"War"frame or "Farm"frame

[_LotusPrime_]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

 

But games are supposed to be based ON SKILL. 

 

i need to hard disagree here , first off there is no presiquite for something to be called a game , we generally call proggramms that runs on these simulations that we 'vaguely' know of as video games , for example to a species that dont know of our social codes , they wouldnt understand at first what a game means or what it means in a proggrammed form specifically , we do have a very specialized brain after all.

Second , in my subjective opinion , games are first ' supposed ' , supposed is an important word here because it is very subjective , to be fun first .
For some games , this is thru skill check 

 Skills differ as you mention in your post , if you ask a jaded strategy war player maybe soulslike isnt really hard but just a reaction timer check or resource prio check , im strawmanning but do you see my point? 

ultimately , consumers decide what is a 'fun' to them as a game , well as long as they can have a choice in that anyway .

[Felsagger]

11 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

- Don't try to be smart

You missed the sarcasm. 

11 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

- Immediately "tries to be smart"

I'm not trying. I already have an education. 

11 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

You know, sometimes you enter a thread you haven't read since the beginning and stumble upon gems like this. One of more positive features of the forums.

Sometimes, I'm restrained. Some members here needs good insults telling them the truth in their face. But I'm not here for it. Life will teach them. 

[_LotusPrime_]

4 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Sometimes, I'm restrained. Some members here needs good insults telling them the truth in their face. But I'm not here for it. Life will teach them. 

i don know felsagger , here you are not really restrained at all , from outside it looks like you just want to say bad things to strangers here , under the guise of 'hard truths' , this could be a euphemism too for all i know but i wont dig that hole in here.  

[Felsagger]

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Truthfulness is lost when delivered in an abrasive fashion, people tend to not want to listen.

But he's right. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

It is for action games usually, but it obviously doesn't really work in Warframe forever! Special attacks can usually be dodged although there are some old holdouts that have terrible telegraphs.

But when games depends on spell casting and circuits of power creeping then that throws away skill. Warframes are supposed to address the levels in a more vertical fashion like Lucio. This degree of freedom may give more opportunities to warframes. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I think that the thing is that even if you converted all of the enemies to fire dodgeable projectiles, you'd still end up getting hit a lot in this game because it's also not structured like skill based games where you're given a chance.

Their number closes the window of opportunity for dodging. But again, warframe needs more ways of dodging the enemy WITH SKILL not with temporary invincibility. The power fantasy approach throws away the authenticity of a military force that may pose a real challenge. 

The tenno needs to get their ass beat. The tenno needs to know his place and the enemy should be fearless when they are greater in number. The AI here in the game resembles the PS2 era. At least some passover is needed over the AI, weapons of enemies, types of enemies, their initiative, the military accuracy, their level of aggressiveness and their reinforcements. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

In Returnal, its possible to get hit from behind.. It's also your fault. It means you let something flank you. Otherwise, you can actually see when each enemy is going to attack and they don't do it all at once. It's still one of the hardest games to come out in years. How would you make a dodgeable system in a game with random hordes, then why would it matter when you have the ability to become invisible? Why would smart a.i. matter if I can vortex a crowd into a ball? The a.i. literally can't smart it's way around the things we can do anyways. 

This game needs instagibing and oneshot'ing the player so the player learn some skills instead of being an armored tank that casts spells every three seconds. 

The A.I. can restrict the warframe power/tenno powers/ Drifter powers so the player are in the same ground with the enemy using normal weapons. These could be special enemies. 

The player gets way too pampered in this game. He/she needs his cheeks clapped few times. The game of position, priority, preservation and preference matters. Games are supposed to pose some challenge on certain circumstances. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

They can barely balance weapons, let alone introduce new a.i., remove all of the gear cheese and introduce new gameplay mechanics like dodgeable projectiles instead of relying on number bloat that would make it possible to turn Warframe from a gear based game into a skill based game. Those things that never happened in Warframe will almost certainly never happen in Warframe? I'm really curious, I know you spend a lot of time railing against this game and how it has developed so like.. Is there any part of it still in place now that you actually do like? They're not going to remake this game into what you want when they can't even go back to remake stale old game modes.

This game IS NOT about balance at all. 

This game is about TACTICS and STRATEGY. There is always preparation. That's why we mod things. The problem is that the enemy doesn't have the resources to stop the power creeping like artifacts that cancel powers, reduces energy acquisition and nullify tenno/ drifter powers. 

