AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[TeaHands]

4 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i can take some heat 

Finally, some pure, raw, uncut, comedy gold.

[Tyreaus]

5 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

how do i  close mentions from a thread i feel like a boomer now , i dont wanna reply to 10 disingenous and insincere people that dont wanna talk or discuss but ridicule and posture 

Setting aside the irony:

1. Click your name in the top right of the website

2. Click "Account Settings"

3. On the right side, click "Notification Settings"

4. Uncheck "Mentions & My Content", and other notification settings as desired

5. To be on the safe side, repeat 1 and 2, click "Manage Followed Content"

I don't have any followed content so it's a bit of a guess but there should be some means to unsubscribe there, if anything pops up.

Steps 1-4 will remove notifications altogether, step 5 should do it for this thread in particular.

[_LotusPrime_]

you know what f it i dug this hole lets stay , you wont take the stage from me with your non existant arguments and shtty memes , changed my mind 

unless this thread closes , no aoe nerf fo u 

[p_silveira]

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's why he/she/they are on a week old account randomly trolling threads and planting scarecrows all over the place...

Goddamnit, I should have noticed that detail earlier. Thanks for the heads up though.

[_LotusPrime_]

and even if they ged rid of aoe lauchers ? people are just gonna boom on beam weapons and if its  not that its warframe abilities till everything is reduced to mk1-furis or lato , either you want that or dont wanna see thats the logical conclusion of your asking of nerfs 

if you wanna enjoy single target you go solo ,no whining okay , now thats the way 

Becasue when you ask of other toys to be nerfed down its your ego , tame it , its not our job , okay ? 

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

 
unless this thread closes , no aoe nerf fo u 

Ah , so that's the objective.

Clever , make enough noise and spout enough nonsense to derail the topic.

Almost fell for it too, fortunately most of the players here are civil enough so that should not be a problem.

But really would request to stay on topic going forward.

[_LotusPrime_]

i tried to be nice , but its not people's business for asking you to be compromsiing in pub missions , people dont and naturally so , not care about your single target fixation in pubs 

this game is not an fps death match variant , goal is for the finish of the objective , if you are not  collaborating as a team member you are just selfish and needing to play an fps game not warframe , 

[_LotusPrime_]

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah , so that's the objective.

Clever , make enough noise and spout enough nonsense to derail the topic.

Almost fell for it too, fortunately most of the players here are civil enough so that should not be a problem.

But really would request to stay on topic going forward.

its amazing 

its amazing that you hold me to such high standards when your nerfy nerf buddies uses mem gif as an argument  

You know not everything someone says is hyper serious , DE is going to nerf some aspects of aoe laucnhers because of all the whining , i know 

but sometimes its okay to talk to the ones that have low standard from their isle of language 

 

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i tried to be nice , but its not people's business for asking you to be compromsiing in pub missions , people dont and naturally so , not care about your single target fixation in pubs 

this game is not an fps death match variant , goal is for the finish of the objective , if you collaborate as a team member you are just selfish and needing to play an fps game not warframe , 

I humbly disagree.

It is a game to be played for enjoyment. And anything that gets in the way of that enjoyment (of anyone) needs to be looked at.

[_LotusPrime_]

5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ah , so that's the objective.

Clever , make enough noise and spout enough nonsense to derail the topic.

Almost fell for it too, fortunately most of the players here are civil enough so that should not be a problem.

But really would request to stay on topic going forward.

also funny how you try to portrait me as some marvel comic villain , what type of rhetoric you expect people are gonna fall for ...??? this ?? lmao  okay buddy okay okay 

[Rakosta_Kai]

8 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i can say the same things on my main

But you won't because you were invite to do that days ago.
I know this because I posted that invitation.

11 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

you just want any reason to disqualify my points like the other 5 guys , its okay people with brains can see that its alright . i can take some heat 

Correction: I said your arguments were irrelevant to the point of the change first. 😀

And, Strawmen don't have brains— There's a whole song, and everything about that...

