A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[theGreatZamboni]

This might just be the reason some people think it would take far smaller changes to do what you want instead of completely rewriting the system.

 

They in fact, might just be arguing against you on how you want to reach your end goal than rather what your end goal is.

 

If you want to know why I think this, I'll give you a hint:

 

I did this thing called reading their posts.

 

You took what I said out of context.

 

...but incorporates what they are already doing. If you watch the video link in my OP, my melee system makes that system more diverse. They already did the work.

 

 

I have repeatedly explained why you need to get rid of all of it. It is all there.

[RealityMachina]

 

I have repeatedly explained why you need to get rid of all of it. It is all there.

In that case I'm even more confused, because...they haven't implemented their improved melee system in the game yet.

 

That's kind of a big indicator that the work has in fact, not been all done.

[Geisterklinge]

Holy crap you put a lot of work into this. And it is actually a fine read - I thought I'd just skim through the first paragraph and then suddenly I read the whole post. You definitly get my upvote.
I don't think everything will be changed to how you described it, but I'd be glad if DE just takes some inspiration from your suggestions.
Anyway thanks for the work.

[MJ12]

In that case I'm even more confused, because...they haven't implemented their improved melee system in the game yet.

 

That's kind of a big indicator that the work has in fact, not been all done.

 

What I'm really amused at is Zamboni saying that we're the ones taking his statements out of context, whereas we're the only ones looking at the gigantic amount of effort he seems to want for something that really, really, could be fixed much more easily and simply.

 

I am not kidding that my suggestions would accomplish 99% of what he wanted re: weapons and warframe mods with literally 0.1% of the effort.

 

"Weapons get more damage as they level up, as people would expect. Abilities are their own separate thing with their own mod slots."

 

Hell, if you wanted to be super special snowflake you could make Abilities 'equipment' that you equip that have their own mods. This would functionally do the same thing and take less work. Nobody is saying this game has no issues, people are saying these issues could be easily fixed, and posts like this do more to harm than help, because they make the issues look like massive things you need to overhaul and thus it looks far easier to just give up and ignore the issues, rather than simple, small things you can fix.

 

Nobody has ever convinced someone to fix something by telling them "what you need to fix requires you to destroy everything you did."

 

(Also, I am endlessly amused by the people who say that grind doesn't keep people playing games, given that literally the most popular games in the world, WoW, CoD, and LoL, all have craptons of grind.)

[theGreatZamboni]

What I'm really amused at is Zamboni saying that we're the ones taking his statements out of context, whereas we're the only ones looking at the gigantic amount of effort he seems to want for something that really, really, could be fixed much more easily and simply.

 

I am not kidding that my suggestions would accomplish 99% of what he wanted re: weapons and warframe mods with literally 0.1% of the effort.

 

"Weapons get more damage as they level up, as people would expect. Abilities are their own separate thing with their own mod slots."

 

Hell, if you wanted to be super special snowflake you could make Abilities 'equipment' that you equip that have their own mods. This would functionally do the same thing and take less work. Nobody is saying this game has no issues, people are saying these issues could be easily fixed, and posts like this do more to harm than help, because they make the issues look like massive things you need to overhaul and thus it looks far easier to just give up and ignore the issues, rather than simple, small things you can fix.

 

Nobody has ever convinced someone to fix something by telling them "what you need to fix requires you to destroy everything you did."

 

(Also, I am endlessly amused by the people who say that grind doesn't keep people playing games, given that literally the most popular games in the world, WoW, CoD, and LoL, all have craptons of grind.)

 

See again, someone isn't taking it all into account. If you give powers their own mod slots, you still have mods in the drop tables. Saying it destroys everything is also absurd. All the powers/mods/damage etc are all there, they just need to be retooled. You are now suppressing evidence. People play those games you listed because there is meaningful progression, not senseless grind.

