A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Calayne]

There are still mod ideas that could be tried out, and there's still an entire niche of weapon-specific mods to work with.

(I want a mod that changes the trigger type of akimbo sidearms from semi-auto to duplex-auto)

 

Calayne, on 03 Dec 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

While it's true that would be a sensible answer for the current system, reviewing and patching, I'd definitely like to see more than 10% of the player base even consider switching out their Lethal Torrent, Razor shot, Pathogen rounds and Heated Charge for utility mSods which do, in fact, reduce your overall efficiency.

 

Posted Today, 10:33 PM

See this is a pipe dream because humans are minmaxing creatures. The fact such a tradeoff has to be made is why nobody uses them in first place.

 

I'm not sure what this might suggest, actually, considering my above post.

[Kyte]

I think the general fear is that when you lose the mods, you feel like you're losing a lot of freedom in customizing your Warframe. Which is kinda true, in a sense. 

 

It's kind of like how if you were given a choice to either study in school or choose which limb to shoot of; Yes, you don't get to choose your curriculum in school, but the alternative is a false choice. They limit you in the sense that you only have -8- mod slots to choose from, and that's before you deduct your mod slots used for abilities.

 

Now you may potentially be given a choice of side-grading your Warframe with EVERY POSSIBLE COMBINATION of the mods you are defending. You can have Redirection, Vitality, Flow, Focus, Maglev, Diamond Skin, Anti-toxin, Acrobat, Parry, Reflex Guard and your Warframe powers, which you'll further customize.

 

You can have it all, at varying degrees of power, without the need to relevel all your mods if you overshot your mod capacity. We can be as unto GODS. Not toys. Tinkering with a measly 4 slots with all our powers, we hardly have a choice. That 8 slots is a false choice, my friends, unless you go for a seriously unorthodox play style, which many of us won't.

 

This gives us true freedom. True, there's not really that much RNG drops to look forward to. ...Or is there? ATTACHMENTS!! I can't stress how much I love this idea. The freedom to choose any style of play, without sacrificing another aspect of it. You can now have beefiness, power and utility; Or you can be fast, mobile, versatile and a jack-of-all-trades. It's an actual choice now. No more crippling builds just to add in that extra Antitoxin, or Steel Fibre. 

 

This is basically what I support, in the proposed system.

Make power cards into a separate category. Separate general mods into 2 categories. 6 mod slots for upgrades (Redirection, Vitality, Flow, Focus, Reflex Guard. Oh look. There's one left over!). Unlimited utility mods (Maglev, Diamond Skin, Antitoxin, Acrobat, Parry). Mod energy might be an issue, but this just adds value to forma and keeps a bit of the tradeoff aspect. Allow mod tuning so they can be slotted at any rank from zero to <max unlocked rank>. Make utility mods' drain proportional to their benefit (if they have a built-in tradeoff, then reduce the drain further).

There. Now we have your desired result without inventing a new system that's just mods in disguise.

 

 

 

All this "devs must stay in a ivory tower" thing is why I like of indie gamers, and of some mod-friendly companies. Devs actually care about the game, and don't treat the stuff they are working on as a @(*()$ company secret, and hang around with plebes talking about stuff when they have some spare time.

 

But here it seems that the only people that care a bit for the game are the high-level devs, while bulk of their workforce does not give a F*** and/or has no control over the direction the game is headed anyway, so there is no reason to talk about it.

 

And let me tell you, it's not going to happen, because they have a fetish for RNG and mod cards.

Or more probably, they are working towards next Wednesday when they release yet another of our weekly updates. Do you have any idea how preposterously frequent DE's updates are?

Edited December 3, 2013 by Kyte

[Calayne]

All this "devs must stay in a ivory tower" thing is why I like of indie gamers, and of some mod-friendly companies. Devs actually care about the game, and don't treat the stuff they are working on as a @(*()$ company secret, and hang around with plebes talking about stuff when they have some spare time.

 

But here it seems that the only people that care a bit for the game are the high-level devs, while bulk of their workforce does not give a F*** and/or has no control over the direction the game is headed anyway, so there is no reason to talk about it.

 

And let me tell you, it's not going to happen, because they have a fetish for RNG and mod cards.

 

 

Well, now they can have a fetish for Attachments, more skins and visual enhancements to weapons. And I think the people other than those specifically delegated to community duty is very, very busy. Which is probably why we don't see them much, I think.

