Nezha's Divine Retribution augment: The downsides and counters it already has (And if it still needs a nerf, the places better fit for it)

[KitMeHarder]

I was going to wait until after the hotfix this week, but on the Devshorts Reb said Divine Retribution was going to get looked at again, so I'm posting this now. To start this off with, Nezha+his augment made him the most fun and useful frame I've played since Xaku. And as such, I've chosen for this to be "a hill I'm willing to die on". I'm willing to accept if the devs are absolutely adamant the augment needs to be nerfed in some way; But it needs to still function the same as it did on release if I'm able to invest into it/master it to a high enough degree.

But first, lets list out all the downsides and bugs the ability/augment already has.

• The augment already has a soft Line-of-Sight restriction
  • In large part, you already had to see an enemy in the first place for this augment to work. This isn't Volt's Discharge, where I just hit one button and things die. I have to actually see an enemy to spread status onto before I even cast my 4, I have to have highly invested weapons for it to reliably (even then) kill everything speared, and you had to do even more than that to actually get the most out of the augment.
• Overguarded enemies
  • Overguarded enemies are already a counter to Divine Spears, as they can't be ragdolled by the ability. Compare that to other damage abilities, where most don't need to CC enemies first to do damage.
• In fact, all Ragdoll immune enemies counter the augment
  • So not only is it that overguarded enemies counter Divine Spears, but any enemy without a Ragdoll animation counters DS. Enemies that are prone to countless CCs otherwise, now counter Divine Spears and thus the augment. Kuva Guardians (vulnerable state), the Anatomizer, the Hollow Vein, Nechramechs, Bursas, Amalgam Alkonoist, Deimos Saxum, the Severed Warden, Deimos Jugulus, Aurax Raknoid, Terra Jackel, etc...
• Overkilling an enemy does not spread status on more sources than you'd think
  • If for example I head shot an enemy with my Kuva Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding would have produced a slash proc, but the enemy dies, no slash proc spreads. Same thing with something like the Glaive Prime, if I one-shot a butcher trying to kill a speared Heavy Gunner, the game just says "no slash proc for you". This is just another limiting factor the augment already has, and it reduces the amount of viable weapons you'd think would normally work.
• Elemental mods do not apply to spread DoTs and Faction damage only applies once instead of twice (including slash)
  • You can see in the screenshot, the heat DoT from my Javlok is doing 1,194 damage to the initial target, but only 249 damage to every other speared enemy. That's less than 21% of the initial damage.
    • 
• Enemies are speared at different times, and not all at once
  • Enemies are not speared at the same time. There is up to a 0.5-1 second delay between when the first enemy is speared and when all the rest in range are. This inconsistency makes it very hard to work with the other problems the ability/augment already has.

And now here is a list of nerfs I'd be fine with if the augment really needs it.

• Make the augment only transfer status from Nezha or Nezha and his companions. The augment doesn't need to transfer statuses from every source, especially other players.
• Make it so the augment only has a 65% chance (capping at 100%) to transfer status effects, scaling with strength.
• The same 65% chance to spread as above, but also remove the status detonation multiplier entirely.
  • In exchange, make it so his spears still stick into ragdoll-immune enemies for the full duration (without CCing them).
• Have the augment reduce the duration of his 4 by 50-65%, so you have less time to get full value from it.

 

And for some final words, please revert the range nerf fully and please DO NOT add LoS to Divine Spears.

Edited April 11 by KitMeHarder

[KitMeHarder]

I appreciate the change in today's hotfix, and it's a good enough change that I'd ultimately be willing to settle with it. But I think a lot of the points in this thread weren't considered (or aren't known) and I really wish we'd get the release day range back. And if not, then at least I'd hope we can get some or all of these downsides/bugs fixed.

[crazywolfpusher]

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• The augment already has a soft Line-of-Sight restriction
  • In large part, you already had to see an enemy in the first place for this augment to work. This isn't Volt's Discharge, where I just hit one button and things die. I have to actually see an enemy to spread status onto before I even cast my 4, I have to have highly invested weapons for it to reliably (even then) kill everything speared, and you had to do even more than that to actually get the most out of the augment..

