Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, darklord122 said:

You'll do anything but prove yourself huh?

Alright then.

Don’t forget to try against different enemy factions

edit: Oh, and using different kits as well. Every change you make has the potential to impact the perceived effectiveness of that build on that gun

Edited February 10 by Merkranire

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Don’t forget to try against different enemy factions

At this point Ill just be convinced you cant even build a sheev.

Can't even show his own results he is proud of lmao.

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

At this point Ill just be convinced you cant even build a sheev.

Can't even show his own results he is proud of lmao.

You’re far too gracious by just trying the build, don’t overwhelm me with your kindness

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

You’re far too gracious by just trying the build, don’t overwhelm me with your kindness

You are so gracious to show you can play the basic game, Don't overwhelm everyone with your top tier buildcrafting

[Merkranire]

3 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

You are so gracious to show you can play the basic game, Don't overwhelm everyone with your top tier buildcrafting

Certainly seemed difficult to even suggest that it was an option to build without overwhelming power and how that can be used to further gameplay enjoyment, but I’ll gladly step out of the limelight so long as you understand that there are alternatives that exist even if you had no idea and just sort of bull-in-a-chinashop the stuff that’s got a bit of nuance to it

Edited February 10 by Merkranire

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

22 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

My solution is “Know what you’re built for”.

Ya know, there's this other complaint I've often heard about Warframe: that people don't know what power level they're going to need for content. It's confusing.

There are no real "levels" for characters.

* Player Mastery Rank is completely unreliable and unrelated to performance in missions.
* Warframe level is meaningless, except for having access to all the abilities by rank 10, and some minor base stat boosts (and everyone builds for rank 30 regardless of the content, and you can't retroactively change this to a lower number later, so it's not something you can change to appeal to your concerns anyway.)
* Weapon level is meaningless because the stats of the weapon don't change with levels... only mods change how much damage a weapon is doing.
* Enemy level is unreliable, because for most players, they don't know the stats of the enemies at each level bracket (you'd need a database-like memory, or go deep into the math on a wiki)... AND they don't know how their mod stats relate to how much damage they're doing to those enemies. Will a 2* Serration be enough damage on a *insert gun* to kill at enemy level X? Or will they need to have a 3* Serration, and an elemental mod, and crit chance increase?

These are all extremely nebulous concepts in Warframe.

The simulacrum is a testing ground, sure, but even after seven years of using it, I don't get meaningful information out of it. It lets tests be performed in sterile controlled environments that never match actual gameplay, even with AI turned on.

You know what most players do? They just stick the most powerful stuff they've got on their gear, and try to go through the game until it's not strong enough. If they've maxxed out all of their mods, and max leveled their frame and weapons, they may look at the selection of Mods they have equipped, and change things up... perhaps going to youtube to research build guides that they haven't thought of.

 

To achieve what you're asking for is asking A LOT from players who just want to have casual fun in Warframe, an already complex game without taking your stipulations into account.

[darklord122]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Certainly seemed difficult to even suggest that it was an option to build without overwhelming power and how that can be used to further gameplay enjoyment, but I’ll gladly step out of the limelight so long as you understand that there are alternatives that exist even if you had no idea and just sort of bull-in-a-chinashop the stuff that’s got a bit of nuance to it

Alternatives do exist yes, You get angry at every alternative that isnt yours.

So feel free to stop out of the limelight if you want, The nuance of higher tiered builds elude you and only further your frustrations after all.

[Merkranire]

Just now, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Ya know, there's this other complaint I've often heard about Warframe: that people don't know what power level they're going to need for content. It's confusing.

There are no real "levels" for characters.

* Player Mastery Rank is completely unreliable and unrelated to performance in missions.
* Warframe level is meaningless, except for having access to all the abilities by rank 10, and some minor base stat boosts (and everyone builds for rank 30 regardless of the content, and you can't retroactively change this to a lower number later, so it's not something you can change to appeal to your concerns anyway.)
* Weapon level is meaningless because the stats of the weapon don't change with levels... only mods change how much damage a weapon is doing.
* Enemy level is unreliable, because for most players, they don't know the stats of the enemies at each level bracket (you'd need a database-like memory, or go deep into the math on a wiki)... AND they don't know how their mod stats relate to how much damage they're doing to those enemies. Will a 2* Serration be enough damage on a *insert gun* to kill at enemy level X? Or will they need to have a 3* Serration, and an elemental mod, and crit chance increase?

