can hold 5x that amount.<-IMPORTANT

 

If balancing is really such a big issue, just give him a landing animation, make it reversed of novas wormhole, longer cast to teleport, immediate mobility after vs. immediate mobility first, halted recover. The possibilities are endless, but you guys don't want to break the mold, and experiment with things that could be GOOD for the game. Instead you have this mindset that range can not be adjusted, animation speed can't, and existing mobility exploits are okay because they already exist.

 

How does having the ability to mass teleport nonstop fulfill a niche or add depth? Because herpa-derp I can juuump here there and everywhere! Ok Nightcrawler go back to X-Men.

 

Worm hole has its own problems. One being that it doesn't let you instantly teleport somewhere. It requires that you go into it before it will spit you out anywhere. It costs a good chunk of energy and relies on duration, so using fleeting expertise to cut this down hurts it. Using Narrowminded gimps it's range so using that to buff its duration is a bad idea. Just saying that incase you planned on mentioning it.

 

TL;DR- Ash isn't some horribly broken frame, his biggest issue is a little difficulty aiming his teleport past a certain distance. That's an easy fix. You don't need to reinvent the wheel to fix a flat tire.

 

Worm Hole is unaffected by Power Range or Duration, at all ranks it lasts for 40 sec (or until all uses are used) IIRC and it will always be 40 meters regardless of increased or decreased Power Range.

 

But LOL @ the TL;DR, I couldn't put into better words than that xD

Edited November 13, 2013 by JukeBoxx831

[Cwierz]

 

Who is he overshadowed by?

What do you mean stealth is irrelevant "because the machanics for it haven't even been decided"?

First you say Shuriken is bad damage, then you say similar skills should not be compared.. Okay.. Oh and you also compare the duration of Smoke Screen to Loki's Invisibility LOL.

Shuriken deals 500 armor ignore damage lol and when maxed it throws 2 of them at the same time.. Mag's Pull = 300 damage, Nova's 1 = 150 damage, Excalibur's Slash Dash (1) = 500 damage.. lol so your argument is invalid, Ash deals the SAME or MORE damage.

At least comparing skills, you're dealing with something similar, but you go on to compare damage between Ash's Bladestorm and a gun.. Lol..

Also, I wasn't saying Teleport should be a useless skill, I was saying there are other Warframes out there in more need of a fix than Ash.

Yes, you're right, if they did a free aim teleport the distance would be reduced to create balance. Why completely overhaul a skill that could be fixed with just changing the proc to nearest enemy to reticle? Instead of reducing distance, putting a timer, and changing it to free aim.

 

 

 

If you hate being slower than a Zorencopter then make a post to remove it, even though I would not agree to that as well. Everyone is allowed their own opinions.

 

 

 

How does having the ability to mass teleport nonstop fulfill a niche or add depth? Because herpa-derp I can juuump here there and everywhere! Ok Nightcrawler go back to X-Men.

 

 

Worm Hole is unaffected by Power Range or Duration, at all ranks it lasts for 40 sec (or until all uses are used) IIRC and it will always be 40 meters regardless of increased or decreased Power Range.

 

But LOL @ the TL;DR, I couldn't put into better words than that xD

 

I am going to ignore the fact that you misread everything in the post, ignored many things I said, and tried to risrepresent the information I presented in order to boost your internet argumental status.

1.) never said that similar skills shouldn't be compared you dolt, I said that just because one skill is good doesn't mean others should suffer based on that justification.

2.) in relation to what you said about the damage of ones https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

3.) This change is warranted to combat the situationilism of the ability, with your logic being applied to banshees silence we shouldn't change it ever, no matter how obselete it becomes.

4.) Zoren Copters are better than all forms of movement, and if teleport had a timer they would still be theoretically better. It would give him a way to instantly bypass enemies in stealth, and give him some combat prowress with some creative teleports. Also about the whole "cant keep up whine S#&$"

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

5.) you do not see the implications, can't remember the fact that a timer would be due, and the fact that the current teleport is to situational, whereas the version I proposed has the same function, but with more to make it less situational.