The enemy needs technology. We are way too powerful in this game. It's ridiculous. At least the enemy SHOULD BE smarter applying countermeasures against warframes. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

The game design from a skill based perspective is broken through to the core, is there something else you like about it at all though?

Simply give the enemy pylons to cancel player powers similar to excavation orbital drops. Add enemies such as capital ships with a barrages of artillery. Teach the tenno that enemy reinforces drastically when they are beaten down by Warframe/ Tenno/ Drifter. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I like to play this to surf around blasting stuff, make weird builds and things like that.

The meme game is always fun. But expert players wants game modes that are truly challenging. Again this should be optional. People increases in skill and perception. This game should house those players too throughout options. 

 

Simple. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

It's kind of fun to just crush with a bubble gun that fires so fast I get complaints from console players lol. This is more like break time from games like Ori or Returnal that feature ninja gameplay action than it is real ninja action but it's okay. I feel like if you're really holding out for them to do those things though, you're probably better off playing something else while you wait..

I do that all the time. Now I don't play many games since I'm into other things. I play in rare occasions. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I like to play games because I have to try and be smart all day and it is tiring.

In chess you have more probabilities to be smart than Warframe. Even a flea can play and win in warframe. 

29 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Have you tried Returnal yet? :)

Yes. It's pattern recognition and some good old school skill. The concept is good but the story, character and game design sucks deep ass. It's not bad from a game perspective but the lore and characters are ugly and distasteful. 

[Felsagger]

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i need to hard disagree here

You are free to do so. 

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

, first off there is no prerequisite for something to be called a game

Sorry but there are. We have rules, goals, competition and duration. 

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

, we generally call proggramms that runs on these simulations that we 'vaguely' know of as video games , for example to a species that dont know of our social codes , they wouldnt understand at first what a game means or what it means in a proggrammed form specifically , we do have a very specialized brain after all.

Capacity and quality of immersion happens when some sort of skill is tested. We need to know our boundaries, limitations and our faults. Games are based on COMPETITION of a certain particular skill. 

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Second , in my subjective opinion , games are first ' supposed ' , supposed is an important word here because it is very subjective , to be fun first .
For some games , this is thru skill check 

This is a VERY important subject that would produces a good DOCTORAL thesis on perception, proprioception, kinesthesia. What is the science behind the word FUN? It's not that fuzzy as many people believe. 

Skill IS the purpose of any type of game. There are many skills. Games selects a finite set of these skills. 

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

 Skills differ as you mention in your post , if you ask a jaded strategy war player maybe soulslike isnt really hard but just a reaction timer check or resource prio check , im strawmanning but do you see my point? 

What you said here makes sense. That's true. 

43 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

ultimately , consumers decide what is a 'fun' to them as a game , well as long as they can have a choice in that anyway .

That's correct too. I can't disagree or argue against. 

[Felsagger]

25 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

i don know felsagger , here you are not really restrained at all , from outside it looks like you just want to say bad things to strangers here , under the guise of 'hard truths' , this could be a euphemism too for all i know but i wont dig that hole in here.  

There are forum rules and code of conduct in this forum. Terms of service we signed. 

Some users here deserves a good old fashioned clean German insult but that would be mean, vitriolic and toxic. 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, xXFlippyXx said:

this is a very narrow and flawed statement

According to you. 

 

1 hour ago, xXFlippyXx said:

I've tried to type more but i've deleted it five or six times because the scope always got out of hand. Just not a very smart thing of you to say 

The truth hurts. 

It is what it is. 

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

You have zero clue what a graphic engine is. 

Don't worry. You will know until you use one. 

I'm not the one who gives the most generic answers when asked about something specific. So you do you.

[Felsagger]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not the one who gives the most generic answers when asked about something specific. So you do you.

I don't spend my time explaining theory, information or construct an argument with someone who writes comedy or fiction on a gaming forum board. 

 

If you want to be a comedian, be one. You are good on that department. If you want to be a fiction novelist writer, start writing, no one stops you. 

If you want to make intelligent posts, that is if you are interested, then you need evidence, analysis, links, comparisons, descriptions and common sense. Either way you are free to post anything you want under the forum rules. Enjoy your freedom. 

[cute_moth.npc]

9 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Yes. It's pattern recognition and some good old school skill. The concept is good but the story, character and game design sucks deep ass. It's not bad from a game perspective but the lore and characters are ugly and distasteful. 

Wait, how can you say the game design sucks while also calling it good old school skill and not bad from a game perspective? I'm confused. Where does it go wrong for you?

