LoS sucks, Overguard changes are good but Dante’s got hit too hard and Nezha didn’t need that nerf

[The-Harbinger-of-Malice]

As I said Line of Sight sucks, at very least hard LoS is just unplayable when implemented. I be happy with what Octavia’s mallet has as that’s playable. Overguard changes coming next week will be a change for the better but I still think Dante didn’t need that nerffed. As for Nezhas augment….why? I gesture at all the nuke frames that delete enemies off the screen within a few seconds and ask why Nezhas the one that gets hit with a stick and told “no”? Let the twink obliterate I say.

Edited April 5 by The-Harbinger-of-Malice

[Akoshus]

Nezha deserved a nerf, no frame should be able to hit 300kpm, however the 87% coverage nerf due to the 50% range reduction was too much. Remove the damage multiplier from the status spread at most, but at least just reduce that or rework it's math to scale differently.

[The-Harbinger-of-Malice]

4 hours ago, Akoshus said:

Nezha deserved a nerf, no frame should be able to hit 300kpm

By that logic a good few frames should be brought down to scale 

[Akoshus]

7 hours ago, The-Harbinger-of-Malice said:

By that logic a good few frames should be brought down to scale 

Yes. Mainly Saryn, Mesa, Kullervo and Octavia. If any of these are allowed to exist but not Nezha or any other frame that needed a bit of fresh air, then none of them should.

[The-Harbinger-of-Malice]

2 hours ago, Akoshus said:

Yes. Mainly Saryn, Mesa, Kullervo and Octavia. If any of these are allowed to exist but not Nezha or any other frame that needed a bit of fresh air, then none of them should.

We are in agreement there. Just a shame the game’s design has been moving to “faster kill = better” for a few years now.

[--END--Rikutatis]

Nezha absolutely needed that nerf. A 50m+ no LoS, going through walls, all around nuke that required 2 button presses was just stupid. Blows my mind that even made it to the Live game. Every single youtuber commented on how that was going to be nerfed. Anyone who's been around for a while knew it was going to be nerfed. It was just dumb. I used it once in an archon hunt defense and effortlessly hoarded 90% of the kills without even trying hard or seeing most of the enemies. 

I didnt play Dante yet, but from the videos I watched he seemed very overtuned as well. I do agree Saryn has similar problems, although at least Saryn requires a bit more engagement with the enemies to maintain the map wide nukes. Mesa and Octavia require direct interaction with the enemies (as in at least seeing them)  so I disagree on them being the same. Octavia is just a boring lazy afk frame. Kullervo I haven't played enough to comment. But frankly I think all warframes and weapons should require LoS. Blowing things up in a 30-50m radius across rooms and floors is just dumb and waters down the gameplay. 

Frankly if it was up to you guys you'd just press one button at the start of the mission to nuke all the enemies instantaneously and jump to the rewards screen. I actually like playing the game. There's more than enough power creep already. 

[VoyrenTV]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Akoshus:

Yes. Mainly Saryn, Mesa, Kullervo and Octavia. If any of these are allowed to exist but not Nezha or any other frame that needed a bit of fresh air, then none of them should.

Sometimes i wish this forum had a downvote button -

[Waeleto]

This ^

The reason people complained about overguard is because of issues that are already confirmed to be solved with the next hotfix therefore there is NO REASON to keep dante's overguard nerfed (if you want to compromise you could give dante his pre-nerf overguard and make it 50% effective on allies same as it's with frost/styanax)

The LoS changes are still just not it, it's still very inconsistent ...

As for Nezha, i didn't try the augment pre or post nerf so i can't really give a perfect opinion on it but just looking at numbers a 50% decrease is overdoing it

Edited April 6 by Waeleto

[Akoshus]

5 hours ago, VoyrenTV said:

Sometimes i wish this forum had a downvote button -

Then use this as a dislike, I personally think you overreact a 10 years veteran's opinion on the topic. I'm more than content with having stupid good dps's but the same 4 dominating the game for years is not good for diversity of options. Either double down on it or noone should have it, because as is, it's inconsistent.

[Nero.DMC]

7 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I didnt play Dante yet, but from the videos I watched he seemed very overtuned as well. I do agree Saryn has similar problems, although at least Saryn requires a bit more engagement with the enemies to maintain the map wide nukes. Mesa and Octavia require direct interaction with the enemies (as in at least seeing them)  so I disagree on them being the same. Octavia is just a boring lazy afk frame. Kullervo I haven't played enough to comment. But frankly I think all warframes and weapons should require LoS. Blowing things up in a 30-50m radius across rooms and floors is just dumb and waters down the gameplay. 

LoS is a bad lazy idea for NOT balancing a frame, they are too lazy to balance it correctly so they make it annoying to play...

People like to be able to control the game, Adding LoS as a "balance tool" is the most stupid thing in the world from a design perspective, it removes agency from the player, sure you modded range BUT that range is meaningless in certain tiles, also its extremely op in other tiles... so exactly what was solved?
If he was overtuned then HE IS STILL OVERTUNED in open tiles because LoS SHOULD NEVER be a balance tool, it just means that the warframe is randomly over or under tuned, is that your idea of balancing it? Its just annoying nothing more and let me tell you a secret: "Games are not supposed to be annoying" they can be hard, easy, funny, sad but annoying is not a quality a game wants, that is why we always want QoL stuff.

