A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[CloudPies]

I'm disappointed in the mod system in that, DE has done nothing to make the mods fair and balanced, everything so far has been bandaids on bandaids, all based on a lacklustre system that only adds additional pointless mods in an attempt to retain our interest.

If nothing else, please at least adopt his melee system!

Edited November 29, 2013 by CloudPies

[fatpig84]

There's actually a simple solution to that. Have Mastery give perks that give no direct combat utility. Possibly even very limited indirect combat utility.

 

So for example, at Mastery 1 you can choose one of:

 

Loot Radar + 10

 

Enemy Radar + 5

 

Open Locked Lockers 10%

 

+10% Stamina

 

+5% Stamina Recharge

 

-5% Sprint Stamina usage

 

+10% Mantling/Ledge Grab speed

 

+10% Weapon Swap speed

 

+10% Scan speed

 

and other fairly limited benefits like this. Someone with tons of Mastery can run forever in circles and ledge-grab really fast and switch weapons really fast, scan things really well, and so on. They don't get any better at fighting.

 

 

Well I can live with that...

But still....

 

Free slots for for life :p

[WhiskeyGolf]

I'm disappointed in the mod system in that, DE has done nothing to make the mods fair and balanced, everything so far has been bandaids on bandaids, all based on a lacklustre system that only adds additional pointless mods in an attempt to retain our interest.

If nothing else, please at least adopt his melee system!

It's not OP's melee system - he lifted it from Remember Me.

 

I don't know about you or OP, but I got into this game to shoot things, not cut them apart.

[Kyte]

It's not OP's melee system - he lifted it from Remember Me.

 

I don't know about you or OP, but I got into this game to shoot things, not cut them apart.

I got into the game for both, but Remember Me's melee system is awful for this.

[evil_m3nace]

Oh dude if this comes out I would want to reset my account again because it makes playing warframe again completely viable

[evil_m3nace]

I'm disappointed in the mod system in that, DE has done nothing to make the mods fair and balanced, everything so far has been bandaids on bandaids, all based on a lacklustre system that only adds additional pointless mods in an attempt to retain our interest.

If nothing else, please at least adopt his melee system!

This is an amazing rework of warframe. While it is adopting the Remember Me style of leveling and reworking, it's so much fun, I would love to see the power up melee that Remember Me has, ask Chris, he played the game.

[Notso]

Very well written, very well thought out - you have my +1. I don't much positive to add, but I do have two problems:

 

1. Where does the removal of mods leave trading? Presumably we will be allowed to trade attachments for weapons instead - but are there similar things we will be able to trade that are used in "side-grading" Warframes?

 

2. How will this affect DE's profits? I don't see any space for Reactors/Catalysts in the new system, and I think we can all agree this is where DE makes a lot, if not most, of their money. Where does this leave mod packs? Will we be able to buy "Attatchment" packs?

[theGreatZamboni]

This is an amazing rework of warframe. While it is adopting the Remember Me style of leveling and reworking, it's so much fun, I would love to see the power up melee that Remember Me has, ask Chris, he played the game.

 

Well it is just adding purpose to the system they are already working on. If you watch the YouTube link in the first post, they are doing exactly what I am talking about. I am adding function to what they show, allowing for the ordering and adjustments of specific animations that net different effects when put together. Again we have people S#&$ting on the idea because it borrows from other games. Remember Me was a bad game, with good ideas. If you can take the positives from a failed idea and retool them to work for your game, that is great. Remember Me was a Frankenstein's monster of a game. The combat was fine, just not as good at the two games it borrowed from: Batman Arkham Asylum and God Hand. The same could be said for most other aspects of the game. But the concept of creating your own simplistic combos that reward you with high fidelity animations similar to a hack and slash game, as well as making using it viable through allowing it to produce more damage output or heal you, is compelling. It expands upon something they are already doing, as I said. To say you don't like it because "I don't like Remember Me", then I don't know what to tell you.

[Demographics]

OP is absolutely correct; Warframe desperately needs some changes done at its core level if it expects to entertain any kind of longevity at all and retain the new players who try it out and then end up drifting--with good reason--back to other games with more depth and better design. I've stuck with it because it's fun enough, but only barely, and because I have faith in the underlying concept and wish that DE changes course and strives to make it the best it could be.

 

I thought the OP was pretty well thought out and was very applicable to Warframe. I hope someone from DE with the ability to influence the game at least gives those ideas some consideration, and sets aside the fact that change is scary in favor of the realization that the game in its current incarnation--again, I am not insulting the players or the game, just pointing out an intuition I have--has very little staying power due to its shortcomings.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Demographics

[1N33DM0N3Y]

The real key comes from what is inside the branches of the tree. Because each tree is pulling from its own point pool, the player is awarded more freedom. Recently Ember’s Overheat was nerfed. The reason being, Scott told us she was not a tank. I’m sorry, but who are you to tell us how or how not to play your game? Especially when choice was supposed to be a centric theme around the game. Choosing the Warframe you like best and building them the way you want. With my skill tree, I put that choice back in the hands of the player. By creating parameters around which the players can alter their powers to their liking, you can assure that no matter what, they will be effective in combat. It also creates real purposeful choice.

 

Thats right DE, who are you to tell us how or how not to play your game !!! This is bullS#&$ by nerfing & destroying Warframes and weapons, my bigges anger is i put so much hours to polarising a lot of Clantech weapons each with 4 -6 Formas and a lot of them are complete crap now since U11.

 

Is this the idea to make your long time player/customer who spend >200 € & 900 hours of playing time happy ?

Edited November 29, 2013 by 1N33DM0N3Y

[1N33DM0N3Y]

Wow the post just execent considered, much appreciated sir

[LordRaine]

I’ve read everything in your OP, and I agree with almost everything in it 100%. I do, however, have two points of contention with you.

The first is with the melee system. I agree with you that it is completely unviable in its current state. The only melee I’ve used that’s even remotely effective anymore is building the Galantine for charge damage and brute force, and then giving it to a tanky frame, typically Rhino, and then constantly using charge attacks. This is, as far as I can tell, just about the only melee build that actually remains moderately effective, excepting using Dual Zorens purely for the speed boost and never attacking with them.

