Warframe Powers And Mechanics Post U14

[PsycloneM]

Yep. I'll discuss this in the bug forums.

[Jeerome0406]

Master PsycloneM, I need your brain power. For mine is too weak for this problem.

 

Scenario:

Nova using M Prime. 200% more damage to target.

 

Rhino using maxed Roar: 114.5% more damage

 

Banshee using Sonar on target's head: 1,145% more damage

 

Ember with maxed Accelerant: 572.5% bonus to fire damage

 

Headshot on grineer: 200% (Right?)

Target is Level 1 Butcher

 

Weapon of choice, http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Vectis/t_30_20000000_131-6-5-132-2-5-133-5-5-137-1-10-138-7-5-143-3-3-150-0-10-159-4-5_150-8-137-14-132-15-143-7-159-9-133-11-131-9-138-11/en/2-0-23/

A Vectis with Max Damage, Multishot, Crit Damage, 180% Viral, and 90% Fire with a Prime chamber +100%.

 

Does this equate to 8367463 damage? You don't have to do all the math, I just need help setting up the problem.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Jeerome0406

[PsycloneM]

Your mind is not too weak for this. First, focus on how much physical damage the level 1 butcher would take before any multipliers from abilities, Primed Chamber, and critical damage are considered:

 

- The Vectis has 70 impact, 61.25 puncture, and 43.75 slash damage unmodded (175 total).

- Serration and Heavy Caliber each increase this damage by an additional 165%.

  

base damage x ( 1 + 1.65 + 1.65 ) = physical damage

 

- Use that expression to calculate the value of each physical damage component.

- Use the butcher's armor and resistances to calculate the final damage of each component.

 

 

For elemental damage, use the physical damage (before resistances) to calculate each component:

 

175 x ( 1 + 1.65 + 1.65 ) x ( percent bonus ) = elemental damage

 

- The percent bonus is just the sum of the displayed percentages on each mod, so 1.8 for viral, and 0.9 for heat.

- The total heat damage calculated here will be affected by Accelerant. Multiply the value by 5.725.

- Again, use the butcher's armor and resistances to calculate the final damage of each component.

 

 

Add all physical and elemental components, and you'll get the total damage for one shot against a level 1 butcher before any other multipliers are considered.

 

- Primed Chamber will increase this total by 2x.

- Critical damage, 4.4x.

- Headshot, 4x (assuming critical damage).

- Molecular Prime, 2x.

- Roar, 2.145x.

- Sonar, 11.45x.

 

 

Assuming the three ability multipliers stack, and assuming Sonar highlights the butcher's head while inflicting critical damage, the total damage from one shot calculated in the previous step will be multiplied by each individual factor.

 

- With Split Chamber, you have a 90% chance to fire an additional round: effectively doubling the damage.

 

 

That should be it. I always test abilities solo, so I haven't witnessed how Molecular Prime, Roar, and Sonar in combination affect weapon damage. I'm assuming they stack, but I could be wrong.

[Jeerome0406]

True, I could but I was on my way to take my Calculus final, and I was being lazy, hoping for you to do it, xD

 

Hmm. Well might as well try, oh and yes they do stack.

 

Here goes nothing.

 

70 * 4.3 = 301

61.25 * 4.3 = 263.38

43.75 * 4.3 = 188.13

 

301 * 0.75 * (1-(5/305)) = 222.05

263.38 * 1.50 * (1-(5*0.5)/(5*0.5) +300) = 391.805

188.13 * 0.85 * 1.25 * (1- (5*1.15)/(5*1.15)+300) = 196.129

 

175 * 4.3 * 1.8 = 1354.5 Viral

175 * 4.3 * 0.9 = 677.25 * (1 + 5.725) = 4554.51 Fire

 

1354.5 * 1.75 * (1-(5/305)) = 2331.52 Viral

4554.52 * 1.25 * (1-(5/305)) = 5599.82 Fire

 

Added up, 8741.324.

Now, I take that and add up those bonuses right?

Then see what I get?

8741.324 * (1 + 2 + 4.4 + 4 + 2 + 1.145 + 11.45) = 227230.7434

But this is no where near the 8.3 million I saw.

Something is still off, is my math wrong? Maybe the bonuses are multiplied differently.

