Burnout and how it gets handled by DE

[3xt1inct]

2 minutes ago, L3512 said:

Two minute completion time, I was being generous. Hell if there was enough capture alerts you could complete Energize in sub 40 minutes.

well true, if for capture consistently, realistically you will have to play some defense, survival and excav (500 cryo).

[L3512]

2 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

well true, if for capture consistently, realistically you will have to play some defense, survival and excav (500 cryo).

Survival is my limit for alerts, anything else probably has a longer completion time.

[Clegz]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb 3xt1inct:

Okay I'm very sorry for the intrusion but i just had to check your in game stats to get some points through to you you have 411 in game hours, you have pretty much every decent weapon choice at every point in the game EXCEPT for the things that take much time to get (read grind out a bit) or a decent amount of plat, unless absolutely necessary (your voidrig that you probably bought seeing yr standing with necraloid), you built an amp that you clearly intended to use for eidolon hunting, yet never went, so you decided eidolon took too long to complete, ALL OF WHICH IS FINE TO DO. this is just info i need to clarify what i will say below.

411 hrs in 100 log in days means you played an avg 4 hrs in game time/day, if you want the arcanes that badly i bet you can take out a day to get the ones you want. also 4 hrs a day no longer qualifies you as a casual, in my opinion, so it will just take you a little more playing the same missions to get to the material you need to start min maxing builds. min maxing in games has always been something considered for non casuals (ppl who play avg 2hrs/ day or less) IN 100 login days, min maxing is something you can do after significant time investment either over time or in one stint (no judgement). my argument was based on the fact you said you were a casual player, which i presumed meant you had 200 hrs or less in the game.

Secondly, attacking the possible solution to your problem with the time it takes to get the arcanes you want without inducing burnout/boredom just confirms you did not read my comment at all, my comment states that you would do on 40 mins/day on AVERAGE, so I did not dictate how to spend your time. Trying to ridicule someone who is trying to help you make attaining your goal more comfortable just looks bad on your part. You expect DE to just hand you "the good stuff" like legendary arcanes and all primed mods in 2 weeks time? how is that in any way good for their business model? For DE you either spend the time boosting their numbers or you pay them, simple as that.

Yes it is 2024 and the first real thing you have to grind out a little bit is the necramech and railjack (i'm against locking quests after grinds, so yes this one is scummy), but i presume you skipped necramech (necraloid has neutral rank). The oldest grind system currently not shortcutted in the game is the lich/sister system, which granted takes a lot of time to farm out and even more to master the weapons, bonus its bonus damage is based on rng but can be increased with valence fusion, or by paying plat for the variant you want. YOU authored a thread calling this system outdated and calling for its removal. You did not want to invest time in eidolon farming for arcanes, but then also call the shortcut for the eidolon hunts outdated, i mean what do you want DE to do? Lose money so they can no longer sustain the game? Just so you can have your cake and eat it?

See the pattern appear? What DE wants: players spending time playing their game or paying for the items they want either directly or indirectly, you call the systems they made to benefit their businessmodel outdated and start ranting about them, only to start criticizing the shortcuts to the items as well.

Calling all systems that you don't like outdated because you don't get what you want fast enough has the same vibe as a toddler throwing a tantrum because his mother said he could not get the toy they want 3 weeks before christmas instead of on christmas.

I happen to be lucky being in a clan that invites their members to monthly events in which plat is handed out as a price for little games they organize like parcour competitions and such. So a lot of decent weapons and frames i got i just bought for plat to circumvent the grind(speaking mainly of prime weapons and warframes). Yes i bought voidrig because i was really upset by the fact that this was a huge roadblock in the middle of a questline hindering you to progress the questline.

The amp i built was to faster kill void angels on the zarimans missions in the first place for faster pinion farm. I decided to not farm eidolons because i didn´t want to burn my self out, which was stated by several sources could easily happen by doing so.

I just was lucky to have had a ton of time to spare since i started with warframe but that doesn´t mean it´s still the case.

I wonder who defines the thresholds for being a casual or not i definetly define myself as an casual. There will allways be phases with more playtime and phases with less playtime.