So something clearly needs to be done, because melee is terrible. However, while a stance system with in-depth combos is extremely nice, I don’t actually see it working with the current version of Warframe. My reasoning for this is that Warframe, as it stands now, is a multiplayer online game. Lag will always be an issue, which makes timed strikes a bit dodgy, and even if lag isn't an issue, making it full Devil May Cry is, to me, a mistake, because that’s not the sort of game Warframe is. Melee combat is not the main attraction to Warframe, while combat, particularly melee, is the primary event in games like Devil May Cry, and everything else exists to support that. Trying to make Warframe more like Devil May Cry would be like trying to make a cheeseburger more like a pizza, or a sports care more like a jet plane. There’s nothing wrong with either, inherently, but making it something it isn’t is just going to run against the grain of what it does best. So in that regard we agree; Warframe should not waste time trying to be more like Devil May Cry, but on the same token, I'm hesitant to incorporate timed attacks into the game as a mechanic. I've been in some really laggy rooms, and I'm not sure how well that would work out for the playerbase as a whole in the long run.

However, allowing depth of customization for your Warframe, including the melee combat, is something I fully support. So having read your proposal on stances, and keeping in mind the fact that melee combat must remain simple while also allowing depth of use, I would like to counter with a proposal of my own.

Instead of tying the system into the Tenno or Warframe, tie it into the weapon itself. Weapons start out with little in the way of combos or special abilities, which would accurately represent the low mastery a Tenno has over them. As the Tenno increases their mastery of the weapon, they unlock new options to make use of when wielding that weapon, such as opening up new attacks and combo strings.

This would be managed on a screen similar to yours (I sadly lack the resources to make a sufficient mock-up like your own), where two or three ‘empty’ combo chains would be present, and different strikes could be slotted into those chains. Those strikes would represented on a tapestry similar to the one you have on the right of the screen, and they would be unlocked as the weapon gains mastery, showing the Tenno’s increasing proficiency with that weapon. As they are unlocked, the player can simply drag and drop those strikes into and out of their combo chains, allowing them complete freedom to customize what their melee attacks do. Some strikes would siphon health, deal bonus elemental or crit damage, generate energy on hit, or deal different types of damage under the Damage 2.0 system, such as the Galantine possessing strikes that can deal Slash damage and strikes that deal Impact damage, while other weapons, like the Heat Daggers, would possess strikes that deal inherent Heat damage in addition to any modifications or enhancements a player has made to the melee weapon itself under your proposed system of building upgrades. Furthermore, enhancing your mastery of a weapon allows you to edit the length of the chains to within certain presents, making combo chains longer or shorter as you desire. Shorter chains have fewer strikes in them, but the individual strikes become stronger in accordance with how small the chain is. Conversely, a longer chain can hold more strikes and more effects, but each individual strike becomes weaker the more strikes are added to the chain.

This would allow the game to be further balanced and enhanced by giving certain weapons strikes or attributes that sync well with certain types of playstyles. Daggers, which are something of a joke currently, could unlock strikes in their mastery that completely bypass and ignore armor, making them ideal for assassinating targets and oneshotting heavily encased enemies through their protection, if you’re willing to get close enough to use those weapons against them. Weapons with obvious elemental effects already present could have those built in as a variety of strikes, and these could actually be used to chain off of each other in live gameplay. For example, a melee weapon that has been modified by the player to deal Electric damage that also has inherent Heat damage present in some of its unlockable strikes can be used to create combo chains making use of those Heat damage strikes, that will produce melee that deals Corrosion damage and armor debuffs, because the Heat and Electric damage will chain off of each other into a Corrosion effect.

This also allows weapons to be customizable in how you use them. If you modify your melee weapons to be crit builds, you can support and supplement that by placing strikes into your combo chains that deal bonus crit damage, or have a higher chance to crit. Damage of the same type stacks, so modifying a weapon like a Heat Dagger to deal bonus Fire damage with weapon modifications, and then creating a chain of strikes that also deal Heat damage, would have that damage stacking, creating a strong Fire damage effect overall that would be lethal to anything that doesn’t resist fire.

Now, given the limited number of keys to work with, and that melee needs to remain simple enough that players can use it fluidly in the middle of a fight without having to stop and think about it, we run into some practical barriers with what we can do with it, and how it can work. Your proposal about stances is a solid approach to this, and it is not wrong, incorrect, or bad. In fact, it is quite good. Limiting a Warframe to several stances, and then allowing those stances to do different things, is a good idea, because it allows a Warframe to be customizable, flexible, and viable in melee no matter what they choose.

In that regard, my system is actually not terribly different from your own. However, I’ve played skill based videogames long enough to know that the devil is in the details, and I feel this is a somewhat superior system to your own proposed one. While stances are interesting, they are tied to the Tenno, and not the weapon, which raises the question of what worth Mastery of a weapon has. Would they even have Mastery? The idea of removing melee weapon Mastery entirely and just relying on stances isn’t wrongheaded, but as you yourself pointed out, Tenno are supposedly “masters of blade and gun,” and I’d much rather work with existing systems where possible, rather than tearing them down just for its own sake.

So with that in mind, I would favor the system that tied the ‘stances’ into the individual weapons themselves more concretely, and simplified it somewhat. Now, what exactly would we be looking for in a melee system, as far as controls go? Let’s make a list.

1.) The player needs to retain the ability to simply whip out their weapon and smack somebody for straight and simple damage, smash open a container, or perform a melee takedown/finisher.

2.) The player needs to retain the ability to use Charge attacks, either as a separate kind of attack, or within the weapon itself as a Charge strike that can be placed in a combo chain with other types of strikes.

3.) The player needs to be able to quickly switch between different combo chains, and also be able to go back and forth between guns and melee smoothly and easily.

By aping something similar to Vindictus, where a simple tap of the melee button does a simple, basic attack, but holding the button down allows for toggling dedicated melee on and off, we can actually get away with three different combo chains just using what we have existing right now. The ‘default’ combo chain would just be the player doing what they do now, i.e. tapping a single button. This accesses the first combo chain on the weapon, and the one that would be unlocked by default at zero mastery of the weapon.