[PsycloneM]

Since you actually tested this I need to verify a few things.

 

I assume you had a team consisting of Nova, Rhino, Banshee, and Ember. Blind Rage was used for those multipliers that are affected by it. When Sonar was cast, was the butcher's head highlighted, and did you actually hit its head? Was the damage you inflicted critical damage? Finally, did any of you have Rifle Amp equipped?

 

Regarding the calculation, the total heat damage should be increased by a factor of 5.725. Accelerant is a multiplicative damage bonus; it's not +572.5% heat damage of the calculated total, but 5.725x total heat damage.

 

Once the total damage per shot is calculated, the bonuses from mods, headshots, and critical damage should not be added together. A shot that deals 1000 total damage will deal 2000 with Primed Chamber, 8800 with Primed Chamber + Vital Sense, and so on. Individually, Molecular Prime, Sonar, and Roar are also multiplicative bonuses that are applied to the total. What I'm not sure about is how these bonuses interact with one another. This exercise might shed some light on that.

[Jeerome0406]

The butchers head was highlighted, I am not sure if any of the frames had rifle amp, I don't believe so.

I didn't personally test this, but that's what I know of it. And I saw the 8.3 million on screen, I just am unsure how that number was achieved.

The target was definitely a level 1 Butcher.

[CubedOobleck]

It doesn't as far as I can tell. Critical damage is not used in the damage expression.

I ran a very simple test just now.

A bodyshot from my Paris Prime removes about 2/5 of a wardens health, but if I hit the antimatter drop with my arrow it will ohk the wardens.

My parisP has a x4.4 crit multiplier and as you probably know antimatter drop has a x4 multiplier so if it ignored the crit damage from the arrow it would do less damage.

Wardens have ferrite armor according to the wiki so there shouldn't be an advantage from radiation damage and I made sure to hit the floor with the antimatter drop to avoid headshots. I also made sure that the wardens were aware of me to avoid any possible stealth multipliers.

Edited May 7, 2014 by CubedOobleck

[PsycloneM]

The butchers head was highlighted, I am not sure if any of the frames had rifle amp, I don't believe so.

I didn't personally test this, but that's what I know of it. And I saw the 8.3 million on screen, I just am unsure how that number was achieved.

The target was definitely a level 1 Butcher.

 

Is

the source you were referring to? Everyone in the group had Rifle Amp equipped, so that's an additional 108% damage that needs to be combined with Serration and Heavy Caliber.

 

Individually, Molecular Prime, Sonar, and Roar apply a multiplicative bonus to your total damage. I'm assuming that when combined the bonuses are multiplied with one another. Taking into account the four Rifle Amps, I'm calculating roughly 17 million damage against a level 1 butcher. Considering that the absence of Molecular Prime's damage bonus from the second test (corrosive and heat damage) was not reflected in the observed damage value, there does seem to be some odd behavior. Perhaps the ability bonuses combine in such a way that I'm overlooking, or maybe the damage calculation was buggy at the time.

 

Since that video's several months old now, I'm curious to know if that behavior is still present. Until I'm able to observe the interaction of multiple ability combinations, I don't think I can be much help.

 

I ran a very simple test just now.

A bodyshot from my Paris Prime removes about 2/5 of a wardens health, but if I hit the antimatter drop with my arrow it will ohk the wardens.

My parisP has a x4.4 crit multiplier and as you probably know antimatter drop has a x4 multiplier so if it ignored the crit damage from the arrow it would do less damage.

Wardens have ferrite armor according to the wiki so there shouldn't be an advantage from radiation damage and I made sure to hit the floor with the antimatter drop to avoid headshots. I also made sure that the wardens were aware of me to avoid any possible stealth multipliers.

 

Weapons with innate punch-through cause Antimatter Drop's damage calculation to go haywire. Charged shots from bows, Lanka, and possibly others can cause an enormous spike in damage output. Try testing un-charged shots with your Paris Prime, or use a weapon with a high critical chance with no innate punch-through, and see if critical damage is being included in the calculation. 

[CubedOobleck]

Weapons with innate punch-through cause Antimatter Drop's damage calculation to go haywire. Charged shots from bows, Lanka, and possibly others can cause an enormous spike in damage output. Try testing un-charged shots with your Paris Prime, or use a weapon with a high critical chance with no innate punch-through, and see if critical damage is being included in the calculation.