No, there is no soft Line-of-Sight, there is no LoS at all. You can hit speared enemy through walls with aoe weapons or enough punch-through. Trying to compare Nezha's augment to Volt's Discharge is such a terrible take. Volt's Discharge doesn't spread status, hell, it doesn't even apply Electric procs, need armor strip, and super high enemy density to chain properly. At high levels scratch enemies. "Hit one button and things die" only apply to Divine Retribution. Well, maybe two because you still need to shoot your gun, right? I wish I could say the same for Ember or Equinox, because they need more than 2 buttons. We'll get there.

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• Overguarded enemies
  • Overguarded enemies are already a counter to Divine Spears, as they can't be ragdolled by the ability. Compare that to other damage abilities, where most don't need to CC enemies first to do damage.

To be fair, Divine Spears wouldn't have affected them without the augment anyway, and yet, the only place where this might be an issue, is the new Deep Archimedea where one of the modifiers gives all enemies 50% Overguard. 99% of the game is not flooded with Eximus.

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• In fact, all Ragdoll immune enemies counter the augment
  • So not only is it that overguarded enemies counter Divine Spears, but any enemy without a Ragdoll animation counters DS. Enemies that are prone to countless CCs otherwise, now counter Divine Spears and thus the augment. Kuva Guardians (vulnerable state), the Anatomizer, the Hollow Vein, Nechramechs, Bursas, Amalgam Alkonoist, Deimos Saxum, the Severed Warden, Deimos Jugulus, Aurax Raknoid, Terra Jackel, etc...

Same as before. Divine Spears wouldn't have affected them anyway so it make no difference for the augment.

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• Overkilling an enemy does not spread status on more sources than you'd think
  • If for example I head shot an enemy with my Kuva Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding would have produced a slash proc, but the enemy dies, no slash proc spreads. Same thing with something like the Glaive Prime, if I one-shot a butcher trying to kill a speared Heavy Gunner, the game just says "no slash proc for you". This is just another limiting factor the augment already has, and it reduces the amount of viable weapons you'd think would normally work.

This is such a nitpicking situation... and I know it very well because I play Voruna and she is tied to the same rule.

First, why would you use a Kuva Chakkhurr with Divine Retribution? is such a terrible weapon choice. The only means it has to apply status effects (slash specifically) with enough consistency is through Hunter Munitions. Using this specific case to argue that Nezha's Augment has so many weaknesses is just... you are not fooling anyone... not me at least.

btw, a glaive Prime is not killing anyone above steel path with blast damage alone. Divine Retribution weapon pool still quite huge.

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• Elemental mods do not apply to spread DoTs and Faction damage only applies once instead of twice (including slash)
  • You can see in the screenshot, the heat DoT from my Javlok is doing 1,194 damage to the initial target, but only 249 damage to every other speared enemy. That's less than 21% of the initial damage.

And thanks god it doesn't. Divine Retribution has its own multiplier on detonation.

I haven't figured all the intricacies on how damage is calculated on the ability but it seems be doing more than enough damage to kill everything that's speared.

 

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• Enemies are speared at different times, and not all at once
  • Enemies are not speared at the same time. There is up to a 0.5-1 second delay between when the first enemy is speared and when all the rest in range are. This inconsistency makes it very hard to work with the other problems the ability/augment already has.

Only a problem if you build Nezha with the lowest duration possible, and even then, 1 duration red shard will solve the problem, and Nezha has plenty of Archon Shards space, since they are not required to make Divine Retribution work.

 

On 2024-04-10 at 7:35 AM, KitMeHarder said:

 

• Make the augment only transfer status from Nezha or Nezha and his companions. The augment doesn't need to transfer statuses from every source, especially other players.
• Make it so the augment only has a 65% chance (capping at 100%) to transfer status effects, scaling with strength.
• The same 65% chance to spread as above, but also remove the status detonation multiplier entirely.
  • In exchange, make it so his spears still stick into ragdoll-immune enemies for the full duration (without CCing them).
• Have the augment reduce the duration of his 4 by 50-65%, so you have less time to get full value from it.

 

And for some final words, please revert the range nerf fully and please DO NOT add LoS to Divine Spears.

You already build Nezha with some strength, escalating the status spread based on Chance-Strength wouldn't have any impact.

Currently the best way to build Nezha's Divine Retribution is with low duration. It kill so fast that you end up spamming spears constantly. Reducing it's duration is not a nerf. 