[_LotusPrime_]

its always this ' vague ' enjoyment ?? what are you talking about ? be specific , you think people frigin care if youre bring twin kohmak or a kuva zarr , give me a percentage of the people that care about that sh*t , gimme a poll , than i'll settle down , you talk like youre not even playing warframe im honest here 

[Tyreaus]

5 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

you know what f it i dug this hole lets stay , you wont take the stage from me with your non existant arguments and shtty memes , changed my mind 

unless this thread closes , no aoe nerf fo u 

If you're insisting on staying, we hope you'll ignore the "non-existent arguments and 'shtty' memes" and have a worthwhile discussion.

2 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

and even if they ged rid of aoe lauchers ? people are just gonna boom on beam weapons and if its  not that its warframe abilities till everything is reduced to mk1-furis or lato , either you want that or dont wanna see thats the logical conclusion of your asking of nerfs 

You're forgetting to factor in why nerfs are requested. For example, let's say the reason is because the current state of AoE launchers means most of a squad has nothing to do. That means that nerfing only has to go far enough to make that not the case. That could mean beam weapons or AoE abilities are perfectly fine: they might be strong, but they're not overwhelming enough to make the rest of the squad worthless. That's your natural stopping point, because the reason has been fulfilled. There's no reason to nerf further.

Likewise:

5 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

if you wanna enjoy single target you go solo ,no whining okay , now thats the way 

If it's about single-target weapons not being good enough, then the nerf stopping point is going to be a bit further than the above situation. But that opens up the possibility of buffing, too, because the point is to close the gap. In principle, that can be done with pushing from either end. Doing it on just one end might not work, but doing it on both can mean you don't have to stress one side as much. You might still have to nerf, but not as much.

And to reiterate:

7 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Becasue when you ask of other toys to be nerfed down its your ego , tame it , its not our job , okay ? 

There are a number of reasons people may ask for nerfs. Personally, I would say that some items can be detrimental to new player experiences. Someone who's been in the game longer probably doesn't have as much care. I don't mind if a mission turns into a walking simulator because I'm focused on rewards. But someone new to the game is more likely focused on the gameplay experience itself. If that experience is getting taken away, they're less likely to stick around; the teeth of pseudo-random rewards has yet to sink in to that new player.

[_LotusPrime_]

Just now, Padre_Akais said:

But you won't because you were invite to do that days ago.
I know this because I posted that invitation.

Correction: I said your arguments were irrelevant to the point of the change first. 😀

And, Strawmen don't have brains— There's a whole song, and everything about that...

just because you personally didnt find my points to be worthy of holding discussion  , doesn't make it objectively so , moving on , posturing guy .

keep your posture lets see whomst ideas are worthy of consideretion for DE :) 

[_LotusPrime_]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

If you're insisting on staying, we hope you'll ignore the "non-existent arguments and 'shtty' memes" and have a worthwhile discussion.

 

eh , i think we know we past that point , im not gonna continue to be hold a level headed response to people that dont deserve it , they make it a numbers and meme war then i say so be it , i'll just throw blank but true statements anyway , 

it doesnt matter anyway becaue all i get it manupulative speech or narrow sided views and what makes balance when they have no clue what theyre talking about 

and also this doesnt include you , maybe you deserve that level headed response but not towards the other 5 guys or so 

[0_The_F00l]

3 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

its always this ' vague ' enjoyment ?? what are you talking about ? be specific , you think people frigin care if youre bring twin kohmak or a kuva zarr , give me a percentage of the people that care about that sh*t , gimme a poll , than i'll settle down , you talk like youre not even playing warframe im honest here 

Oh that's simple enough , when i play with a loadout of my choice, i actually want to use it. And while i can do that in solo , playing solo in a co op game is rather boring too. 

I would much rather prefer DE gave me better matchmaking (which i have requested multiple times) so that I can play with like minded players and not be paired with those that enjoy bypassing most of the game.

I really can't give you a poll just like you can't give me one , can you ?

Also you may want to calm down a bit   your "main" is leaking through i think.

[_LotusPrime_]

8 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I

If it's about single-target weapons not being good enough, then the nerf stopping point is going to be a bit further than the above situation. But that opens up the possibility of buffing, too, because the point is to close the gap. In principle, that can be done with pushing from either end. Doing it on just one end might not work, but doing it on both can mean you don't have to stress one side as much. You might still have to nerf, but not as much.