[Calayne]

 

Or more probably, they are working towards next Wednesday when they release yet another of our weekly updates. Do you have any idea how preposterously frequent DE's updates are?

 

Well, we certainly agree on that!

 

As for the other topics, sorry but I gotta go! Exams are waiting. Nice talking to ya! That's a good point, by the way, for unlimited utility mods. 

[theGreatZamboni]

Make power cards into a separate category. 6 mod slots for upgrades (Redirection, Vitality, Flow, Focus, Reflex Guard). Unlimited utility mods (Maglev, Diamond Skin, Antitoxin, Acrobat, Parry). Mod energy might be an issue, but this just adds value to forma.

There. Now we have your desired result without inventing a new system that's just mods in disguise.

 

You still have to grind for mods. New mods will still be released and pollute the RNG. Mastery Rank has no meaning. The stats of guns have not been touched. The mods still make the Warframe/Weapon, instead of the other way around. Melee is still unviable. Mods still cause railroading in builds.

 

Again you are proposing systems and fixes that are not actual fixes as they do not address every aspect or issue. I am having to repeat myself. Your argument has dissolved into "too much work" again. Please read this post again, as if I am talking directly to you.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1690832

[bobafetthotmail]

Or more probably, they are working towards next Wednesday when they release yet another of our weekly updates. Do you have any idea how preposterously frequent DE's updates are?

Do they work 24/7? Would explain all the mistakes and why everything is going to hell. Also, more useless guns and more useless mods, possibly an additional nested RNG experience where you need to grind for keys so you can grind for keys to grind for keys to unlock something that is debatable we should even care about!

 

more "content" =/= better game

 

If they care about the game, they use their free time to hang around and talk. Because they actually like doing so.

 

But this is very rare admittedly, for most being devs is just a job, they don't actually like to make a game.

Edited December 3, 2013 by bobafetthotmail

[theGreatZamboni]

Do they work 24/7? Would explain all the mistakes and why everything is going to hell.

 

If they care about the game, they use their free time to hang around and talk. Because they actually like doing so.

 

Or stop releasing content that artificially lengthens the game. Use their time to work on the core gameplay and mechanics. Fix bugs and create a method in which to expound upon the narrative. You can release weapons, that is easy content. But when that is the majority of what we get, when it takes months to fix a simple issue that compounds into something greater; you get poor press and player resentment. Again things I have already discussed previously in this thread and in others. Needless to say, the kind of content they are putting out is exacerbating the issues.

Edited December 3, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[bobafetthotmail]

Are you suggesting they spend their free time here? God that'd be horrible.

Anyways, nobody's taking your negative bias from you so I'm considering this conversation closed. If you're not willing to see the effort DE puts, then I can't make you.

I just said that I know of game designers that do dwell in their game's forum to discuss actually relevant matters to the game, and that do so on their free time because they actually like the game they are making. How is that wrong for you?

 

How is better keeping them completely isolated from the playerbase and locked up tight to work their asses off and make fucktons of random stuff they don't have any clue how will actually fit in-game?

 

It's like you have no idea how game development works. Mods and weapons are primarily artwork and the design team assigning numbers. (Which I suspect makes for a bit of a break between the heavy design sessions)

What do you think the art teams do while the coders are busy fixing bugs (and I must remind you they also fix bugs with each and every update/hotfix), creating new mechanics, etc.

Because we don't need new and better maps and tilesets, we don't need some animator to go and fix the hilarious clipping issues most guns have, we don't need interesting bosses to replace the placeholders, we don't need decent reloading animations that actually move a magazine around instead of caressing the gun, we don't need someone to come up with a decent story (artists can do that too)...

 

Stop this, it's old. 3D guys will still have plenty to do even if they stop releasing weapons every 2 weeks.

[Tempera]

I am not mistaking your brevity for wit. You expect me to treat...

 

[snip]

 

...as legitimate critique?

No. That was me pointing out how stupid what you posted was.

 

If you want legitimate critique, fine.

 

Your idea is pointless.

 

You're not doing anything to enhance the game to a significant level. You're not suggesting anything that would give the game more longevity.

 

You're not suggesting any changes to enemy types. You're not offering more mission types. You're not offering new damage systems. You're not discussing ways to add branching paths to maps.

 

You're not discussing ways to make the game more fun, despite all your claims to the contrary. What you're offering up is an aesthetic overhaul to the mod system, and a way to alienate the collector part of the playerbase, which is a significant portion of the game's playerbase.