These are all extremely nebulous concepts in Warframe.

The simulacrum is a testing ground, sure, but even after seven years of using it, I don't get meaningful information out of it. It lets tests be performed in sterile controlled environments that never match actual gameplay, even with AI turned on.

You know what most players do? They just stick the most powerful stuff they've got on their gear, and try to go through the game until it's not strong enough. If they've maxxed out all of their mods, and max leveled their frame and weapons, they may look at the selection of Mods they have equipped, and change things up... perhaps going to youtube to research build guides that they haven't thought of.

 

To achieve what you're asking for is asking A LOT from players who just want to have casual fun in Warframe, an already complex game without taking your stipulations into account.

If you’re going to try and build from the top down, it’s going to be confusing; hence the constant suggestion to start from the baseline and build up.

That baseline isn’t going to move, the enemies are the same, the levels are the same, the objectives are the same, the fundamental damage types and what enemies are weak to are the same and is how the Simulacrum can provide a feel in the first place even if it’s not equivilant to being in the mission, the mods and Arcanes don’t change except Rivens, and if you tell me the game’s designed around them I’m going to raise an eyebrow.

The only thing that changes is the player, how they build for that content and how they play. I got my ass handed to me when I first started trying to find those points, it’s why I’m trying to give a rough starting point with that Argonak build because even though not everyone plays like I do with all the switching of gear and bouncing around, it should still provide a second understandable and modifiable baseline for higher-level content since completely modless won’t cut it (though those bonuses can definitely help)

[darklord122]

23 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Ya know, there's this other complaint I've often heard about Warframe: that people don't know what power level they're going to need for content. It's confusing.

There are no real "levels" for characters.

* Player Mastery Rank is completely unreliable and unrelated to performance in missions.
* Warframe level is meaningless, except for having access to all the abilities by rank 10, and some minor base stat boosts (and everyone builds for rank 30 regardless of the content, and you can't retroactively change this to a lower number later, so it's not something you can change to appeal to your concerns anyway.)
* Weapon level is meaningless because the stats of the weapon don't change with levels... only mods change how much damage a weapon is doing.
* Enemy level is unreliable, because for most players, they don't know the stats of the enemies at each level bracket (you'd need a database-like memory, or go deep into the math on a wiki)... AND they don't know how their mod stats relate to how much damage they're doing to those enemies. Will a 2* Serration be enough damage on a *insert gun* to kill at enemy level X? Or will they need to have a 3* Serration, and an elemental mod, and crit chance increase?

These are all extremely nebulous concepts in Warframe.

The simulacrum is a testing ground, sure, but even after seven years of using it, I don't get meaningful information out of it. It lets tests be performed in sterile controlled environments that never match actual gameplay, even with AI turned on.

You know what most players do? They just stick the most powerful stuff they've got on their gear, and try to go through the game until it's not strong enough. If they've maxxed out all of their mods, and max leveled their frame and weapons, they may look at the selection of Mods they have equipped, and change things up... perhaps going to youtube to research build guides that they haven't thought of.

 

To achieve what you're asking for is asking A LOT from players who just want to have casual fun in Warframe, an already complex game without taking your stipulations into account.

Just gonna mention his build struggles in base level Arbitrations, It can barely kill unarmored infested enemies and drones and cant even take the overguard away from an Eximus unit, At level 70 and further it struggles to even deal with one enemy let alone a horde. Thus slowing the entire team down instead of "playing with them." Actively felt bad for everyone else involved.
His own philosophy is to go in, Slow everyone else down, Complain about their builds outperforming his and then doing slight adjustments to sit at the baseline increase of enemies and repeating the process again.

It would be funny if it wasn't self evident.

Edited February 10 by darklord122

[Aruquae]

23 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Just gonna mention his build struggles in base level Arbitrations, It can barely kill unarmored infested enemies and drones and cant even take the overguard away from an Eximus unit, At level 70 and further it struggles to even deal with one enemy let alone a horde. Thus slowing the entire team down instead of "playing with them." Actively felt bad for everyone else involved.
His own philosophy is to go in, Slow everyone else down, Complain about their builds outperforming his and then doing slight adjustments to sit at the baseline increase of enemies and repeating the process again.