I never tried to ridicule you i tried to make a point by pointing out that the design forces you to invest a significant time to do a specific task in order to achieve a goal in a given limited timeframe. While that´s not a bad thing per se it´s the parameters that makes or brakes a deal an the philosophy of DE imo regarding this is outdated aswell as the grindwall in the basegame besides the event. And i highly doubt DE is in any significant danger of losing money when they decrease several grindwalls further and focus more on quality content with engaging design.

Furthermore i never said they shall hand me the stuff in 2 weeks time thats just you trying to exaggerate valid points of criticism which btw are, as i see it,  shared by the majority of people who have voiced their opinion in this thread.

The ridicule part is your own projection on what i said that´s not my problem to be honest and given the fact that you´re trying to ridicule my arguments with statements like "just so you can have your cake and eat it" shows that you don´t accept the opinions of others but try to convince and force others to accept your side of the story. On top of it you call it a tantrum from my side and comparing it to an impatient toddler is evidence that you can´t come up with any  objective argument to participate in this discussion. Man if you´re angry at me that´s not my fault i have said nothing that justifies your anger and aggression. I just stated how i see the situation and it´s my god damn given right to do so if you like it or not. And just because you don´t like what i said doesn´t give you the right to come here and throw this whole bunch of BS on me.

Edited June 22 by Clegz

[Oreades]

On 2024-06-19 at 1:51 PM, BR31 said:

kinda crazy indeed, still hope it's a typo.

people just said to me it was 12 on the devstream, really reasonable, but where has over x3.8 come from then?

Without fail every time that I have given the benefit of the doubt to any game particularly free to play it has ALWAYS ended up being "working as intended"

Plus we've already had two hotfixes without any adjustment to arcane pricing.

[dreadgame]

"I want popular meta shiny and I want it now and for free" entitled mindset

[Chaotictempleknight]

23 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

yes comparatively the price of a legendary arcane is steep, but then again the effort for one is still less than past events, but i get the fact it does not feel nice to get away from a mission and think you have so little to show for it, but that is helas the way it is. and yes it gets monotonous quick, at least now you can get a bit of reward from normal alerts instead of 1 mission only.

I legitimately appreciate that DE did that, the mote alerts. It does help make the whole thing not feel completely hopeless (plus I like seeing the old alert system come back. Nostalgia and whatnot).

Still, I'm not grinding out full sets at 46 per arcane. Rank 3? sure. I'm willing to grind, but I'm not grinding that much.

[3xt1inct]

2 hours ago, Clegz said:

 

I never tried to ridicule you i tried to make a point by pointing out that the design forces you to invest a significant time to do a specific task in order to achieve a goal in a given limited timeframe. While that´s not a bad thing per se it´s the parameters that makes or brakes a deal an the philosophy of DE imo regarding this is outdated aswell as the grindwall in the basegame besides the event. And i highly doubt DE is in any significant danger of losing money when they decrease several grindwalls further and focus more on quality content with engaging design.

Furthermore i never said they shall hand me the stuff in 2 weeks time thats just you trying to exaggerate valid points of criticism which btw are, as i see it,  shared by the majority of people who have voiced their opinion in this thread.

The ridicule part is your own projection on what i said that´s not my problem to be honest and given the fact that you´re trying to ridicule my arguments with statements like "just so you can have your cake and eat it" shows that you don´t accept the opinions of others but try to convince and force others to accept your side of the story. On top of it you call it a tantrum from my side and comparing it to an impatient toddler is evidence that you can´t come up with any  objective argument to participate in this discussion. Man if you´re angry at me that´s not my fault i have said nothing that justifies your anger and aggression. I just stated how i see the situation and it´s my god damn given right to do so if you like it or not. And just because you don´t like what i said doesn´t give you the right to come here and throw this whole bunch of BS on me.

Honestly you are just actively trying to trigger me at this point, they decrease new player grind to keep new players who still have a longer potential playtime than you to retain them, while they try retaining mid- end game players by increasing grinds, thus boosting retention in both demographics, so saying stuff like "DE can't be losing money cuz they decrease old grinds" well shortening the way to the mid game from the early game makes them money, because players already tasted that power fantasy and then get thrown into the real grind, this is where the general idea of "the tutorial ends after the sacrifice" comes from, after that quest you start to have some time investment to unlock the next part (new war). That tutorial keeps moving up with time, due to DE shortening it to retain new players. This is something i have repeated 3x now in this thread.