 

Also, wormhole is affected by mods.

 

 

 

 

1.) Overshadowed how? Stealth is only irrelevant when you're talking about frames without the ability to turn invisible and thus nullify the need to worry about those mechanics. Mag is a good example, as is Excalibur, Saryn's Venom is pretty bad, and Nova's null star is only good for stuns. Two of the examples you brought up failed to counter what I said. The other two also fail as they are just two more examples of frames with good 1s, Ash is another with a highly spammable relatively high damage armor ignoring first skill.

 

2,) Yes, Loki has a longer invisibility. Loki master race blah-blah-blah. And yes he is good for CC. Your point is? Ash isn't a stealth-cc frame, he's clearly a stealth-offense frame. The other 'stealth frame' would be Banshee, and she's a stealth-support-cc frame.

3.) Bladestorm deals 2k+ damage per target, makes you invulnerable during its duration, and ignores armor. Why are you bringing up guns? Guns out-damage most (if not all) damage orientated ults.

 

5.) 1. How is free-aim teleportation going to give him a niche?

2. Read my responses, the niche he already fills is one only he fills.

 

6.) Why does he need free-aim teleportation? The fact is his current method of teleportation fits into his stealth-damage role. It'd fit even better if he could/can (never bothered to check so if it already does, please tell me) teleport to someone without alerting them. He's an assassin frame. He doesn't need free-aim teleportation just because you want it. His current teleport is perfectly fine barring aiming issues.

 

7.)Contradictions? Not in my posts. Did I say anything about skill? I don't think I did.

 

8.) Worm hole has its own problems. One being that it doesn't let you instantly teleport somewhere. It requires that you go into it before it will spit you out anywhere. It costs a good chunk of energy and relies on duration, so using fleeting expertise to cut this down hurts it. Using Narrowminded gimps it's range so using that to buff its duration is a bad idea. Just saying that incase you planned on mentioning it.

 

9.) TL;DR- Ash isn't some horribly broken frame, his biggest issue is a little difficulty aiming his teleport past a certain distance. That's an easy fix. You don't need to reinvent the wheel to fix a flat tire.

1. Every frame in the game gets invisibility for 100,00 credits, a days worth of waiting, and some common materials, almost every frame does better damage with their abilities or has good CC to compensate 2 of which has a higher base run speed, his one does 500 (I believe) damage at most without any multipliers to two enemies maximum. Pull- deals 300 in a huge radius ragdolling, Null Star- deals 150 AI damage, stuns, and fires off 8 of them without you even aiming, Venom- Best damage of ones, slash dash- same damage as shuriken, is from the basic starter frame, can hit an infinitesimal amount of enemies as long as they are within range and in a line, Freeze- asuming you have a good lobby you have one enemy out of the picture for a good chunk of time, Mind controll- WAY better, Shock- Dat corpus power and CC.... His really is just average, and because it can only hit two without and bonuses for average damage it will always be sub par.

 

2. Will re-adress at end of post.

 

3. Bladestorms cast time is huge, you can kill anything you would normally kill faster while invis'd with a decent weapon. It makes no sense to use it, many other ults also deal 2000 damage, and are one cast time then damage ticks on everything. Invisibility makes you pseudo invulnerable, which is close enough, and allows for you to res, run, and get better melee damage off.

 

4. Skipped four, oh well

 

5.) Free teleport gives him a niche by offering him a mobility role, giving him something to bring to the table in runs other than defense based modes, and can provide benefits in the form of better depth in combat, and increased stealth capabilities, it differentiates him front just zoren coptering to the enemy and jump kicking it. Because he is overshadowed with the inclusion of shade every frame can be a stealth offense frame, as long as one of their abilities is silent, and they have a silencer mod.