I had no idea, thanks for the info. I'll keep on testing I guess.

[Jeerome0406]

Alright thanks PsycloneM, one more question. When dealing with the calculation against Corpus shields and health, do you use the bonuses for both against their shield and both against their health?

Or the bonuses for shield, once the shield is depleted, the bonuses for health?

[RealPandemonium]

Or the bonuses for shield, once the shield is depleted, the bonuses for health?

One, then the other is how it's supposed to work. Haven't tested it emprirically though.  

[Jeerome0406]

I am getting really weird numbers.

Using an unmodded Sicarus Prime, I got 36 against a Level 4 Corpus Crewman and 17, 31s on his health.

 

I don't even...

[PsycloneM]

Sicarus Prime deals 12.8 impact, 9.6 puncture, and 9.6 slash damage.

 

Against shields:

12.8 x 1.5 + 9.6 x 0.85 + 9.6 = 36.96 ----> 36

 

Against health:

12.8 x 0.75 + 9.6 + 9.6 x 1.25 = 31.2 ----> 31

 

 

Are you saying you saw seventeen 31s, or you saw 17 damage along with 31s? Damage that carries over with a specific set of resistances will be multiplied by a new constant. That constant is the ratio of the total damage with the new resistances, and the total damage with the old resistances. So if I do 100 slash damage to a crewman with 50 shields, the remaining 50 slash damage will be multiplied by 1.25 / 1. That will be displayed as 50 damage to shields, and 62 damage to health. If I do 100 impact damage to a crewman with 50 shields, that's 100 x 1.5 - 50 = 100 impact damage that carries over to health. The damage to health will be equal to 100 x ( 0.75 / 1.5 ) = 50.

 

If your Sicarus Prime deals more damage than the remaining shield capacity on the crewman, the damage that carries over to health will be affected the same way. Record the damage dealt to shields and health in one shot, and see if they make sense now.

Edited May 9, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Jeerome0406]

Once again, my brainbows, I should have thought that out. Thank you for your help, psycloneM, thank you

[Jeerome0406]

Ok there is some serious issues with Hydroids ult, I am getting crazy numbers with max power damage. I might need to take it off and do more tests, but the numbers are really inconsistent. Did you figure out exactly how it works, PsycloneM?

Edit: Took a moment to think about it, and I found the right answer. Heheh, xD

Edited May 10, 2014 by Jeerome0406

[PsycloneM]

What answer did you find?

[Monolake]

l

Do you know if enemies HP formula ( health = (level-base_level)^2 * 0.015 * base_health + base_health ) works for super high levels  - 1000+

 

ie from this video 

the 1400-2000+ enemies have relatively low HP,  more like lvl70-80

[Jeerome0406]

What answer did you find?

Armor mitigation is a thing.

I concluded that (300 * (1 + 1.29)^2 ) * 0.75 (Lancer Lvl1 Mitigation) = 1179.

But here's my problem.

I had to have fought a coupla butches, mostly Lancers, and a couple troopers.

 

I had numbers like this: 

1179, 1030, 786, 943, 698. and 868.

The rest of those numbers were bonkers, could you find where they are coming from?

[Incarmine]

We PS4 people just got U13, and I notice now that my valkyr's hysteria claws have an attack speed of a crack addict. I don't know if it's just my weapon setup or something, but this is extremely welcome and it's also easier to move around while attacking in hysteria. I also love that each attack of the finisher does normal damage, so knocking a lvl 40+ corrupted gunner down with a jump attack and then doing a finisher on it will almost one-hit-kill it. Nice.

[PsycloneM]

Do you know if enemies HP formula ( health = (level-base_level)^2 * 0.015 * base_health + base_health ) works for super high levels  - 1000+

 

That should be the case at all levels. If you're referring to the life bar at the top of the screen displaying what seems to be an incredibly massive shield capacity compared to health, I suspect that's a bug.

 

EDIT: Something's not right...

 

 

I had numbers like this: 

1179, 1030, 786, 943, 698. and 868.

The rest of those numbers were bonkers, could you find where they are coming from?

 

The magnetic damage values I added to the wiki are only maximum values that I've observed. As you're seeing now, the initial damage is not consistent: you might see 300 damage, other times you'll see 200 damage or some other value less than the maximum.