If LoS was a requirement for every ability that would make sense, but as a balance tool it should never be used because it just means developers did not want to deal with balancing and decided to just simply remove QoL...

 

[_Anise_]

On 2024-04-05 at 10:42 PM, Akoshus said:

no frame should be able to hit 300kpm

but why? I mean I get that some frames perform a lot lower but why is 300kpm the arbitrary line in the sand? are we trying to balance every warframe to the same KPM? I have seen saryn 200kpm builds so should all dps frames be balanced to 200kpm? then Gyres base kit and Ember probably need buffing?

What is nezha kpm post nerf with rediculus 25meter range for investing 280% range? I personally found it not really much better than just running my dual ichors with the augment at that range that litrally requires sacrificing mod space and stats to achieve.

Edited April 7 by _Anise_

[Akoshus]

14 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

but why? I mean I get that some frames perform a lot lower but why is 300kpm the arbitrary line in the sand? are we trying to balance every warframe to the same KPM? I have seen saryn 200kpm builds so should all dps frames be balanced to 200kpm? then Gyres base kit and Ember probably need buffing?

What is nezha kpm post nerf with rediculus 25meter range for investing 280% range? I personally found it not really much better than just running my dual ichors with the augment at that range that litrally requires sacrificing mod space and stats to achieve.

Never said the range nerf was justified, I would have kept the range and mechanics as is, but reduced the damage multiplier to the point that it was mandatory to offset the duration because you could not possibly deal enough damage in 1 seconds to pop the whole world with a single attack.

[--END--Rikutatis]

18 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

LoS is a bad lazy idea for NOT balancing a frame, they are too lazy to balance it correctly so they make it annoying to play...

People like to be able to control the game, Adding LoS as a "balance tool" is the most stupid thing in the world from a design perspective, it removes agency from the player, sure you modded range BUT that range is meaningless in certain tiles, also its extremely op in other tiles... so exactly what was solved?
If he was overtuned then HE IS STILL OVERTUNED in open tiles because LoS SHOULD NEVER be a balance tool, it just means that the warframe is randomly over or under tuned, is that your idea of balancing it? Its just annoying nothing more and let me tell you a secret: "Games are not supposed to be annoying" they can be hard, easy, funny, sad but annoying is not a quality a game wants, that is why we always want QoL stuff.

If LoS was a requirement for every ability that would make sense, but as a balance tool it should never be used because it just means developers did not want to deal with balancing and decided to just simply remove QoL...

 

I personally don't think LoS by itself is the problem, it works perfectly fine in other games. The problem is how buggy and wonky LoS in WF has always been. Dante's LoS is still bugged after the hotfixes and not working properly. If DE manages to fix it and make it feel smooth and fair he'll be a great frame. And then they can fix the LoS of other frames as well. 

[_Anise_]

4 hours ago, Akoshus said:

but reduced the damage multiplier

I saw someone saying remove it entirely, I don't disagree with because you can kill on the stats damage alone if you run meta weapons

[Nero.DMC]

8 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I personally don't think LoS by itself is the problem, it works perfectly fine in other games. The problem is how buggy and wonky LoS in WF has always been. Dante's LoS is still bugged after the hotfixes and not working properly. If DE manages to fix it and make it feel smooth and fair he'll be a great frame. And then they can fix the LoS of other frames as well. 

LoS itself is not a problem, LoS as a nerf mechanic is a HUGE problem, because it ignores why the ability is too powerful in the first place, it does not fix the problem it just make the WF annoying to play.

[Aruquae]

On 2024-04-06 at 11:41 AM, Waeleto said:

This ^

The reason people complained about overguard is because of issues that are already confirmed to be solved with the next hotfix therefore there is NO REASON to keep dante's overguard nerfed (if you want to compromise you could give dante his pre-nerf overguard and make it 50% effective on allies same as it's with frost/styanax)

The LoS changes are still just not it, it's still very inconsistent ...

As for Nezha, i didn't try the augment pre or post nerf so i can't really give a perfect opinion on it but just looking at numbers a 50% decrease is overdoing it

Think of it this way… low range at base… and now it’s even lower

Goodness he’s going to have to find a tightly packed group! Or he’s just going to build for max range in order for it to spread to any distance… which is absurd considering other frames can do the same thing at base range (damage at that range that is). 

[OnestarMike]

On 2024-04-07 at 11:25 AM, --END--Rikutatis said:

I personally don't think LoS by itself is the problem, it works perfectly fine in other games. The problem is how buggy and wonky LoS in WF has always been. Dante's LoS is still bugged after the hotfixes and not working properly. If DE manages to fix it and make it feel smooth and fair he'll be a great frame. And then they can fix the LoS of other frames as well. 

Perfect LoS implementation will never make Dante's tragedy feel better. You've been playing warframe right? The game where there's a million objects, walls, pillars, and multi levels where you also move as super speed, while the enemies are also running around? The only situation in which prefect LoS helps is in open world maps.

It's just a bad thing to use on an ability like tragedy.