 

6.) His teleport in its current iteration is so situational that it warrants a huge change like this, just as banshees silence does. This is something new, that keeps the basis of the old skill, without introducing something game breaking while keeping the abilities of the old version.

 

7.) Not directed at you, I am to lazy in most cases to multiquote.

 

8.) I have never ONCE said what the range should be, stop assuming I have, that was in direct response to somebody else saying that the only way it could ever be balanced was if it had a long cast time, a decent travel time, and a higher energy/timer then goes on to say then to say that wormhole was useless, after saying that ash should have a 100% wormhole copy without a team function.

 

back to 2.) Now that we have determined that the only reason left to choose ash over anything else is the extra benefits from invisibilty (namely the stun and the melee crits we are led back to loki, the frame who does both of those better.

 

9.) When you fix a flat tire do you air it halfway up and call it good or JUST patch up the hole it might have? No. Besides, that was a bad analogy. A more fit example would be 

-Say you have a computer that can only play 3 audio files, should you fix it to play a couple more, or fix them to play the rest of the files you have?-

Edited November 13, 2013 by Cwierz

[JukeBoxx831]

I am going to ignore the fact that you misread everything in the post, ignored many things I said, and tried to risrepresent the information I presented in order to boost your internet argumental status.

1.) never said that similar skills shouldn't be compared you dolt, I said that just because one skill is good doesn't mean others should suffer based on that justification.

2.) in relation to what you said about the damage of ones https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

3.) This change is warranted to combat the situationilism of the ability, with your logic being applied to banshees silence we shouldn't change it ever, no matter how obselete it becomes.

4.) Zoren Copters are better than all forms of movement, and if teleport had a timer they would still be theoretically better. It would give him a way to instantly bypass enemies in stealth, and give him some combat prowress with some creative teleports. Also about the whole "cant keep up whine S#&$"

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

5.) you do not see the implications, can't remember the fact that a timer would be due, and the fact that the current teleport is to situational, whereas the version I proposed has the same function, but with more to make it less situational.

 

Also, wormhole is affected by mods.

 

1. Ok, I guess I misread that and didn't understand by "other skills" you meant within the same Frame, as opposed to "other skills" on other Frames.

2. My figures on other Frames 1st ability is based on some of the Frames of which YOU yourself suggested comparison. You also went on to use my own mentioned numbers in reply to SquirmyBurrito lol..

3. I would agree if Banshee had 3 other GOOD skills (like Ash does), but alas she only has one which is her 2.

4. The game is based on mobility as you mentioned, which they provide to players via environmental use (wall running), sprinting, air kick, air kick + melee, and skills. I'm sorry if Teleport isn't to your exact liking, but others have also said it fits what they want from Ash. One person even liked the idea of teleporting to a target, but wished it was behind the target so they could perform an assassination attack. I would rather be able to teleport to a target and cause enemies to target me, then Smoke Screen and AOE stun them all so my team and myself can slaughter them.

5. All skills are situational. No skill should ever be meant to be used all of the time. There's no skill that you would always use for any situation (besides M. Prime).

 

Also, the last time I tested it.. Wormhole was unaffected by any mods. Where did you get this information from? The Wiki? I'll test it out later, but even after Corrupted Mods my Wormhole has never been affected by Duration, Range, or anything.

 

1. Every frame in the game gets invisibility for 100,00 credits, a days worth of waiting, and some common materials, almost every frame does better damage with their abilities or has good CC to compensate 2 of which has a higher base run speed, his one does 500 (I believe) damage at most without any multipliers to two enemies maximum. Pull- deals 300 in a huge radius ragdolling, Null Star- deals 150 AI damage, stuns, and fires off 8 of them without you even aiming, Venom- Best damage of ones, slash dash- same damage as shuriken, is from the basic starter frame, can hit an infinitesimal amount of enemies as long as they are within range and in a line, Freeze- asuming you have a good lobby you have one enemy out of the picture for a good chunk of time, Mind controll- WAY better, Shock- Dat corpus power and CC.... His really is just average, and because it can only hit two without and bonuses for average damage it will always be sub par.