[Felsagger]

Just now, cute_moth.npc said:

Wait, how can you say the game design sucks while also calling it good old school skill and not bad from a game perspective? I'm confused. Where does it go wrong for you?

Very easy. I spoke about design in terms of aesthetics. The game artistic values such as appearance of weapons, character and bosses are horrid. I despise it. 

In terms of game mechanics such as responsiveness, dodging, strategy memory skill the game is great. 

 

I hope this makes it clear. 

[cute_moth.npc]

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Very easy. I spoke about design in terms of aesthetics. The game artistic values such as appearance of weapons, character and bosses are horrid. I despise it. 

In terms of game mechanics such as responsiveness, dodging, strategy memory skill the game is great. 

 

I hope this makes it clear. 

That's fair. It's a ruined alien world with a gloomy, desolate aesthetic so it just maybe doesn't look how you want it to. I kind of like it, although it's not the prettiest game out there. 

Personal tastes are fine ^^

[Felsagger]

38 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

That's fair. It's a ruined alien world with a gloomy, desolate aesthetic so it just maybe doesn't look how you want it to. I kind of like it, although it's not the prettiest game out there. 

Personal tastes are fine ^^

Game structure is good but there are lots of wasted opportunities here such as the cooperative game. That game is parkour Warframe with guns done right but there should be better guns and more movement abilities. 

The perfect game is Titanfall 2 campaign and Titan 2 frontier. Other games that does exactly what Warframe is doing with the hordes but better is Starship Trooper extermination. 

Warframe should improve the horde farm mode. There are games following this route such as Titanfall 2 frontier horde mode. Warframe IS ABOUT THE farming and IS ABOUT the tower defense game in escence. But Warframe IS NOT DESIGNED AROUND COOPERATIVE parameters. It could be but not encouraged. 

Titanfall 2 is the perfect horde mode in frontier. Sadly warframe IS NOT this. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I don't spend my time explaining theory, information or construct an argument with someone who writes comedy or fiction on a gaming forum board. 

 

If you want to be a comedian, be one. You are good on that department. If you want to be a fiction novelist writer, start writing, no one stops you. 

If you want to make intelligent posts, that is if you are interested, then you need evidence, analysis, links, comparisons, descriptions and common sense. Either way you are free to post anything you want under the forum rules. Enjoy your freedom. 

So you cannot actually explain it since you dont really have a clue what it does.

19 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Game structure is good but there are lots of wasted opportunities here such as the cooperative game. That game is parkour Warframe with guns done right but there should be better guns and more movement abilities. 

Other games that does exactly what Warframe is doing with the hordes but better is Starship Trooper extermination. 

I cant recall the last time I saw Rico or Dizzy bullet jumping and crashing down on hordes of arachnids with massive hammers or swords. So no, Starship Troopers is not a game that does it better since it doesnt play the same as WF. Just as Vermintide, KF2, Fortnite or Darktide arent better than WF since they dont bring the gameplay WF does. Are they bad games? No not at all, they are great games when you look for that type of horde slaughter. And for Starship Troopers, it is more like a tower defense game or a lite-builder defense game like Fortnite than WF.

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

20 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Warframe should improve the horde farm mode. There are games following this route such as Titanfall 2 frontier horde mode. Warframe IS ABOUT THE farming and IS ABOUT the tower defense game in escence. But Warframe IS NOT DESIGNED AROUND COOPERATIVE parameters. It could be but not encouraged. 

Titanfall 2 is the perfect horde mode in frontier. Sadly warframe IS NOT this. 

The past discontinued Raids/Trials (max 8 player missions) were kinda designed around cooperative parameters, but the community couldn't handle it, along with other reasons why they are discontinued, such as BugFrame. Some random Warframe players still have issues using the data mass or interacting with the side consoles to open the duo-gate (door) in normal missions, even today.

I agree this is a potential flaw with Warframe's general game design, but the community seems inclined to enjoy it because it's more mindless than true teamwork. That referenced video of Titanfall 2 is more complex than Warframe, with its generic gameplay mechanics, imo. Different kinds of games attract different types of audiences, too.

However, even if you persuade DE to take this risk and follow this game design route you proposed, they would need to abandon some current and future projects, along with delaying some other side-projects. They would also need to completely rework the basic past normal missions of the game too.

Ideally, it may seem like a good solution to you, but the game is already so old and already made of layers of various types of content, that DE will most likely just poorly implement what you are proposing because they are unfamiliar with such a system and end up most likely failing the Warframe community even worse.