And to reiterate:

There are a number of reasons people may ask for nerfs. Personally, I would say that some items can be detrimental to new player experiences. Someone who's been in the game longer probably doesn't have as much care. I don't mind if a mission turns into a walking simulator because I'm focused on rewards. But someone new to the game is more likely focused on the gameplay experience itself. If that experience is getting taken away, they're less likely to stick around; the teeth of pseudo-random rewards has yet to sink in to that new player.

If single target buffs was a thing DE would doble down on it , we have been long asking for base damage buffs for various single target but it rarely happens , hell even some snipers have aoe now (not now but starting 3 years ago ) 

and its not guranteed singel target gonna receive buffs , this is wishful thinking , if you give DE the idea that if they JUST  nerf outliers that everythings gonna be fine afterwards we are still left dead with weapons that hardly do any damage without any crazy warframe buffs ... and theyre single target so even if they few of them do damage they dont cover the area (coughs and laughs i mean of course they dont because tehyre not aoe) 

Dont get me wrong i wish for single target buffs too but like .. people are not pushing hard enough for that to receive DE's attention and thats what i was referring to with the QoL changes not being mentioned by most . its relevant in that sense that while some aoe launchers may seem '' disruptive '' (to whom and in what way exactly but whatever moving on i was just entertaining the notion that even if it was disruptive) , this game still has deep seated issues that needs to be solved before even we touch launchers and aoe in general 

That was what i was hinging on , that people are prioritising wrong things (imo of course , if they wanna keep their mr fodders and thats their agenda ... at that point i dont know what to say)

 

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

I really can't give you a poll just like you can't give me one , can you ?

 

well i cant give you a poll but realistically if you would pull everyone you play with in pubs and in trade chat , region chat , questions chat , clan chat , most people reliably will say ' eh i dont care what people use as long as it gets thru the mission' thats the response you will get and everybody can try this , very few people go into this weird mindset of dps race 

[Tyreaus]

1 minute ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

im not gonna continue to be hold a level headed response to people that dont deserve it

Then don't respond at all.

I'm going to loop back to what I said before about QOL threads. Boiling it down, it's a self-reinforcing loop: if they get discussion, they get more attention, leading to more discussion on that topic. That happens in microcosms, too: if you're responding to some memes, you're generating more attention, meaning you're going to get more memes because that's the "topic" of the microcosm.

As an example, you replied to my first statement. That's what I'm responding to in kind. The rest of my statements? You didn't respond to them, so I have nothing more to say. That means the response you get is on this, on the psychology of online discussion, not on what you might consider a level-headed, worthwhile topic of AoE weapons in Warframe.

You forge the responses you see by what you give attention to. That doesn't mean it's easy, but it does mean it's on you.

[_LotusPrime_]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Then don't respond at all.

I'm going to loop back to what I said before about QOL threads. Boiling it down, it's a self-reinforcing loop: if they get discussion, they get more attention, leading to more discussion on that topic. That happens in microcosms, too: if you're responding to some memes, you're generating more attention, meaning you're going to get more memes because that's the "topic" of the microcosm.

As an example, you replied to my first statement. That's what I'm responding to in kind. The rest of my statements? You didn't respond to them, so I have nothing more to say. That means the response you get is on this, on the psychology of online discussion, not on what you might consider a level-headed, worthwhile topic of AoE weapons in Warframe.

You forge the responses you see by what you give attention to. That doesn't mean it's easy, but it does mean it's on you.

no , it gets discussed not because of catch 22 but becasue of how collectively people prioritize things , its not automatic , its collectively a concious effort (a bit manipulated topics by nerf heads for sure , not everytime ) , and thats where im at , people's prios are not necessarily mean for the betterment of the game , nerfing lauchers wont solve it , qol changes dont receive much attention when they need to be becasue monkey brain , yes absolutely , does that mean its reinforced automatically ? no .

and im calling people to not be monke and be human and see things that actually affects the game rather than whats the hot drama topic , its a call for thought 

 

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Then don't respond at all.

I'm going to loop back to what I said before about QOL threads. Boiling it down, it's a self-reinforcing loop: if they get discussion, they get more attention, leading to more discussion on that topic. That happens in microcosms, too: if you're responding to some memes, you're generating more attention, meaning you're going to get more memes because that's the "topic" of the microcosm.

