Negative interaction with Harrow and Laetum

[Braneman]

I would really appreciate it of the developers addressed the negative interaction between other players giving you critical chance and weapons like the Phenmor, Laetum, Felarx, the second generation incarnons that need below a certain crit chance. We all saw how Dante and overguard went down with hunter adrenaline and Chroma, and I could see any negative interactions with some of the strongest weapons in the entire game going down even worse.

Please come up with a solution for these weapons that require a specific or low crit chance so that we don't have a blow up where everybody is using some new frame that hands out crit chance like candy and neuters these weapons. At the moment Harrow and the Adarza Kavat are the only culprits here but we all know at some point another warframe could come in that does this and the community would explode again.

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, Braneman said:

I would really appreciate it of the developers addressed the negative interaction between other players giving you critical chance and weapons like the Phenmor, Laetum, Felarx, the second generation incarnons that need below a certain crit chance.

Play solo or in premade. Or expect these buffs to occur in public groups and plan accordingly. 

There are numerous other possible negative interactions between players than you mention, but they are far less common than positive interactions.

2 hours ago, Braneman said:

Please come up with a solution for these weapons that require a specific or low crit chance

This is a build choice, not these weapons feat. Laetum is perfectly fine with a crit build.

PS: Harrows are so uncommon these days anyway. I played Harrow on this weeks EDA, but only because other frames is had to choose from were Frost and Excalibur and absolutely trash weapons. So I thought I will at least provide some utility. I kinda had to take it off the top shelf and peel it from the cobwebs. 

Edited May 7 by Zakkhar

[16Bitman]

Equip a primary that does well with crits.
My smeeta makes me switch off my Laetum all the time.

[LittleLeoniePrime]

I'd be so easy, now that we can press esc and view our buffs to also just be able to y'know... toggle them off from there via like right click or something cough stealing from terraria here cough

As a nova main I hate people with grower power with a passion... they nerf my speed. and there's no way to opt out of that when my sentinel is just going ham shotting S#&$ procing statuses everywhere. It's the same issue.

Just let us toggle buffs off DE it's a conscious decision to opt out of something that was intended to increase me power and make my build better when in specific scenarios it might not. And i feel like we can be allowed that freedom of choice :3

[Braneman]

8 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

Play solo or in premade. Or expect these buffs to occur in public groups and plan accordingly. 

There are numerous other possible negative interactions between players than you mention, but they are far less common than positive interactions.

This is a build choice, not these weapons feat. Laetum is perfectly fine with a crit build.

PS: Harrows are so uncommon these days anyway. I played Harrow on this weeks EDA, but only because other frames is had to choose from were Frost and Excalibur and absolutely trash weapons. So I thought I will at least provide some utility. I kinda had to take it off the top shelf and peel it from the cobwebs. 

Okay so you weren't here for the whole Dante fiasco so lemme fill you in.

Dante came out and could just spam people with 40,000 overguard, this had a negative interaction with people who use rage and hunter adrenaline, as well as chroma, even though these are some of the least used frames in the game, Dante was nerfed in record time and for a while everything really sucked. Eventually the developers scrambled for a week or two and fixed the problem, basically all of the intermediate problems sucked. In the meantime playing with hunter adrenaline or Chroma was nearly impossible because Dante was just everywhere as the new warframe. It was very annoying overall and I would like this to not happen again.

What I'm predicting is exactly this same thing is going to happen again, but this time with a warframe that say sets the floor on crit chance to 100% which breaks specific incarnon weapons that need specific or low crit chances. The forums are going to explode again with players who are frustrated because basically every single public group is filled with people who break their guns with a buff. This could also happen if the devs do a good job with a Harrow or Adarza Kavat mod/augment.

So what I'm suggesting is that the developers fix this before it becomes a problem and if you pick these upgrades the weapons in question are barred from changing their crit chance in a mission externally, if you bring harrow you get the extra crit chance and have to deal with it, but if somebody else brings harrow you don't have to deal with it when you have those upgrades selected. That way the forums don't explode with people complaining that people in their party are nerfing their damage by 2000%.

PS. I'm trying not to be too rude, I do genuinely think you might have a problem with reading comprehension and picking out the important parts of what people are saying. I don't know if it's just that you didn't bother to read my post, or if you just read those two quoted sentences and thought "I have a solution to this that nobody has ever thought of, just play solo" I hope what I am saying comes across this time.

[Zakkhar]

21 minutes ago, Braneman said:

Okay so you weren't here for the whole Dante fiasco so lemme fill you in.

I was. I even experienced in game already when Styanax was up and Frost was given squad overguard. I had similar problems with Trinities before (not only constant shield restore but also 75% dmg red). Yes, I play a lot of Chroma.

21 minutes ago, Braneman said:

I do genuinely think you might have a problem with reading comprehension and picking out the important parts of what people are saying.

I don't, I simply disagree with you. You may have a problem with handing that.

Edited May 7 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

30 minutes ago, Braneman said:

if you just read those two quoted sentences and thought "I have a solution to this that nobody has ever thought of, just play solo" I hope what I am saying comes across this time.