[bobafetthotmail]

 

 

 

This game has amazing art direction and promises. That is it. It has been crawling along instead of taking the strides it should. They are working on easy short term methods of retention instead of creating a means of play that is engaging and a jumping off point.

Yeah, it's kind of weird. But consider that DE only made crap games before, so they are probably noob game designers.

 

Not all games funded by this model end up as good games.

 

 

 

 

That's kind of a big indicator that the work has in fact, not been all done.

but the fact that their tendency of adding fucktons of (broadly useless) mod cards for each and every mechanic does not make me think it's going to be that good.

 

Damage 2.0 is decent but even after it is balanced is still very meh, as it basically moves the focus on elementals, on cards, instead than on weapons and the builds are again set in stone, just anti-faction builds.

 

 

 

 

 

"Weapons get more damage as they level up, as people would expect. Abilities are their own separate thing with their own mod slots."

How is that supposed to make melee better and mods more interesting, while allowing customization?

Yo you freed some slots, but did you notice the crapton of semi-useless mods we are getting every update?

If they had their own system as devised by the OP they would stop looking so useless (as they would not take the place of a MUCH more powerful mod).

 

 

 

 

(Also, I am endlessly amused by the people who say that grind doesn't keep people playing games, given that literally the most popular games in the world, WoW, CoD, and LoL, all have craptons of grind.)

They also have something else that is rewarding, from simple powercreep (getting equipment with bigger numbers) to actually interesting PvP gameplay. Grind is boring in and of itself. It's a mean to an end, not an end.

Edited November 29, 2013 by bobafetthotmail

[RealityMachina]

See again, someone isn't taking it all into account. If you give powers their own mod slots, you still have mods in the drop tables.

....and? The problem with Warframe isn't the mods themselves, it's how they're currently being used as an substitute for actual steady progression.

[theGreatZamboni]

....and? The problem with Warframe isn't the mods themselves, it's how they're currently being used as an substitute for actual steady progression.

 

Uh...

[MJ12]

See again, someone isn't taking it all into account. If you give powers their own mod slots, you still have mods in the drop tables.

 

So? Mods in the drop tables is a problem why? I mean, you could actually take them out of the drop tables too if you wanted to. That's also a simple fix. Literally, that'd be maybe an hour or two at most if Warframe has reasonably well-designed code. And I think DE is at least competent enough to have reasonably well-designed code.

 

Again, none of what you find wrong (and note I agree with a lot of the problems you find) require drastic retooling of the game. Again, I'm fully willing to burn sacred cows when they're actually getting in the way. This really isn't one of those times.

 

Saying it destroys everything is also absurd. All the powers/mods/damage etc are all there, they just need to be retooled.

 

No, that is destroying literally everything. I'm not sure how you think "weapons require a totally different form of improvement, Warframes have a totally different form of advancement which requires a ton more design work and art assets"

 

You are now suppressing evidence. People play those games you listed because there is meaningful progression, not senseless grind.

 

There's "meaningful progression" in Warframe too. Your numbers get bigger, you unlock more weapons and gear, you get more stuff to make numbers go even bigger. Could there be more meaningful progression? Sure. Is your method the best way of going about it? Nope.

[OblivionNecroninja]

I'll read this more thouroughly and give better feedback later, but for now I'd just like to say that I think you have a very good point about the Mod system being at the heart of Warframe's problems.

Well, that, DE's inexplicable Neurode Fetish, and the fact that nobody there knows how to program a half-decent AI.

[Zinn]

I don't really think OP's system has much of a chance to improve things (outside the mechanics fixes, like making melee fun), since skill trees are the laziest and most boring way to enforce cookie-cutter builds. I actually like WFs modding system a lot, I just think they need to scrap the basic mods (serration, vitality, multishot etc.), add those things to weapons/frames as they level and focus on making weapons and frames FUN.

