Enemy Difficulty: Suggestions

[Nekomian]

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I don't know why you think operators are a problem here. The only gear *problems* I can see are specters and maybe decaying dragon keys, I honestly don't know why either are still in the game and personally I'd take them out. Necramechs and archwings (and RJ) need expansion, not my fault they dropped the ball on them.

So they're not so much a "problem" as they are a tool to really cheese gameplay difficulty - I was saying these solutions don't really solve that issue. You could scale all the way up to level cap and still just cheese the difficulty with operator, regardless of gear or EHP. The gear listed, like mech, was because those are dynamic spawns - I'm not sure how you'd even account for their expected "power level" in a statistic since the user can just hop in, kill enemies, and hop out before the next round of checks for dynamic leveling are performed on new spawns.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Now, because it's averaged, there might be a low EHP warframe on the squad and a high EHP warframe (I wouldn't use Inaros as an example, he's paper thin these days - unless he was a low EHP example lolz). But just as with regular gameplay, the low EHP warframe will be hiding from the fight and the high EHP warframe will be fighting in the open. Because the high EHP warframe is above the averaged DPS of the miniboss it will be able to tank with ease.

This is another example that doesn't work well in practice - we're assuming the EHP of the frames is static, but there's many dynamic buffs and abilities at play here that occur on casts or conditions (adaptation, rolling guard, arcanes that trigger on hit, etc.). Unless we're taking all of these into consideration at once, and change the level of a boss or DPS done by them on the fly to compensate, it causes issues with the intent of the dynamic scaling in the first place.

This is what I meant by this game just has "too many variables and branching conditions" - yes algorithms and stats can absolutely predict what the scaling should be, but it would be extremely complex and players would still find a way to cheese it (i.e. spawn enemies outside of affinity range of allies to scale them, use things that "trick" the algorithm, etc.). I like the idea of it to tailor experiences to individual players or squads better (or scale the content according to what they can handle), but in practice it would be a nightmare to fully implement.

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Just like Lichs and Acolytes are supposed to. Do you dislike those? I don't see how it's less interesting. It wouldn't mandate builds because it factors in whatever build you currently are running, and also there would be a great variety of possible counters so you wouldn't be able to reliably anticipate what you'd be hit with.

I don't particularly like liches / acolytes because their damage attenuation is just artificially nerfing my equipment - it forces builds to work around this formula, like a kuva hek multishot build with xata's whisper (since it is not factored into the formula) because players will naturally gravitate towards the "easiest build" in a lot of situations. Without it, I've been in situations where the fight is quite literally an entire squad just shooting the enemy for 15 mins straight (or until the weapon clips are empty) because it scales so horrendously. That's not particularly interesting or challenging gameplay IMO, it's just a slog due to artificial limitations. There's no intricate dodging or unique mechanics that require skill, it's just shoot enemy and don't die. I feel like basic counters would just be an equivalent to this, making it more "difficult" but not really addressing this issue.

[CrownOfShadows]

3 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I think you’re approaching this from the wrong angle; everyone can do a No-shield Nightmare, Inaros just excels at it. That doesn’t mean that the game doesn’t want you to try it with others, it’s literally a modifier that affects shields that Inaros and Nidus don’t have and introduces alternative gameplay for Warframes that do have shields

I have to question your idea of what build experimentation is; you say that it’s to make the most optimal one, and I say that that’s only part of the picture and if you’re going to shoehorn yourself into that idea only you’re doing yourself a disservice. The point behind build experimentation is to facilitate making a playstyle for yourself, and it’s not exactly obvious how to do that because a bunch of guides and players giving you the Most Optimal Builds aren’t going to give you The Builds and Playstyles You Want, and in fact you’ll often find that you’ve got a plethora of build puzzles to solve which are presented by something as simple as changing a piece of loadout elsewhere; you say you can only use those builds in level 200 content, then use those builds in level 200 content and when you’re not doing level 200 content, break them apart and make new builds with the components or just make new builds period. The game’s also not stopping you from taking it elsewhere, but it’s not forcing you to do so either