 

If you want me to add legitimate critique to the thread, then give me something worthwhile to critique. Something such as, say, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/134890-core-issues-still-unfixed-by-damage-20/'>MJ12's suggestion on the idea of overhauling the mod system; something which actually adds value to the game.

[theGreatZamboni]

No. That was me pointing out how stupid what you posted was.

 

If you want legitimate critique, fine.

 

Your idea is pointless.

 

You're not doing anything to enhance the game to a significant level. You're not suggesting anything that would give the game more longevity.

 

You're not suggesting any changes to enemy types. You're not offering more mission types. You're not offering new damage systems. You're not discussing ways to add branching paths to maps.

 

You're not discussing ways to make the game more fun, despite all your claims to the contrary. What you're offering up is an aesthetic overhaul to the mod system, and a way to alienate the collector part of the playerbase, which is a significant portion of the game's playerbase.

 

If you want me to add legitimate critique to the thread, then give me something worthwhile to critique. Something such as, say, MJ12's suggestion on the idea of overhauling the mod system; something which actually adds value to the game.

 

 

Everything I listed here is a foundation. It creates systems that are centered on gameplay rather than drops. These systems do not need constant additions like the Mod Card system. The entities that these systems support are the means of delivering content. Making using that new Warframe mean more. Letting you try out a new gun regardless of what mods you have. This also allows for more focus on creating exciting game experiences rather than creating rewards to keep people interested. Again, ask yourself what kind of mods we will have 2 years from now. This emphasizes the point of my systems. Create core mechanics that do not need to be updated every month to keep players interested. The focus then can be taken away from randomness, away from grind and be placed on making new enemies, levels and game modes that are fun. This is what my post is about, making the game fun.

 

If you think my ideas are bad, if you have nothing to add or critique. Why are you still wasting my time? There is a way to critique without ignoring the material you are commenting on, there is a way to comment without talking in circles. Again, you say my ideas are not worthwhile. This is why you have nothing to comment on. Then please stop posting here. Me having to quote myself is becoming more than tedium.

Edited December 3, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[DaClamps]

No. That was me pointing out how stupid what you posted was.

 

If you want legitimate critique, fine.

 

Your idea is pointless.

 

You're not doing anything to enhance the game to a significant level. You're not suggesting anything that would give the game more longevity.

 

You're not suggesting any changes to enemy types. You're not offering more mission types. You're not offering new damage systems. You're not discussing ways to add branching paths to maps.

 

You're not discussing ways to make the game more fun, despite all your claims to the contrary. What you're offering up is an aesthetic overhaul to the mod system, and a way to alienate the collector part of the playerbase, which is a significant portion of the game's playerbase.

 

If you want me to add legitimate critique to the thread, then give me something worthwhile to critique. Something such as, say, MJ12's suggestion on the idea of overhauling the mod system; something which actually adds value to the game.

Aesthetic overhaul eh? I believe basic reading comprehension isn't your strong suit and you should avoid any field of study that explores this. Of course he isn't offering the new ideas you mentioned. He would have mentioned them in his post if he was. And who are you to say that a significant portion of the playerbase are collectors? Because you are? Sir, you should really not critique anyone's work until you have achieved a grade school education.

Psst, what he is adding is something called "fun". I know you enjoy grinding and such and have a short attention span consisting of "OH GOD A NEW LEVEL? NEED TO GRIND!" but most of us want to be able to have fun in this game.

Edited December 3, 2013 by DaClamps

[Tevye]

Wow, this thread has become more partisan and entrenched then ever. Let's use a fun analogy!

ThegreatZamboni!: I have an idea that's gonna make baseball fun again!

Player type A: wow great ideas! The league should hire you!

Player type B: ok, there's some neat things here, and that would make keeping up with stats easier, but how's it going to work, and how long is the season going to be delayed if this were adopted?

TGZamboni!: you don't get it, read it again.

Player type B: well, alright. What about this idea here? What if we consider a change to...

Player type C: Down with The League, they are armchair noobs without skills. Total minor leagues.

TGZamboni!: Yes, I've made allowances for that, reread my post, total change is the only way.

Player type B: But this is a throwback to the 50's era system with a grab bag of hockey and football. I don't see how that wou..

Player type C: Aw man I love football. I Wish this was more like football. Then it would be awesome!

Player type B: dude, shut it about the football, talking baseball here.

And on, and on. We are starting to talk around each other, folks, not to each other.

Let's get back to talking about the ideas in the Op, and how to make the changes that are needed.

