A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Quasar-Sandwich]

Although I believe that your skill tree is magnificent and would be a great implementation, I don't know how I feel about getting rid of all mods upright. I would think that this type of update would need a wipe of all the weapons' levels, potatoes, forma, exp booster purchases, and warframes' stats. This might piss a lot of people off, like myself, and be a big turn off for some people. I also think that this might incite a lot of rage for the people that have bought a lot of mods for plat. They wouldn't have that plat back because that plat is now in the hands of anther person.

[Nexus06]

   I loved the old skill tree D:

[ScorchedIce]

I can't get something about this thread out of my mind. when you mention that potatoes and formas would serve no purpouse and they would be eliminated in your system bugs me, because generally speaking, there's effort, money, and time into those things, they could easily be reused like this

 

Reactors would double the points you have to spend in you Warframe's skill trees,
Catalyst would do the same for weapons given they'd have sort of a skill tree to modify stats like fire rate, crit chance, damage, etc - or, could give extra slots for attachments.
And formas could be reused to boost up even more the stats of your Warframes / weapons (and it would actually kind of make sense because you would be literally re-shaping their structures).

[ensignvidiot]

Although I believe that your skill tree is magnificent and would be a great implementation, I don't know how I feel about getting rid of all mods upright. I would think that this type of update would need a wipe of all the weapons' levels, potatoes, forma, exp booster purchases, and warframes' stats. This might &!$$ a lot of people off, like myself, and be a big turn off for some people. I also think that this might incite a lot of rage for the people that have bought a lot of mods for plat. They wouldn't have that plat back because that plat is now in the hands of anther person.

 

 

Well. with this new system being level based, any gear and frames you have at level 30 would have points to spend immediately. I'd reckon Potatoes would give you like 10 extra points on trees, or an extra mod slot for guns, and a few open slots for Melee Style (or allow "style blending").

 

For forma... that would be tough. Maybe repurpose a modslot on a rifle (turn a barrel open slot, unto another magazine slot for more elemental damage)?

 

And im not sure how to compensate on a melee weapon.

[Volthorne]

Well. with this new system being level based, any gear and frames you have at level 30 would have points to spend immediately. I'd reckon Potatoes would give you like 10 extra points on trees, or an extra mod slot for guns, and a few open slots for Melee Style (or allow "style blending").

 

For forma... that would be tough. Maybe repurpose a modslot on a rifle (turn a barrel open slot, unto another magazine slot for more elemental damage)?

 

And im not sure how to compensate on a melee weapon.

You could have the Formas make it so you can use mods from weapon-classes that your weapon does not belong to. Say if you're got a Sobek, but you don't like the barrel attachments and think something from the rifle-class (semi-auto/burst subclass) would be better? Forma. Blam. Now your Sobek can only use rifle attachments on the barrel.

 

It should be very easy to implement something similar on melee weapons.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Volthorne

[tmtke]

You could have the Formas make it so you can use mods from weapon-classes that your weapon does not belong to. Say if you're got a Sobek, but you don't like the barrel attachments and think something from the rifle-class (semi-auto/burst subclass) would be better? Forma. Blam. Now your Sobek can only use rifle attachments on the barrel.

 

And can I revert this change? If I can, how? Because I was able to re-forma my slot if the outcome was bad.

[Volthorne]

And can I revert this change? If I can, how? Because I was able to re-forma my slot if the outcome was bad.

Oh, hell yes. It should work almost exactly like Formas do now, being able to re-Forma if you absolutely wanted to, or if the attachment set you have access to isn't working out like you wanted. Just apply another Forma, and then pick another category (and sub-class where applicable ie: semi-auto/burst, full-atuo/machinegun, or sniper sub-classes for the rifle category) of attachments.

 

This would, of course, necessitate inherent negatives on some parts to limit/erradicate the over-powering of weapons (sniper barrels could increase accuracy and recoil, for example, so sticking one on a shotgun might not be the best choice), and maybe also restrict it to only attachments from the same slot (primaries would never be able to equip a secondary attachment).

Edited December 18, 2013 by Volthorne

[TriGgeR77]

Good post.

 

I like the concept, however, I'm not sure I agree with the implementation.

 

My main gripe is tieing unlocks to mastery rank.

Mastery rank cannot be viewed as a "player level" of any sort. It takes way too long past a certain cap (I'd say around rank 6) to give a proper sense of progression. It'd mean of vast majority of players would hit a plateau and be stuck in the same state for a long time.

