Some Riven Stats as Flat Values rather than Percents could serve weaker weapons better and safeguard from Incarnon wackiness.

[(XBOX)TJM99]

What to I mean by this? Essentially more of what Entropy Burst does for the Supra, adding a flat 20 to your Status Chance.

Also similar is Avenger's +45 Crit chance, Harrow's +50/200 crit chances, or the new additions to Puncture/Cold Procs with +25/+.5x at max stacks. Affects that are added "after" mods.

The problem with %'s is that this is tied to a weapon's base stats. If they're too low, then they mean nothing as a +300% at a base of 5 is only bringing you to 20, failing to make the kind of impact +300% would have for a base of 20.

A new problem however has sprouted from Incarnon Genesis'd weapons, having their base stats increased alongside their High Disposition. Theoretically, flat values are completely detached from this problem. If the Supra was given an Incarnon that beefed its Status chance, then the Augments effective 66% increase (of the Vandal's original 30) is completely unchanged and remains a +20.

To put into perspective, a big winner like the Latrons can see past a +250% Crit chance if Riven RNG blesses you. At their normal ~24%, a +250% crit chance Riven would bring them up to a good ~84% crit, an easy mod away from 100%. With Critical Parallel sending them to ~48% base, that 250% launches them all the way to 168% crit, another mod from going over 200%! Critical Delay and Argon Scope combined would breach 300. Galvanized Scope at max stacks and Critical Delay would breach 400!! And this is just the Base Form, the Incarnon's ~46% starting base hitting 70% with Parallel makes this mod combination skyrocketing towards 600%! Although the chances of maintaining Galv Scope at 5x for this to be consistent is low, the math is still insane.

If the Riven was a flat number, in this case the +60 crit chance gained by a +250%, then the Incarnon doesn't catapult this to 168%, it simply hits 108. Delay brings just past 200 instead of 300, Argon Stacking to make it to 300, etc etc. Keep in mind this is the higher reaches of the Riven's potential, with the lowest ranging around Point Strike's 150% chance, or in flat numbers, +36.

Another benefit is the increased support for lower stat weapons. A +30 is universally consistent, but the % chance that would make it rapidly grows the lower the base chance is, far out of the typical reaches of Rivens. The highest known crit chance is +316.5% and the highest status chance is +189.9% (1.55). If I wanted to make a crit build for the Sporothrix that didn't 100% depend on 3 specific Warframes, 2 Kavats, or an Arcane. I couldn't do it. The max Riven Crit chance is +245%...putting me at 2.45% crit chance. If my Riven gave me +60 like the Latron one does above, Avenger could carry me to 100 and this could be universally applicable to any frame. I wouldn't need an Adarza Kavat either. +60 crit for the Sporothrix?+6000%. For obvious reasons, this would never be a rollable percent for other weapons. +60 is safer and more consistent.

Ultimately, what I describe nerfs the Incarnon/Riven potential without actually nerfing the Riven. I can see this becoming a severely disliked move if Incarnons nerf Riven Dispo across the board, even if the selected perks have no relevance to the Riven's stats. I think this could at least offer something good to the Team's debacle around this as evidenced by the latest Dispo change notes. I also think this could help weaker weapons out better and make a larger difference towards making Rivens fulfill their original intent. Where Incarnons add flat numbers before Mods, Rivens can do the same after them, joining the small (and recently growing) handful of methods that do so now. Given Entropy Burst, I find this to be feasible. 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by (XBOX)TJM99

[Voltage]

Having so many different types of math behind bonuses is dangerous precedent. Your pros are all there and very sound arguments for having it, but the larger issue with Rivens is that there are multiple layers of inequalities between weapons, stats, variants, and all sorts of variables. Critical Delay isn't a flat bonus, but it is a consistent percentage of Critical Chance. As you point out, Rivens can offer vastly different percentages of the same stat on different weapons, and even between different variants/firing modes. 

The thing Warframe needs (and I say needs because this is getting out of control after Kuva/Tenet, GunCO, Incarnons, Archon Shards, etc.) is a massive squeeze of how stats work. You can still have powercreep in the form of layers of modding and pseudo-modding options, but there shouldn't be so many different types of stats that multiply with each other.

Riven Mods should be a more consistent mod in that you don't know what exact stats the mod may have, but you know that a Critical Chance roll is X percentage. To quote myself from a prior thread:

On 2023-07-11 at 4:19 PM, Voltage said:

It's been apparent for the last 7 years that DE doesn't care to make Disposition feel good to engage with. I'm an advocate of removing Disposition altogether. Historically, it has only ever affected weapon usage and performance in a harmful way when there has been an oversight in the way a multiplier works. This happened when shotguns used to have status chance where 100% would force all pellets to proc and Mara Detron and Kohm could roll a specific magnitude status chance to achieve this breakpoint, melee weapons with the way Maiming Strike and Slide Attack Critical Chance behaved as an additive critical chance multiplier, and Scoliac where percentage based range scaled the slide attacks to 20+ meters with 165% from Primed Reach and 200%+ Range from a 2+/1- Riven Mod. Other than those small instances, weapon usage is impacted by things like Kuva/Tenet AoE weapons, Exodia Contagion/ability stat sticks, Incarnon Adapters, etc. If a weapon is overtuned, it's because the base mechanics are, not a Riven Mod, and DE knows this. Kuva Bramma, Catchmoon, Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace, and more over the years have seen inherent weapon changes to adjust their intended landscape of balance (which has gone off the rails at this point as well anyway).