 

First on the agenda is bringing back a decent crit and status rate: Weapons used to actually show yellow numbers regularly, unmodded, which was nice (typically 10-15% crit chance). DE just went waaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard with modding 2.0 and essentially removed it, despite the fact that the issue with broken crits were ridiculous mod-stacking (8 mod slots with melee-speed, crit chance and crit damage, including dual mods with ridiculous numbers? Yes, please!) and not base-crit rate.

 

Secondly, focus on things that add variety, something a decent amount of mods already do: Crit chance, crit damage, status effects, status effect chance, reload speed, ammo capacity and so on. The introduction of the Boltor, for instance, had a weapon that couldn't do a lot of things you had the opportunity to on other weapons (due to firing actual projectiles and not hit-scanning, some mods didn't work properly like puncture and crit mods - a significant disadvantage at the time) but impaling enemies was ridiculously fun. If you could add more effects to weapons through mods, that could increase variety and fun a fair amount (imagine things like slowdown, knocking a row of enemies down through puncture + knockdown + status chance mod, mods that make enemies split in half etc.). And make sure these are actually effective.

 

Another thing that needs to happen is frame variety: While there is some good variety in powers, I miss proper casters, something like Ember that can seriously spam its skills but have severe drawbacks like being unable to wield a primary weapon. I realise that the caster I'll illustrate has some severe skill overlaps with other frames but I'm just mentioning basic ideas and the skills should be considered placeholders: Why we can't have a caster that has a mix of skills similar to Ember's fireball, a small nova akin to the Diablo spell, something like Mag's Crush and then complimented by a skill that would drain 90% of your energy upon use but give you a good energy regen for X seconds? This frame's skills would literally be its primary weapon (and thus it can't use one of those). Or how about basically a Rhino with modified melee stats? Slow, heavily armored, various bonuses to melee damage and so on. Hell you could even go the opposite direction for melee and make a very fast frame with combo-bonuses, melee crit-bonuses, backstab bonuses, a spammable invisibility and maybe an Ult that would let it spin at ridiculous speeds and be a bladed whirlwind slicing everything in its path? Of course, it would have much less protection then the hino example, similar to a Rogue in an RPG.

 

Essentially, I think most of WF is salvageable in the modding department, I just think their focus is in the wrong place (nerfing everything), rather than adding variety and fun. Basically, Warframe is never ever going to be particularly difficult because the AI will always suck and cannot match humanity's ability to abuse it but you can just go with the flow and make it a lot of fun to play. Plus, you wouldn't really have to alter DE's business model much, since you still keep your taters, forma etc.

[theGreatZamboni]

I'll read this more thouroughly and give better feedback later, but for now I'd just like to say that I think you have a very good point about the Mod system being at the heart of Warframe's problems.

Well, that, DE's inexplicable Neurode Fetish, and the fact that nobody there knows how to program a half-decent AI.

 

To be fair they did leak something about AI types in livestream 16. It just can't come soon enough.

[fatpig84]

I apologise that I did not fully read the entire OP post, but I will just mention why I don't like Skill trees or synergies in skills.

Because you will always end up on a fixed path.

 

Some skill trees don't put you on exactly what you want.

 

Yes the current mod system puts everyone on a min max road, but that is hidden by the grind wall.

A tree system will be no different since everyone will just calculate the best DPS and build towards that build.

 

At least in Warframe, I can freely put whatever I want.

I mean my Brakk even has Suppressor because I use a cloaky loki.

 

Yeah I am sure people will call me for being a "nub" for using a suppressor but whatever.

 

 

And to be honest, this build would have being good, if OP talked to DE about this when we are still on Mods 1.0.

But now, DE is going full out Mod 2.0 and Damage 2.0, so it won't be touched on much.

Edited November 29, 2013 by fatpig84

[Sofiel]

DE. Please hire this man. He is genius, hear him roar.

[Calayne]

I apologise that I did not fully read the entire OP post, but I will just mention why I don't like Skill trees or synergies in skills.

Because you will always end up on a fixed path.