If you were just stating how you see the situation you would not have tried to counter with all the different possibilities where my "schedule" (according to you) would not apply, if you were not salty that someone came up with an idea that countered the thing you brought up about "Big Grind". Honestly the only thing you have shown is that you do not think or approach your own opinions critically as you persistently keep failing to see that I'm not operating from my opinion, but from facts and the reality within the capitalistic system we live in. God bless us for Capitalism right? What I'm trying to do is give you facts and statements on why you should not complain about the grind in this event because it is not only the shortest grind for these items ever, its not obligating daily play by imposing a mote/day limit, like DE did with Scarlet credits in operation scarlet spear, You should be nothing less than grateful that DE puts up these kinds of events so people who miss arcanes or don't like the way they are originally acquired get the opportunity to acquire them while bypassing the huge amount of time it would otherwise take.

I did not ridicule you, "have your cake and eat it too" is a very common expression for wanting incompatible things, if you get what you want (no grind for everything) than warframe would lose player retention, numbers and in game purchases over night as well as a big dive in popularity, which concludes in the game shutting down, then again showing you wanted to commit on average 4 hours a day meant you did somewhere deep down did like the game, thus the expression is very aptly used here, no ridicule.

The exaggeration was on purpose to highlight that what you call "valid points of criticism" are plainly unrealistic and impossible if the game and DE want to sustain themselves. An exaggeration is a figure of speech used to highlight unrealistic things, in this case your unrealistic expectations.

It's not that i don't accept the opinions of others, you attacked my observations, testing and possible insight into why DE called this event "less burn out inducing", to which you actively ridiculing my arguments by calling them wobbly and telling me you flat out did not believe my testing, timing, experimenting and mathematics, after which you got more hostile with every comment you made on mine,

I did come with objective arguments, mathematics, testing, timing etc, which you flat out rejected so don't try and do mental gymnastics saying i did not come with objective arguments while i have been doing nothing else. Just shows i was right on the money coming to your character, which triggered you and then came up with the "no objective statements" as a last resort, while not being true. Anyway got 60 volatile motes for 6 mins of playtime while writing this.

To further reinforce my point, more and more ppl in this thread keep popping up that agree on the facts that I brought.

honestly its time to drop a Git Gud Scrub, wish you much luck in the reality of todays world, and being a casual in anything while doing it for 4 hrs a day!

2 hours ago, dreadgame said:

"I want popular meta shiny and I want it now and for free" entitled mindset

yep and failing to see how they are acting and behaving makes it so much more sad.

[3xt1inct]

1 hour ago, Chaotictempleknight said:

I legitimately appreciate that DE did that, the mote alerts. It does help make the whole thing not feel completely hopeless (plus I like seeing the old alert system come back. Nostalgia and whatnot).

Still, I'm not grinding out full sets at 46 per arcane. Rank 3? sure. I'm willing to grind, but I'm not grinding that much.

this is exactly how i feel i had the luck of playing a little bit of scarlet spear (it was great fun, most fun event imo unless you did not get a space squad when doing ground) and got some arcanes to r3, gargoyles cry was so monotonous i finished energize and called it quits, but with these alerts I am finally feeling like finishing the eidolon set. 

and tbh the r3 arcanes enable all the functionality you need for builds, r5 arcanes are well and truly just a luxury.

[Clegz]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 3xt1inct:

Honestly you are just actively trying to trigger me at this point, they decrease new player grind to keep new players who still have a longer potential playtime than you to retain them, while they try retaining mid- end game players by increasing grinds, thus boosting retention in both demographics, so saying stuff like "DE can't be losing money cuz they decrease old grinds" well shortening the way to the mid game from the early game makes them money, because players already tasted that power fantasy and then get thrown into the real grind, this is where the general idea of "the tutorial ends after the sacrifice" comes from, after that quest you start to have some time investment to unlock the next part (new war). That tutorial keeps moving up with time, due to DE shortening it to retain new players. This is something i have repeated 3x now in this thread.