You’re staring at a shed full of all sorts of things to mix and match that may or may not result in absolutely optimal builds but who cares, the end result is fun game which may or may not be challenging depending on how you build and where you take it, and you’re fixating on a few choices because…. what? You discovered those SP-worthy builds and now you wish you didn’t because they fulfilled their purpose and if only the game would undo that, then you’d be satisified. Right now there is absolutely adventure to this game, if you start from the beginning and build up using everything you’ve earned so far instead of trying to work your way down from the top. I don’t know if you were one of those players who got suckered into the idea that the game is grind and that you need to burn 7 mod slots for a “Default build” or that Serration was always equipped first and foremost, but if that’s the case you’ll want to reconsider that thinking

You are once again making way too many assumptions about me. You think I'm some kind of min-maxer but I'm not. You think I'm pigeon-holed into one or two frames or one or two builds but I'm not. You think I don't experiment but I do. You think I wish I didn't discover builds (wtf?) but I'm happy I did. You think I'm 'fixated on a few choices' but you have no clue what you're talking about, don't insult me by trying to explain experimentation and the mod screen.

Builds need to accomplish things, pretending that they don't is completely ludicrous. Playstyle is incidental to the builds - we don't dream up playstyles and then find builds to suit them, we dream up builds and those create playstyles, so this weird playstyle argument is doa.

None of that actually addressed my central point: I can't play at my level. I perpetually play below my level, and that makes experimentation suffer instead of thrive.

You can still play at yours, that's nice. I don't know if you were one of those players suckered into the idea that everything is great and we don't need any challenge to our power or more interesting gameplay, but you'll want to reconsider that thinking.

[CrownOfShadows]

2 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

So they're not so much a "problem" as they are a tool to really cheese gameplay difficulty - I was saying these solutions don't really solve that issue. You could scale all the way up to level cap and still just cheese the difficulty with operator, regardless of gear or EHP. The gear listed, like mech, was because those are dynamic spawns - I'm not sure how you'd even account for their expected "power level" in a statistic since the user can just hop in, kill enemies, and hop out before the next round of checks for dynamic leveling are performed on new spawns.

The enemy spawns would never be based on the operator or a necramech, they'd be based on the warframe.

4 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

This is another example that doesn't work well in practice - we're assuming the EHP of the frames is static, but there's many dynamic buffs and abilities at play here that occur on casts or conditions (adaptation, rolling guard, arcanes that trigger on hit, etc.). Unless we're taking all of these into consideration at once, and change the level of a boss or DPS done by them on the fly to compensate, it causes issues with the intent of the dynamic scaling in the first place.

Mods like adaptation and rolling gaurd, as well as equipped arcanes, would all be factored into the ratings. Taking a warframe without adaptation vs one with adaptation is a huge difference, and while that varies moment by moment, we can easily formulate an average expected EHP simply by the fact that it is equipped.

While the ups and downs of gameplay would of course fluctuate, a strong baseline could easily be achieved - we produce enemies that we know the warframe can handle (and again a gradient is probably a good idea, so even if they momentarily can't handle the strongest, they can still wipe the floor with the majority). Even in the current system, there is massive leeway in this - it's not like we are fine at level 99 enemies and then as soon as we hit level 100 nothing works and we die - this is because there's tons of things about fights - positioning, buffs, airborne dr, melee blocking, los, etc - that factor in. You're right we can't know what all that is in any exact moment in advance, but we don't need to in order to create enemies AROUND the level we need. It's all much more fluid than you're making it sound. We don't have to split hairs and decimal points to get in the ballpark.

I would not recommend updating enemies in real time.

17 minutes ago, Naroxas44 said:

There's no intricate dodging or unique mechanics that require skill, it's just shoot enemy and don't die. I feel like basic counters would just be an equivalent to this, making it more "difficult" but not really addressing this issue.

Partially agree, partially disagree. There is intricate dodging and can be unique mechanics with some of these things, and I'd extend this to other less-trash-mobs like Thrax and Demolysts too. I think all of these are very healthy for the game, because without them... it would just be mobs - and no thanks. The damage attenuation is frustrating, but attenuation is not the pure evil some people think it is either. Some attenuation can be good, but we are too reliant on it for sure.