Unless the mastery rank gets a rework too, of course. Otherwise, it'd mean even more grind, because now gaining mastery ranks becomes required.

 

Then, I think weapon customisation could use more slots. Maybe a 'Stock' slots affecting recoil/spread and mobility, etc.

I also think that with your system, we would see too much "collisions" between attachments of the same type. By that, I mean that some attachments would be vastly superiors to others (maybe not in term of raw stats if the balancing is done right, but in term of utility).

For instance, Split Chamber would be the go-to choice for every barrels of every gun (except maybe the vectis which could use Primed/Charged Chamber). In other words, we would still have mandatory attachments (instead of mandatory mods).

Nothing that can't be solved with a bit of tweaking, hopefully.

 

 

Other than that, as much as I'd like to see this come true, I fear it can't be done, at least not without extreme caution, communication, and, last but not least, compensation for all the real money that has been invested in the current system.

Before trading, it would have been a lot easier. But now, some people have spent inconsiderate amounts of money buying mod cards.

Do nothing and the buyer will be cheated because he spent plats for naught.

Revert the trade and the seller will feel cheated because he earned those plats legitimately.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution, but DE would need to come up with one before even thinking of implementing your system.

[Varzy]

I cannot see DE removing the mod system, but it seems like much of what you're describing is already compatible with it. In fact, the excess complexity feels like it stems from your desire to do away with the mod system.

 

Like, for the Warframes, all that would need to be done is to divide the mod zone into Aura, 4 Ability slots, and a further 3 x4 blocks denoting Warframe (Health, Shields, etc), Powers (Power Strength, Efficiency, Range) and Utility (Stuff like intruder or Knockdown recovery or Equilibrium). Frankly it's absurd that there is only, effectively, 6 slots for Warframe customization if you want to use all your abilities.

 

I know this doesn't solve your argument that players are slaves to the RNG (I suffered greatly until I finally found a serration, so I feel you), but it does adopt your position of including utility and variety and skill and fun in the gameplay.

[LightstealKnight]

Good ideas, but I think the game mechanics as they are are quite interesting and unique.  I do not know many other games that use mods and level up gear the way that warframe currently does.

 

I get what you mean by extrinsic/intrinsic rewards.  Everyone should watch this including DE devs.

 

 

 

 

Direct link:  

 

more weapons/mods/frames are not a good direction to go from here

 

Rather, DE should invest time in content to USE all of the farmed gear that you got (a reason to farm).  Difficult end game content (like they are trying to with PvP) and such.  

 

 

Edited December 18, 2013 by Enemy1

[Aranhor]

Awesome!

[ensignvidiot]

After watching that video, I realized I play warframe, to farm for parts and gear, just so I can kill stuff HOW I WANT TO KILL STUFF.

I want a story, but I don't care in the meantime.

I mean, I spent a good 50 hours of gameplay trying to find a weapon that would behave like a modern assault rifle. Something like the FN SCAR 7.62, an Acurrate, HARD HITTING, fast firing weapon. And after Grinding, and grinding, and grinding I finally Have a Braton, Prime, with 2 Formas and a potato. I threw on a Max Serration, Speed Trigger, and Metal Auger, and was delited with what I created.

Even though I could not stand farming for Fusion cores, and credits to level the aforementioned Mods, once I attainted the goal, I was happy. And then did random missions just to help people out, or to see how long I last in the game.

Currently, my Sole motivation for Warframe is its gameplay, an element that can quickly become something that no longer a thing that keeps me interested. Seeing this game continue to Evolve is what prompted me to dump Real Life money into the game and become a Founder (Speaking of which, where is mah Headband? >:D). One part of gameplay is farming for Mods, to make yourself usefully to do things that are worth doing (like getting a new Frame, Enjoying Events, and Killing Stuff... lotsa stuff).

I want the Mod grind gone, and replaced with something that more directly rewards me with progress and stuff that keeps the ADHD crack baby in me entertained and happy (something that doesn't involved 100+ Well of Lifes in my Inventory).

Zamboni's System is the Foundation for a system that can accomplish exactly that.

Honestly, the Dev Team would need just 1 thing after this foundation is put into play:

A full, Cohesive story that we can enjoy

I feel that, without it, after im done with my self-imposed goals... ill be done with Warframe.

I will keep this Legend alive and on Page 1, for as long as I can come up with intelligent posts for this thread

Edited December 19, 2013 by ensignvidiot

[AFKKittyPawa]

Honestly I didn't have the patience to read all of it so I only got bits and parts of it.