However, by holding the melee button down, the player takes their melee weapons out and starts charging them. Now, they could still do a Charge attack by simply holding melee and then releasing it. However, if, ‘while’ charging, they were to click left or right on the mouse, that would access the second and third combo chains of the weapon respectively, which would be bound as Melee+Left/Right Mouse.

Now, holding the melee button and releasing it could be the Charge attack, just as it is now and as I outlined above. However, as I mentioned previously, it is also possible that the Charge attack could be a type of strike that is inherent to the weapon, and can be added to any combo chain you make. Or in other words, ‘Charge’ attacks would be strikes, and you would use them just by slotting them into a combo and then pushing the button to start using strikes from that combo. This would actually allow us to preserve the traits of things like the Galantine, which does greatly increased damage if a strike is a Charged attack. The Galantine could simply be kept at its current basic attack damage, but the Charge strikes that it unlocks would allow it to deal massive damage as part of what makes the Galantine unique.

So does this meet our requirements? I’d say it does. Retaining Charge, either as a push and release or as a strike type inherent to the weapon allows players to continue to use Charge attacks for crit builds or combos, and in fact makes them more flexible than the simple “hold button, get kaboom.” The player can easily switch between their combo chains by holding and letting go of the melee key or button, and clicking left or right to either continue chains or alternate between them. Having three chains as a standard feature for (most) weapons (after all, some weapons may have fewer chains but features that make up for it) gives enough general flexibility that players can build their weapons to be however they like, but the system also doesn’t punish players who don’t want to think too much about it; they can simply slot in a bunch of high damage strikes into their basic combo, and ignore the other two if they like, and there’s nothing wrong with that. And switching between this system and gunplay is as simple as letting go of the melee key and clicking with your mouse or controller, allowing players to seamlessly drop into and out of gunplay and melee attacks, mixing them together and creating their own effective combos and complex elemental and debuff effects by alternating between different combo chains and gunplay with modified and accessorized guns, stacking different strikes and elemental debuffs onto an enemy, and then setting those off with other chains or their guns for various combos.

Furthermore, this would also allow players to control with greater precision exactly ‘what’ types of damage they deal, and when they deal them. Since Damage 2.0, enemies now have complex traits of what affects, them, what doesn’t, and how much it affects them, if it can. Giving players different combo strings that they can dip into and out of, as well as switch back and forth between, would give players the ability to plan ahead and build combo chains that are particularly effective against certain enemy types, such as creating a combo of melee attacks with the Orthos that specifically deals Impact damage, to make it effective against fighting shielded enemies, but then have another combo chain for the weapon geared with Heat elemental strikes and Slash damage strikes, so it can also be effective against flesh.

This system of customizable combo chains tied to weapon mastery actually compliments and feeds off of the Damage 2.0 system, much in the same way the proposed Stance idea does, by allowing players to switch between certain types of damage at-will in the middle of a mission.

Again, I admit that my system is not terribly different from your own, and there isn’t much inherently wrong with the way yours works. They are two different solutions to a problem we both perceive, which is that melee is currently grossly simplified and nonviable on a meta-level. But I would, if pressed, prefer to tie the increasing strength of a melee weapon to its mastery as much as any player-made modifications like with the guns, because then players have reason besides maxing out their own mastery rank to actually increase the mastery of their weapons. Under my proposed system, greater mastery of a weapon allows for greater flexibility in what that weapon can do, and unlocks more and stronger types of strikes that can be mixed in to play off of each other, as well as allowing the player greater freedom in creating combo chains with that weapon, which results in a melee system that has complexity and utility, but is simple and intuitive to actually use in practice, and allows players to play dedicated melee and still hold their own against others who heavily favor guns.

This also has the added side-effect of making it extremely easy to use some weapons that are currently shunned or nonviable, by giving them interesting types of strikes, abilities, and inherent properties and traits, thereby making them, while not overpowering, at least able to compete with other, superficially stronger melee weapons. Ideally, there should be no overwhelmingly compelling argument to use one weapon to the total exclusion of another, because many weapons can be used to fill different niches, or leveraged for different purposes, such as anti-armor, elemental combos, crit strikes, raw damage, knockback, or what have you. And by the same token, there should be nothing stopping somebody from building a melee weapon combo with strikes that they like. It should only be an upgrade to optimize, and not a downgrade to not do so, re: your argument against mods like Serration.

I actually have somewhere I need to be, sadly, because this ran on longer than I expected it to, but I will get to my other point of contention when I get back. Thanks again for making the thread, as I feel it’s quite clear to most people that there are serious issues with the current incarnation of Warframe in how the game works on a fundamental level, and given the current state of things, I’m not willing to believe that DE would fix those problems on its own unless we make them aware of those issues, and the potential solutions they could make use of for those problems.

[Feauce]

I just have one thing to say on the topic of "too complex" or "too much at once"... For one thing, who said everything covered by this suggestion would have to be altered at once? For another... READ THE THREAD TITLE!! The words "complete rework" and "foundation" don't suggest a major, systemic change to you?!

If you don't agree with the premise that the basis of the game is flawed, if you don't think that Warframe should be turned to a completely different direction, one more sustainable and stable than the one it's on now... What the hell are you doing here? Nevermind, I'll answer that for you. You're just trolling. If you came into this thread only to say what a horrible idea it is based on the first third of the OP, then stop typing and go to another thread.

[WhiskeyGolf]

I got into the game for both, but Remember Me's melee system is awful for this.

Precisely. Why make melee an overcomplicated thing like in Remember Me? If you're going to use a melee system, I'd rather we went with Arkham City, which was simple and yet fluid and fun.

[Kyte]

Precisely. Why make melee an overcomplicated thing like in Remember Me? If you're going to use a melee system, I'd rather we went with Arkham City, which was simple and yet fluid and fun.

 

Wouldn't work. Same with AssCreed's. All three systems rely on three things: a) That enemies will politely wait their turn to attack you, b) no external interference and c) few or no enemies that can shoot, and if they can, they telegraph it.