My fundamental objection to the idea of a radical overhaul is that it would necessitate a return to closed beta, would in turn generate its own completely new series of bugs, balance issues, and player complaints and that the skill tree concept you propose has already been tried and abandoned. To take so big a step back would be disruptive, unless a way could be found to integrate the changes in a non disruptive manner.

I would like to talk about how that might be overcome. I'm not saying "woah that's a lot of work" to say that the op can't or shouldn't be done, but that the next step is to talk about how it could be done. For another analogy, if you said you want to remodel your house, and your friend says well let's start with the kitchen first, they aren't actually saying don't do the whole house, they are looking at the project in a smaller scale. Jumping back on topic, that's a bit harder here with the mods must go mentality, since that removes the in place system, but we can talk about methods of getting from here to there, right?

Something I would like to see you post on:

How will your vision of skill trees would free build choice and not be just like skill trees in the old republic or borderlands.

In what way do you envision the system functioning? Let's say for examples sake we have a Loki that we want to use for stealthy missions. How would his set up differ under your system? What greater freedoms would the player have in making his build? How free is the player to tear down that build and redo it for a new purpose? Will the player be able to specialize in say, invisibility, to the point of ignoring radial disarm entirely, and making his invisibility more powerful than the current system allows? Will utility skills be specific for each frame, with Rhino having a heavy impact option and Loki the ever sought after intruder? Will De roll out updates to the skill trees over time, as the game changes and new features come online?

Something we should all keep in mind.

We are all players, we all want to enjoy this game, and see it grow. We are all on the same side, and want the same thing here. This thread's purpose is to posit a way to get there, and to have a dialogue on it. Bashing each other is distracting and gets us no where.

Now, I'm going to to go back and reread the op in full.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Remitevji

[Rajko]

I re-read the updated top post before forming these conclusions and criticisms.

 

My take away is that mods enforce grind/similar builds and the gaining of them is random, therefore this overhaul seeks to remove them, replacing them with a system that allows players to grow stronger without enforcing grind, similar builds just to succeed, or tying progress to a random drops.  Thus mods are anathema to this approach as it cannot be successful unless mods are removed root and stem.

 

Assuming this were completely implemented:  

 

Progression would be tied to time spent playing/grinding experience, but not random drops.

 

The frustration of randomness related to the player's ability to gain in power would have been mitigated.

 

New powers or optimization options would be implemented across the board, built right in and accessible to the player limited only by level (maybe, DE could do a craft-able skill board system or some such to expand those, I'd bet it wouldn't stay the same for 2 years)

 

New abilities for weapons would be a function of weapon 'attachments' - feels too similar to mods to fit with the rest, and I personally dislike the suggested visual component of attachements, but that's not important.  Attachments are crafted somehow.

 

Some problems I see with it:

 

The suggested rework does not address rewarding gameplay directly, and that feels off because it addresses the mechanics that cause missions to become annoying rush-fests, but nothing else.  It's left assumed that once you burn it all to the ground, the ground will be fertile and grow delicious, juicy gameplay.  I think this is an oversight or assumption that better, rewarding and sustainable (meaning more can continually be added at regular intervals) gameplay will logically follow from the removal of the grindy progression system.  I don't see any reason for that to occur as a result of moving to a skill and level system to define character builds, and Warframe is dead without a draw to encourage the players to play.  I don't believe it's intended by DE, but so long as no story content system exists and the weekly updates are focused on releasing collectible 'stuff', this won't work.  It will transform a relatively empty hundreds of hours long Quest for Stuff into however long it takes to grow strong enough to get bored.  No gameplay that currently exists is exclusive or difficult to access, and those at endgame levels would almost immediately have nothing to do (assuming some progress is carried over) or be upset and stop playing at suddenly being returned to zero (despite the obvious fact that a reset is possible at any moment in beta play).  Any system that threatens to remove mods must replace them with gameplay in order for Warframe to survive the transition to the new system.

 

(FWIW, I'd assume the least drastic course would just be to convert existing frame leveling to skill points, however those would be attributed, and thus minimize the transition terrors.)

 

Similar builds would still be largely the case as players converge on those builds that provide maximum 'power'.  I'll grant that things like maglev floating elsewhere 'in spirit' makes similar power min maxing less of a sacrifice for the player doing the min-maxing.  I don't think removing the sting from the trade-off makes any sense.  You'd instead be leveraging those points that could have gone to 1 skill into another only.  If the point pool were wholly shared between all categories, you'd both be allowed to utterly gimp yourself, and more 'free', and although min maxing would still be possible, it would not be as inherently rewarded.  