But from what I've seen, it seems that there is indeed quite a problem. The thing is, is it possible to attract DE's attention on this. Of course it's all good to offer another system, many players would agree on this, but at the same time, if it's not even looked at by DE, it's all for naught.

Then again, there's another issue at hand, if DE does look at this problem and does admit it's system might not be the best (not the easiest of things to do, don't count on it all too much) then how to choose the best new system?

Obviously, this isn't the only system that was offered, maybe not even the best one (only time and testing can tell that). So how does DE choose? A vote? Something that costs the less effort to make the change? 

If it were possible to get their attention, than maybe, just maybe all of this would be possible. After all, I don't think it's impossible to change, they already did it once, and it's still a beta version, a version where they are still undergoing extensive testing.

I know it may be hard but please dont blame them all the time. Sure they made some mistakes (sometimes quite daunting perhaps) but at the same time, you are playing a beta version of a game, something that is not fully developped and still undergoing massive changes with every signle patch. It is very possible for it to change to something very different on the next patch, be it good or dreadful. 

So always remember to keep it cool, screaming, yelling and ranting do not get positive attention (not that I'm saying that this thread is doing that, it's quite suprisingly calm and cool-headed if you ask me) and try and get DE's attention. Somehow.

You just have to hope for the best, Warframe has great potentiel, everyone will agree on that, or else, why in the world would we have started playing it in the first place?

I think I'm done here.

[theGreatZamboni]

My thread expounding on my weapon rework is here:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/151053-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe-weapon-spotlight/

 

As I have with this thread I will be maintaining and updating it to better explain the ideas on display.

Edited December 19, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[lucio1019]

I don't like this idea.

I really enjoy the freedom to do whatever I want to my frames/guns now.

Sure there will be bad choice, but it is STILL a choice. 

You cannot just take choice away because you think it is bad.

It is a game, not school, not job. 

To play game is not "To be the BEST OF ALL." at least not to me.

I just want to explore all the possibilities an imagination world can provide. Btw, I still have a build close to your build on the first page on my Rhino and it is surprisely useful in certain situation.

[ensignvidiot]

I don't like this idea.

I really enjoy the freedom to do whatever I want to my frames/guns now.

Sure there will be bad choice, but it is STILL a choice.

You cannot just take choice away because you think it is bad.

It is a game, not school, not job.

To play game is not "To be the BEST OF ALL." at least not to me.

I just want to explore all the possibilities an imagination world can provide. Btw, I still have a build close to your build on the first page on my Rhino and it is surprisely useful in certain situation.

He isnt taking choices away, he is giving you more freedom to make the choices you want to make, without having to compromise between must have mods, and personal style choices.

Its like you read a few lines and then skipped to reply

Edited December 21, 2013 by ensignvidiot

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Holy crap. You've spent a lot of time on this, and it shows.

 

I must admit, you are right about the mods. As much as I smile thinking about how high I can crank up a rifle's damage with Serration/Heavy Cal/Split Chamber, it's becoming increasingly hard to ignore that the variety, the whole reason I started playing this game, suffers for it.

 

Here's hoping DE takes this to heart. I know they're trying, even if they stumble a bit.

[BlueSilkMetallic]

Like your ideas (thread opener)

 

Would also be cool too have different meele styles like jade empire :)

Edited December 21, 2013 by Chupachab

[lucio1019]

He isnt taking choices away, he is giving you more freedom to make the choices you want to make, without having to compromise between must have mods, and personal style choices.

Its like you read a few lines and then skipped to reply

 

In my dictionay, any restriction IS "taking away the freedom".

You do notice he is proposing a "skill tree" which means, ppl will only have certain amount of skill point to spend. 

It does feel some illusantion about "more freedom". But if as the main post proposed, "forcus now will not share a slot with redirection" and combine with the idea of "limited skill point", the result will be "player could only pick either forcus or redirection without the possibiity to take both."

Why? Becaue since the slot is not shared, player will have to open new slot by putting skill points into the skill trees. If you put points into power tree, you might not have enough points into defense tree.

This is the restriction I see.

So, NO to this change.

[theGreatZamboni]

In my dictionay, any restriction IS "taking away the freedom".

You do notice he is proposing a "skill tree" which means, ppl will only have certain amount of skill point to spend. 

It does feel some illusantion about "more freedom". But if as the main post proposed, "forcus now will not share a slot with redirection" and combine with the idea of "limited skill point", the result will be "player could only pick either forcus or redirection without the possibiity to take both."