 

no , im ridiculing meme format as being in  an intellectual disccusion element because it is anti intellectual , memes are funny and all and speaks to the primitive brain sure but they dont belong in affecting a game or .. bigger things for that matter if you ask me . 

im teaching and giving invitation for a thoughtful process not monke see monke do . 

[Tyreaus]

With all the above said:

26 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

If single target buffs was a thing DE would doble down on it , we have been long asking for base damage buffs for various single target but it rarely happens , hell even some snipers have aoe now (not now but starting 3 years ago ) 

[Trimming the rest since my response seems to address it all]

The problem with trying to buff single-target in particular is where the problem space lies. Usually, the AoE issue comes up in lower-level, Starchart-like missions - the sort of places everything falls over from a stiff breeze. That limits our solutions: more damage doesn't change anything at that level, and tacking on AoE transmutes the identity of those weapons. Consider how you might feel if the Bramma became a single-target weapon. Not happy, right? That's because it has certain properties you fancy. Single-target weapons are a similar thing, so to remove the single-target nature is to commit the same sort of error.

There's some buffs, like implementing more universal punch through, that can help for sure. But they don't close the gap in full. You need a little something from the other side.

In terms of DE's response, it gets even more complicated, because the single-target rationale is one of multiple. They aren't considering just that reason, but many other reasons, like the part about AoE being overwhelming. To them, some issues are more important than others. Some reasons better than others. Some fit with their design vision, some don't. Single-target buffing is one solution for one reason behind one problem. And then you have to factor in the attention and controversy side that plagues QOL threads, which could very well bugger up calls for single-target buffs too. As simple as it might seem to us, who might focus on one reason, DE's working with a lot of moving parts.

17 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

no , it gets discussed not because of catch 22 but becasue of how collectively people prioritize things , its not automatic , its collectively a concious effort , and thats where im at , people's prios are not necessarily mean for the betterment of the game , nerfing lauchers wont solve it , qol changes dont receive much attention when they need to be becasue monkey brain , yes absolutely , does that mean its reinforced automatically ? no .

and im calling people to not be monke and be human and see things that actually affects the game rather than whats the hot drama topic , its a call for thought 

I think you're framing things a little erroneously.

Ultimately, discussions like this surround people wanting the game to be better. The controversy is that people don't agree what that looks like. And that makes sense: a better Call of Duty doesn't look the same as a better Dynasty Warriors. But it's not always clear what a better version of...anything even looks like. Is a better Call of Duty one that leans more in the futuristic side? Historical combat? Is Dynasty Warriors better with fantasy leans, even pulling from IPs like Zelda, or is it better with historical focii? And those are pretty clear cut bases: Call of Duty is definitely a shooter and Dynasty Warriors is definitely a horde hack-n-slasher. Something like Warframe starts to amalgamate, taking up all those vague questions.

And, like I said, the controversy generates attention. Something simple like fixing pet behaviour fits within pretty much everyone's vision of a better Warframe. There's no controversy, so there's no discussion. It's quiet head-nodding. I mean, when everyone agrees, what else is there to say other than "I agree"? And if someone else has already said that, why repeat them?

12 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

no , im ridiculing meme format as eing in  an intellectual disccusion element because it is anti intellectual , memes are funny and all and speaks to the primitive brain sure but they dont belong in affecting a game or .. bigger things for that matter if you ask me . 

im teaching and giving invitation for a thoughtful process not monke see monke do . 

As I mentioned elsewhere: it's descriptive, not prescriptive. You might have a particular intent behind those sorts of replies, but the fact of the matter is that your responses are still going to forge the sort of discussions you get in reply. If you're going to give a bunch of attention to the memes and forgo everything else, that's what you're going to get. Intent doesn't really change that.

[_LotusPrime_]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

With all the above said:

The problem with trying to buff single-target in particular is where the problem space lies. Usually, the AoE issue comes up in lower-level, Starchart-like missions - the sort of places everything falls over from a stiff breeze. That limits our solutions: more damage doesn't change anything at that level, and tacking on AoE transmutes the identity of those weapons. Consider how you might feel if the Bramma became a single-target weapon. Not happy, right? That's because it has certain properties you fancy. Single-target weapons are a similar thing, so to remove the single-target nature is to commit the same sort of error.

There's some buffs, like implementing more universal punch through, that can help for sure. But they don't close the gap in full. You need a little something from the other side.