 

Retaining players heavily invested in the mod system would present a very real challenge.  Even positive change is a violent and traumatic experience.  The loss of those players could present a serious short term problem for the game's survival.

 

The melee system suggestion belongs in a separate thread, it's not required for the main rework concept and isn't a total gut renovation of the in progress work.  The stances are interesting but it's not directly related, and all the Remember Me criticism it brought in was derailing for page after page.

 

The attachment system is described as being crafted well into the section explaining the attachments, so it's not immediately obvious that these will not be drops or purchased via cash shop or tied to rewards or any other method.  Further, the mock-up image has some elemental items in different categories, and it's unclear what kind of builds a player could get out of the attachment system.  It needs to be more fully explored to make sense and feel like less of a complexity nerf.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Rajko

[AlexanderEZ]

How haven't I seen this yet. It's amazing.

[theGreatZamboni]

[snip]

That is real critique. Thank you. I will respond, but it is late. here is what I have to say for now. I disagree with some aspects, because I have information you still do not. That is because my complimentary threads are still being written. I do feel that the new utilities granted via the skill tree will make the gameplay rewarding. Allowing for better free-running, better enemies and new game types to follow suit. You disagree. I understand why. But if a means to expand upon a foundation exists, it increases the plausibility and possibility that this new content can be made. The foundation as it exists does not allow for expansion, therefore we see little of it. I would ask you to read this to maybe give you a glimpse of what I mean by adding rewarding gameplay, specifically the part about Loki:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1688767

Here is the specific part:

Powers are given innately, as stated in the OP. Powers gain new utility and power as you spend points on them. But this means you cannot max every branch. Meaning you pick what powers you want depending on your style of play. If you really like Decoy, increases to it may upgrade max health, make it explode dealing damage when destroyed, reflect damage back to attackers and so on. But if you get high enough in the Decoy branch you cannot max Switch teleport, so the following style of play becomes unavailable. Switch with multiple targets using Switch Teleport. Hold and drag over a series of enemies, then switch to the location of the first while they are left where you were standing. This is not only useful for you, but actually promotes teamplay. You talk with your friends and say "Hey Ember, max out your Fireblast. I will switch teleport enemies into it." The idea being you can create real means of cooperation outside of increased drop farming.

Here I shed more light on what these trees would allow players to do. Let's assume they do make a rewarding leveling experience to compliment my system. The content is there. The end game can exist in many forms, using the systems available to showcase your mastery and provide challenge. If these systems were in place, I feel a positive trend would follow. We would have less humming and hawing about what to do with the mechanics and more talk about how to showcase them. This is where you can now take ideas people have suggested like better PVP, Clan invasions, dynamic missions, etc. I will admit that my idea's success hinges on DE following up on it. But I feel a change of pace and a new sense of wonder will stop the stagnation we currently face.

As for you comment about weapons: I again disagree. Not because it is my idea, but because I feel my images mislead some people even when accompanied by the text. So breaking it down quickly once more: By the time a gun reaches level 30 it is a lethal entity. Because weapons have innate powers they already fit a niche. By creating asymmetrical design of the way you apply modifiers, you can limit what people can do. You can avoid this:

Because someone may prefer the Lex over the Brakk, they should not be punished for using the Lex. While the Brakk may have slightly better stats, what makes it different is the mode of fire. A single shot vs. shotgun-pistol. The Lex fires slowly. If you equip a Firerate increase Core, you help hide this negative while accentuating its positives. But, if you want to create the Blast effect, you need to use the Cryo Core with Incendiary rounds. Meaning you are making the choice to forgo the fire rate increase for a unique status. Because Caustic Rounds and Incendiary rounds both are magazine modifiers, you cannot create the Gas damage type unless you use a weapon that has one of those properties innately. Meaning it makes guns with unique damage types like the Acrid/Torid, Ignis or Synapse able to do something the other guns cannot. If you put Incendiary rounds on the Torid, you can make the Gas damage type. This makes certain niches more powerful as well as providing utility vs. just pure damage. This is amplified when queuing with people. You can talk about who is bringing what and create strategies around it.

