Please Add More Helminth Armor Strips

[Tiltskillet]

On 2023-10-01 at 10:28 AM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

So far, all the options for armor stripping are coming off subsumed Warframe abilities, not the Helminth itself. Maybe more metamorphosis levels then?

Just to throw something out there...

Relentless Purloinage

Strength: Armor Multiplier x%, Armor Bonus Cap y%

Duration: 10s; Armor Bonus 20s

Range: 10m radius

Drain: 50

"Emit an aura that moves with you, removes enemy armor completely for a short time, and reinforces the armor of you and your allies."

Not strength dependent for stripping, but strength does improve the armor buff and an armor bonus cap. (Just an armor buff, not actually an armor steal.)  Does not require LoS.  Affects all targets, but temporary.

Just a fun and not carefully thought out attempt to fill a niche that other armor strips don't...when I should be studying for a midterm instead.    Doesn't have the range or duration of Terrify, the shield effects of Pillage, the secondary effects of Tharros, the cheap permanence of Seeking, etc, but offers some advantages over each, and is mechanically distinct from all of them.  Ally armor bonus is definitely niche, but interesting.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[Pizzarugi]

11 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Just to throw something out there...

Relentless Purloinage

Strength: Armor Multiplier x%, Armor Bonus Cap y%

Duration: 10s; Armor Bonus 20s

Range: 10m radius

Drain: 50

"Emit an aura that moves with you, removes enemy armor temporarily and reinforces the armor of you and your allies."

Not strength dependent for stripping, but strength does improve the armor buff and an armor bonus cap. (Just an armor buff, not actually an armor steal.)  Does not require LoS.  Affects all targets, but temporary.

Just a fun and not carefully thought out attempt to fill a niche that other armor strips don't...when I should be studying for a midterm instead.    Doesn't have the range or duration of Terrify, the shield effects of Pillage, the secondary effects of Tharros, the cheap permanence of Seeking, etc, but offers some advantages over each, and is mechanically distinct from all of them.  Ally armor bonus is definitely niche, but interesting.

The big problem I see with this is, unless the defense strip is 100%, nobody's going to use a non-strength scaling ability over Tharros Strike or Pillage.

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

The big problem I see with this is, unless the defense strip is 100%, nobody's going to use a non-strength scaling ability over Tharros Strike or Pillage.

Oops, I didn't spell it out.  It's 100% regardless of strength.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[Numerounius]

On 2023-09-29 at 9:17 AM, LittleLeoniePrime said:

If anything we need (more/better) DR on Helminth becaus we have 2 options right now and it's Defy which sucks when infused in other frames and Parasitic armor which isn't great either...

Forgetting about null star. Which is the reason why I use the ability in the first place before everyone hopped on the Neutron Nuke strat that is possible with it.

[LittleLeoniePrime]

1 hour ago, XHADgaming said:

Forgetting about null star. Which is the reason why I use the ability in the first place before everyone hopped on the Neutron Nuke strat that is possible with it.

not really forgetting.. it's just... very unreliable with how good it is at taking your DR away from you if you don't have Molecular Fission

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, XHADgaming said:

Forgetting about null star. Which is the reason why I use the ability in the first place before everyone hopped on the Neutron Nuke strat that is possible with it.

It needs wayyy too much duration which is not viable on all frames. There could be better options.

[Raarsi]

This feels like a symptom of an even bigger issue that armor strip has become far too much of a necessity.

If anything, I'd argue that DE should remove armor strip from a bunch of abilities and have no helminth options for it just to make content challenging and undervalued frames more viable.

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

This feels like a symptom of an even bigger issue that armor strip has become far too much of a necessity.

If anything, I'd argue that DE should remove armor strip from a bunch of abilities and have no helminth options for it just to make content challenging and undervalued frames more viable.

You've put your finger on a problem, but chosen a way to address it that would do more harm than good.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

This feels like a symptom of an even bigger issue that armor strip has become far too much of a necessity.