 

I just have one thing to say on the topic of "too complex" or "too much at once"... For one thing, who said everything covered by this suggestion would have to be altered at once? For another... READ THE THREAD TITLE!! The words "complete rework" and "foundation" don't suggest a major, systemic change to you?!

If you don't agree with the premise that the basis of the game is flawed, if you don't think that Warframe should be turned to a completely different direction, one more sustainable and stable than the one it's on now... What the hell are you doing here? Nevermind, I'll answer that for you. You're just trolling. If you came into this thread only to say what a horrible idea it is based on the first third of the OP, then stop typing and go to another thread.

Jesus christ are you so @(*()$ stupid?

Of course we know it's a major change. That's the problem.

And suddenly disagreeing is trolling? Give me a @(*()$ break.

Grow the F*** up and learn to take some goddamn criticism.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Kyte

[WhiskeyGolf]

Wouldn't work. Same with AssCreed's. All three systems rely on three things: a) That enemies will politely wait their turn to attack you, b) no external interference and c) few or no enemies that can shoot, and if they can, they telegraph it.

Ah, right. Good point there. I was thinking more mechanics wise, as Arkham City's combat was a lost simpler in execution than Remember Me, though I daresay it was more fun.

To say you don't like it because "I don't like Remember Me", then I don't know what to tell you.

This is where we differ, OP. Conceptually, I have no problem with Remember Me's system, I just don't think that it really has a place in a game built around shoothing things. *shrug* You're putting words in my mouth here, OP. Something you accused others of doing.

I would rather have something like Arkham City's melee system, which was fairly simple and easy to learn, but quite effective.

I just have one thing to say on the topic of "too complex" or "too much at once"... For one thing, who said everything covered by this suggestion would have to be altered at once? For another... READ THE THREAD TITLE!! The words "complete rework" and "foundation" don't suggest a major, systemic change to you?!

If you don't agree with the premise that the basis of the game is flawed, if you don't think that Warframe should be turned to a completely different direction, one more sustainable and stable than the one it's on now... What the hell are you doing here? Nevermind, I'll answer that for you. You're just trolling. If you came into this thread only to say what a horrible idea it is based on the first third of the OP, then stop typing and go to another thread.

Like Kyte said, the fact that this is a major change is what worries us. There's a saying in English: Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

What OP proposes is a major overhaul that may not actually prove better, and it has been said before that OP could get similar results for less effort by tweaking the system, instead of tearing things down and putting in a new system.

I moved into my last house (well, my parents last house - in Asia it's perfectly fine to live with your parents if you're still single) and we found certain problems with our house. What we did was tweak it here and there and come up with workarounds, instead of just burning down the house and building a new one.

Those of us disagreeing in this thread are doing so because we are concerned that OP wants this game moving in a direction that is not ideal, and as much as OP has the right to his opinion and you have the right to defend him, so we too have the right to present our disagreements.

But it's clear OP isn't interested in listening to or addressing any of the concerns raised. Which is ironic, since people also accuse DE of doing the same thing.

Edited November 29, 2013 by WhiskeyGolf

[BL4CKL1STED]

I think there is a lot wrong with your ideas, OP.

I think this is the flaw with your thinking, and with the thinking of modern game devs in general: You're trying to make the 'perfect' system.

 

Big problem: There is no perfect system. Every system will have its flaws, and we have the ability to choose what game we want to play based on the systems that the game uses. Another problem, sometimes there are design choices that are integral to the game, and removing them would make the game much worse in a sense, at least for certain players. Things such as:

Grind

Samey Builds

Randomness

 

Grind- If you have a successful game, players will grind without realizing that is what they are doing.

While something like level grinding or getting mods to fuse is obvious grinding, there are less obvious kinds of grind that most players don't immediately realize. If there is no grind, there is no point to play. Players will realize that they are not making any progress, and stop playing. Complaining about grind in modern gaming is like complaining that your hamburger has a beef patty between two buns- its an integral part of the experience, having players making progress. Progress leads to needing to make more progress, which leads to grind.

 

Needing to make more progress leads to the need to optimize, and that nicely flows into...

 

Samey Builds- Economics. That's all I should have to say, but, humans are creatures that naturally try to optimize what they are doing. No matter what system is present, there will be those that optimize. You remember WoW? They used to have a much better talent system, but then 'streamlined' it to remove all the talents everyone took, and just make them a part of the class, making it so the only thing that the talent tree was there for was to represent choice. There was a lot of complaining because even though everyone took those talents, they made the whole system more interesting. The whole system had more dynamics that balance changes could have effect on, that they just removed because everyone took them. However, if the balance of talents needed to be changed, there was much more room to do so. Every system will have samey builds, no matter what. If you want to remove 'samey builds', the only thing that you can do is make every player the exact same, and that's the last thing that anyone wants.

 

One thing that helps keep players different from eachother without always restricting the choices they can make is...

 

Randomness- This is integral in the same way grind is integral, though randomness and grind can often be grouped into the same thing. Why is gambling so effective at keeping people paying money? Chance. Randomness. If they remove randomness, there will be less reason to play, and the system as a whole is less interesting. If you KNOW you will get redirection after 100 grineer lancer kills, or at level 10, that may be easy to plan around, but it's boring. Very boring. There is a lot of psychology involved in the decisions of how things drop, while most people just parrot the term Skinner Box but they don't understand how randomness really affects someone's decision making process. The kind of reason I don't play many other MMOs, because they lay out exactly what you are going to get at any level. Randomness keeps things more interesting, even if it may not be fair. Sure, reaching Jupiter with no Redirection might not be fair, but it is more interesting than knowing exactly when and where you are going to get it.

 

Next up, your skill tree idea is fundamentally flawed as well.

Roots, or passive bonuses, being based off of the mastery rank of the account is a terrible idea at every level of player experience.

I like being able to bring a friend who has one set of rank 30'd gear with me on endgame missions, and him still being able to keep up despite not investing the same amount of time into the game. That is a good thing. With the warframe reciving base stat boosts from mastery rank, you effectively make anyone who isn't mastery rank grinding worthless, and making there be more grind. If I remember correctly, grind is something that you said you wanted to get rid of with this new system proposal. I guess you didn't completely think it through. There will be grind.