Because every gun can be accentuated, but not every gun can utilize every damage type, you truly get rid of rainbow builds and create a purpose for each gun. It also make guns like the Braton (and its variants) more viable as well. Since the Braton has stats that are more or less balanced, you can skew it to fit your style of play. Bullet hose, Crits, Elemental, Slash, etc. This means you are not only rewarded for simply using what you like, it also allows for experimentation. If you are curious about the Burston, but find you don't like it; it will not be a struggle to use it to level 30 to acquire the Mastery Points. Because certain attachments can be applied to similar guns and because the gun itself is powerful by the time it is level 30, you will never truly feel like you are having to wade through shlock to attain what you want. You may even find a use for said gun.

As for melee, it does tie into my idea greatly. Because the stances affect how you interact with the enemy via your melee, you can use the skill tree to accentuate how you use your melee. It is a total gut rework because it removes mods. But your melee now scales much more as it levels, just like guns.

This is just a quick rebuttal. I thank you for your thoughtful questions and critique. I will answer more questions you or others have, but those threads are still coming. It took 20 pages but someone actually calmly and intelligently laid out their qualms.

Edited December 3, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Luminati07]

If I could upvote that post a billion times, I would...

[AbsolutTalent]

I like

take my +1

[ErudiusNacht]

That's a very, very good way to develop the game further. IMO that will eliminate rainbow builds and such, giving way for more choices for players on how to customize their stuff. Though high rank players maybe able to abuse this, I think the journey towards achieving your goal customization will be another good motivation to keep on playing.

[WhiskeyGolf]

And yet OP chooses to ignore Kyte, again.

 

Look, I'll admit I'm not as invested as some players here. I've been playing for just up to 2 months. I'm weird in that I play for the pleasure of playing. Mods? Great to have. Frames? Something to work to for Mastery and completion. But whenever I play, more often than not I'm playing Mag, Nova, Rhino or Volt, because these are the frames I like playing the most. (Particularly Volt - he might have been terribly nerfed compared to before, which I was never around to enjoy, but I like using him. A lot.) Unlike a lot of people on these boards, I'm someone who still remembers what it was like to be a noob, and just made an account over the weekend to repeat the rookie experience of warframe.

 

Now there's a lot of dislike from OP to the mod card system, and OP proposes his skill tree system. That's fine, that's his right to do so and he's put in a great deal of work, which is commendable, but I noticed that there's something OP didn't mention - what if you screw up your skill tree build?

Allow me to explain my concern.

 

In Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer, every character you unlocked could level up, and have skill points attached to skills. You had a finite pool of points, and it was not possible to max everything (outside of occasional bugs) and so players would have to be careful in how they setup their characters. If you screwed up your build (which happened to me a few times), you had only two means of recourse: a Respec card (which was a Rare drop, and you had a random chance to get this in packs purchased from the ingame shop - thankfully with credits), or "Promote" your character class, thereby resetting your level to 0 and starting over. Which admittedly if you had good or max leveled guns, wasn't too bad, and you could level fairly easily if you knew what you were doing (or had the balls to take a level 0 character into Gold or Platinum missions, the skill to handle yourself, and the luck to pull it off).

 

In every other game I've played that has a skill tree, I've found no method of rollback once you've chosen a skillset and then realised, "S#&$, this is not the best build for me, this is not meshing with my playstyle."

 

With the Mod Cards, however, it allows us to immediately correct any mistakes to our builds that we've made, without any penalty. Suppose I setup my Rhino as a Passive Tank, but that's not working out very well for me, and I decide to rebuild him as a Stompdard spammer. I can do that without any penalty to my base stats. I have actually had more fun with the mod cards because I can keep experimenting with setups, and I will not be permanently penalised for any mistakes I have made; as soon as the match ends, I can immediately note down what works and what doesn't work, and make note of that for the future.

 

From what I've read of the skill tree, as I understand things, once you choose a path you are locked into it. In that regard, skill trees are less forgiving of mistakes. And I'll repeat my earlier disagreement - a freeform mod model like what we have now gives more scope to player creativity than skill trees or attachment slots. It allows more player emergence, like the QT/Rage combo.

 

I will repeat what I've said earlier, on the subject of min-maxing: We ain't gonna get away from it. So long as there are humans, so long as there is information, someone's going to find a more efficient way of doing things and share that with the community. That's a fact of human life, of gaming culture.