As for these suggested counters, you're right they aren't particularly skill based, but I would argue that this may depend a lot on their implementation and what your idea of skill is. For example my suggestion there for anti-invisibility would be fairly dodge heavy and arguably require some skill, again depending on the exact nature of it. This is all kinda getting into a discussion on what makes a good boss too, and the nitty gritty of how these guys would actually work, but I will say that having phases where they are weak, especially if those can be intentionally triggered by the players (and not just 'not-invulnerable' lol) can be a good way to add a skill check. If you have other ideas on how to create a skill based encounter, I'm all ears.

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You are once again making way too many assumptions about me. You think I'm some kind of min-maxer but I'm not. You think I'm pigeon-holed into one or two frames or one or two builds but I'm not. You think I don't experiment but I do. You think I wish I didn't discover builds (wtf?) but I'm happy I did. You think I'm 'fixated on a few choices' but you have no clue what you're talking about, don't insult me by trying to explain experimentation and the mod screen.

Builds need to accomplish things, pretending that they don't is completely ludicrous. Playstyle is incidental to the builds - we don't dream up playstyles and then find builds to suit them, we dream up builds and those create playstyles, so this weird playstyle argument is doa.

None of that actually addressed my central point: I can't play at my level. I perpetually play below my level, and that makes experimentation suffer instead of thrive.

You can still play at yours, that's nice. I don't know if you were one of those players suckered into the idea that everything is great and we don't need any challenge to our power or more interesting gameplay, but you'll want to reconsider that thinking.

You’re stuck in one or two builds at level 200, why do you think you’re experimenting? I can make builds for level 200, why do you think I can’t? The whole point of a sandbox game is to make your own fun, which is a goal to attain and solve for, why do you think it’s not?

This concept of “At my level” is absolutely questionable; you’re still only ever using modless gear and basic components to create builds that sit at various levels. You did at the beginning though your options were limited, you did at the middle though you had more options, you do at the end when everything is available, and nothing is superglued into place and we’re not forced into certain ways to play by the end.

I’m one of those players who were suckered into ruining my own gameplay and had to go against the grain with zero help from the community to really discover the other side to this game that no-one talks about

Edited August 22, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(NSW)Greybones]

8 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You are once again making way too many assumptions about me. You think I'm some kind of min-maxer but I'm not. You think I'm pigeon-holed into one or two frames or one or two builds but I'm not. You think I don't experiment but I do. You think I wish I didn't discover builds (wtf?) but I'm happy I did. You think I'm 'fixated on a few choices' but you have no clue what you're talking about, don't insult me by trying to explain experimentation and the mod screen.

Builds need to accomplish things, pretending that they don't is completely ludicrous. Playstyle is incidental to the builds - we don't dream up playstyles and then find builds to suit them, we dream up builds and those create playstyles, so this weird playstyle argument is doa.

None of that actually addressed my central point: I can't play at my level. I perpetually play below my level, and that makes experimentation suffer instead of thrive.

You can still play at yours, that's nice. I don't know if you were one of those players suckered into the idea that everything is great and we don't need any challenge to our power or more interesting gameplay, but you'll want to reconsider that thinking.

🤔 That comment about “Playstyles are incidental” is particularly strange. If you don’t create or search out the playstyle, who’s going to do it for you? The game? With 50+ frames and nearly 1k weapons?

Sometimes playstyles evolve from a build and where it’s taken, but sometimes you want to play a certain way and make the build to facilitate that and take it to the mission that lets it play out accordingly. If you’re thinking that build always comes first and playstyle is secondary, you’re only tapping into like, a portion of what you can do; intermixing between Build First, Playstyle Second and Playstyle First, Build Second gives you the full range

Edited August 22, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Zaghyr]

On 2023-08-21 at 10:29 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

basic enemies based on an analysis of the squad instead of using a gradual leveling system.

Add mini-bosses tailored to the squad, designed to counter the warframes in meaningful ways.

Add debuffs to gameplay.