If anything, I'd argue that DE should remove armor strip from a bunch of abilities and have no helminth options for it just to make content challenging and undervalued frames more viable.

17 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You've put your finger on a problem, but chosen a way to address it that would do more harm than good.

Yeah. If they buffed corrosive to do the same job as armor strip, maybe. But I do feel like offloading it to abilities is healthier for gameplay than just giving more power to weapons.

Taking armor strip away from frames would just mean that only a few frames could really do upper SP well, and would make it so that everyone would struggle mightily in the Circuit where it's even more of a necessity.

[Pizzarugi]

17 hours ago, Raarsi said:

This feels like a symptom of an even bigger issue that armor strip has become far too much of a necessity.

How? There's no way lots of people are doing endurance runs, so there's no reason to need armor strip unless you're using staggeringly weak weapons and/or are lacking modern mods (ex. Galvanized) or arcanes.

[CrownOfShadows]

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

there's no reason to need armor strip

False

[Pizzarugi]

48 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

False

Why? What could you possibly need armor strip for outside of endurance runs? Enemies in SP star chart content are absolutely not armored up enough that you actually need defense strip. And if you do need defense strip, then I suggest you pick up a Kuva/Tenet/Incarnon weapon and upgrade your arcanes as well as your mods.

[CrownOfShadows]

41 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Why? What could you possibly need armor strip for outside of endurance runs? Enemies in SP star chart content are absolutely not armored up enough that you actually need defense strip. And if you do need defense strip, then I suggest you pick up a Kuva/Tenet/Incarnon weapon and upgrade your arcanes as well as your mods.

Depends what your definition of an endurance run is, and the SP has a lot of variance in it. Do you need armor strip (or its equivalent) for the lower SP? No. Once you get to the upper SP you do though. I suggest you run some Circulus or Tuvul Commons without armor strip and then get back to us.

Besides the SP, we also now have the Circuit, and if you don't think armor strip is necessary there then you haven't even played it.

Arcanes and mods don't strip armor 🙄

[Pizzarugi]

11 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Depends what your definition of an endurance run is, and the SP has a lot of variance in it.

Running an hour or longer in an endless mission. If you do endless missions for less time than that, you don't need armor strip.

11 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I suggest you run some Circulus or Tuvul Commons without armor strip and then get back to us.

I have, did fine in them in fact. Never felt the need to have armor strip. If you do, then I refer back to what I suggested earlier.

11 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Besides the SP, we also now have the Circuit, and if you don't think armor strip is necessary there then you haven't even played it.

I literally made it to level cap in SP Circuit multiple times without armor strip. Circuit is absolutely the worst example you could use to say you need armor strip when we have decrees that can turn you godmode. The biggest problem in Circuit is not enemy armor, but whether or not you have CC with which to protect the defense target.

Pro tip: Pick the right combination of decrees. Corrosive and viral decrees should be a priority alongside things that give 2x melee hits, status damage, and status spread, and repeated shots doing increased damage. You get these early and you'll bulldoze the content.

11 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Arcanes and mods don't strip armor 🙄

But they do increase your weapon's damage, thus reducing/removing the need for armor strip. Fancy that!

Edited October 5, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[CrownOfShadows]

18 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Running an hour or longer in an endless mission. If you do endless missions for less time than that, you don't need armor strip.

I have, did fine in them in fact. Never felt the need to have armor strip. If you do, then I refer back to what I suggested earlier.

I literally made it to level cap in SP Circuit multiple times without armor strip. Circuit is absolutely the worst example you could use to say you need armor strip when we have decrees that can turn you godmode. The biggest problem in Circuit is not enemy armor, but whether or not you have CC with which to protect the defense target.

Pro tip: Pick the right combination of decrees. Corrosive and viral decrees should be a priority alongside things that give 2x melee hits, status damage, and status spread, and repeated shots doing increased damage. You get these early and you'll bulldoze the content.

But they do increase your weapon's damage, thus reducing/removing the need for armor strip. Fancy that!