It would be funny if it wasn't self evident.

Hold up… so all of that “We shouldn’t be OP” wasn’t a choice, but the fact that they can’t build a gun correctly?

No, this is absurd, I thought you were simply nerfing yourself for the sake of fun. Just do what I accidentally did: Equip a dragon key that reduces your damage then completely forget you ever equipped it. 

[Merkranire]

25 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Just gonna mention his build struggles in base level Arbitrations, It can barely kill unarmored infested enemies and drones and cant even take the overguard away from an Eximus unit, At level 70 and further it struggles to even deal with one enemy let alone a horde. Thus slowing the entire team down instead of "playing with them." Actively felt bad for everyone else involved.
His own philosophy is to go in, Slow everyone else down, Complain about their builds outperforming his and then doing slight adjustments to sit at the baseline increase of enemies and repeating the process again.

It would be funny if it wasn't self evident.

And this would be why I wanted you to test it yourself. Now that you’ve done it, you can see what you would choose to change, but you’re also not destroying everything, so if you start destroying everything, you’ve got a baseline to return to

[Merkranire]

28 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Just gonna mention his build struggles in base level Arbitrations, It can barely kill unarmored infested enemies and drones and cant even take the overguard away from an Eximus unit.

Man you make this difficult…. Did you even try it against a different faction or did you think “Infested is the easiest, I’ll only try that one”, did you know Overguard has a weakness to void, and did you try Arbitrations?

[darklord122]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

And this would be why I wanted you to test it yourself. Now that you’ve done it, you can see what you would choose to change, but you’re also not destroying everything, so if you start destroying everything, you’ve got a baseline to return to

Not destroying everything? It can't even kill basic enemies. You are describing basic buildcrafting but when anyone outperforms you, you complain. Its funny how any amount of freedom anyone else has is bad but you limiting everything is good. This is laughable.

At this point any word from you has little point. My points where already proven pages ago.

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

Not destroying everything? It can't even kill basic enemies. You are describing basic buildcrafting but when anyone outperforms you, you complain. Its funny how any amount of freedom anyone else has is bad but you limiting everything is good. This is laughable.

At this point any word from you has little point. My points where already proven pages ago.

To destroy or to not destroy everything is at the heart of this topic

[darklord122]

5 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Hold up… so all of that “We shouldn’t be OP” wasn’t a choice, but the fact that they can’t build a gun correctly?

No, this is absurd, I thought you were simply nerfing yourself for the sake of fun. Just do what I accidentally did: Equip a dragon key that reduces your damage then completely forget you ever equipped it. 

Basically yes, He will then re-adjust slightly and go back in. Either further slowing the game down or just barely being at the baseline in a level growing mission.

Good point with the dragon key, It does work well for those situations.

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, darklord122 said:

Basically yes, He will then re-adjust slightly and go back in. Either further slowing the game down or just barely being at the baseline in a level growing mission.

Good point with the dragon key, It does work well for those situations.

Oh yes, I’ll re-adjust slightly and do even worse.

That was sarcasm, by the way. You’ve got the gun, you’ve got the build, you can see what happens according to the damage types and enemies fought, and yet you’re still thinking in such narrow terms.

I didn’t expect much when I told you to try, but this takes the cake

[darklord122]

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

To destroy or to not destroy everything is at the heart of this topic

The heart of your topic was to play with teammates.

All you've done to prove is that you drag them down, Then get mad when they outperform you.

So just keep doing that, Free world after all.

[Merkranire]

Just now, darklord122 said:

The heart of your topic was to play with teammates.

All you've done to prove is that you drag them down, Then get mad when they outperform you.

So just keep doing that, Free world after all.

It’s a free world and I have consideration for those I join, unlike you. I’m not trying to make their gameplay worse, I’m trying to leave room for it to happen in the first place. The heart of the topic is nukes taking everything away, and part of that is the fact that you’re sidelining your teammates because you have no idea what you’re built for

[darklord122]

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

It’s a free world and I have consideration for those I join, unlike you. I’m not trying to make their gameplay worse, I’m trying to leave room for it to happen in the first place. The heart of the topic is nukes taking everything away, and part of that is the fact that you’re sidelining your teammates because you have no idea what you’re built for

"Consideration" "Slows the game down by not building properly and actively being unable to contribute."

