Arca Titron Design Issues and Identity, post-Hotfix 35.5.6

[SneachtOra]

I'm not entirely sure where to post this topic, but I feel like this is probably the right place?
I really like the changes to most things in this patch, it seems really nice, but as someone who used the Arca Titron before any of the general slam changes, or changes to its functionality that were done recently, I can't help but feel that these changes really miss the mark on the issue with the hammer now. Before, the idea with Arca Titron was that you would kill 10 enemies, and earn a large explosion that dealt overkill damage to everything in range, and then spend a short while using it as a regular hammer again to earn the large slam again, kind of like a more extreme example of how Incarnons work, where they offer an obscene amount of fleeting power, in exchange for needing to be charged beforehand. Needing 10 enemies for the biggest boom meant that you couldn't spam it, and the slam was strong enough that it really felt like you earned it, even if the weapon wasn't incredibly strong in most settings.

The main issues that Arca Titron have had were that it had some serious usability issues and frustrations due to losing charges on some combo attacks, leading to players having to cancel attacks early to avoid wasting the slam buffs, and after the general slam buffs, that it could reach some very very big numbers a bit too easily. The changes to Arca Titron have been really disappointing, in my opinion, at least. The changes to its usability were amazing, no complaints there, the hammer is very fun now in that regard, but the changes to its slam have felt really bad. The change to Additive instead of Multiplicative damage hit it really hard, to the point where it felt like the main point of the slam buff wasn't the damage, but just that the capacitor increased your slam range, and plenty of enemies were now capable of surviving the slam, even at just regular Steel Path levels and missions. This patch now "fixes" that issue, in a way, as the slam capacitor is now much easier to fill, but it just... feels worse, now. The lower cap encourages you to spam it as soon as you get it, and 5 kills for the slam is an extremely low amount, and the issue with its damage wasnt addressed as it will only be slightly higher than it was before this patch, tankier enemies will still survive it. This patch has solved the issue of Arca Titron having low damage for the investment it requires to deal that damage, not by increasing its damage, but by just encouraging players to spam the slam twice as often, which will make it stronger, but it doesn't make the hammer feel fun to use, or as unique as it did before. Now, the only unique attribute its slam has is its range, pretty much, but other slam weapons like Pangolin don't require any set-up, and deal far more damage then Arca Titron does.

I don't personally see how, rewarding players for using Arca Titron at 10 stacks, was an issue, but I can understand that, due to how strong its old damage stacking was, you could simply kill one enemy between slams, and spam it, for very strong damage, albeit with a shorter range than a fully stacked slam capacitor. I feel like, instead of lowering the damage but increasing its spamability, it would be a healthier and more thematic change to keep the old 10 stacks required for maximum buffs, but make it so you can only consume your slam charges when at 10 stacks, and rebuffing the stacks to be some form of multiplicative scaling (it doesn't have to be as extreme as before, but I personally wouldn't see it as being problematic if the hammer dealt the same damage as before, it didn't encourage idle play or dominate the meta in any way, even in its strongest state), so that the hammer fully leans into its original design philosophy, offering an obscene amount of fleeting power, in exchange for needing to be charged beforehand, which I, at least personally, feel is the more fun and unique design for the weapon. It would limit player options, by forcing them to fully charge the hammer to benefit from its unique attribute, rather than being able to use up their charges at any time for a diminished effect, but I feel that it is probably the ideal middle-ground for it, now that slams in general have been buffed. Keeping the buffs to its usability by not having attack combos consume slam capacitor charges would really finally make the weapon fully embody the concept that it was meant to on release, but that it has always been held back from by bugs, or changes that just slightly miss the mark. Arca Titron's history can really be summarised as always being one step forward, and one step back, but I really feel like this is a great chance for the weapon to finally be in a really good spot.

The Arca Titron in its current state isn't weak, really, it still is one of the only hammers with a strong enough slash weighting and high enough status chance to reliably proc bleed, and the general slam buffs do mean that the slam will kill most fodder enemies in its range, but it really feels like the Arca Titron has lost its identity as the slam hammer, and what made it fun to use, and is now just a decent, but kind of generic weapon.

Edited April 13 by SneachtOra

[StrawberrySparrow]

Could you format this a little better please? It's hard to read without breaks in each paragraph.

[SneachtOra]

Sure! Thank you for that feedback, I'll insert more breaks into it.
Edit: Do you feel like the formatting is better now, or would you make additional changes to it?

 

Edited April 13 by SneachtOra

[owendawgx]

After a lot of testing, I think that it is in a much better place than it was immediately after the nerf, but I could also see the argument for a further increase to its slam damage multiplier. I don't think it needs to be multiplicative though. 

If you're having trouble making it feel really good, I recommend using Melee Influence. The Arca Titron is probably the single best user of Melee Influence in the entire game now (bar maybe something like the Xoris.) 

You can run a Corrosive build and still proc influence thanks to the guaranteed electric procs from slams (including those in combos,) and if you run Weeping Wounds you can basically spread 10-stack Corrosive to every thing while getting periodic electric procs from slams. Emerald shards obviously improve this even further. 