It would be more practical and realistic to just start all over a completely new game project, such as a completely other game, such as Soulframe per se.

Bashing DE and Warframe itself to become something that is "too late" to happen is unconstructive. 

Others might have argued, "This is Warframe, not some other game" mentality; however, their implied conclusions are realistic. I think if you want to enjoy playing a video game, you shouldn't be playing Warframe, you should try out another game because you currently seem to be both frustrated and exhausted from Warframe, atm.

 

[Felsagger]

48 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So you cannot actually explain it since you dont really have a clue what it does.

High school baiting and this type of trolling is old. 

If you want to continue being a comedian and a fiction novelist, carry on with your posting habits. Sorry but I can't take you seriously anymore. 

 

[Felsagger]

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The past discontinued Raids/Trials (max 8 player missions) were kinda designed around cooperative parameters, but the community couldn't handle it, along with other reasons why they are discontinued, such as BugFrame. Some random Warframe players still have issues using the data mass or interacting with the side consoles to open the duo-gate (door) in normal missions, even today.

Then the community is the one to blame for the boring game they are getting. Warframe became a boring average lackluster. It needs something. Players are leaving the game because nothing significantly happens in it. Other games provides more fun because of the novelties in them. 

Cooperative games in Titanfall 2 and Starship Trooper are good examples of coordination, planning and survivability using skill, wits and planning ahead. In that game the team can get overrun while in Warframe four meta players could stay 6 hours toying with high level enemies using all types of power casting circuits.  

The community wanted power fantasy. That's what they got. The result? A boring game. 

 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I agree this is a potential flaw with Warframe's general game design, but the community seems inclined to enjoy it because it's more mindless than true teamwork.

 

If they community asked for bread crumbs, that's exactly what they are going to have. That is true. 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

 

That referenced video of Titanfall 2 is more complex than Warframe, with its generic gameplay mechanics, imo.

 

Sorry but that claim right there is false. 

Titanfall 2 movement is incredibly tricky, complex and advanced. It can't be compared with Warframe. 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Different kinds of games attract different types of audiences, too.

In a Peer to Peer game you expect cooperative game play. Why should I play a game online then? If Warframe is not designed around cooperative game play then there is no point on making it peer to peer or online. Solo missions should be the way, in other words a single player game with three other warframes as bots. 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

However, even if you persuade DE to take this risk and follow this game design route you proposed, they would need to abandon some current and future projects, along with delaying some other side-projects. They would also need to completely rework the basic past normal missions of the game too. Ideally, it may seem like a good solution to you, but the game is already so old and already made of layers of various types of content, that DE will most likely just poorly implement what you are proposing because they are unfamiliar with such a system and end up most likely failing the Warframe community even worse.

 

That's why I stopped playing Warframe for a big while. For cooperative games I am looking forward to Starship Trooper and playing again Titanfall 2 PvE Frontier. 

 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

It would be more practical and realistic to just start all over a completely new game project, such as a completely other game, such as Soulframe per se.

A game that will probably end up being lost in a saturated Soulsborne market since we already have outstanding great games such as Elden Ring, Bloodborne, Sekiro and further future games such as Chrono Odyssey. 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Bashing DE and Warframe itself to become something that is "too late" to happen is unconstructive. 

Who is bashing them? I'm simply saying that Warframe IS NOT a game designed around cooperative elements. It's a contradiction to play a game where you can simply play solo. The internet feature of playing with other players is then irrelevant when an online game should be a cooperative. Warframe is a PvE game, at least you expect some degree of cooperation against foes. 

11 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Others might have argued, "This is Warframe, not some other game" mentality; however, their implied conclusions are realistic. I think if you want to enjoy playing a video game, you shouldn't be playing Warframe, you should try out another game because you currently seem to be both frustrated and exhausted from Warframe, atm.

I am not playing Warframe. I took a hiatus of more than six months. 

Warframe missed many opportunities and right now is bleeding players towards other experiences. DE can't adapt fast enough to the ever changing market of technological progress and evolution with the model they overextended for 10 years. Their game got old because DE let it get old. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

44 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

High school baiting and this type of trolling is old. 

If you want to continue being a comedian and a fiction novelist, carry on with your posting habits. Sorry but I can't take you seriously anymore. 

 

Hope you've got plenty of stamina potions to fuel that dodging.

[Felsagger]

Infantilism is a problem these days.