 

3. Bladestorms cast time is huge, you can kill anything you would normally kill faster while invis'd with a decent weapon. It makes no sense to use it, many other ults also deal 2000 damage, and are one cast time then damage ticks on everything. Invisibility makes you pseudo invulnerable, which is close enough, and allows for you to res, run, and get better melee damage off.

 

5.) Free teleport gives him a niche by offering him a mobility role, giving him something to bring to the table in runs other than defense based modes, and can provide benefits in the form of better depth in combat, and increased stealth capabilities, it differentiates him front just zoren coptering to the enemy and jump kicking it. Because he is overshadowed with the inclusion of shade every frame can be a stealth offense frame, as long as one of their abilities is silent, and they have a silencer mod.

 

back to 2.) Now that we have determined that the only reason left to choose ash over anything else is the extra benefits from invisibilty (namely the stun and the melee crits we are led back to loki, the frame who does both of those better.

 

1. Shade can't even keep you invisible after shooting your gun, while Smoke Screen can. Not many Novas build for Power Duration (also, every other stat you talked about was base -no mods- idk why you decided to incorporate duration mods into the calculation for Nova's 1) to give them those 2 extra shots, meaning she only gets 6 orbs @ 150 damage each (900 damage) with 1 sec delay between shots. Mind Control allows your target to fight for you, dealing a good bit of damage as long as they're high level or a strong unit (heavy grineer) but in turn you lose affinity should you kill them with it active, or should one of their allies kill them while they're Mind Controlled. Volt's Shock.. 200 damage per target, up to 5 targets lol 1000 damage just like Shuriken.

 

3. Actually Bladestorm is a pretty quick cast, as soon as you cast it Ash goes flying to that target and begins smashing his blade into their skull. Now if you meant animation time, then yes, it is a long animation (watching him jump from target to target along with all of the individual hits). It was stated that Bladestorm could be used in a panic situation that YOU suggested. During the animation of Bladestorm, Ash cannot receive damage and he goes around killing almost ALL 15 targets. While he is jumping around not receiving damage, he is also regenerating his Shields so he takes no Health damage once it ends (if any enemies even survive Bladestorm's high damage).

 

5. How many people use a silencer mod, as opposed to damage? In most situations it's much better to take damage over silence. Originally I only talked about the silence mods vs Banshee because you talked about Zorencoptering being equivalent or better than Teleport.

 

2. Loki doesn't AOE or single target stun lol. When a Loki goes invisible enemies continue to shoot where he had disappeared because he doesn't have a stun that removes enemies Alert status, which is why it is difficult for a Loki to rely on invisibility to escape a situation. Loki must STAY invisible when enemies are around, and go into hiding before it wears off or use a second skill (Decoy) to divert attention. His melee crits are exactly the same amount of boost as Ash's, therefor it isn't "better". The only advantage Loki has over Ash when it comes to invisibility is the duration, which Ash makes up for with an AOE stun so he can escape. In order for a Loki to pull off Smoke Screen (35 energy), he must use 2 skills (Invisibility + Decoy = 75 energy).

Edited November 13, 2013 by JukeBoxx831

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

Worm Hole is unaffected by Power Range or Duration, at all ranks it lasts for 40 sec (or until all uses are used) IIRC and it will always be 40 meters regardless of increased or decreased Power Range.

 

But LOL @ the TL;DR, I couldn't put into better words than that xD

 

 

Really? I was just going by the wiki under it's maximization section. It does say that range is unaffected though. It seems conflicted on duration though.