 

 

...The guy took hours just to come up with that first post, complete with diagrams and pictures, and I'm sorry to say this, but you couldn't be fecked to read through it for about five minutes before making this comment? It's actually quite sad. He's got a lot of good things going on, man. Read through it before you bash it. It'll have answers to your questions, if you understand the proposed changes.

[Kyte]

...The guy took hours just to come up with that first post, complete with diagrams and pictures, and I'm sorry to say this, but you couldn't be fecked to read through it for about five minutes before making this comment? It's actually quite sad. He's got a lot of good things going on, man. Read through it before you bash it. It'll have answers to your questions, if you understand the proposed changes.

a) What bashing.

b) If it took him hours then he's got a problem.

c) He's already got a verbosity problem, anyways.

d) Jesus christ stop whiteknighting for him.

[Calayne]

a) What bashing.

b) If it took him hours then he's got a problem.

c) He's already got a verbosity problem, anyways.

d) Jesus christ stop whiteknighting for him.

 

I happen to like white, and most of my Warframes have that as their main palette.

 

And I don't think it's unreasonable at all, to at least expect people to read before they comment. It's generally considered decent behaviour, at the least. As for points b and c... The irony is that when you go to a sparsely-detailed, somewhat-but-not-quite-detailed thread for an idea, it's pretty much a shot in the dark: The general idea is there, but isn't much fleshed out.

 

For once, I've seen a pretty well-defined suggestion, and it resonates with my idea of what an improvement should be. Of course I'd defend it.

 

Same way you seem to defend anti-white-knighting.  *Wink!*

[WhiskeyGolf]

As a guy who just started playing barely 6 weeks ago, I'll say this: I was quite disappointed that leveling the weapons didn't do anything to the base stats. I managed to make it past Venus on just the good ol' Braton, but then I had to shell out for tater and salvage to make a Boltor just so I could survive Earth and and Mars, and only barely managed to get to the Soma by the skin of my teeth (and a lot of help and carrying from my bros, including one epic 20 minute Survival on Ose where we picked up almsot 1000 Rubedo).

 

How many of us still run the maxed Boltors or Bratons we have? Very few, I'd wager. Why? Because they've fallen by the roadside, because their stats remain the same.

 

I'm not arguing for much, but some small upgrades in weapon stats would be nice, and really give some added incentive to leveling weapons (though I do understand that the whole idea of mods and mod energy is that it's representative of gaining affinity with the aforesaid weapon, allowing you to do more stuff with it).

 

Also, the resistance mods are a joke. 3% damage reduction? Really, DE? If I have to choose between that and 40% more shields, I'll take 40% more shields because taht will keep me alive better. So how do you make them more viable? Buff the resistances to something that allows it to be competitive. It's a simple tweak, not a major overhaul.

 

The game has problems, yes, but it does not need a complete overhaul the way OP suggests, it just needs tweaks here and there.

 

Also, OP says that the game gives too much choice to the players in setting up mods. That is not intrinsically a bad thing. Yes, people can screw up their build - but then you learn from your mistakes and move on. Real life is no different. I would rather have the freedom to experiment, screw up, and try again, than to have my hand held or be forced into a cookie cutter build.

 

As for OP's proposed combo system for melee, I can see where he took it from - Remember Me - and I'll just submit that Remember Me made sense to have an intricate combo system because it was melee-focused by default, because there were no guns in that game.

 

Warframe gives you two guns and a melee weapon. The whole focus of this game is dakka first, stabby second. I recognise the work OP has done, but IMO that's like you asking a Ticonderoga-class cruiser to focus more on gun duels with the for and aft 5 inch guns, when the whole point of that ship is the 100-odd missiles it carries.

[fatpig84]

I will just briefly explain why I am against the recommendation.

 

1) Using Mastery boost root abilities. 

This isn't a new idea. In fact this idea has being thrown around many times already. 

And this is what I am completely against for.