 

I agree that the guns should have leveling and increases to the stats - nothing earth shattering, but stuff that actually has a clear difference. I want to be able to compare a Lvl 1 Braton and a Level 30 Braton and see clear advantages to that fully-leveled gun - perhaps faster reload, some recoil reduction, larger mag size, maybe a critical rate & damage increase - it would really give you a sense of achievement, and let players who keep their guns not feel bad about it. I would love to continue to use my Braton, because I really liked it, but I find that the Soma generally outclasses it, which is why I eventually sold it. (Every now and then I still get tempted to get another Braton...)

 

But like Rakjo said, this is all just the loadout screen. Saying that this will improve gameplay is, I submit, misleading, because OP hasn't really addressed gameplay - he's addressed setup. Which is fine, but it's kinda like you're working on your potatoes and plate and garnishes and forgot about the steak.

 

Comparing Warframe to Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer, both games were PVE. Where ME3 shone was the how the smaller maps were designed: with few exceptions, there were few places you could camp - every where you took cover, enemies could flank you and engage. Even the glory days of Firebase White Geth Gold needed players to cover two entry points, lest they be flanked and mauled to death. I'd submit that we need a bit more of that - of areas where players can come in and get flanked. More often than not, enemies are entering from a single door, which allows me to exploit the fatal funnel concept and fill the doorway with lead, interdicting them.

 

I want something more like FEAR, with enemies fighting cooperatively. I want to feel as though I'm being attacked at once by two fireteams from two different vectors practicing fire and maneuver, instead of eight enemies who're popping out one by one for me to die. This would ramp up the difficulty - without even touching anything relating to level scaling or armor. Smart enemies would be fun to fight, because you'd have to work for your wins.

 

Case in point, Tucker's Kobolds. Link here: http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

 

Quoting the webpage: "In all the games that I've seen, the worst, most horrible, most awful beyond-comparison opponents ever seen were often weaker than the characters who fought them. They were simply well-armed and intelligent beings who were played by the DM to be utterly ruthless and clever. Tucker's kobolds were like that."

Edited December 3, 2013 by WhiskeyGolf

[Empiren]

[snip]

 

Easy workaround to your ME3 problem: enable free resets of skill tree at any time.

 

 

Addressing game-play was(i thought) pretty obvious from the setup. I don't know what else he could do, since this is more or less a "foundation" topic.

 

-K let me just stop you right here.

Warframe is not mass effect. Do no compare and say "it should be like this" for any game. it just never ends well and the games really aren't similar enough to do so.

-----------

 

Now for tuckers kobolds, it's really just the illusion of difficulty thanks to the imaginary setting of D&D. The dungeon master in those games can make any character as cheap or as unfair as he wants to, with little penalty outside of the group just not liking him.

 

Applying that to video game ai is just stupid. No matter the company, programming such sophisticated ai would be next to impossible with the resources DE has, much less useless as the player wouldn't have any fun.

[Freelancer27]

I would really love to see these reworks get implemented. Seeing how the old Warframe works on its customization actually attracted me a lot.

 

The skill system which replaces the common defense mods such as Shields, Health and Armor in addition of an Ability customization at the side really impresses me.

 

But what attracted me the most is the weapon customization, which grants the full view of the weapon at hand, either Ranged or Melee, you can get all what you need through raw hardware. Unlike the current mod system where there are 8 slots and you oddly put carbon replica cards on the dashboard of every weapon, which is boring for me.

 

The suggested system proves to be superior toward the current mod system due to its fit and true movement of the weapon, visual models are merely secondary, but adding additional components such as magazines, barrels, scopes, chambers, cores, and stocks just wants to make you feel that you want to make more in the foundry, test them yourself and see to it that you capable of fighting specific enemies that defeated you before.

 

The melee system is astonishing, I just really want to change the melee movement of my warframes, instead of seeing them doing similar attacks, over and over. If giving new animations as a customization to the weapon isn't good enough, you can simply outfit it with combo moves used in common fighting games, which bystanders watched me saying, like "Devil May Cry". This really spices the melee system very greatly.

 

I am really, REALLY, REALLY wanted to see this system implemented at Update 12.

 

Like the rest of the players who saw this thread:

 

I WANT IN THIS GAME, RIGHT FREAKIN' NOW!

[Scintilus]

I'll keep upvoting this!  :)

[Freelancer27]

Posted this as my blog for the wiki. :D

[Calayne]

-snip snip snip-

 

-snip snip snip snip-

 

These two are now officially among my favourite forum-ers. They shed a lot of light about the argument, with a healthy dose of humour to boot.