In terms of DE's response, it gets even more complicated, because the single-target rationale is one of multiple. They aren't considering just that reason, but many other reasons, like the part about AoE being overwhelming. To them, some issues are more important than others. Some reasons better than others. Some fit with their design vision, some don't. Single-target buffing is one solution for one reason behind one problem. And then you have to factor in the attention and controversy side that plagues QOL threads, which could very well bugger up calls for single-target buffs too. As simple as it might seem to us, who might focus on one reason, DE's working with a lot of moving parts.

 

well , then i say , why they continue to release years after years new weapons with aoe compartment , like the new incarnon , cedo , zymos , if they really think aoe overrides the purpose of single target they wouldnt release stuff like mausolon and necramech ultimate ability like theres no tomorrow. 

Single target has to offer utilities that aoe dont necesarrily offer  and thats where qol changes come in , otherwise either there is no need to hold a single target or that they have to really pack a punch or enormous utilities that compensate for their lack of area cover and if somehow DE decides 'okay aoe overrides the value of single target's existence' then ... i guess we are off to corridor shooting and warframe abilites till they get nerfed too 

all becasue not enough people push for qol changes so that single target have a compensation in the matter.

mind you im still talking this from a headspace of ' i dont care about dps race in pubs' , im entertaining the notion that if there was some aoe - single target arms race , in a bubble or a vaccum lets just say , not that i think these considerations are in practise matters but yes i would still vote for buffing single target weapons because thats what makes them playable in player's consideration , not if DE gets rid of all aoe or some sht. 
That would be a coercion , not consideration of choice by what the item offers in and out itself.

 

 

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

As I mentioned elsewhere: it's descriptive, not prescriptive. You might have a particular intent behind those sorts of replies, but the fact of the matter is that your responses are still going to forge the sort of discussions you get in reply. If you're going to give a bunch of attention to the memes and forgo everything else, that's what you're going to get. Intent doesn't really change that.

I ignored 3 ppl already becasue of their lack of respect and ridiculing , and i didnt continue to give them voice to their madness by further replying them , they can speak on their own but they wont be entertained on my behalf so that is always positive , and internet is free space you know , if everyone wants to decides to go monke sht , i cant say or do much becasue we are human at the end of te day , we have limits on what we can affect (well unless youre a mod or an isp provider) . I'll do my best on inviting thoughtful process but if that fails then its whatever , i could say i tried , its fine.

[Rakosta_Kai]

32 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

just because you personally didnt find my points to be worthy of holding discussion  , doesn't make it objectively so , moving on , posturing guy .
 

I don't find your points relevant because they aren't relevant to the subject in question.
That's about as objective as it gets...
 

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

keep your posture lets see whomst ideas are worthy of consideretion for DE :) 

With respect, I find your assumption that DE is going to view your feedback on an, as-yet, un-released update to a mechanic (that they have spent the last 8 or 9 months fielding complaints on...) to be wildly optimistic. 

Thank you for worrying about my posture though as poor ergonomics is a silent killer.

[_LotusPrime_]

33 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

 

And, like I said, the controversy generates attention. Something simple like fixing pet behaviour fits within pretty much everyone's vision of a better Warframe. There's no controversy, so there's no discussion. It's quiet head-nodding. I mean, when everyone agrees, what else is there to say other than "I agree"? And if someone else has already said that, why repeat them?

 

people can voice on what type of new ai behaviour it could be and even that itself is its own whole thing , people can just drop comments for their approval , even gifs and whatnot , meme game , theres tons of things people could be doing ,

and i maybe trying to reach an audience that doent even know me , bit by bit you can convince some peeps to see other side of the isle instead of ' NERF EVERY AOE IT DISRUPTS WARFRAME AHHHHH ' ,

you know there are other more calm but nuanced perspectives that need attention too and we need to get it known more somehow and im not an expert at inviting thoughtful process but also my little comments can start a chain of more critical thinking and thats all i need

, i probably cant convince every nerf-head , thats not possible yeah for sure but its a try from my hand and i think some people appreciate that too because not a lot people want to brawl in these forum against the nerf mob you know.

[Tyreaus]

24 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

well , then i say , why they continue to release years after years new weapons with aoe compartment , like the new incarnon , cedo , zymos , if they really think aoe overrides the purpose of single target they wouldnt release stuff like mousalon and necraech ultimate ability like theres no tomorrow. 