 

Look the reason why conclave ratings are hidden is because people were pegging power to your CR.

Giving intrinsic boost to mastery will bring back the days of "T3 def 1k CR only".

Like "T3 survival, mastery 6 min"

I do not want that.

 

This will also affect pvp (but I think the Op is smart enough to include that such ratings should not boost pvp) even further.

 

Instead I have always being arguing for free slots for mastery.

At every 2 levels, an F2P player can get a choice of a free warframe slot or 2 free weapon slots.

 

Why ? Because this gives F2Pers a chance to stay and play. 

In fact the biggest bleeder of players is not the mod system, but slots. 

 

I seen players quit and they say it is because they have 2 frames they gotten too attached and too afraid to sell em.

Then they get bored... And they leave.

 

Even intrinsic boost won't save you as many players as free slots would do.

And again this would lead to another level of min-maxing in a rather heavy min-maxing game.

 

 

===================================

 

 

2) Trees I have explained this before.

 

Because unless all trees lead to the same path, trees branching off will eventually not allow true "free" customization.

Some trees will always be better than others. People will still take the min maxing road except you can no longer play a Rhino with max energy + max energy efficiency while stacking vigour and max redirection.

 

 

Personally myself I use a Rush + Quick Rest + Marathon Rhino build with vanguard with energy and shields as after thoughts, so is it the most "tanky and most powahful rhino evar ?!" Nope.  But I just like it that way.

 

 

The trees system imo hand holds the players, too much in fact. I dislike that.

You can still mod lightly, but you will never ever be at true freedom as the free card system allows now.

 

 

Because once a tree system is in place, devs will desire to "create balance" and all the tree does is that it rail roads you to certain endings or builds. Also as points are limited, the outcome will still lead to the same end. "Use this build or you fail at warframe".

 

 

Oh that has being the case for every game with skill trees right or even Warframe with the mod card systems, amirite ?

Edited November 29, 2013 by fatpig84

[WhiskeyGolf]

at the end of the day, efficiency and testing and experience will mean that if you want a certain build, this is the most efficient way to do it. We see this in commercial aviation, in military transport planes - form follows function. The C-141 Starlifter, C-5 Galaxy, C-17 Globemaster II, An-124 Condor, An-225 Mirya, Il-76 Candid - they all look similar why? Form follows function.

 

The current free card system, on the other hand, allows me complete freedom in building my warframe, if I'm willing to accept penalties - for instance on my Nova, I don't use teleport at all, so I use that Ability slot to put in Stretch, accepting the mod cost penalty for the sake of a larger range for me to Molecular Prime.

 

And I second the free slots for mastery. Maybe make it 1 free warframe slot and 1 free weapon slot, alternating, for mastery. That would be a great way of drawing in players. I know I agonised a lot about getting Volt, then Rhino, then my other warframes. I was lucky to have cash and a 75% discount, but not everyone's gonna be that lucky.

[MJ12]

I will just briefly explain why I am against the recommendation.

 

1) Using Mastery boost root abilities. 

This isn't a new idea. In fact this idea has being thrown around many times already. 

And this is what I am completely against for.

 

Look the reason why conclave ratings are hidden is because people were pegging power to your CR.

Giving intrinsic boost to mastery will bring back the days of "T3 def 1k CR only".

Like "T3 survival, mastery 6 min"

I do not want that.

 

There's actually a simple solution to that. Have Mastery give perks that give no direct combat utility. Possibly even very limited indirect combat utility.

 

So for example, at Mastery 1 you can choose one of:

 

Loot Radar + 10

 

Enemy Radar + 5

 

Open Locked Lockers 10%

 

+10% Stamina

 

+5% Stamina Recharge

 

-5% Sprint Stamina usage

 

+10% Mantling/Ledge Grab speed

 

+10% Weapon Swap speed

 

+10% Scan speed

 

and other fairly limited benefits like this. Someone with tons of Mastery can run forever in circles and ledge-grab really fast and switch weapons really fast, scan things really well, and so on. They don't get any better at fighting.