The reason I could see an increase to the slam damage multiplier being nice is in the case that anything changes with Melee Influence. I don't think anything needs to change with Melee Influence, as its just a unique build option that typically struggles against really high-level armor, and only functions in really high enemy density. The Arca Titron is also one of the only weapons that can do the Corrosive build I mentioned above without a specific Warframe buff from Saryn or Lavos (I believe the Xoris can do this too.) 

Overall I think the Arca Titron is better than it ever has been right now thanks to Melee Influence. If Influence were to ever change I think the Titron would need another buff to compete, but I think Influence is completely fine in the game currently as it offers a unique alternative to the must-proc-slash method of building melee that we've been relying on for years. I also like how Influence interacts with certain weapon gimmicks like the Titrons in really cute ways. Its fun and allows for different builds! 

 

[SneachtOra]

On 2024-04-13 at 3:50 PM, owendawgx said:

After a lot of testing, I think that it is in a much better place than it was immediately after the nerf, but I could also see the argument for a further increase to its slam damage multiplier. I don't think it needs to be multiplicative though. 

If you're having trouble making it feel really good, I recommend using Melee Influence. The Arca Titron is probably the single best user of Melee Influence in the entire game now (bar maybe something like the Xoris.) 

You can run a Corrosive build and still proc influence thanks to the guaranteed electric procs from slams (including those in combos,) and if you run Weeping Wounds you can basically spread 10-stack Corrosive to every thing while getting periodic electric procs from slams. Emerald shards obviously improve this even further. 

The reason I could see an increase to the slam damage multiplier being nice is in the case that anything changes with Melee Influence. I don't think anything needs to change with Melee Influence, as its just a unique build option that typically struggles against really high-level armor, and only functions in really high enemy density. The Arca Titron is also one of the only weapons that can do the Corrosive build I mentioned above without a specific Warframe buff from Saryn or Lavos (I believe the Xoris can do this too.) 

Overall I think the Arca Titron is better than it ever has been right now thanks to Melee Influence. If Influence were to ever change I think the Titron would need another buff to compete, but I think Influence is completely fine in the game currently as it offers a unique alternative to the must-proc-slash method of building melee that we've been relying on for years. I also like how Influence interacts with certain weapon gimmicks like the Titrons in really cute ways. Its fun and allows for different builds! 

 

I agree! I really like Influence, but at the same time, I don't feel like Arca Titron itself should be balanced around being able to use Influence in that way. Influence itself is fine imo, it's one of my favourite melee builds currently, and it works on pretty much any weapon! You don't need one with a base electricity mechanic, but it can make it stronger. If you like Influence, I'd recommend using it on weapons like Fragor or other weapons that have good status but no slash to take advantage of it. You have less single target damage, but damaging multiple enemies at once makes up for it. Titron's electricity makes it a good user of Influence, and Influence itself is so strong that I can see the argument that Influence currently makes Titron the strongest it has been, but personally, I don't feel like the weapon is as fun to use as it was before.

And I do agree, Titron is definitely in a better place than it was immediately after the original nerf, but I do feel like it lost some of its identity in the recent buff afterwards, and that the buff makes the weapon stronger, but less fun overall. I nearly feel like I would've rathered it kept its janky stance mechanics, if it meant that it was going to get transformed into something completely different than it originally was in the aftermath of it kind of pretty randomly getting nerfed, with very little justification provided for why it needed to be nerfed.
Thank you for the advice though! I do appreciate it.

[owendawgx]

14 hours ago, SneachtOra said:

I agree! I really like Influence, but at the same time, I don't feel like Arca Titron itself should be balanced around being able to use Influence in that way. Influence itself is fine imo, it's one of my favourite melee builds currently, and it works on pretty much any weapon! You don't need one with a base electricity mechanic, but it can make it stronger. If you like Influence, I'd recommend using it on weapons like Fragor or other weapons that have good status but no slash to take advantage of it. You have less single target damage, but damaging multiple enemies at once makes up for it. Titron's electricity makes it a good user of Influence, and Influence itself is so strong that I can see the argument that Influence currently makes Titron the strongest it has been, but personally, I don't feel like the weapon is as fun to use as it was before.

And I do agree, Titron is definitely in a better place than it was immediately after the original nerf, but I do feel like it lost some of its identity in the recent buff afterwards, and that the buff makes the weapon stronger, but less fun overall. I nearly feel like I would've rathered it kept its janky stance mechanics, if it meant that it was going to get transformed into something completely different than it originally was in the aftermath of it kind of pretty randomly getting nerfed, with very little justification provided for why it needed to be nerfed.
Thank you for the advice though! I do appreciate it.

I think that's all very fair. The Titron does feel very different than it did previously. It was one of the only melee that seriously benefitted from stance-cancelling.

[sh0shin]

It is like sh*tty Tennokai now, yeah... As someone who invested in their Titron after Slam buffs, these changes can feck off. They could've just cut the damage in half and it'd still perform worse than the Magistar Incarnon slam builds. Whatever, power creep and new content are more important. Screw my Forma and potato.

[SneachtOra]

On 2024-04-15 at 5:33 PM, sh0shin said:

It is like sh*tty Tennokai now, yeah... As someone who invested in their Titron after Slam buffs, these changes can feck off. They could've just cut the damage in half and it'd still perform worse than the Magistar Incarnon slam builds. Whatever, power creep and new content are more important. Screw my Forma and potato.

I feel your pain, I do hope they go back and reconsider the changes to it.