 

I do agree with Rajko's point about gameplay itself not being immersive or fun, by definition. Right now, it's as he puts, a "Grind fest". The real problem with the core mechanics is something I've thought of before and made a thread about, which I'll try to summarize here:

 

Essentially, this game lacks challenge in the truest sense of the word: A contrast, though not comparison, would be Ninja Gaiden. The crucial bit is this: The enemies in that game are very, very intelligent, and you are very, very deadly. Almost all of your enemies are just as deadly, in fact. The only way you can ever hope to compete would be to be smarter than them, with a little element of timing here and there.

 

But there's one other thing that Warframe takes away from the player that a game like Ninja Gaiden may not: Player choice. The whole problem was exacerbated in the old damage 1.0: Everything staggers, knocks you down, or stuns you in some way, effectively taking away player agency. In Damage 2.0, this has been mitigated somewhat by proc-chance: Runners no longer stagger you 100%, Grineer blows n longer stagger you 100%; Neither do ours, either, as a matter of fact.

 

And therein lies our problem: They cannot get any more difficult as it is now than having huge DPS enemies and Ancients to constantly knock you down as Chargers maul you into oblivion (Which, thankfully, also no longer have 100% stagger). But the core issue is still there. They have not come up with a way to make enemies even more deadly, more coordinated, as one of the above posters mentioned. And that is because we don't have a say in the matter. Our deaths seem like a &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; fluke most times: Scorpion dragged you down, and Grineers mobbed you; Heavies knocked you down, and Grineers mobbed you; Ancient knocked you down, and Chargers mobbed you; Shockwave knocked you down, and MOAs mobbed you.

 

The trend is pretty vicious, though I have to admit it is not exclusively such the case: I speak merely from my own limited experience.

 

The closest semblance to real tactics that make gameplay fun is Lech Krill: Attacks you can dodge (Unlike Phorid, without some ridiculous speed mods, or Vor without sticking to cover like a Tenno starfish), patterns you can exploit, punishing damage (For some of us who are squishier than most).

 

Unfortunately, that gets old very, very fast. I believe that's because the core issues persist: Since we cannot react to danger as well as we should be able to, the enemies cannot be any more original than that to kill us. The recent Anti-Moas introduce some level of added difficulty for the aerially challenged (Read: No one), and introduced some variety in the mix.

 

But ultimately, like the Mod system, there is a deeper issue. That issue is simply: We cannot react to dangers, not truly. We take things lying down. And if we behave that way, the God-powered War machines of the Orokin, how much better can we expect our opponents to be?

 

 

Edit: here's the link to the old thread, for the curious. It's quite poorly defined, now that I've seen Zamboni's as well as many of the other forum-er's analyses. It is horribly outdated, but I think the main issue with gameplay and difficulty still persist: They're just less evident now, thanks to the proc-chance system.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/120437-blocking-side-stepping-and-the-art-of-fear/

 

To tie it into the system proposed by the OP, this is simply one of the basic problems Warframe has, which hasn't been addressed, to make it more fun and engaging. This, in addition to the changes in melee, the risk-reward/grind-reward sytem and the core way people make progress with their equipment should be able to positively give Warframe a big step forward.

 

At least, that's what I think. Also, big laugh from the Warbros satire. Absolutely love that image!

Edited December 3, 2013 by Calayne

[Kyte]

But to fix that the loadout system is entirely irrelevant. What fixes it is better blocking, evasion and health recovery systems. There're threads about those already.

There's this fundamental misconception that the loadout system actually matters in the real gameplay. Skill tree or mods, once the mission starts and your abilities are chosen the difference is ephemeral.

If you want to fix gameplay, then fix gameplay.

 

---

 

Incidentally, I came to a small realization wrt attachments vs mods and having every mods/equivalent show a visual indicator in the weapon:

How are you supposed to depict Serration in a Kunai, Barrel Diffusion in a Shuriken, Eagle Eye in the Vectis, anything involving gun barrels in the Dera, Pressure Point, Whirlwind on Kestrel, Fast Hands/Quickdraw/etc, Split Chamber in Dread, Seeking Force in the Strun Wraith, all the anti-faction mods, ammo mutations, etc?

It's easy to go "Oh, add a scope for zoom" when you're thinking about the Braton, but the mod system adds a lot of esoteric weapon/mod combinations (plus some weird weapons, plus some weird mods) that would be very hard (or impossible!) to depict visually.

 

(And how much artist time would that consume for every weapon/mod combination, at that)

Edited December 3, 2013 by Kyte