I think a sort of Loadout Power system could work, but I think it would be better served as the basis for an alternative to Normal and Steel Path star charts. Normal is just normal. Steel Path is massive stat increase, and serves as a Gear check and Theory craft check. And then a new Star Chart, let's call it Nightmare for now. Nightmare is a knowledge and mechanical check. This is where your actual skill is evaluated, not how well you can copy a youtube build. This star chart would have the things you are mentioning and more. Enemies would be scaled to your 'Level', missions would have much harsher fail conditions, traps would actually be traps and can kill you. More field bosses that will mess you up. The game wouldn't hold your hand through missions, you may have to, idk, hack consoles to gain access to parts of the tileset on your map. You wouldn't be able to solve all of your problems with the kuva bramma and sprint through the mission, you may have to, idk, do some damn stealth to get around. Put your aim to the test, put your patience to the test, put your parkour skills to the test. 

Alternatively, things things could serve as a new type of SUPER LONG TERM gamemode. Let's call it True Nightmare. It would be hosted by Teshin, could count towards Conclave. But it would be a star chart journey tied to a warframe. You do not have to do it all in one sitting, you can stop and continue as much as you want. You can only have 1 Nightmare journey active per Warframe at a time, but can have multiple warframe journeys active at one time. While you are only limited to 1 frame, you can freely change everything else at any time like weapons, mods, configs, companions, etc. I've been playing Last Epoch lately and this would be similar to Echoes in that game, where each node has good and bad modifiers, and all of the aforementioned changes would apply in terms of Level scaling, traps, mechanical challenges, etc. 

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2023-08-22 at 9:32 PM, Zaghyr said:

But it would be a star chart journey tied to a warframe. You do not have to do it all in one sitting, you can stop and continue as much as you want. You can only have 1 Nightmare journey active per Warframe at a time, but can have multiple warframe journeys active at one time. While you are only limited to 1 frame, you can freely change everything else at any time like weapons, mods, configs, companions, etc. I've been playing Last Epoch lately and this would be similar to Echoes in that game, where each node has good and bad modifiers, and all of the aforementioned changes would apply in terms of Level scaling, traps, mechanical challenges, etc. 

I actually like the sound of this, I think it has potential, and it kinda dovetails with my calls for better replayable solo quests. One of the strengths of the Circuit imo is that it gets me to play things I don't otherwise, and not just play them but spend time with them and think about them, and this would do that even better.

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2023-08-21 at 2:10 PM, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Difficulty doesn't work well in warframe because we Tenno have way too many tools to ignore difficulty. The only possbile way to add difficult engagment in this game is to limit the player. Which by previous attempts isn't worth the effort.

Right but the point I'm making is that when you have a squad of 4 people you can very accurately identify the tools they have, and instead of limiting the player you counter them.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Right but the point I'm making is that when you have a squad of 4 people you can very accurately identify the tools they have, and instead of limiting the player you counter them.

Wait so instead of designing a boss, you want to design an encounter? An encounter is like Profit Taker. Sargas Ruk would be a boss. 

You know what? Let's try it out this way instead. Let's revise current boss to be more difficult How would you make Phobos Assissination boss hard?

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

On 2023-08-21 at 9:29 AM, CrownOfShadows said:

How to make good enemy difficulty for WF

The simplest solution to make 'good' difficulty would be to first

> Make good enemy behavior.

> Make punishing enemy behavior.

> Make better enemy cohesion.

The more elaborate answer to difficult is

Stationary Target > Moving Target.
Slow, telegraphed attacks > Fast, foreshadowed[Telegraphed] attacks.
Damage Sponges, destroyed by armor strip > Damage evaders, destroyed by knowing how to aim a good.

You know how to make ANYTHING more difficult?

How easy is it to kill an Archon every week? How many steps does it take an end-game player with the correct weapon in a range of ten weapons?

Now ask yourself in earnest, why is it so easy to kill an archon? Because it doesn't do enough damage? Because it gives you so many opportunities to avoid it?
No; Archons are easy because, when it matters, they don't move nearly enough, they don't create distance, they do not set up any traps or draw you into any obstacles. The only 'obstacles' require a kindergarten-level of parkour, so you're not necessarily struggling to reach the boss-- And with time and practice, you're not going to really notice the journey to the boss ever even happened. Archons die because in practical terms, they LET you hit them. They FREEZE up. They HESITATE.

To avoid carpel tunnel, I wouldn't say make a boss tankier. To avoid long-term issues with your motor skills, I wouldn't advocate to make a boss a series of QTEs. But to make a boss difficult, you should NEVER make them EASY. And the more stationary something is, the WORSE it is.