Be careful not to mix up DE's reasons with that of another person. Remember that my initial point was that people give reasons, which leads to certain caps on where nerfing goes. DE doesn't necessarily agree with all of those. And they may have caveats as well. Reasons can be very complicated, after all.

For example, take the reason I mentioned about AoE being overwhelming in a squad. That only become the case with AoE of sufficient size, damage, and ready availability. Something like the Laetum doesn't have the size; the Cedo the damage; the Mausolon the ready availability of its big boom. Necramechs themselves are limited to certain missions.

And that's if DE agrees with that reason. There's many other reasons, plural, and many other caveats, to consider in the broad scheme.

24 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Single target has to offer utilities that aoe dont necesarrily and thats where qol changes come in , otherwise either there is no need to hold a single target or that they have to really pack a punch or enormous utilities that compensate for their lack of area cover and if somehow DE decides 'okay aoe overrides the value of single target's existence' then ... i guess we are off to corridor shooting and warframe abilites till they get nerfed too 

As I said, the buffing side only goes so far in certain instances. Something like QOL of single-target weapons would be part of a more comprehensive solution. Take the recent Wukong changes: better damage on his 4 and the return of the range extension are, for our intents and purposes, QOL-like. But that alone doesn't fix anything; it's part of a package.

That packaging also happens when calling for buffs. It might be QOL to ask for some fixes to pet AI. It gets a bit more than just QOL when you add in survivability, thirteen new mods, extra skins, etc. That can mean people are pushing for QOL changes - like this - but they're grouped together into something bigger.

2 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

people can voice on what type of new ai behaviour it could be and even that itself is its own whole thing , people can just drop comments for their approval , even gifs and whatnot , meme game , theres tons of things people could be doing ,

And people do that. But, by comparison, controversial threads get all that and the controversy that generates bona fide discussion. It's relative.

Plus, like you say:

5 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

you know there are other more calm but nuanced perspectives that need attention too and we need to get it known more somehow and im not an expert at inviting thoughtful process but also my little comments can start a chain of more critical thinking and thats all i need

It's not always obvious to everyone what to do. The controversy makes it easy: you reply to what you disagree with your reasons and debate and so on. When you agree and want to give it more attention...you're supposed to post a meme? Upvote? Especially considering forum rules can consider some of that off-topic or spam, it's not always as clear how to make something get attention. Even I'm mostly spitballing from an armchair psychologist POV.

9 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

and i maybe trying to reach an audience that doent even know me , bit by bit you can convince some peeps to see other side of the isle instead of ' NERF EVERY AOE IT DISRUPTS WARFRAME AHHHHH ' ,

If you're trying to reach an audience, you need to listen - carefully. Like I said, people have many different reasons for asking for any change - nerf, buff, whatever. If you're collecting them all under the same umbrella, you're less likely to reach anyone. If people don't feel like they're listened to, they're not going to be extra likely to listen to you. Tit for tat and all.

And, also:

11 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

, i probably cant convince every nerf-head , thats not possible yeah for sure but its a try from my hand and i thinl some people appreciate that too because not a lot people want to brawl in these forum against the mob you know.

Your rhetoric about calling them "nerf-heads" and "the mob" aren't helping either. On a generous angle, that kind of rhetoric makes it harder to understand you. From an objective standpoint, I'm having to parse through your writing to sort out your opinions from your more factual statements. It's more work, and makes it more difficult to dissect and understand your core argument. Notwithstanding any language barriers.

But it also means you're disparaging your interlocutors. If someone is yelling at you, calling you stupid among an assortment of other monikers, are you going to be more or less likely to listen to them? Consider that you've blocked 3 other people over this sort of thing. Maybe, from a logical standpoint, that sort of thing shouldn't matter. We should just be ignoring all that rhetoric and getting to the meat and potatoes of the issue. But from a pragmatic one, it does matter.

There's a saying, "you attract more bees with honey than with vinegar". If you're wanting to reach people, you gotta extend the olive branch, not try to hit them over the head with it.