 

300 magnetic damage

Butcher: 300 x 2.29^2 x ( 1 - 5/305 ) = 1547

Lancer: 300 x 2.29^2 x ( 1 - 100/400 ) = 1179

Trooper: 300 x 2.29^2 x ( 1 - 150/450 ) = 1048

 

200 magnetic damage

Butcher: 200 x 2.29^2 x ( 1 - 5/305 ) = 1031

Lancer: 200 x 2.29^2 x ( 1 - 100/400 ) = 786

Trooper: 200 x 2.29^2 x ( 1 - 150/450 ) = 699

 

You could get 943 with 270 magnetic damage against a trooper, although I'm not sure if that's what you actually observed. Would you happen to know which enemies took 943 and 868 damage?

Edited May 11, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Monolake]

That should be the case at all levels. If you're referring to the life bar at the top of the screen displaying what seems to be an incredibly massive shield capacity compared to health, I suspect that's a bug.

 

 

 

In the vid at 1:00 he kills lvl~1400 Heavy with 3 Lanka shots and some procs which deal 4-digit damage (hard to see the exact numbers ~8000)  each shot taking off ~25-30% of hp bar.

Then at 2:20 he says enemies 1-shot themselves by Trinitys' Link.

[PsycloneM]

You know what? Something is definitely off here.

 

 

First of all, it appears the Corrosive Projection armor reduction bonuses are now additive. With four Corrosive Projections enemies have their armor completely stripped, and this can be seen in the video. Considering the build from another video, the Lanka inflicts 250 x ( 1 + 1.65 + 1.65 ) x ( 1 + 0.9 + 0.6 ) x 3.3 x 4 = 35475 electricity damage, assuming a critical damage headshot. This is the exact number that pops up when the level-1442 gunner is shot in the head around 2:16. You can also see that the gunners and lancers lack yellow life bars.

 

That gunner was hit with a viral debuff right before being shot, but this still does not account for the fact that it died in one hit. That gunner should have 700 + 700 x 0.015 x ( 1442 - 8 ) ^ 2 = 21592438 cloned health, and 10796219 after the debuff. The secondary AoE damage from the electricity proc still does not account for the observation.

 

 

Second of all, damage does not scale higher than health; unless of course, the damage formula was changed and not mentioned in recent patch notes. Damage and health scale according to the following expressions:

 

base damage + base damage x 0.015 x ( current level - base level ) ^ 1.55

 

base health + base health x 0.015 x ( current level - base level ) ^ 2

 

 

So it does seem like your assumption is right: health appears to stop scaling beyond a certain level. That life bar showing the massive shield capacity compared to health might actually be the case here. I don't know the cause, or whether a health cap was intended.

Edited May 11, 2014 by PsycloneM

[PsycloneM]

Trinity

 

Energy Vampire will replenish energy in a single pulse should the target be killed during its duration.

 

What I find interesting is that the amount of energy restored does not seem to depend on the number of pulses that have already occurred. I had assumed that if I killed the target immediately after the first pulse, I would receive 75 energy for a total of 100. Instead, the amount of energy restored appears to depend on the remainder of time before Energy Vampire expires.

 

As an example, in one test I had 50 energy prior to using Energy Vampire. With Streamline equipped, Energy Vampire costs 35 energy, and with Intensify a total of 130 energy is restored in four pulses. After three pulses had occurred, I had 50 - 35 + 32.5 x 3 = 112.5 energy (displayed as 112). I killed the target with 4.7 seconds remaining (11.25 second duration). I gained 130 x ( 4.7 / 11.25 ) = 54.31 energy, instead of 32.5 as I originally expected. I had 112.5 + 54.31 = 166.81 energy (displayed as 166) when Energy Vampire expired.

 

Depending on when you prematurely end Energy Vampire by killing the target (which can be calculated for optimal results) it's possible to gain more energy back than you would normally receive.

 

 

Blessing grants the team damage reduction based on the team member who gains the highest percentage of health from the power's regeneration. Blessing's casting animation time has also been reduced.

 

A level-25 charger removes 228 of Trinity's shields with a single swipe. Just to confirm that Link's 75% damage reduction was intact, I activated the power and lost 56 shields from one swipe. 1 - ( 56 / 228 ) ≈ 0.75.