If you were just stating how you see the situation you would not have tried to counter with all the different possibilities where my "schedule" (according to you) would not apply, if you were not salty that someone came up with an idea that countered the thing you brought up about "Big Grind". Honestly the only thing you have shown is that you do not think or approach your own opinions critically as you persistently keep failing to see that I'm not operating from my opinion, but from facts and the reality within the capitalistic system we live in. God bless us for Capitalism right? What I'm trying to do is give you facts and statements on why you should not complain about the grind in this event because it is not only the shortest grind for these items ever, its not obligating daily play by imposing a mote/day limit, like DE did with Scarlet credits in operation scarlet spear, You should be nothing less than grateful that DE puts up these kinds of events so people who miss arcanes or don't like the way they are originally acquired get the opportunity to acquire them while bypassing the huge amount of time it would otherwise take.

I did not ridicule you, "have your cake and eat it too" is a very common expression for wanting incompatible things, if you get what you want (no grind for everything) than warframe would lose player retention, numbers and in game purchases over night as well as a big dive in popularity, which concludes in the game shutting down, then again showing you wanted to commit on average 4 hours a day meant you did somewhere deep down did like the game, thus the expression is very aptly used here, no ridicule.

The exaggeration was on purpose to highlight that what you call "valid points of criticism" are plainly unrealistic and impossible if the game and DE want to sustain themselves. An exaggeration is a figure of speech used to highlight unrealistic things, in this case your unrealistic expectations.

It's not that i don't accept the opinions of others, you attacked my observations, testing and possible insight into why DE called this event "less burn out inducing", to which you actively ridiculing my arguments by calling them wobbly and telling me you flat out did not believe my testing, timing, experimenting and mathematics, after which you got more hostile with every comment you made on mine,

I did come with objective arguments, mathematics, testing, timing etc, which you flat out rejected so don't try and do mental gymnastics saying i did not come with objective arguments while i have been doing nothing else. Just shows i was right on the money coming to your character, which triggered you and then came up with the "no objective statements" as a last resort, while not being true. Anyway got 60 volatile motes for 6 mins of playtime while writing this.

To further reinforce my point, more and more ppl in this thread keep popping up that agree on the facts that I brought.

honestly its time to drop a Git Gud Scrub, wish you much luck in the reality of todays world, and being a casual in anything while doing it for 4 hrs a day!

yep and failing to see how they are acting and behaving makes it so much more sad.

No i don´t want to trigger you, show me where i got more hostile or any hostile communication towards you personally. All i did was disputing your thesis which was based on optimal farming condition for maximum farming efficiency which are not conditions everybody has access to. Nothing said about "i don´t believe you or your calculations" on my side i just said they´re wobbly because they are based on optimal conditions and are therefore disputable. "have your cake and eat it too" is not what you said, you said "just so you can have your cake and eat it" which literally means "i don´t care about people with less time or burnout resistance its their fault" in this context. The former comes across as an invitation and the latter is more like exclusion. 

Ever thought about maybe the decrease of burnout potential has still not hit the sweetspot? How come others see it the same way or have a similiar impression? Are they all "I want popular meta shiny and I want it now and for free" entitled mindset beings like someone commented? Which by the way is such a worn out killerphrase and brings nothing constructive to the table and just shows the toxic stance towards other people with different perspectives on a given framework.

Yes i liked the game and i still like it in parts but i allready stopped playing it 3 weeks ago because of burnout and just came back to see what Jade Shadows has to offer.

 

Edited June 22 by Clegz

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

2 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

4 hours ago, dreadgame said:

"I want popular meta shiny and I want it now and for free" entitled mindset

yep and failing to see how they are acting and behaving makes it so much more sad.

*sigh* *shrug*

The fun-duh-men-tul point of this being a problem is that this is not permanent content. It is temporary content that presents a highly lucrative reward that requires an alarming commitment of time investment to acquire, not a do-it-whenever over years, but a get-it-while-it-lasts over one month.

It encourages, it BECKONS a FOMO mindset, regardless of the cap, regardless of the non-event sources of the same thing, regardless (and in spite of) trading. It is one thing if a game has a lot of progression and content spanning years, but it is another if that game encourages problematic levels of time commitment in an average given day. There is also the factor of less contingency for players who join mid-event, only to find that even if they burn the candle at both ends, they wont "make it in time".

Pressure you feel in control of creates diamonds; Pressure you don't creates rubble.

[dreadgame]

20 minutes ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

*sigh* *shrug*

The fun-duh-men-tul point of this being a problem is that this is not permanent content. It is temporary content that presents a highly lucrative reward that requires an alarming commitment of time investment to acquire, not a do-it-whenever over years, but a get-it-while-it-lasts over one month.