[_LotusPrime_]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Be careful not to mix up DE's reasons with that of another person. Remember that my initial point was that people give reasons, which leads to certain caps on where nerfing goes. DE doesn't necessarily agree with all of those. And they may have caveats as well. Reasons can be very complicated, after all.

For example, take the reason I mentioned about AoE being overwhelming in a squad. That only become the case with AoE of sufficient size, damage, and ready availability. Something like the Laetum doesn't have the size; the Cedo the damage; the Mausolon the ready availability of its big boom. Necramechs themselves are limited to certain missions.

And that's if DE agrees with that reason. There's many other reasons, plural, and many other caveats, to consider in the broad scheme.

 

theyre making aoe more conditional , yes i know that but making it so that for example it affects only 4 units at a time is overkill , like you just said this has to have a lot of careful consideration in it instead of 'NERF EVERY AOE IT DISRUUUUPPZZZZ ' because believe it or not there is a group of fringe but locally decentrilized mob in here that defends all nerfs to this game without giving it any caveats or giving calls for compensatation buffs , they are really be there trust me , its not just an imagination , theres a reason why most people outside this forum tends to not lay comments on this site becasue we have a mob situation here , the nerf mob , as ridiculous as it sounds yes they are here 
 

 

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

As I said, the buffing side only goes so far in certain instances. Something like QOL of single-target weapons would be part of a more comprehensive solution. Take the recent Wukong changes: better damage on his 4 and the return of the range extension are, for our intents and purposes, QOL-like. But that alone doesn't fix anything; it's part of a package.

That packaging also happens when calling for buffs. It might be QOL to ask for some fixes to pet AI. It gets a bit more than just QOL when you add in survivability, thirteen new mods, extra skins, etc. That can mean people are pushing for QOL changes - like this - but they're grouped together into something bigger.

Tyreasus , i dont know your point here , i mean sure maybe in some cases threads may give into some better calls for qol changes but you know thats not the case 95% of the time. 

Generaly what gets attention is either too much buffs or nerfs with no systematic changes or systematic change suggestions or similar of that sort.

and i wish people were to see what betterment for thegame instead of hyper focusing on this one new thing that ' disrupts' , to ask the question why you think it disrupts ? maybe its because they are limited ways to make some random weapon work in high levels in this game , maybe not everything is  wukong , wisp or mesa , maybe there are 10 readily available warframes that need some love .

for my small point yes i didnt meant to write wukong in one those endgame endurance frames but in the sense that he is useful for completing tedious missions and titania is along there too , not that they can rival octavia or ash in surviability or dps in high levels , but that theyre at their own superiority in terms of being capable in regular chart , to go mission faster etc. in misions where repetition is the game not numbers.

 

and before even it being adressed ; yes i know anything can ' work ' in lvl 9999 as long as you have a weapon that is min maxed to hell and you can reliably shield gate along with rolling guard , first it didnt use to be that way , second you are still min maxing your weapon for that matter so .. not every weapon can reach that stage even if you were to force it , 

but then again the sample person would say ' oh but the balance isnt determined by 9999 levels ' okay but what it is based on then ? fissure missions ? i guess if someones only concern is completing or chilling in fissure missions with randoms that just wanna get the reward and get out , and you want other randoms to forcefully sit you 15 minutes straight because you want to .. ?? i suppose thats its own problem , you can chill with your friends with single target but most people just wanna open those relics soz you know .

yes i know im speaking to a ghost right now but those are the talking points so and i m adressing them before they even throw that at me 

also just because one guy makes lvl 9999 easy with banshee doesnt mean most people have time , patience nor neural stamina to sit through and continoually abuse shield gate , we have people dying to 30 level eximus so , just saying some niche can happen doesnt mean that frame is 'fine' ,i gave banshee as an example even tho she has lot of utility riht now , maybe just ditch her 4th and replace it with some other usefull thing but , people are giving arguments such as ' frost is not bahhd cuz he has armor strip on 4 ' yea maybe he has that but only if you build no survivability or any utility mods on him (remeber the 8 mods limit , you dont remeber that dont you )  but just to reach a number while his snow globe isnt exactly the size you want for the mission ... 

frost and hyroid is not okay , just because few people can carry them with good weapons to 9999 doesnt mean they dont need reworks , and their poor position needs more attention than this knee jerk reactionary position of 'aoe is disruptive' when melee was the king for 8 years.