Mhm Mhm.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 5 minutos, Merkranire dijo:

It’s a free world and I have consideration for those I join, unlike you. I’m not trying to make their gameplay worse, I’m trying to leave room for it to happen in the first place. The heart of the topic is nukes taking everything away, and part of that is the fact that you’re sidelining your teammates because you have no idea what you’re built for

What a way to complicate the game, he talks about consideration and nerfs himself just to pretend that he doesn't hinder the rest of his team, when in the end he ends up holding back the entire team and then complains that the rest don't do what his "majesty" wants, talks about freedom while trying to oppress the way others play, as Ervin said: the personification of selfishness.

[darklord122]

5 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

What a way to complicate the game, he talks about consideration and nerfs himself just to pretend that he doesn't hinder the rest of his team, when in the end he ends up holding back the entire team and then complains that the rest don't do what his "majesty" wants, talks about freedom while trying to oppress the way others play, as Ervin said: the personification of selfishness.

Kinda feel bad for those teammates, Having to either deal with someone who can't kill enemies properly or just barely or someone who just drops out when his build has hit the threshold thus leaving those teammates to fend for themselves.

Consideration really doesn't seem to be a thing there.

Edited February 11 by darklord122

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-02-09 at 12:16 AM, darklord122 said:

So why should end game players experiences need to be ruined

Because they're ruining the experience for others.

You can share.

On 2024-02-09 at 2:53 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Obviously, this creates "mastery fodder" once you're doing content with end game tier weapons, but that creates a broader range of end game options... the horizontal growth you say you want, at the same time as providing players like me, the vertical progression system.

But how does it create a broader range of end game options? Having vertical power bands by definition creates a narrower range. Here, simple visual example:

Vertical Progression:

🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩 ← Meta, best of the best
🟨🟨🟨🟨🟨 🟨🟨🟨🟨🟨 🟨🟨 ← Decent, off-meta
🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧 🟧 ← Poor, but you can technically complete missions with it
🟥🟥🟥🟥🟥 🟥🟥🟥🟥🟥 🟥🟥🟥🟥🟥 🟥🟥🟥🟥 ← Powercrept fodder

If you're playing endgame content you only have 9 really good options out of 51, 21 out of 51 if you're willing to give up a little and be creative. You're not using anything in the orange and red pool because it cannot keep up with anything, and the content you want to do is not designed for that kind of equipment. And godforbid your favorite thing ever is a 🟥, because the game says too bad #*!% you stop liking what you like. For example I adore the Paracyst. It's so cool and I love how it goes bbbbrap and I want to use it. It also blows so much chunky ass that it's essentially unusable in most of the game. I just can't rely on it.

Horizontal Progression:

🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩← Meta, best of the best
🟨🟨🟨🟨🟨 🟨🟨🟨🟨🟨 🟨🟨🟨🟨🟨 🟨🟨🟨🟨🟨 🟨 ← Decent, off-meta

If you're playing anything, endgame or not, you have 30 really good options out of 51, and all 51 if you're willing to give up a little and be creative. Here every option is more than good enough to take anywhere and still be a productive, active member of a team. Here my Paracyst might be a 🟨, but it'll still be decent anywhere I go and I can use it to my heart's content.

So how does having 21 options actually give you more than than 51 options?

On 2024-02-09 at 5:23 AM, Tsukinoki said:

And why wouldn't it lead to stagnation?

After all the starter Lato is going to be able to handle the absolute toughest fights in the game without needing to do anything to it!  So why would I bother getting any other weapon when I have the strongest weapon right from the very start?  Why would I bother theory crafting builds?  Why would I bother grinding mods?

And in previous posts you mentioned even arcanes and archon shards and all that not really mattering at all....

What would be the point of grinding out different weapons?  After all none of them are going to be any better than the base Lato I started the game with.
What would be the point of running Archons or Eidolons or anything else when the rewards don't matter in any way?

I mean you can see how well this went over with Anthem, where the default weapon you have when you un-equip your gear was the strongest gun in the game for a while.......

Not needing to do anything to the Lato for it to "handle the toughest fights in the game" is just hyperbole and you know it. Take a step back and be realistic. Who said you shouldn't need to do anything to a weapon? No one but you. Tell me, if I put in 8 Forma, a potato, a Riven, and an Arcane into a random weapon, any weapon at all, like let's say the Lato, why shouldn't it be able to handle the toughest fights in the game? If I've done everything I can to keep up, why shouldn't I be able to effectively play alongside your 5-Forma Kuva Nukor or whatever?