It encourages, it BECKONS a FOMO mindset, regardless of the cap, regardless of the non-event sources of the same thing, regardless (and in spite of) trading. It is one thing if a game has a lot of progression and content spanning years, but it is another if that game encourages problematic levels of time commitment in an average given day. There is also the factor of less contingency for players who join mid-event, only to find that even if they burn the candle at both ends, they wont "make it in time".

Pressure you feel in control of creates diamonds; Pressure you don't creates rubble.

are the arcanes locked to event only? no other ways to acquire them if you really want them?

Events such as Belly of the Beast present an opportunity for a SHORTCUT, that's all it is

[WisdomOfTheWoods]

59 minutes ago, dreadgame said:

are the arcanes locked to event only? no other ways to acquire them if you really want them?

Events such as Belly of the Beast present an opportunity for a SHORTCUT, that's all it is

1 hour ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

The fun-duh-men-tul point of this being a problem is that this is not permanent content. It is temporary content that presents a highly lucrative reward that requires an alarming commitment of time investment to acquire, not a do-it-whenever over years, but a get-it-while-it-lasts over one month.

A time-locked shortcut.

It is a shortcut, that people are allowed MUCH less time to participate in than the non-event process to get the same thing. A time-locked shortcut that, as a result, requires a larger fraction of the time given to complete (this is just food for thought; any event will be this way). The idea of having too many of these from the events is dampened by the sheer fact that there is a buy limit, and it requires at least Uranus; this still wont stop, or even slow down dedicated bot farms, however.

A time-locked shortcut that encourages someone to put this amount of time into the month towards the thing/s in question, at the risk of them feeling cheated later on if they don't, should be alarming.

Let me send you a whole pie in the mail and ill give you some unranked arcane energizes depending on how much you finish. You can't feed it to your pets or share it with other people (etc.), or you would be disqualified. Also its probably not going to be a flavor you like... Or I can just send you multiple pies and finishing each one is worth an unranked energize.

...For some people who love pie (especially with the flavor in question), it would feel like a bonus, but for people who don't (also especially with the flavor in question), they would only bother with it for the reward, not enjoying those pie bites.

I don't know why, but I felt like putting that weird allegory in there. Moral of the story:

1 hour ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

Pressure you feel in control of creates diamonds; Pressure you don't creates rubble.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

Yes they decrease the grind, still some grind is necessary for a healthy business model, you pay one way or another either with your time or your money, that is just how games like this survive, so the duality of the problem is that without the grind, the game would not exist, but with the grind players like you keep complaining about the opportunity for entertainment DE provide. That is just how the organisational side of the game works. How do you keep the free to play players playing? by having that grind aspect. It is not that i absolutely love it, don't get me wrong, it is just unrealistic to think that any of your proposed changes will be implemented due to the organisational and financial repercussions for DE itself. I choose to accept the grind because i like the game and would love to see it survive for a little while longer. 

I get it. I know that grind is necessary. However sometimes it's too much (not saying that current event but in general).

9 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

i mean i took a look at your in game profile, you have 3880hrs logged of in game time, you have less than 100 entities to lvl out and i guess you are the type of player that played a lot in the beginning and then returned to play again for a week at a time. you have enough mastery points to get to lr2 you clearly did the eidolons because you thought you had to (which i get, dont like em either). You should know that there is a lot of quantity from a new player perspective, but from our perspective there is not, both perspectives are equally valid though. However this feeling of not getting quantity is made stronger by the fact that there are already so many mods for weapons, so new ones don't offer anything new other than possible new interactions (locking fire rate in case of cannonade) and yes the game is not catering all that well to its end game players, true, weekly missions are not enough agreed. For vets contentwise Dante unbound did bring more than the recent update, then again he was massively delayed (EDA struggles). That aside the fact there is a lot of quantity for new players is the grind DE would like to keep going strong, it's new accounts that they hope will end up like yours, 3880 hours in game and almost everything done. I was commenting in this thread from the new player perspective when talking about grind, which i thought was clear when i told the thread they massively reduced burn out in new player grind (lower tiered arcanes are very easy to get with this iteration of the event loottable).