 

Also, part of the fun of a mod system is bad choices, or at least, non-optimal, but interesting choices. Without those choices being there, players will feel that they aren't as powerful as they could be. That is also a good thing. With bad choices, or non-optimal choices, players can see and recgognize those choices, and then not do them. They're also effortless to fix, since we can just reslot mods. Skill trees are much more difficult to rebuild, especially complex ones with lots of prerequisite skills.

 

So what if it's not optimal? Players don't need to min max to do most missions, aside from stuff like trying to go survival for an hour or past wave 40 on endless defense. Players already build their gear how they want for most missions, since there's little to no point in min-maxing unless they're trying to set a record.

 

You also say that player skill has little to no effect on how well a player does, but I can take an unranked nova into xini and solo till round 25. I know many people who can't. I know many people who can go further, to round 30 or 35.

Player skill always has an effect on how well players can do, and the current system allows for players with good skill to challenge themselves nicely. Try throwing together an 'unleveled mod' build and going into really hard areas, that's a n OPTIONAL challenge, based on the way the mod card system works, for players who are more skilled than others. What kinds of these challenges would you be able to do with your system?

 

If you already understand what un-optimal, interesting builds are, you can skip the next paragraph:

 

Another game that completely screwed everything up for those 'non-optimal' play styles was MapleStory. Before their 'big bang' patch, there was a build for the Fighter/Page class that was based on the way a skill, Power Guard, worked. When you built your character, you got enough stats to make the job change, then only put into health, waiting until you had maxed a skill that increased the boost to health per stat spent into it. And for those of us who played it, we know MapleStory had a really mean leveling curve, taking hours per level from level 20 or so onwards for more casual players. In order to get power guard, you would have to have your character at least level 44 or so, taking much longer to level (unless you used something like drop exchange quests to level up, which you'd have to grind about as much on a different character), but it turns out that this build was effective at killing late-game monsters before the character was even close enough to hit them. Power Guard reflected a percentage of damage back at the attacker, and coupled with super high hp, and percentage-based healing items, a player with that build could also spend a fraction of the price in potions that other players would spend on to kill those enemies and bosses, even though it would take a long time to do so.

 

I'd rather have games that have potential for clever uses of mechanics such as that, than one where everything is laid out in a tree and have no room for exploring odd, un-optimal choices, or in other words, emergent solutions. A skill tree is basically saying "we don't want our players creating emergent solutions for the problems we face our players with", If you are arguing about POTENTIAL, then your system throws all the potential of emergent systems out the window, and removes much more potential than it creates.

 

'Not all mods are created equal.'

 

And I also want to throw your Ogris example right back at you: It's an un-optimal, emergent solution to "How do I hit someone on the other side of a wall with a rocket launcher, when if I aim it at the ground, the explosion won't reach?"

While incredibly specific, the fact that a solution to that problem exists is a good thing.

 

Next, I want to throw some poop at your loadout/attachment system.

While I like the idea of attachments, first, it doesn't fit the kind of game warframe is.

Second, it's basically a gutted version of the existing mod system.

Third, it would make the grind more annoying for players, even if it is 'reduced'.

 

First part should be obvious. Attachments are better suited for competitve games, where there is a need for a tradeoff for every possible piece of gear that a player can use, and having very carefully crafted gameplay that relies on proper gear balance. Warframe is a game about becoming the most overpowered space ninja, and wouldn't gain as much from a system tailored for trading off one part of one stat for another part. Ex, Mag Capacity and Reload Speed - While there are mods that increase capacity/reduce reload speed, nobody uses them because they effectively do nothing. In warframe, surviving an encounter with an enemy is rarely decided on if you have a few bullets in your magazine, there are a lot of options that you have when out of ammo, such as a jump-slide kick, dodging, or melee, as well as there always being a plentiful number of enemies to kill, so just being able to dispatch that one more isn't that big of a deal. On the opposite side, In an FPS Game with a quick TTK (Time-To-Kill) when the outcome of an encounter can be decided on having an extra 5 bullets in your magazine after already killing a few enemies, then such a modification would actually do something.

 

Second is self explanitory, but I'll explain more. The current mod system is better _because_ it doesn't restrict mods to specific slots. Mods costing something more than just owning it also makes the system more dynamic, and players can spend Forma to reset/polarize the slots. There's little reason with your system to even consider 'Forma' as an option, since the only way to 'upgrade' weapons with a reset would be to increase their base stats, as there's little other that could be done, save from completly removing the option to use certain attachements until the item has been 'prestiged' enough times, and both of those options would suck for players more than what exists now. Also, what benifit would catalysts provide? Right now, almost all of the design of the upgrade system reinforce eachother. It seems you picked a number of systems that you just thought you liked and mashed them together, without thinking of how they would actually affect eachother. It is also further gutted by removing the ability to have two 'similar' mods at the same time, since you would only have one magazine slot, one barrel slot, etc, rather than kind of formless arbitrary mods the way we have now. This is another thing that would remove Potential for 'un-optimal, interesting' builds. The current mod system also has the advantage of allowing mods to be crunched and used to power up other mods, which ties me into the aspect of grind of the two systems:

 

Third, while maxing a 10-level mod takes a lot of cores/duplicates, it is doable, and many have maxed a few of those mods. Having one of those mods ranked to 6-8 is normally enough, so player's aren't forced to grind unless they feel they absolutely need that slight damage boost for a much increased investment. The good thing here is players can choose how much they want to grind already. With your system, we'd have to grind mastery, grind bosses/missions/alerts for blueprints, spend our materials/credits on our attachments in order to build/buy them, rather than other items, and also wait for them to be built. While the grind is currently mostly 'optional', and happens automatically as enemies are getting killed and dropping mods, and still doesn't restrict who players want to group with based on mastery levels.

 

And on your 'fight lab' - I think that is a terrible idea. Games like Devil May Cry, and the complex fighting systems and potential for mastery have a place. That place is not in warframe, just like attachements.