Continuing to try to make Disposition function just degrades the ownership of Riven Mods and getting into them. Incarnon Adapters are likely to cause a nerf to Riven Mods on various old weapons that many people may have previously invested in and enjoyed beforehand. This happens with Prime Access gear, it's happened to Tenet and Kuva weapons, and it's likely to happen here as well. You have to stick out 6 months to a year in Prime Access cycles to see a Disposition "settle in", when it could have been this value from day one and not have any affect on weapon usage anyways. It's entirely arbitrary as it is. Weapon dispositions only affect the flexibility of attributes on a given Riven Mod. Low disposition weapons require a much stricter roll of stats to be worth a slot while a maximum disposition weapon can afford to have some less desireable attributes due to the magnitude of the bonuses.

I rather see a multiplier squeeze where every weapon has a Disposition of either 1.00 or 1.10 (equal to an "S" grade roll on a stat given the weapon has a neutral (1.00) disposition) times their weighted bonus/malus multiplier, and remove the randomized stat bonus of 90% to 110%. This removes "grades", it removes Disposition, and it makes Riven Mods have a more consistent and linear approach to what they are adding to a weapon. A Riven Mod doesn't make or break a weapon. If it does, that's because DE has ignored long-standing balance issues like negative Impact/Puncture/Slash not properly reducing weapon damage and actually resulting in a pseudo status chance bonus due to damage type weighting, the way Faction Damage is calculated, the long list of weapons where CO and GunCO are multiplicative to base damage mods, and other things on specific weapons. 

For example, let's take a Strun Wraith Riven Mod with Multishot on it:

How it currently works:

2+/0-

• [random value between 90% and 110%] * [base Multishot multiplier for Shotgun Rivens (119.7%)] * [Strun Wraith Riven Disposition (1.35)] * [2+/0- weighted bonus multiplier (0.99)]
• Ex: 1.05 * 1.197 * 1.35 * 0.99 = 167.98% ~ 168% Multishot on only a Strun Wraith Riven Mod.

2+/1-

• [random value between 90% and 110%] * [base Multishot multiplier for Shotgun Rivens (119.7%)] * [Strun Wraith Riven Disposition (1.35)] * [2+/1- weighted bonus multiplier (1.2375)]
• Ex: 1.05 * 1.197 * 1.35 * 1.2375 = 209.97% ~ 210% Multishot on only a Strun Wraith Riven Mod.

3+/0-

• [random value between 90% and 110%] * [base Multishot multiplier for Shotgun Rivens (119.7%)] * [Strun Wraith Riven Disposition (1.35)] * [3+/0- weighted bonus multiplier (0.75)]
• Ex: 1.05 * 1.197 * 1.35 * 0.75 = 127.26% ~ 127.3% Multishot on only a Strun Wraith Riven Mod.

3+/1-

• [random value between 90% and 110%] * [base Multishot multiplier for Shotgun Rivens (119.7%)] * [Strun Wraith Riven Disposition (1.35)] * [3+/1- weighted bonus multiplier (0.9375)]
• Ex: 1.05 * 1.197 * 1.35 * 0.9375 = 159.07% ~ 159.1% Multishot on only a Strun Wraith Riven Mod.

How it could work (Let's assume the universal Disposition is neutral at 1.00 for the sake of comparison):

2+/0-

• [Universal Disposition] * [base Multishot multiplier] * [2+/0- weighted bonus multiplier]
• Ex: 1.00 * 1.197 * 0.99 = 118.5% Multishot on any shotgun Riven Mod.

2+/1-

• [Universal Disposition] * [base Multishot multiplier] * [2+/1- weighted bonus multiplier]
• Ex: 1.00 * 1.197 * 1.2375 = 148.13% ~ 148.1% Multishot on any shotgun Riven Mod.

3+/0-

• [Universal Disposition] * [base Multishot multiplier] * [3+/0- weighted bonus multiplier]
• Ex: 1.00 * 1.197 * 0.75 = 89.78% ~ 89.8% Multishot on any shotgun Riven Mod.

3+/1-

• [Universal Disposition] * [base Multishot multiplier] * [3+/1- weighted bonus multiplier]
• Ex: 1.00 * 1.197 * 0.9375 = 112.22% ~ 112.2% Multishot on any shotgun Riven Mod.

Notice the difference in bold. Sure, the second set of formulas results in a lower multishot multiplier for Strun Wraith in isolation, but the amount of Multishot a shotgun Riven Mod offers for any shotgun, no matter if it's the Mk1-Strun or Phantasma Prime is the same. This means in all cases, the outcome is expected, it's predictable, it isn't anything crazy, it means an upgraded version of a weapon benefits the exact same from your mod, and yet it's still valuable to slot. I hate this idea that I'm supposed to be artificially nerfed because I'm using the better version of a weapon. Especially with Incarnon Adapters now entering the scene, this is nonsensical to continue as a charade of "balance". If a multiplier is broken (like the way Melee Range was when it was percentage based) adjust the physical multiplier. This was already done to shotgun status chance, Slide Attack Critical Chance, Melee Range, and Blast Radius.

The current model is just extra maintenance for DE and it has never accomplished anything for the game besides being an annoyance to deal with as a player.