 

1. Every frame in the game gets invisibility for 100,00 credits, a days worth of waiting, and some common materials, almost every frame does better damage with their abilities or has good CC to compensate 2 of which has a higher base run speed, his one does 500 (I believe) damage at most without any multipliers to two enemies maximum. Pull- deals 300 in a huge radius ragdolling, Null Star- deals 150 AI damage, stuns, and fires off 8 of them without you even aiming, Venom- Best damage of ones, slash dash- same damage as shuriken, is from the basic starter frame, can hit an infinitesimal amount of enemies as long as they are within range and in a line, Freeze- asuming you have a good lobby you have one enemy out of the picture for a good chunk of time, Mind controll- WAY better, Shock- Dat corpus power and CC.... His really is just average, and because it can only hit two without and bonuses for average damage it will always be sub par.

 

2. Will re-adress at end of post.

 

3. Bladestorms cast time is huge, you can kill anything you would normally kill faster while invis'd with a decent weapon. It makes no sense to use it, many other ults also deal 2000 damage, and are one cast time then damage ticks on everything. Invisibility makes you pseudo invulnerable, which is close enough, and allows for you to res, run, and get better melee damage off.

 

4. Skipped four, oh well

 

5.) Free teleport gives him a niche by offering him a mobility role, giving him something to bring to the table in runs other than defense based modes, and can provide benefits in the form of better depth in combat, and increased stealth capabilities, it differentiates him front just zoren coptering to the enemy and jump kicking it. Because he is overshadowed with the inclusion of shade every frame can be a stealth offense frame, as long as one of their abilities is silent, and they have a silencer mod.

 

6.) His teleport in its current iteration is so situational that it warrants a huge change like this, just as banshees silence does. This is something new, that keeps the basis of the old skill, without introducing something game breaking while keeping the abilities of the old version.

 

7.) Not directed at you, I am to lazy in most cases to multiquote.

 

8.) I have never ONCE said what the range should be, stop assuming I have, that was in direct response to somebody else saying that the only way it could ever be balanced was if it had a long cast time, a decent travel time, and a higher energy/timer then goes on to say then to say that wormhole was useless, after saying that ash should have a 100% wormhole copy without a team function.

 

back to 2.) Now that we have determined that the only reason left to choose ash over anything else is the extra benefits from invisibilty (namely the stun and the melee crits we are led back to loki, the frame who does both of those better.

 

9.) When you fix a flat tire do you air it halfway up and call it good or JUST patch up the hole it might have? No. Besides, that was a bad analogy. A more fit example would be 

-Say you have a computer that can only play 3 audio files, should you fix it to play a couple more, or fix them to play the rest of the files you have?-

 

1.

A) Shade's invisibility is inferior as it doesn't protect you once you start shooting.

B) Better single target damage?

C) CC is irrelevant to a discussion purely about damage.

D) Nova's single target damage is inferior to Ash's as fair as ults go and Loki's CC is nothing to write home about by itself. Blindcalibur arguably does the job better.

E) 500x2 is 1k and it can be applied to a single target. Pull is superior because of its cc and target amount. Null star isn't as spammable which lowers its overall dps. Venom isn't that good last time I checked (or those people complaining about it being bad are wrong, one of those two). Slash dash is good. Freeze is inferior. Mind control is buggy and is only really good in higher level content, and it doesn't exactly kill the target. Shock's single target damage is worse. So out of 8 examples, his is tied for most single target damage but third in general. Sounds pretty above average to me.

 

2. We have determined nothing of the sort. Ash has clear benefits in his high single target damage, invulnerability, AoE stun, high damage-spammable first skill, and his invisibility.

 

3. No it isn't. It's duration is though, 15 seconds if it takes him one second per target. Why are you comparing a warframe ability to a weapon? Weapons>damage orientated ults. That doesn't just apply to ash. What other frames give you ~15 seconds of invulnerability while dealing 2k+ damage per target? And that's without us going into damage maximized builds. Invisibility doesn't deal damage by itself nor guarantee invulnerability. Not even sure why you're bringing it up when it is another skill he has. 

4. 'kay.

 

5. It's an unnecessary 'fix'. No, other frames can not be stealth offense frames with just shade. Shade doesn't cloak while you're shooting, most people DON'T use silencing mods, and shade requires comparatively close proximity which comes with the risk of discovery while you approach an enemy.