Stalker: Killed on spawn. No pre-invincibility for them to properly load in and prepare to fight. not that they were ever difficult enough to pose a real challenge.

Acolytes: Killed on spawn. No invincibility to get them going. They literally DIE because they're stationary. With impeccable timing and basic aim, you can basically frag a nemesis on the frame their bar becomes vulnerable to damage.

Archons: Kill on spot.

Profit Taker: It's tanky as all hell and this is NOT to its benefit. Dies... ON SPOT.

Boss: Dies. It's because they never run. They never dodge. They have 'invincibility' phases that don't change the fact that the MOMENT they become VERY vincible, they're also not far from VERY dead, either. If they're firing their gun, they're probably not moving around.

I honestly struggled more in the early-game and that was because of the tenno hiding in those relays or whatever. Some would go invisible-- GOOD STUFF.
Some would RUN AWAY. I believe one of the warframes you can challenge will actually jump around. One's a mag and they take advantage of their magnetic abilities to reflect your guns. And the fights were extremely fair, so the difficulty felt organic and it felt correct.

 

tl;dr

Make bosses more mobile.
Give humanoids more acrobatic abilities.
Give large enemies SOME kind of method of throwing off your shots, instead of retaining the boring "Fatso can't get off the chair" syndrome.
Give ALL bosses more invulnerable zones, and give them a spot that you're required to hit to deal damage, but do not make that spot invincible for any reason.

Want difficulty? If not an additional degree of mobility and THREAT on higher levels, how about you make enemies literally impossible to even damage unless you specifically target their weak point? Would solve like 80% of Warframe's balancing issues to make elements less effective in boss fights and powercreep everything in favor of a more skill-based approach, while retaining that those elemental builds are STILL capable of killing the weak, inexperienced small fry.

Small fries should be killed by virtue of them being lesser enemies and therefore only the factors that are designed to make you weaker, before an actual confrontation with a leader, or an ambush. Or a kill squad.

And big cheeses should not be killed in one shot just because of your build. At the very least, they should not be one-shot just because you aimed in their general direction. I loved the TWO bosses in the entire game, with a weak spot that required actually aiming. Vay Hek for example. And that other boss that required you to repeatedly fire at them from behind.

[CrownOfShadows]

10 hours ago, (PSN)jaggerwanderer said:

Wait so instead of designing a boss, you want to design an encounter? An encounter is like Profit Taker. Sargas Ruk would be a boss. 

You know what? Let's try it out this way instead. Let's revise current boss to be more difficult How would you make Phobos Assissination boss hard?

Well, these suggested mini-bosses are more like acolytes than bosses, they just show up, so yeah 'encounter.'  I took a crack at The Sergeant:

-------------------

6 hours ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

The simplest solution to make 'good' difficulty would be to first
> Make good enemy behavior.
> Make punishing enemy behavior.
> Make better enemy cohesion.

Well, I agree with all of this 100%. Enemies actually coordinating to take you down would be scary af.

6 hours ago, (NSW)Free_Aetharus said:

Make bosses more mobile.

Give humanoids more acrobatic abilities.

But this is a harder sell. While I can envision a special parkour-focused boss, which sounds like more of a chase than a fight, I wouldn't want it as a default difficulty mechanism. I say this because....

1. Conclave has taught us very well how much to dislike parkour-focused enemies
2. Teleporting Lichs are extremely annoying to fight

While I do agree that bosses are far too stationary in general, I don't want them sprinting around either. If a boss has special weakpoints that need to be hit, then this is true even more. I'd happily compromise for some bosses that occasionally move quickly, or regularly move slowly, both of which sound healthy.

Edited September 1, 2023 by CrownOfShadows

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Well, these suggested mini-bosses are more like acolytes than bosses, they just show up, so yeah 'encounter.'  I took a crack at The Sergeant:

-------------------
But this is a harder sell. While I can envision a special parkour-focused boss, which sounds like more of a chase than a fight, I wouldn't want it as a default difficulty mechanism.

While I do agree that bosses are far too stationary in general, I don't want them sprinting around either. If a boss has special weakpoints that need to be hit, then this is true even more.

Well, then the balance can be struck between carpel tunnel generator and difficult boss.