-----------------------------

 

Compare Nezha's 39.2m radius of damage that goes through walls without Line of Sight and doesn't need armor strip and can be spammed at will... 

with Ember or Equinox. They were the AOE frames, and now? they have been absolutely outclassed. Nezha is a great Tank, highly mobile, Status immune, with good energy economy and a damage vulnerability debuff.

So let me ask you...  all this for what? make Nezha the strongest nuker in the game? I have news for you. Already is.

[sh0shin]

Pretty wild to call Nezha the best nuker in the game when he's literally spreading Status and not doing upfront damage. Not sure what your definition of "nuke" is, but for me it's not Slash and Heat DoTs. He's strong and clears trash mobs with the augment, yeah, but "best nuker"?

[KitMeHarder]

@crazywolfpusher If you're only going to half read the post, then you don't really need to bother responding. And the fact you hyper-fixated on my points with your own preconceived notions and completely missed what I was saying didn't help either.

I'm happy to discuss if you want to reevaluate what you posted, but until then...

[crazywolfpusher]

I literally quoted your whole bible 😆

The arguments you were using to justify a 20m radial Nuke (56m easily moded) make no sense

There are only 3 frames (aside from now Nezha) that can nuke without Line of Sight at steel path level.

1. Equinox. Need to accumulate damage, drain energy per second, require a helminth armor strip. Damage diminish with distance. 18m base radius.
2. Saryn. Spores need to ramp up damage. You mess up, Spores damage gone. Not exactly easy to handle on a full squad. 16m base radius.
3. Gauss. Thermal Sunder need to charge redline which can take a while. Very spammy and energy hungry.  12m radius

If we look just at the radius without considering nothing else, Divine Retribution with 14m is sitting at third place, just below Saryn, the AOE Queen. 

Now if we consider how effective is, the steps needed to pull it off, the KPM that can achieve? is in first place no doubts. 

See? the only limitation Divine Retribution has, is that cannot damage Overguard and CC immune units. Which are RARE.

 

 

btw

Spoiler

This is my current Nezha build. Notice something? 

yeah no prime mods needed, no umbra forma. highly flexible actually. I wish Equinox was this easy to build.

 

[KitMeHarder]

8 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

I literally quoted your whole bible

Yeah, while getting plenty wrong and completely missing most of the points. You quoted my part about the Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding, only to completely ignore the mod, call the Chakkhurr a "terrible weapon choice", and then try to claim the gun is reliant on Hunter Munitions? The Chakkhurr is one of the best slash sources in the game.

"First, why would you use a Kuva Chakkhurr with Divine Retribution? is such a terrible weapon choice. The only means it has to apply status effects (slash specifically) with enough consistency is through Hunter Munitions. Using this specific case to argue that Nezha's Augment has so many weaknesses is just... you are not fooling anyone... not me at least."

8 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

The arguments you were using to justify a 20m radial Nuke (56m easily moded) make no sense

You don't even care enough/have enough intellectual integrity to get the facts right. Divine Spears has a base 19m, not 20.

8 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

There are only 3 frames (aside from now Nezha) that can nuke without Line of Sight at steel path level.

Again, completely wrong. And no, I'm not going to tell someone with a mindset like yours which frames they are just so you can lambaste them in the future.

8 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

the only limitation Divine Retribution has, is that cannot damage Overguard and CC immune units. Which are RARE.

I guess you're not quite there yet in your Warframe journey, because Archon Hunts, Netracells, SP Circuit, Deep Archs, etc... are full of them.

And again with you missing the point and not reading the OP. It's not simply CC immune enemies, it's ANY random enemies DE didn't program a ragdoll animation for. You can Ensnare something like the Anatomizer, slow it with Molecular Prime, blind it with Radial Howl, charm it with Resonator, etc... but Divine Spears unrightfully does nothing because that enemy doesn't have a ragdoll animation. And there are plenty of enemies like this, literally every non-grunt enemy in the Murmur faction is immune to ragdolls.

8 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

This is my current Nezha build. Notice something?

Yeah, you must be constantly dying to need 3 different sources of shield tanking, two of which are quite extreme. So much for your original claim about Nezha being a "great tank", you've seemed to have missed your own memo.