That is not a solution to the problem, because the problem doesnt exist (or rather it is exaggerated out of propotion). This is a multiplyer game and if you choose to play it in public matchmaking, you will be a subject to multiple players interaction: good, bad or neutral as well as ability and item synergies: good, bad and neutral. As in life, it is a completely normal phenomenon. It is up to you to either:

• choose to not be moved by the negatives too much
• change the people you interact with to less negative/random
• adapt
• find positives

and more. Nitpicking negative interactions does not lead to any positive results. Yes, it happens, move on.

Edited May 7 by Zakkhar

[Tiltskillet]

No idea if it's technically feasible, but it would be nice if Devouring/Devastating Attrition and Prelude of Might just disregarded absolute crit chance bonuses like Covenant, Cat's Eye, puncture procs, etc. while the relevant weapon and evolution was active.

[Braneman]

26 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

I don't, I simply disagree with you. You may have a problem with handing that

No, you're cherrypicking points and ignoring what I'm saying. Here lemme break it down even further so you can't keep cherrypicking.

FORUMS BLEW UP, DEVS DID HASTY HALF FIXES BECAUSE FORUMS BLEW UP, I WOULD LIKE TO GET AHEAD OF FORUMS BLOWING UP AND HASTY HALF FIXES FROM THE FORUMS BLOWING UP, SO THAT A MEASURED APPROACH CAN BE TAKEN BY THE DEVELOPERS BEFORE THE PROBLEM COMES UP.

PREVENTATIVE PATCHING FOR A FORESEEABLE ISSUE, SO THAT THE DEVELOPERS TAKE A MEASURED APPROACH AND HAVE AS MUCH TIME AS THEY NEED.

This is the last time I'm going to try and explain this to you. I would rather have a functional future crit buffing based warframe/unnerfed Harrow rather than let the devs get more into this "nerf a warframe in a co-op game 5 days after he released" mentality. If I'm playing solo or not has no bearing on that, stay on topic.

[Zakkhar]

1 minute ago, Braneman said:

44 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

I don't, I simply disagree with you. You may have a problem with handing that

No, you're cherrypicking points and ignoring what I'm saying. Here lemme break it down even further so you can't keep cherrypicking.

FORUMS BLEW UP, DEVS DID HASTY HALF FIXES BECAUSE FORUMS BLEW UP, I WOULD LIKE TO GET AHEAD OF FORUMS BLOWING UP AND HASTY HALF FIXES FROM THE FORUMS BLOWING UP, SO THAT A MEASURED APPROACH CAN BE TAKEN BY THE DEVELOPERS BEFORE THE PROBLEM COMES UP.

PREVENTATIVE PATCHING FOR A FORESEEABLE ISSUE, SO THAT THE DEVELOPERS TAKE A MEASURED APPROACH AND HAVE AS MUCH TIME AS THEY NEED.

This is the last time I'm going to try and explain this to you. I would rather have a functional future crit buffing based warframe/unnerfed Harrow rather than let the devs get more into this "nerf a warframe in a co-op game 5 days after he released" mentality. If I'm playing solo or not has no bearing on that, stay on topic.

I stand corrected. Your problems go far beyond inability to handle opposite opinion. I am so sorry, feel free to talk with someone about this. Unaddressed it will only go worse. 

That is not a joke or sarcasm. I am really concerned.

[Braneman]

13 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

I stand corrected. Your problems go far beyond inability to handle opposite opinion. I am so sorry, feel free to talk with someone about this. Unaddressed it will only go worse. 

That is not a joke or sarcasm. I am really concerned.

You have an opposite opinion because you assigned me mine inside your own head and you can't get past that into the actual conversation. Does assigning people their opinions work out for you IRL?

 

Anyway moving back to the topic:

I would like to avoid any future nerfs to this sort of thing so here are some suggestions for the feedback forums.

The ideal solution for this problem for me would be that selecting one of these evolutions would bar the specific weapon from receiving any kind of external crit buff, absolute crit buff or multiplicative. That way if you're using a weapon that could benefit from this sort of thing in another slot you could still use the laetum or whatever. That would prevent any future problems with crit based buffing warframes. I think ideally this should only work with ally warframe buffs and not your own buffs from your warframe, I think that would help players think more about what they bring into a mission.

Another solution that I don't think would be as ideal would be that the evolution checks for the modded stats and ignores any in mission changes, allowing you to get the crit buff and the evolution buff. TBH the Laetum and similar are already strong enough and don't need buffing in this way, I think this would make them too dominant, and it wouldn't work with Overwhelming Attrition requiring non-crit non status and it might be complicated to make the weapons work that way.

I wouldn't like it if equipping say a Phenmor would prevent a Kuva Nukor from getting any kind of crit chance buff, that doesn't feel ideal to me.

The worst solution IMO would be to just nerf the hell out of Harrow and the Adarza Kavat like they did with Dante, if nobody is bringing crit buffs we can't have a problem with them, and that's what I would think happens if this problem shows up unexpectedly with say a new crit warframe or a really meta Harrow augment or perhaps some auto targeting headshot weapon. I'd like to get away from the nerf mentality so that people can have fun playing the game in groups without effecting solo players, I don't think it's healthy for Warframe as a whole to get too into nerfing things when they become a problem.