From new player perspective this game is big. Not gonna denny it. Even you slice 20% of good stuff it would be still a lot. But from older players... that's different story.

9 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

Quality, well yes this depends heavily on what you define as quality, yes there is no gearbalancing, so you will see that typical meta style, are there a lot of weapons that are great picks from the get go? no, most of the weapons can be classed as mr fodder, which is kinda sad, but a lot of them have better variants that are still good and are very much viable in all content. you seem to describe quality as the ability to use all of your loadout at all times (1), this is unrealistic from a coding standpoint, either these interactions that are not possible caused bugs and issues that currently have not been resolved (like styanax 4th) (2), the extend-o melee weapon interactions were patched out with the nerf of attack range, when zaws were used to create melee weapons that strike through walls etc. It is not that the Dev likes to limit the player, but coding needs to be able to keep up as well. Further, removing the limits on these interactions would also impact the individuality and uniqueness some frames enjoy, first and foremost this would break exalted and semi exalted weapons. (3)

1) Maybe not all the time but most of the time. Like aiming for 5 seconds using Styanax/4 is not great quality. Qorvex/4 at least let's you deactivate it. In general if something takes N things it should give you 'near' N different things as well. Yareli/Merulina cannot even roll.

2) The thing is there weren't serious issues. Like, Staynax/4 could fly (casting more than one 4th in the air without landing). So what? I slap gravity/aimglide mods on Xaku and I would do similar things. But we forget that 1st jumps and mess your aim (afair)? Not issue. Or that it hasn't done ANYTHING when you hit Eximus (with og)? Well we have augment at least. Or you could cast other abilities during 4th? So what? I can cast any abilities during shooting.

3) My point is that there is so many limitations that there is not many individuality/uniqueness. Like what Xaku is? Everyone would tell you it's moving turret. Protea has turrets as well. Not very similar... but then comes augment. Have anyone used disarming/cc aspect of xaku (1st/2nd)? Not many. Nowadays it's almost impossible BECAUSE they put limit on it, farther increasing Xaku's lack of individuality/uniqueness.

[3xt1inct]

5 hours ago, Clegz said:

No i don´t want to trigger you, show me where i got more hostile or any hostile communication towards you personally. All i did was disputing your thesis which was based on optimal farming condition for maximum farming efficiency which are not conditions everybody has access to.

I dont need this part its just to make sure you see it. AND I IMPLORE YOU TO READ THE FULL MESSAGE THIS TIME, DONT JUST SKIP TO CONCLUSIONS BEFORE READING IT THOROUGHLY.

Well this is where it all went wrong, you failed to grasp the utility of the COMPARISON NOT A HYPOTHESIS, it was never a hypothesis, it was a comparison of obtained data, yes i and a group of players log almost every run we do in the events we play in to gauge performance, this comparison was based on testing and real world results, NOT THEORY. I was also kind enough to put every parameter in favor of the last event. As i aimed to display the best possible comparison with the best possible experience playing both events.

First of all why use a COMPARISON? a comparison is use to put 2 things next to each other to evaluate both subjects within the same set of parameters, so we can look at which one of them has a COMPARATIVE OR ABSOLUTE advantage. It does not matter whether someone only plays public lobbies, solo or with a bad team, if an event while at its best lags behind another, it will lag behind even further when worse versions of these parameters are chosen. 

I will explain this comparison once again since you failed to grasp its utility, this COMPARISON compares the speed at which you can obtain arcanes. The parameters used to make the comparison are mentioned in the message below (my first message in this forum btw).

On 2024-06-21 at 2:41 PM, 3xt1inct said:

so lets list how long it takes to get a legendary set in botb and compare it to gargoyle's cry, excluding mission alerts (due to gargoyle's cry and most previous events not having alerts) and assuming a good running team for SP (arcanes/runtime of 1 successful mission):

• bronze arcanes:  in botb avg 12 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 11 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 1.3 arcanes/8 mins or avg 2 hrs 9 mins for a set
• silver arcanes : in botb avg 4 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 32 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.8 arcanes/ 8 mins  or avg 3 hrs 30 mins for a set
• gold arcanes: in botb avg 2.4 arcanes/6 mins full set in avg 53 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.66 arcanes/8 mins or avg 4 hrs 15 mins for a set
• legendary arcanes: in botb avg 0.26 arcanes/ 6 mins full set in avg 8 hrs 4 mins, compared to gargoyle's cry: 0.3 arcanes/8 mins or avg 9 hrs 20 mins for a set.
• Just to bring the point across that with mission alerts those times for the arcanes in botb go down a lot

Yes the legendaries take more effort to obtain, that is why they are legendary, why are you complaining about getting those great items faster than ever before?