 

6. Situational does not mean useless. Loki's switch teleport is also situational, where is your campaign to give him free-aim teleportation? Just wondering.

 

7. 'kay.

 

8. I never said anything about range either. No, he doesn't need a solo wormhole copy. He'd be perfectly fine with his current ability if it had its aim fixed in the way I have been suggesting.

 

9. How does this equate to half-a**ing his teleport fix (what you're implying I'm doing). Fixing its aim is perfectly valid and completely rectifies the only thing about it that is broken. My analogy was not bad. It fit perfectly. In fact, your analogy is actually the bad one. As it looks at the situation as if Ash's teleport (the computer) is only capable of a fraction of what it is supposed to do. As it stands, Ash's teleport does 90% of what it is supposed to do. It only fails to properly target enemies outside a certain range. Nothing implies nor directly states that Ash's teleport is supposed to be able to do all these other things you seem to be expecting it to do.

 

TL;DR- Read my last tl;dr.

[__Kanade__]

No one is really thinking about the massive exploit free teleport would have. With its low cost along with Streamline alone would mean Ash players would just be blinking across room after room after room ignoring enemies and just reaching the objective, then blinking left and right til they reach the exit leaving more enemies behind.

[DiabolusUrsus]

So Smoke Screen turning you invisible and giving you free movement since the enemies are no longer actively attacking where you disappeared (due to them shortly being stunned) while also giving a 50% boost to normal attacks and 100% boost to charged attacks, "that's it"? Lol that's not enough? Smoke Screen's stun AOE doesn't count for you and other people's idea of "team play"? Making easy targets of enemies surrounding you :\ I guess..

 

I wasn't intending to claim Ash is fine because he has 3 workable abilities, as you said and read and repeated "Lastly, I agree that Ash needs less of a look than some other Warframes right now" because he has more working skills than most other Warframes. THAT was my statement I intended to make.

 

So in case you didn't understand what I meant due to the way I put it or you read it:

I believe there are other Warframes that need more attention than Ash because they LACK 3 skills worth using (overly exaggerated lol but to get my point across more thoroughly) while he has 3 GOOD skills and 1 that's arguably useful or useless.

 

No, because it's free movement for what, 8 seconds? It's an escape mechanism. Can it be used offensively? Yes, of course. Should it be? That's another issue entirely. With melee in its current condition, Ash's short duration of invisibility is not going to provide significant amounts of damage unless he's wielding an Orthos or Galatine. Furthermore, the last place you want to be when your invisibility wears off is in the middle of an enemy mob, which is precisely where you need to be to take advantage of the melee buff. What I'm saying is that you were overblowing the effectiveness of Smokescreen as an AOE stun/utility ability. Does it provide a wide selection of beneficial effects? Yes, it most certainly does. However, as others have said, each and every one of those effects is overshadowed by more specialized versions present on other Warframes. Every other Warframe with an AOE stun has a stronger and/or longer effect. Loki's Invisibility lasts significantly longer, and affords free movement as long as you don't try to cast it in the middle of an enemy mob. That's literally the only thing Smokescreen truly has going for it: you can cast it in the middle of a large group as an "oh S#&$, I need to get out of here" button. Teleport, on the other hand, does the exact opposite and puts you into situations where you need an "oh S#&$" button on account of its enemy target requirement. It is counter-intuitive that an ability geared towards mobility and positioning limits your mobility and requires putting yourself in a bad position.

That's why it's actually rather ridiculous that you think giving Ash "another AOE stun" will somehow make him overpowered. It won't, especially when the 25 energy + 10 for the stun effectively costs the same amount of energy as his other AOE stun. The whole point behind adding in a short-ranged CC teleport is that it gives Ash a role on the team which doesn't effectively exist at the moment: mobility crowd control/disruption. Let's take a look at how other Warframes function in CC:

Nyx: Good at preventing enemies from focusing their fire on teammates by getting them to attack each other for relatively long durations of time.