Stationary > Mobile if you get too close for too long.
This will slightly discourage melee, but will make primer-melee  slightly more of a struggle with an actually satisfying payoff.

Grounded > Semi-Aerial, but only if the boss is approached from a slightly further, but still 'close' distance. This will be around the maximum shotgun distance.
This will throw a wrench in shotgun plays like Felarx, which are capable of double-dipping on a stationary target, for a free headshot.

In fact, I'd be perfectly happy with the third general balance idea to fit the other two, and even without the other two, this idea above most others.

100% vulnerable bosses > Bosses with semi-invulnerability phases > 100% invulnerable bosses outside of a few key areas.

Armor stripping could have an alternative purpose outside of doing more damage. Armor in my head, or "Super" armor in a more literal sense, not just overguard/poise, could be a thick-plated Orokin Sentinel with an emphasis on hitting the boss in the same place and quickly creating a weak point out of the broken location.

A boss that's constantly in motion may seem annoying, especially if their only, or primary movement is a teleport. It's not so bad when they're not teleporting, just running around.

Bosses that don't have invulnerable phases, but have phases that require you to utilize void damage from the operator and a finisher only performed BY said operator, to transition back into a physical state, for main damage.

In each of those three cases,
Armor nullifies ALL status effects, except maybe impact. Viral cannot poison an opponent if it practically strikes a thick plate. Corrosive could work, but it doesn't bypass armor, it only has bonus damage to orokin plates, but not the orokin inside the armor. It's not the same as overguard, where everything and anything goes, and statuses matter. Statuses may not seem viable, but the moment you expose Achille's legs, viral is still going to pwn him.

If we had a boss that spawned at your extraction, not just where you were when they spawned, the boss would probably be a lot less vulnerable, but that's not the point. The stalker could bullet jump to close the distance between you and them, perform a full combo and possess a block that imitates that defensive mod, but better. Guns in general are not effective. The stalker could be resistant to corrosive and have 'armor' that's more parasitic-biological than metallic and meltable. I'm not taking about "Stalker" stalker, but a new nemesis entirely. Every time they block, they reflect a fraction of your damage back to you including/excluding status effects. And every full-combo they perform on you, which comes out fairly quickly and epically, they'll always roll backwards and retreat.

^ Simple movements. They aggressively approach you with a jump, they perform a combo that you either block, dodge, or somehow die to, which doesn't END with them being stationary or immobile for more than a split second. They withdraw almost instantly. This entire confrontation places emphasis on avoiding THEIR approach and directly COUNTERING their approach when it's made. Giving them certain immunities during a bullet jump will make their approach more of a threat than a "It's over, Anakin!" moment.

Moreover, it's NOT the same as a relay boss, constantly running from you, while spamming any rapid-fire gun at all and using their abilities to keep distance from you.
It'd be okay if that stalker could go invisible, as there's an entire item that can counter that, too.

The third case? Eidolons are underappreciated. They DO have an operator phase that requires you to deal void damage to expose them. But they're such a brief, small, barely acknowledged part of the game that you brush it off as "Just Eidolon Things."

But, if bosses needed to be harder, they don't need to be 100% mobile over 0% mobile, 25% or 75% stationary for the opposite being true in every other moment. They don't need to be constantly on the move. A stalker can swerve and maintain their distance, before promptly slash-dashing at you and taunting you like the scrub he thinks you are. Retreating and mixing up their moveset. If they HAVE to teleport, don't make it like Duviri Stalker's teleport-finisher, but make the direction they approach from entirely unpredictable. Above you for a slam? Behind you? In front of you? Beside you? Only with line of sight, that could be a nice encounter.

And give them an operator's cloak, or something similar? That fight is just a little harder, but the boss is exactly where you know they are; in the same room as you. Sure, a nuke frame could destroy that stalker in other cases, but because of the void cloak, you effectively do NOTHING until the stalker's cloak fails, or until you forcibly disable it. Or just make the cloak closer to permanent and force you to use your operator more. As for armor in that equation... do whatever, whenever. If 12-unmodded pistol shots, or 2-corrosive pistol shots to break through one part of an enemy's armor doesn't seem appealing, we still have options. Plenty.