IMPORTANT NOTES CONSIDERING THIS COMPARISON: the parameters have been chosen in such a way that we can compare the most lucrative version of the event. these parameters made sure both events were compared on equal ground. If we take other parameters gargoyles cry falls behind massively. I will give a few examples here.

Lets include the mission alerts during this event:

• every 30 mins you get the opportunity to play a mission that takes on avg 3 mins (yes also have this data) for 15 volatile motes this means the average time goes down and the arcanes go up P.E in case of the bronze arcanes it would become 12.5 arcanes/5.5 mins (ceteris paribus). => botb gets even faster, gargoyles cry stays the same

Lets take the average public lobby team instead of the good team

• Ascension time goes up by 2 mins on average, coming to 8 min (17s), gargoyle's cry assassination goes up by a full 6 mins on average, coming to 14 mins (31s) (ceteris paribus)
  this parameter favored gargoyles cry the most. botb gets a storming lead here

Lets take normal star chart instead of SP

• botb expected motes/run goes from 12 to 7, gargoyle's cry expected grotesque splinters/run goes from 4 to 2 (ceteris paribus).
  Here gains botb comparative speed over gargoyle's cry as well

As an exercise for the mind lets compile all these parameters together in a new comparison for bronze and legendary arcanes for SP runs, as normal star chart rewards get halved for both and thus acquisition time for both doubles:

• bronze arcanes: botb 13 arcanes/7 mins || gargoyle's : 1.3 arcanes/14 mins ===> for bronze arcanes botb is 20x faster in the avg public lobby in SP
• legendary arcanes: botb: 0.28 arcanes/7 mins || gargoyle's : 0.33 arcanes/14 mins ===> for legendary arcanes botb is 1.75x faster in the avg public lobby in SP

This differency only increases further in favor of botb 

I hope this clears up any and all confusion about the COMPARISON, this is all based on real data comprised of over 2400 runs of gargoyle's cry and currently 600 runs of botb and counting (this includes alerts but they get separated for comparative purposes). These runs were performed/are being performed by a group of 30 players 

now lets pick apart some incorrect statements in your last message

The personal attack was you ridiculing the statement i made about the average 40 mins/day for 21 days.

5 hours ago, Clegz said:

Nothing said about "i don´t believe you or your calculations" on my side i just said they´re wobbly because they are based on optimal conditions and are therefore disputable.

Well lookie here: "my opinion on this would be no" is you not believing the data presented, granted that is your right however it is data that keeps getting confirmed more and more as each day passes. the mission times used were actual mission times ran by actual players in all kinds of different scenarios just so we could account for every variable possible. In the message below proof of you directly stating you don't believe the data. You also did not say my calculations were wobbly, you stated that about the lower tiered arcanes argument which was derived from data, please be specific so you can avoid these kinds of mistakes. Might i add that players go for whatever arcane they want no matter if they can get a full set or not, neither you nor me know the reasons for other players to chose what arcane they buy. The lower tiered arcanes acquisition time being 20x faster does help combatting burnout, maybe you just don't want to see it due to your own conformity bias, where your opinion is influenced by others like you for whom it is their 1st event. players dont get locked out of arcanes, maybe you need more than 1 event to r5 them, sure, but as i said time and again r3 offer the exact same functionality in terms of builds and ranks 4-5 are luxury. There is also the fact that these types of events will return in the future. Most of the build enabling arcanes are the lower tiered ones ( you mentioned this in another message). 

On 2024-06-21 at 4:32 PM, Clegz said:

Not everyone runs SP and not everyone has a good running team i´d argue the majority go in with randoms or solo and not in SP. So your argument and calculation just considers the most optimal conditions to farm. But that doesn´t depict the reality. On top of it it´s quite disputable if the time needed under your described conditions are reasonable in the first place. My opinion to this would be no.