And if you're gonna ask "why should you bother grinding any other weapon if they're all good", maybe first ask yourself why should you bother grinding any other weapon today? Like I said in another comment, just go get your Laetum or your Kuva Nukor and you're done. Those two weapons alone are accounted for a full fifth of all secondary usage last year. Eleven secondaries made up half. So why get anything else today? Why bother getting any other weapon when you can already get the strongest weapons within a few days play? Why bother theory crafting builds when they're already going to be inferior to what you already have? Why bother grinding mods like Gale Kick when you already aren't going to use them? Why should you go get the new gun today when you know you're just going to sell it for some Credits after using it for 5 minutes in ESO?

But if everything is good, then the answer to "why should you get the new gun" is simple: because new guns are #*!%ing cool. And if you know that every single new gun you get is going to kick God in the $&*^ and steal his lunch money, why the #*!% wouldn't you want to get it? Go HAM. Kill God with a book. Kill God with an Infested stick. Kill God with some knob you paid an Ostron to tape together.

People ask this same "why would you bother" question all the time, and they never stop to self-reflect on what they're already doing today.

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, darklord122 said:

"Consideration" "Slows the game down by not building properly and actively being unable to contribute."

Mhm Mhm.

Consideration is when you don’t take a nuke build, thinking you’re doing everyone a favour by hogging all the game while proclaiming and assuming that everyone wants to play like you, into a multiplayer match.

I’m contributing, I’m doing my part, others get their chance to their part. If I went and built to minimise the game as much as possible as effectively as possible, would you seriously herald me as a hero and as being considerate?

You know that thing where people wonder why the game’s not got a lot of gameplay and that DE don’t know anything about balance and that you better like cookie-clicker gameplay or the game’s not for you? You can do that on your own in solo, don’t force it on those around you

 

47 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Kinda feel bad for those teammates, Having to either deal with someone who can't kill enemies properly or just barely or someone who just drops out when his build has hit the threshold thus leaving those teammates to fend for themselves.

Dude, if I’m dropping out, you’re already fending for yourselves and I’m superfluous

Edited February 11 by Merkranire

[PublikDomain]

On 2024-02-09 at 9:34 AM, SneakyErvin said:

And even if you make everything good with an intent to annihilate the meta, there will still always be a meta, since something will always be better than something else, even if only slightly.

So? That's fine. Never said it wasn't. Metas will always exist and are not inherently a problem. They're only a problem when there's too much spread and you stop being able to play effectively with a majority of the game's content just because Nukor McSnobface might have an aneurysm over you liking the Vipers. A meta where the best thing is only 50% better than the average is fine. I can make up 50% with my skill and knowledge. I can't make up 1,000% no matter how much I try.

On 2024-02-09 at 9:34 AM, SneakyErvin said:

And if you make everything "good" just so everything is very similar, that in itself will lead to massive stagnation since everything will play the same.

Nonsense. Does the Quellor play the same as the Tonkor? No. Does the Grimoire play the same as the Ocucor? No.

Mechanics are what make weapons feel distinct, not the number you see pop off. Making power more equal does not affect mechanics. Your favorite whatever would still play just the same. It's just my favorite whatever would be able to keep up too. How terrible!

On 2024-02-09 at 9:34 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Should the Tiberon have all but one fire mode removed? Should all guns have 3 seperate modes? Should the Corinth have the grenade removed? Should all weapons get underslung nade launchers? Should chain beams of the Amprex get removed, should Ignis turn into a chain beam? Should Amprex get heat or ignis get elextricity, or should both be turned into 33/33/33 IPS weapons together with every other gun/weapon out there? Tatsu will no longer have the slide perk, Tenet and Kuva weapons will no longer have innate damage perks, Zenistar just lost the disk, Furax Wraith just lost the heat field, Tenet Tetra no longer exsists since it is just a Tetra. Should every single variant also get shanked?

Literal nonsense. Please, Ervin, quote me where I suggested this. I didn't and you know it. You're just making S#&$ up.

Edited February 11 by PublikDomain

[RATATOUILLETHETHIRD]

just play solo