Edited April 12 by KitMeHarder

[crazywolfpusher]

22 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yeah, while getting plenty wrong and completely missing most of the points. You quoted my part about the Chakkhurr and Internal Bleeding, only to completely ignore the mod, call the Chakkhurr a "terrible weapon choice", and then try to claim the gun is reliant on Hunter Munitions? The Chakkhurr is one of the best slash sources in the game.

Internal Bleeding, Hunter Munitions, what's the difference? The weapon by itself is heavily reliant on chances provided by 1 mod. There are dozens of better options to combo with the Spears and is not like Nezha is heavily limited by them. If you wanna tryhard with the Chakkhurr good for you. 

30 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You don't even care enough/have enough intellectual integrity to get the facts right. Divine Spears has a base 19m, not 20.

About Divine Spear Range yeah, added 1m by mistake, my bad. Without the range limitations would be the highest KPM Radial Nuke without LoS and Steel Path viable in the game still. 

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Again, completely wrong. And no, I'm not going to tell someone with a mindset like yours which frames they are just so you can lambaste them in the future.

Just to clarify, we are talking about Radial Nuking without LoS and SP viable. I don't know what game are you playing but there not that many as you make it sound.

Equinox, Saryn and Gauss are the best. Sure you can Nuke entry steel path with Discharge (since you mentioned Volt at the very start), but you give so much on all aspects to pull it off that I didn't want to consider him to make my point. Same with Thermal Sunder Rhino.

Nezha is the best Nuker in the game, if not, it's only because the Murmur faction is holding him back.

 

44 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I guess you're not quite there yet in your Warframe journey, because Archon Hunts, Netracells, SP Circuit, Deep Archs, etc... are full of them.

And again with you missing the point and not reading the OP. It's not simply CC immune enemies, it's ANY random enemies DE didn't program a ragdoll animation for. You can Ensnare something like the Anatomizer, slow it with Molecular Prime, blind it with Radial Howl, charm it with Resonator, etc... but Divine Spears unrightfully does nothing because that enemy doesn't have a ragdoll animation. And there are plenty of enemies like this, literally every non-grunt enemy in the Murmur faction is immune to ragdolls.

 

The Murmur faction is not 99% of Warframe. They are still work in progress. 2 weeks ago they just got finishers animations... is not Divine Spears unrightfully being ignored just because. I suppose Hydroid Tentacles are on the same boat. Give them time to work on it.

Just don't create a whole narrative about things that are going most likely get fixed in the future to justify Nezha's augment to be stronger than it should.

 

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yeah, you must be constantly dying to need 3 different sources of shield tanking, two of which are quite extreme. So much for your original claim about Nezha being a "great tank", you've seemed to have missed your own memo.

Please, tell me you are one of those that used to ask for Shield Gating nerfs, that would be funny.

What about it is extreme? Aegis? if was Guardian wouldn't just be just your Typical Nezha? Anyway, Halo DR works fantastic with Aegis, he is a great tank. Doesn't even need PSF, very beginner friendly.

I just find Shield Tanking tend to be less demanding. Nezha Health tanking fall short quickly around high levels and since his shield gating eventually will be consumed faster than Halo, Condemn was a good source of Shields on demand with the massive range the build provide.

 

[sh0shin]

On 2024-04-11 at 10:52 AM, crazywolfpusher said:

No, there is no soft Line-of-Sight, there is no LoS at all. You can hit speared enemy through walls with aoe weapons or enough punch-through. Trying to compare Nezha's augment to Volt's Discharge is such a terrible take. Volt's Discharge doesn't spread status, hell, it doesn't even apply Electric procs, need armor strip, and super high enemy density to chain properly. At high levels scratch enemies. "Hit one button and things die" only apply to Divine Retribution. Well, maybe two because you still need to shoot your gun, right? I wish I could say the same for Ember or Equinox, because they need more than 2 buttons. We'll get there.

my guy the whole point is the "soft LoS" is because you indeed have to use a weapon to make the augment do anything. you don't just spam 4 over and over. your gear matters here, quite a lot, and all weapons are pretty much subjected to LoS with a few exceptions.

[KitMeHarder]

23 hours ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Internal Bleeding, Hunter Munitions, what's the difference?

Sure Bud. I'm sure you probably don't think there's much of a difference, given our conversation thus far.