 

I allowed my health to drop to 242 out of 682. From the patch notes, Blessing should grant me 1 - ( 242 / 682 ) ≈ 65% damage reduction for the duration. Another swipe from the charger removed 80 shields this time around. 1 - ( 80 / 228 ) ≈ 0.65. Everything checks out.

 

How do Link and Blessing interact? I allowed my health to fall to 242 again, and this time I activated Blessing along with Link. I lost 20 shields, which automatically indicates that the damage reduction from Link and Blessing stack. 1 - ( 20 / 228 ) ≈ 0.91. For a multiplicative stack, 65% from Blessing and 75% from Link would produce 1 - ( 1 - 0.65 ) x ( 1 - 0.75 ) = 91.25% damage reduction.

 

Blessing's damage reduction works as reported in the patch notes, and stacks (multiplicative) with Link's damage reduction.

 

 

I'll continue updating this post with other warframes when I have the time.

[Monolake]

Is the Link damage relay to enemies still 100%? Seems like its lower.

[PsycloneM]

The reflection percentage hasn't changed based on what I'm seeing. Prior to the update, a linked level-25 charger would transfer two instances of 76 impact damage in one swipe. In my last post, I mentioned that a similar charger would remove 228 shields from Trinity: ( 76 + 76 ) x 1.5 = 228. After the update, a level-25 charger still self-inflicts the same amount of damage.

 

Disregarding Link's damage reduction, it might seem like the reflection percentage is lower in this case. However, the damage that's transferred is not equal to the damage Trinity receives. It all depends on the damage type, and the resistances of the linked target. So while Trinity takes 228 damage to shields, the charger only takes 76 + 76 = 152 considering chargers are neutral to impact damage.

 

Another way to test this is to use a weapon that deals consistent damage and can harm the user. Shoot an enemy with said weapon, allow your health to get a low as possible, cast the Link + Blessing combo and shoot yourself when linked with a similar enemy. These two damage values should be exactly the same.

 

 

Banshee / Nyx / Hydroid

 

Sonar's duration has been modified from 10 / 12 / 16 / 18 seconds to 10 / 15 / 20 / 30 seconds. You cannot activate Sonar while the power is still in use. Unfortunately, Sonar does not end should all marked targets be killed. You essentially have to wait the full duration in order to recast, unlike Nyx's Chaos, or Nekros's Terrify. I suppose this was unintended.

 

Silence's duration has been modified from 5 / 8 / 12 / 15 seconds to 15 / 18 / 22 / 25 seconds. The energy cost has increased from 25 to 75. Silence's AoE travels with Banshee, and any enemy who enters the field is momentarily stunned. Affected enemies are deafened, and will not react to gunfire, alarms, or death screams. However, any enemy outside of the field can still potentially see you. Therefore, it's best to use this power in tight corridors when enemies do not have you in their line of sight.

 

Absorb, Sound Quake, and Undertow are now toggle abilities. 

 

Absorb: Costs 25 energy, drains 7 energy per second. I suspect the threshold damage has been modified to factor in how long the ability has been active. No damage is inflicted if I just run to an enemy, use Absorb, and immediately end it without absorbing anything (they are still knocked down).

 

EDIT: It turns out the minimum damage does depend on how long Absorb has been active. At max rank, Absorb's minimum threshold increases by 200 damage every second. The calculation seems to require duration to be rounded down. So as an example, if Absorb lasts 5.5 seconds, the minimum damage will be equal to 200 x 5 = 1000. I would like to determine the minimum damage gain for all other ranks, but unfortunately I don't have any extra Absorb mod cards at this time.

 

Sound Quake: Costs 25 energy, drains 12 energy per second. Aside from this change, Sound Quake's old mechanics still seem intact.

 

Undertow: Costs 15 energy, drains 2 energy per second. Despite being a toggle ability, you can still cancel Undertow by holding a movement key.

 

With hotfix 13.3.1, both the activation cost and drain rate are affected by power efficiency mods. So as an example, +55% power efficiency with Streamline and Vespa will reduce Absorb's activation cost to 13.75, and the drain rate to 3.85 energy per second.

Edited May 21, 2014 by PsycloneM