Melee works in warframe because it is simple. Press melee, attack, hold melee, charge. Anything beyond that is the player themselves controlling the action. Run+Crouch+Melee: spin, Jump+melee, falling strike, WallRun+Melee, leapin strike. There's already enough to work with to create your own 'combos'. The fight lab doesn't really fit, because players already have a lot of control over how they fight with melee, and a much simpler solution would work much better, an alt melee button, like an alt fire button, and 'Emergence' can take care of the rest. Players will find combos themselves, rather than relying on some overly complex deterministic system to dictate what can or can't happen. Simple rules often lead to much better, more complex 'super systems', rather than one overdesigned system. 

Without good balance, that naieve, overdesigned system can add a lot more problems than it solves. Damage, health, energy and chain strikes could easily break everything else in the game, and then you'd just need an even more complex system to keep track of everything in order to make things not exploitable, which destroys the purpose of the system being there in the first place. There'd also be little reason to change the types of strikes you use, players would simply put exactly what they want to use as every strike, Health-health-health-health, or damage-damage-damage-damage. There'd be little reason to go with any kind of mix. Oh- and this goes back to the 'samey builds' thing. Of course that's what you should expect players to do.

 

Stances could be cool, but normally it would just be more effective to just equip a different weapon anyway.

I dont think that many people would equip the furax and use 'boundless', or equipping the orthos or other wide-swing weapons and duelist/tempist.

It makes something that is already simple and easy to learn into something that just may be too complex for it's own good.

 

Let's recap.

 

You say that you want to reduce: Grind, 'Samey Builds' and Randomness, but your proposal serves to keep Grind and 'Samey Builds', and make the game boring by removing randomness, and the player's ability to create emergent solutions by forcing them into a smaller, more structured pool of upgrades, akin to the terrible World of Warcraft Talent Tree overhaul.

 

You fragment the playerbase by restricting player's 'gear power' based on their mastery rank, when it's completely clear that the intention was for mastery rank to be a quick gague of how much someone has played, and a restriction to gear, rather than something that directly affects player power. Players would no longer be encouraged to team up, and would be forced to grind to raise their mastery rank in order to compete. Min-maxing would be taken to a new level, since at every mastery level, players would only be able to get so much power out of their weapons and frames. Imagine World of Warcraft if you had to have a server full of max level characters in order to be considered for a raid. That's what would happen if warframe/weapon power was enhanced by mastery level, no matter how slight of a boost.

 

You want to use systems that don't directly synergize with the way warframe already is, and gut the system so it no longer appeals to the existing playerbase. Attachments and mods share the collectability aspect. Mods have the advantage of being reusable in order to level up other mods. Attachments don't have that advantage, and they don't offer anything that mods already do.

 

Finally the Fight Lab, a terrible way to replace an existing simple system with an overdesigned system to do something most players do naturally, and adds a potential system which is just fluff to seem like it does more or becomes the entire game, making everything else not optimal.

 

Everything you have listed is a step backwards. It creates systems that are centered on appearing to be more complex and interesting, and appearing to create 'better gameplay' rather than actually being more complex and interesting system than what already exists. 

 

 

I think that you don't understand that if your systems were implemented, the game would die within weeks. There would be little reason to play (grind) if there wasn't some kind of system that randomized what players got. That's how slot machines work, thats how gambling works. Psychology isn't a bad thing, we can build systems for games that use an understanding of psychology to keep players invested for longer periods of time. Your ideas throw that all out the window, and will end up being empty without something significant to hook players into the game other than mastery, which is a terrible idea.

 

Mods solve the problem where a level 6 player is less powerful than a level 9 player, allowing those two players to group up as equals.

 

Also, development costs for redesigning, gutting, and rebuilding everything to be the systems that you outlined would be pretty big undertaking that would remove any new content into other areas for quite a while. As they are going now, they can drop new content into the game at the drop of a hat, and rebalance it as needed. That's the way games are planned, made, and produced these days. Everything can be patched, nothing has to be 100% done, ever, because everything can always be revisited. And, it's always better to do smaller, incremental changes than massive changes to existing systems.

 

 

You do have some good points, however, you have to consider what kind of game Warframe is when thinking about what to add to it:

-Mastery Rank should at most, also unlock more slots for players to use. Tieing it to add stats to items is a TERRIBLE idea at every level of the player's experience.

-Skill trees are a bad idea for persistant, multiplayer games.

-Melee is a bit bland, but it can be spiced up with something simpler than a complete overhaul and unnecessary combo system.

-They do need to add something to weapons, that increases the power of them in some way other than mods, Attachments can work, but they would have to be designed with 'Warframe' in mind, and be something alongide the mod system that furthers the ability to customize a weapon, rather than just replaces what already exists. Also just a slight damage upgrade per level wouldn't be a bad idea, like it was when we had the skill tree.

-The same type of attachment system can be applied to melee

-Skill trees are always a bad idea for persistant, multiplayer games.

-Mods and drops should not leave, as if they did, there would be much less of a reason to play the game, especially for some of us who have invested a lot of time into this game because we LIKE to have something to grind on here or there.

 

 

Final word:

Sorry if I come off as a little caustic. Your ideas aren't bad, but they are misplaced.

 

Because of the type of player I am, and many other players of Warframe are, if they implemented some of your ideas, we'd be looking for other games, because we know what we want, and Warframe, right now, gives us that. Your ideas might apply better to games that aren't aleady based on grinding and upgrading. You need to have an intent in your design, rather than just copying ideas that you think are cool. If the systems don't -really- reinforce the intent of the game, saying they will won't convince anyone who's played enough games to understand how the systems in a game can interact with eachother to change the type of game you get when you mash them together.

 

Account based leveling and skill trees work well for games that have a lot of single-player content to slog through, and not as much emphasis on cooperative multiplayer interaction.

Examples: 

MapleStory - F*** trying to do anything cooperative in this game. If you don't have your characters on your account selected for the skills/bonuses they can share with other characters, even if you have good gear, nobody wants you in their group. The entire game at this point is a big single-player grind.

Rift - I think everyone knows where your root idea came from.

 

Attachments work well for competitive FPS or other games where players are much more equal.