You don't need to sit an hour in SP Circulus to need armor strip. Spend 20 or 30 minutes in there with any frame that isn't nuking or stripping or hiding or otherwise cheesing. Any frame that actually fights enemies needs armor strip.

With the right decrees and the right frame and the right weapons (or the right squad to carry you), yes you can breeze through the circuit. If you find yourself without that magical combo, armor strip suddenly becomes extremely valuable. Refusing to acknowledge the value of armor strip in the Circuit only tells me you haven't played it very much. You think they just added all those corrosive decrees for giggles? Pablo specifically said people needed more armor stripping tools and that's why they were added. But guess what? It's a lottery and you don't always get the decrees you want. There's a reason Xaku is the most valuable Circuit frame. There's a reason why when you play pub SP Circulus there's almost always a Xaku.

Bigger damage is not a counter to increasing armor. That's not how DR works. 🙄

I really can't believe you're really out here saying that armor stripping has no place in WF. It's a very important tool against a tremendous variety of enemies.

Edited October 5, 2023 by CrownOfShadows

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

Running an hour or longer in an endless mission. If you do endless missions for less time than that, you don't need armor strip.

I wouldn't call it mandatory by any means, but it can have a big impact even in quick SP runs.  Outside of long endurance, what I'd say it does more than anything is open up options especially against heavy units.  If I want to use Synoid Heliocor or Sancti Castanas to clear Grineer: no problem.  And it's a godsend for ability damage.  Like the difference between Maim with Terrify vs. without it is almost...day and night, lol.

 

[Pizzarugi]

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You don't need to sit an hour in SP Circulus to need armor strip. Spend 20 or 30 minutes in there with any frame that isn't nuking or stripping or hiding or otherwise cheesing. Any frame that actually fights enemies needs armor strip

I main Revenant. They don't have any damage abilities (well except Reave, but that's too clunky to use reliably), meaning I have to rely entirely on my guns to win.

Again, did just fine in Circulus SP. Get better guns, update your mods, install arcanes.

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

With the right decrees and the right frame and the right weapons (or the right squad to carry you), yes you can breeze through the circuit. If you find yourself without that magical combo, armor strip suddenly becomes extremely valuable.

Kinda ruins the point of a roguelike if you don't get bad RNG, doesn't it?

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Refusing to acknowledge the value of armor strip in the Circuit only tells me you haven't played it very much.

I literally have all of the incarnon genesis upgrades. You don't need armor strip. You need better guns.

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You think they just added all those corrosive decrees for giggles? Pablo specifically said people needed more armor stripping tools and that's why they were added.

The topic of this thread is about adding more armor strip for helminth. Corrosive lost its value as an armor strip when DE made it so it can no longer remove 100%. Yes, partial strip helps, but you're failing to understand that it also provides bonus damage on top.

You have a source that Pablo, the guy responsible for nerfing AoE weapons, said we need more armor strip?

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

There's a reason Xaku is the most valuable Circuit frame. There's a reason why when you play pub SP Circulus there's almost always a Xaku.

And yet I've never seen one.

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Bigger damage is not a counter to increasing armor. That's not how DR works. 🙄

Do you really believe enemies in SP are indestructible without armor strip? You, out of everyone else in the game, really needs to upgrade their weapon arsenal, mods, and arcanes then.

If you literally can't handle 1 hour of Circulus with this weapon, then you need to git gud: https://overframe.gg/build/315630/phenmor/the-devouring-edge-viral-slash-phenmor-anti-armor/

26 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I really can't believe you're really out here saying that armor stripping has no place in WF. It's a very important tool against a tremendous variety of enemies.

With the current state of the game, there's no reason to be doing endurance runs, thus there is absolutely no situation where the enemy's armor is so high that you must have armor strip. If you still think you need armor strip, that says more about you and your weak arsenal than it does the game.