Why? Becaue since the slot is not shared, player will have to open new slot by putting skill points into the skill trees. If you put points into power tree, you might not have enough points into defense tree.

This is the restriction I see.

So, NO to this change.

 

I feel you are misunderstanding the bulk of what my proposal entails. If you give someone 400 mods to customize their Warframe, about only 10% of them are going to be viable, because they simply outclass the others. It is in your failure to comprehend the entirety of the proposed system which leads you to this misinformed conclusion. Misquoting the text you are critiquing does not help your cause either. You are looking at the idea through a very narrow scope, missing the reasoning behind the choices proposed. The attempt to create real choice, give room for lesser more utility modifiers, remove grind and create sustainability is what my ideas are about. Quality>Quantity, fewer more potent choices are better than 400 superficial ones. Your failure to grasp these concepts, coupled with your predetermined bias ensure you will not see the merit in attempts at curing something that is most assuredly plaguing the entire game. Just because DE made it, does not make it perfect. There was a system before the Mod Card system. Even with tweaks, issues will remain, thus the want to take the focus off drop based progression. While the OP does not delve into minutia, it is comprehensive enough to showcase the ideas. Ideas that are being expounded upon to better help detractors understand the flaws of the current system and how any changes made outside of complete removal will spell doom for the project.

 

Edited December 21, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[lucio1019]

I feel you are misunderstanding the bulk of what my proposal entails. If you give someone 400 mods to customize their Warframe, about only 10% of them are going to be viable, because they simply outclass the others. It is in your failure to comprehend the entirety of the proposed system which leads you to this misinformed conclusion. Misquoting the text you are critiquing does not help your cause either. You are looking at the idea through a very narrow scope, missing the reasoning behind the choices proposed. The attempt to create real choice, give room for lesser more utility modifiers, remove grind and create sustainability. Your failure to grasp these concepts, coupled with your predetermined bias ensure you will not see the merit in attempts at curing something that is most assuredly plaguing the entire game. Just because DE made it, does not make it perfect. There was a system before the Mod Card system. Even with tweaks, issues will remain, thus the want to take the focus off drop based progression. While the OP does not delve into minutia, it is comprehensive enough to showcase the ideas. Ideas that are being expounded upon to better help detractors understand the flaws of the current system and how any changes made outside of complete removal will spell doom for the project.

 

 

A choice is a choice, good or bad. It is player's choice. It is up to the player to make the choice.

The system we have not can be consider as a "skill points system without trees to tell you what to do."

For example, Ember, DE can make player have 6 mods slot to mod with and "force" the player to have all the powers equiped.

The balance about offensive and high damage must be on player's hand, not on some damn stupid tree system which decided by the designer to decide.

[theGreatZamboni]

A choice is a choice, good or bad. It is player's choice. It is up to the player to make the choice.

The system we have not can be consider as a "skill points system without trees to tell you what to do."

For example, Ember, DE can make player have 6 mods slot to mod with and "force" the player to have all the powers equiped.

The balance about offensive and high damage must be on player's hand, not on some damn stupid tree system which decided by the designer to decide.

 

Assume my system is implemented tomorrow, fully realized. What is your issue with it? By asking this I am trying to extract why you are opposed to it.

[dashashou]

One simple question , How long did it take them to redo the market tabs? 

 

and they had to hire a new guy to make this happen .

 

 And another one How long has the armor scaling been a problem ? 

 

This better system will NEVER NEVER , be adapted cause it's beyond them as game designers , the proof is in the decomed -  ammo boxes .  

[theGreatZamboni]

One simple question , How long did it take them to redo the market tabs? 

 

and they had to hire a new guy to make this happen .

 

 And another one How long has the armor scaling been a problem ? 

 

This better system will NEVER NEVER , be adapted cause it's beyond them as game designers , the proof is in the decomed -  ammo boxes .  

 

I feel like this is the case sometimes, and the new market isn't even that good (no back tabs to previous menus). But you can't argue about the potential. This game has the potential to be great or the potential to die in a few short months due to incompetence or the inability to take criticism. Maybe both. I tried to refrain from the conversation going in this direction as it does no one any favors to say it is impossible, when it really isn't. But you are correct until they show us otherwise. I feel these ideas are less about preference and more about creating the systems they have been struggling to implement and manage given the current themes/design philosophies on display. They play to what Warframe is about and are sustainable, if not flat out better.

[Neruell]

Any guaranty the new system will be better or at least the same?