Example: 

Call of Duty (ugh) - but it works for them, attachements (and everything, like perks) are tradeoffs, and players avatars are basically equal in terms of damage dealing and tanking capabilities

 

Combo customization systems can work well too, given that's the kind of game you're trying to make. Unless you are making a game that only has that one thing as it's focus, there's little to no reason to include a detailed editor.

Example:

Toribash - HOLY @(*()$ S#&$ THIS @(*()$ GAME IS SO AMAZING. But something like this just can't fit into a larger game....

 

 

TL;DR

OP is bad idea, doesn't fit the kind of game most people who are already playing would want, uses a lot of ideas that would work for other types of games, but just don't fit nicely in Warframe.

 

[LordRaine]

If the game doesn't get a major change, it's going to collapse in on itself. That's a fact. The number of players is already falling sharply, because there is nothing for people who have played the game for a long time to do but grind for things to let them grind for more things, and it's actively hostile to new players. It's losing the long time playerbase chunk by chunk, and dissuading new players from sticking around before they get past the first few planets. It's free-to-play, so newbies would feel no compulsion to stick with it or otherwise hang around, because they have no investment in it. They try it, they don't like it, they uninstall it and move on to better games.

At this late hour, no minor tweak or comparative change would save the game or make much improvement. It would just be slapping a bandage over a hole the size of your head. You all seem worried that a big change would kill it, and yet it will certainly die no matter what if nothing drastic is done. So from my point of view, I don't really think most of you have room to talk. If you can't even see the myriad of problems plaguing the game, and understand how badly they need to be fixed, then I don't really think you're qualified to judge the solution to the problem.

Doctors don't ask luddites for help when performing triple-bypass surgery.

Oh, and, just for the record? You don't get to complain about 'sweeping changes.' Warframe is still a beta by admittance, and an alpha by fact. It should, SHOULD, still be subject to sweeping changes and overhauls wherever any issues or problems happen to arise. You signed up for that, you agreed to that, you checked your name on the dotted line that said "I understand that at any point, DE might change the game in a way that hoses over everything I've worked towards up until this point because this is a open-beta trial, and I understand and accept that."

You signed that. Maybe if more people remembered that, maybe if DE remembered that, this game might actually have some long-term prospects that weren't so utterly bleak. They've already admitted that they don't want to change the game in a massive way because they "don't want to upset the people who have spent money," so they have, in effect, already admitted that, at the very least, they themselves no longer view it as being a beta, and they no longer hold the game to the spirit of the legal release we all had to sign in order to play it. They don't have the brass to change anything that actually needs changing because some of the people with shiny badges might get upset, so they just keep on sticking bandages on the faulty mechanics, and the ship goes right on sinking.

People try to help DE and Warframe out of the grave it's dug for itself, and you're standing on the side criticizing the shape of the shovels people are throwing in. Good job.

Edited November 30, 2013 by LordRaine

[Kyte]

f the game doesn't get a major change, it's going to collapse in on itself. That's a fact. The number of players is already falling sharply,^{[citation needed]}

 

Doctors don't ask luddites for help when performing triple-bypass surgery.

Great! Let's close the feedback forum and call up those Valve guys. I'm sure they can help.

 

 

Oh, and, just for the record? You don't get to complain about 'sweeping changes.' Warframe is still a beta by admittance, and an alpha by fact.^{[citation needed]}

 

 

You signed that. Maybe if more people remembered that, maybe if DE remembered that, this game might actually have some long-term prospects that weren't so utterly bleak. They've already admitted that they don't want to change the game in a massive way because they "don't want to upset the people who have spent money," so they have, in effect, already admitted that, at the very least, they themselves no longer view it as being a beta, and they no longer hold the game to the spirit of the legal release we all had to sign in order to play it. They don't have the brass to change anything that actually needs changing because some of the people with shiny badges might get upset, so they just keep on sticking bandages on the faulty mechanics, and the ship goes right on sinking.

As an aside, do you know anything about development cycles?

Beta is not a binary, it's a spectrum. With every day that passes, with every feature that gets added, with every player that starts playing, the game solidifies. This is not closed beta anymore.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Kyte

[Rajko]

Snip

 

 

What?  Out of curiosity, I just checked the stats.  On Black Friday (today) Warframe is ranked 11th for the day in peak and current logins on steam.  It beat out Left for Dead 2 and Borderlands 2, even.  Games that compete in similar niches.

 

Late hour?   Calm down.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Rajko

[fatpig84]

snip

 

 

 

You might think Op's idea as the best idea since sliced bread but we do feel that Warframe system is actually sound.

We can do slight modifications without blowing up the entire system.

 

==========================

 

Let me just share a little why I hate innate boost to my chars with Mastery ranks.

 

 

I came from Sword of the new world aka Granado Espada managed by IAHgames.

In there family level / mastery rank gives you insane bonuses.

I dealt more damage, I had more hp due to bonuses, my skill points let me specc all out damage, hp and defense etc.

 

 

If given the same equipment, I will almost always beat a Family rank 0 player, even if he is more skilled than me.

Purely because I am Family rank 30.  

 

I would have 25%+ more hp, i would deal on average 15% more DPS (not counting crits), my spells and cool downs cast much faster and my defense meant he or any boss deals reduced damage against me.

 

Be it in PvE or PVP. 

 

I might be less skilled but greatly stronger numerical statistics can more than sufficiently cover me for any hardcore raids.

Also raids being limited manpower and instanced would have the rank 0 family keep getting dropped from the line up unless someone else graciously gave up his slots.

 

The Devs IMC practically dug a hole there for themselves, so they created a brand new area only where people with Mastery 30 can access. So they can sit around and challenge each other on a much closer ground.

 

And this was a game I played since 2007 till 2011.

Don't even get me started on the Tree system they used for both Mastery exp and combat stances (need this stance maxed to get this stance, need 2 of this stances for another stance blah blah).

 

I came from such a system, so I don't want it ever. 

 

================================

 

So no. Mastery for slots will do fine.

Or very minor boost.. Like the following

 

Faster scanning ? Hey that's fine.

Faster Ledge grab ? That's cool too.

More stamina regen ? Sure.