[Senteth]

The OP's ideas are nice and all, but at this point a near-total overhaul would be required to implement them, which is unrealistic, particularly right after a different major overhaul. Like MJ12 said, much of what you want can be achieved by tweaking the existing system rather than throwing it out altogether.

[Tevye]

MJ12 and the OP basically agree on the actual issue, from everything I've read here, and differ only in degree and manner of response. What I haven't seen is the OP explaining why the massive rebuild is more correct than small line item adjustments and system reworks on small scales. The big elephant in the room of the op concept is how would the dev's implement such a massive rebuild, and in fact a change in direction from current efforts. Yes, you could claim that's De's problem, but with such an exhaustive effort on his proposal, you would expect at least some time to have been spent on the practical application of how would it be done. It is the lynch pin of any proposal. And It's flat missing here.

Which leads me to the second thing. Did the op actually want community feedback? As far as I can tell, his/her response to critical feedback is to say we didn't understand or read the concept. Dispite the fact that we are all functionally in agreement on what the issues at hand are;

The mods system as is requires a large degree of uniformity to make frames function as mission level rises- Players would like to build unique and expressive loadouts but cannot do so due to loss of functionality.

With procedural mission generation, actual mission content itself is not a guaranteed sell for return play, which leads to the emphasis on mod collection. This creates a Pokemon effect of playing for a completion rate and a finite end of gameplay, which in an online squad game is not the desired goal.

Melee system is currently a lack luster feature in high level gameplay to many players.

But every thought posted that is not in lock step with the op is dismissed. As if he/she has no interest in dissenting opinions. This is not an exchange of ideas if that's the case. It's just ego stroking.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Remitevji

[Rajko]

I wanted to contribute further, but honestly I felt the care drain out of me as I read through the posts that have been written since this thread was unlocked.

Here's some criticism I feel sure you don't want: the OP needs to be cleaned up for coherence. The statements that establish the problem this concept attempts to address are too vague and make sense only on the second read through, when the reader knows a lot more about the OP's opinions to fill in context. The mockups are lovely but confusing without further details. It is difficult to visualize and takes attention off of the written ideas. An example of customizing a frame through the proposed system would be very helpful. Several terms and concepts the OP has clearly thought out thoroughly aren't clear enough, as though the writer assumes the reader knows what he/she knows. Unfortunately the process of refining the idea and clarity of vision the op has for this material is not making it through. I have read through the main post now 4 times. I await harsh judgement for my failure.

And although it should be obvious, if the OP is commited to defeating dissenting opinions, please don't condescend to quoting your own previous posts. If it wasn't clear enough the first time, it won't be better the second time. Either someone is trying to grasp it and hasn't, or they didn't read it and its just pointless to get fired up. Or they legitimately dissent. Which is fine. If its worth a response, respond meaningfully.

Finally, it's incredibly hostile to say that only the feedback you agree with has merit. Feasability is a legitimate concern. Note that most of the posts to that effect like your concept, but expressed regret that as proposed it is too sweeping or complex to implement easily.

There are a lot of ideas here, I hope that the discussion is fruitful.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Rajko

[Ryujen]

I definitely agree with the majority of the post, which was well explained and detailed.

However, I believe the main reason I am playing this game is because DE keeps trying to design mechanics that are not found in other games and that's why they face these kind of obstacles in game design.

Can you think of one game that has this kind of mod system with fusions and polarising? What about Damage 2.0? Of course not. EVERYONE copies from the most succesful developer because they're afraid of finding themselves in these kind of situations, which result in more game developing time (no one wants an angry publisher).

My point is :  I think we should forget about using tried-and-true mechanics from other games, I have nothing against being inspired by them, but I believe we should let DE make their own take on those subjects. So far we haven't been let down, haven't we?