Rhino: Deals a chunk of damage and leaves enemies suspended in the air, conveniently ripe for headshots.

Frost: Good at slowing enemies to a crawl within Snow Globe.

Vauban: Good at holding a group of enemies in the air for a long time. Rhino Stomp minus the damage with a cheaper cost.

Excalibur/Nekros: Good at making groups of enemies stop attacking for a select duration of time.

Now what do we see in common here?

1. The CC abilities all suffer from the fact that they only affect enemies that are in the area at the time, meaning that any enemies coming into range or spawning after the fact will be completely uncontrollable until the original effect wears off completely.

2. They require (with the exception of Nyx's abilities) the Warframe in question to be right in the thick of as many enemies as possible, which is something you don't want when CC actually starts to matter, instead of being a matter of convenience.

3. Other Warframes with Burst/Over time damage death that is passed off as CC.

 

So how does Ash fit into this?

Well, the combination of mobility afforded by a short ranged-teleport and the survivability afforded by Smokescreen means that he can apply CC to more powerful enemies with very little risk to himself. He's applying a significantly weaker CC effect to his targets, lasting only a second or two, but he can apply it continuously, so long as he has the energy to support it. He's the 'Frame you call in when the resident Nyx is saying "Crap, can't use Chaos again until all the original enemies are dead/ it wears off," or when Rhino doesn't have the energy for another Stomp. He trades overwhelming effectiveness for surgically applied CC that is ultimately more reliable, which will greatly boost his value to the team. Perhaps more importantly, the nature of Ash's CC abilities would limit his ability to take advantage of them. How often do you find yourself successfully melee attacking more than one of the enemies you stunned with Smokescreen? Not often, because the stun is that short. The same would go for Teleport.

 

Coming back to your "that wasn't what I was trying to say thing," that was precisely what you said, though. "I would agree that his Teleport needs a change, if..." Putting that "if" in there means you don't agree that it needs a change. The reason you offered for it not needing a change was Ash having three other perfectly workable abilities. Ergo, having a relatively useless ability is okay as long as a Warframe has useful abilities to make up for it. Changing your statement to "it's just that other Warframes need more help" is also irrelevant. As has been said, this thread is about Ash. It simply says "Teleport needs a change," not "Teleport needs a change first." It isn't trying to establish an order of chronological priority for tweaks and adjustments. It simply mentions that there is a need for tweaking and adjustment.

Edited November 13, 2013 by DiabolusUrsus

[DiabolusUrsus]

What's wrong with bullet attractor, bounce, and super jump?

 

Bullet attractor prevents teammates from taking down higher priority targets in the vicinity of whatever it is attached to. Mag is honestly better off just spamming Pull. Thinking about it, Crush would have been a better example. What does Bounce do? It provides insignificant amounts of jump height, and anything it can do in terms of CC against enemy units, Bastille and Vortex do much, much better. Super Jump? Really? Outside of letting Excalibur effectively ignore stairs, what does it do that's useful? It's a nice CC when combined with Focus and Heavy Impact, but I wouldn't say you can honestly call an ability that requires two other mods to be useful actually useful. To put the last nail in the coffin, it's effectively useless unless the room you're in has a really high ceiling. I was trying to stick to abilities that were more or less completely overshadowed by other abilities on the exact same Warframe.

[Wiegraf]

No one is really thinking about the massive exploit free teleport would have. With its low cost along with Streamline alone would mean Ash players would just be blinking across room after room after room ignoring enemies and just reaching the objective, then blinking left and right til they reach the exit leaving more enemies behind.

 

So... basically what Nova can do right now, with a proper build, having a higher maximum energy, Streamline and the ability to carry the full team across room after room after room, ignoring enemies and just reaching the objective, then wormholing left and right until they reach the exit leaving more enemies behind?

 

I fail to see the exploit given a much larger such 'exploit' is already a standard ability of another frame.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Wiegraf