 

But nothing like what the Op is suggesting (more shields, more powerful spell attacks, energy) because anything that has a direct impact on combat will make mastery ranks nothing more than a griefing tool.

 

 

 

But weapon leveling up and gaining some stats ?

Yes that's a good idea.

Re-vamping melee ?

Yep of course.

Edited November 30, 2013 by fatpig84

[Dran]

I have read thoroughly the OP. Quite a lot of promising ideas, to say the least.

 

*Note: I have not gone through the 15 pages of comments, so what I'm saying might have already been said, bear with me on that :)

 

I strongly agree on how mods are overly important to both warframes and guns, and how some mods are simply "must have" (redirection, serration, multishot...etc). And with the limiting number of mod slots as well as mod capacity, you have little to no room for "preferences".

However, completely removing the mod system may bring more harm than good. This may just be my personal opinion, but I don't think anyone would want to log in one day and find out that their max-ranked Serration, Redirection, Heavy Caliber and other absurdly-expensive-to-max mods have gone out of the window.

 

Still, I'm loving your concepts of warframe skill trees and weapon customization/loadout.

May be there can be a combination of both the current system with your new concepts?

I have some ideas of my own, but putting everything in a comment might not be effective, so here are a few key points that I thought about:

 

1. Warframes

- Warframe skills would no longer be mods/take up mod slots. They may still cost mod capacity, at a lowered rate however. If DE ever introduce alternative skill sets for each frames, they can be changed in a drop-down menu manner.

This also eliminate the frustration of getting ability mods as drops during missions, or buying mod packs.

 

- Balance the power of certain mods, such as Redirection and Vitality. Let's face it: 440% increase in shield at max rank makes it a no-brainer for most of not all frames.

 

- Possibilities: looking at your concepts, may be Warframes can have 2 customization menus: 1 similar to your Braton load-out concept, with the current mods in place of the "Attachments". The other would of course be the skill/talent trees.

 

 

2. Weapons:

- Mods like Damage, Fire Rate, Multishot can have their own separated slots similar to warframe skills (read above). Their power should, however, be reduced so that we don't have to balance high end contents around a gun with 200% increased damage, plus fire rate, multishot and elementaal

 

- Similar to what I said in the Warframe section: using your Braton load-out concept image, using mods as attachments (plus new attachments ideas, like the ones in your example).

 

- Some people might hate me for this: Looking at the trailers for the game Destiny, I saw their concept of skill/talent trees for weapons. Perhaps Warframe might learn something from this? It would open up many possibilities.

 

3. General:

- Reduce the amounts of resources required to upgrade mods: throwing 500 fusion core and half a million credit just to get that 15% damage increase while maxing Serration is NOT FUN. Clicking thousands of times while leveling mods should not be a Warframe-related skill.

 

- Reduce mod ranks: Instead of having a 10-rank rare mods, costing and arm and a leg to max, plus draining mod capacity severely restricting build flexibility - tone mods down so we shouldn't be forced to forma something 6 times to squeeze in all the "must-have" mods.

 

 

Compared to your OP, these ideas are much less detailed and not nearly as well-thought, but read them with an open mind :)

[Shadowcrusnik]

I have read thoroughly the OP. Quite a lot of promising ideas, to say the least.

 

*Note: I have not gone through the 15 pages of comments, so what I'm saying might have already been said, bear with me on that :)

 

I strongly agree on how mods are overly important to both warframes and guns, and how some mods are simply "must have" (redirection, serration, multishot...etc). And with the limiting number of mod slots as well as mod capacity, you have little to no room for "preferences".

However, completely removing the mod system may bring more harm than good. This may just be my personal opinion, but I don't think anyone would want to log in one day and find out that their max-ranked Serration, Redirection, Heavy Caliber and other absurdly-expensive-to-max mods have gone out of the window.

 

Still, I'm loving your concepts of warframe skill trees and weapon customization/loadout.

May be there can be a combination of both the current system with your new concepts?

I have some ideas of my own, but putting everything in a comment might not be effective, so here are a few key points that I thought about:

 

1. Warframes

- Warframe skills would no longer be mods/take up mod slots. They may still cost mod capacity, at a lowered rate however. If DE ever introduce alternative skill sets for each frames, they can be changed in a drop-down menu manner.

This also eliminate the frustration of getting ability mods as drops during missions, or buying mod packs.

 

- Balance the power of certain mods, such as Redirection and Vitality. Let's face it: 440% increase in shield at max rank makes it a no-brainer for most of not all frames.

 

- Possibilities: looking at your concepts, may be Warframes can have 2 customization menus: 1 similar to your Braton load-out concept, with the current mods in place of the "Attachments". The other would of course be the skill/talent trees.

 

 

2. Weapons:

- Mods like Damage, Fire Rate, Multishot can have their own separated slots similar to warframe skills (read above). Their power should, however, be reduced so that we don't have to balance high end contents around a gun with 200% increased damage, plus fire rate, multishot and elementaal

 

- Similar to what I said in the Warframe section: using your Braton load-out concept image, using mods as attachments (plus new attachments ideas, like the ones in your example).

 

- Some people might hate me for this: Looking at the trailers for the game Destiny, I saw their concept of skill/talent trees for weapons. Perhaps Warframe might learn something from this? It would open up many possibilities.

 

3. General:

- Reduce the amounts of resources required to upgrade mods: throwing 500 fusion core and half a million credit just to get that 15% damage increase while maxing Serration is NOT FUN. Clicking thousands of times while leveling mods should not be a Warframe-related skill.

 

- Reduce mod ranks: Instead of having a 10-rank rare mods, costing and arm and a leg to max, plus draining mod capacity severely restricting build flexibility - tone mods down so we shouldn't be forced to forma something 6 times to squeeze in all the "must-have" mods.

 

 

Compared to your OP, these ideas are much less detailed and not nearly as well-thought, but read them with an open mind :)

 

Someone give this man a cookie!

[Inberun]

I can't express how much I love this, so I will just leave this for you

 

[Ivalician]

This sounds so much more interesting and fun to play than the current system, kudos to you good madam/sir for taking the time to design all this, someone needs to put you in a game design studio!

Edited December 1, 2013 by Ivalician