Warframe is a braindead cakewalk. We do not need more armor strip when players are powercrept to hell, back, hell again, and back again.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[Pizzarugi]

21 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I wouldn't call it mandatory by any means, but it can have a big impact even in quick SP runs.  Outside of long endurance, what I'd say it does more than anything is open up options especially against heavy units.  If I want to use Synoid Heliocor or Sancti Castanas to clear Grineer: no problem.  And it's a godsend for ability damage.  Like the difference between Maim with Terrify vs. without it is almost...day and night, lol.

Well I mean, sure you could use it if you wanna make the game even easier and make non-endless missions quicker to complete. If we're talking about completing missions quickly, then we still have frames that can trivialize SP content such as Mesa and Saryn, so you'd probably be better off playing them instead for that purpose.

But the topic is about armor strip being a necessity which is what I'm arguing against. You should be fine using Synoid Heliocor and Sancti Castanas in regular SP missions without needing armor strip. Same with Maim.

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

But the topic is about armor strip being a necessity which is what I'm arguing against.

I agree it's not literally a necessity.  What it does opens up options if I want to use weapons aren't top tier, or that don't have good bleed capability, or if I want to use frames that aren't OP, or do want to play long run endurance, against factions that are armored.  I'd consider "opening up options" to be a vital role in this game with its incredible wealth of build possibilities and incredibly poor balance. 

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You should be fine using Synoid Heliocor and Sancti Castanas in regular SP missions without needing armor strip.

It's possible we have differing definitions of "fine". :P

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

I main Revenant.

LMAO, I knew it would be either that or Ash.

[Pizzarugi]

16 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

LMAO, I knew it would be either that or Ash.

You said frames that don't nuke, armor strip, hide, or otherwise cheese. Revenant is acceptable by your goalpost-moving logic. I could also use Nidus and have similar results.

Now are you going to address anything else I said, or are you going to continue complaining that the game isn't easy enough for you?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[CrownOfShadows]

2 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You said frames that don't nuke, armor strip, hide, or otherwise cheese. Revenant is acceptable by your goalpost-moving logic. I could also use Nidus and have similar results.

Now are you going to address anything else I said, or are you going to continue complaining that the game isn't easy enough for you?

Nah, you're completely unreasonable. Maybe if you condescend some more?

[--Leyenda-yight6]

If we compare an elite spearman (grineer) with a level 180 elite crewman (corpus), the Corpus enemy will die with any type of damage the weapon has, but try to kill a grineer with magnetic or explosion, it eats everything the magazine and it still doesn't reach half life, the armor scales too much at the highest levels, of course this difference is not seen when you put viral and cutting on all your weapons.
All weapons are built around armor, unless you want to specialize them for a single faction.

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Nah, you're completely unreasonable. Maybe if you condescend some more?

I've laid out exactly why armor strip is unnecessary in this game, but all you've done is effectively say "nuh uh".

And you're one to talk about condescending.

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Refusing to acknowledge the value of armor strip in the Circuit only tells me you haven't played it very much.

 

[Pizzarugi]

7 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

If we compare an elite spearman (grineer) with a level 180 elite crewman (corpus), the Corpus enemy will die with any type of damage the weapon has, but try to kill a grineer with magnetic or explosion, it eats everything the magazine and it still doesn't reach half life, the armor scales too much at the highest levels, of course this difference is not seen when you put viral and cutting on all your weapons.
All weapons are built around armor, unless you want to specialize them for a single faction.

It also doesn't help that DE has gone out of their way to make Corpus less desirable to fight. You wanna deal with nullifiers, bog/comba/scrambus units constantly showing up and shutting down your abilities coupled with a large number of their units having CC (shockwave moa, anti-moa, bursa, etc)? I prefer not to, the acolyte Violence is enough of a problem as is. I can bet you anything that if those units didn't exist, people would be farming Corpus instead, because toxin annihilates them.

And on that note, I don't see how viral+slash is an issue to deal with Grineer armor when toxin is the ideal mod to bypass the massive shield pool Corpus have in SP or gas mod for Infested to counter their sheer numbers. Seems like everything's working as intended.