Further your argument of burnout elimination via lower tiered arcane prices is kind of wobbly because the incentive to grind for them is enhanced due to the fact that higher ones are more costly thus even more timeintensive so players with less time to spend logically prioritize lower tiered arcanes as they are cheaper no matter if it´s this event or past events with slightly higher prices. So the player goes for what he can get in his available time to play and the majority of players are not nolifers. That leaves a bad aftertaste.

The result in the end is that this design locks players with less time out of obtaining higher tier arcanes by design and that never is a good healthy approach.

 

5 hours ago, Clegz said:

 "have your cake and eat it too" is not what you said, you said "just so you can have your cake and eat it" which literally means "i don´t care about people with less time or burnout resistance its their fault" in this context. The former comes across as an invitation and the latter is more like exclusion. 

No man English is a language, figures of speech can be altered to fit the sentence they are used in "just so you can have your cake and eat it (too)" is that expression directed to you and other people that plea for the same thing, because you do want incompatible things. Adapting expressions and using figures of speech is just the basics of reading, writing and speaking a language, it's not meant as an invitation or exclusion, it's an expression, an analogy if you will. I won't discus this particular point further, look it up in the cambridge dictionary if you need to, this is not the first time you seemingly had difficulty understanding English, it might as well not be your first language which is fine, but then you need to be extra careful when quoting and explaining your opinion vs my facts, stats and data.

5 hours ago, Clegz said:

Ever thought about maybe the decrease of burnout potential has still not hit the sweetspot? How come others see it the same way or have a similiar impression? Are they all "I want popular meta shiny and I want it now and for free" entitled mindset beings like someone commented? Which by the way is such a worn out killerphrase and brings nothing constructive to the table and just shows the toxic stance towards other people with different perspectives on a given framework.

Yes i liked the game and i still like it in parts but i allready stopped playing it 3 weeks ago because of burnout and just came back to see what Jade Shadows has to offer.

 

Sure every game has some kind of burnout potential, even real life has burnout potential, DE never said they were looking for the sweet spot, they were looking into combating it, what they meant by that is reducing that potential, which they did as proven by the stats and data in the revisited comparison at the start of this message. furthermore, to offer another perspective, the scarlet spear event had limited amounts of credits you could gain/day, so that forced daily play to be able to claim all rewards, which was even more burnout inducing than gargoyle's cry, but letting players buy unlimited arcanes sent players to the hospital etc. due to very few sleeping hours etc., it's this type of extreme behaviour DE intended to combat with the arcane purchase limit, also the limit is set at 2 sets, if you only want your own, why complain about the limit?

Others that see it in a similar impression suffer the same conformity bias as you do, it's their first event with arcanes in the droptable and more experienced players advertise it as a "free arcanes event", then the unexperienced player is met with 8 hr grind times and feels betrayed and resorts to complaining about it, this has been the case for the 2nd, 3rd and now 4th (botb) event with the arcane loot table. Even though it is faster than ever before, you still won't like it because it is not "free arcanes" like your clanmates told you.
Its a typical example of conformity (ppl in the same situation), anchoring (relying on first impressions and info, without doing further research) and framing (the info was presented in way that made you perceive it as something else that it actually is) biases.

Yes, some players are of the type "i want meta shiny now and for free", they usually last as long as there definition of free lasts, this is not saying you belong to this category, 4 hrs/ day is a significant time investment. This time investment also means you are not a casual, even though you dont like me saying it, but most professional athletes spend 4 hrs/ day to their sport of choice, i would not call them casuals in their sport.

I agree that the statement doesn't bring anything useful to work with, it does show how tired the realists are from these kinds of forum threads popping up again every arcane event. It is not people being toxic to other people's opinions or stances, it's for them just the case that the same thing happens all over again and the same things get said even when the conditions of the event have been improved again.

I encourage taking breaks from warframe and revisiting later, its how many players play/enjoy the game.

 

P.S. sorry for the wall of text, but i really do hope you can learn something here, read it and take your time, ask for clarification wherever you need.

Edited June 22 by 3xt1inct
forgot to add the P.S.

[3xt1inct]

1 hour ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

A time-locked shortcut.

It is a shortcut, that people are allowed MUCH less time to participate in than the non-event process to get the same thing. A time-locked shortcut that, as a result, requires a larger fraction of the time given to complete (this is just food for thought; any event will be this way). The idea of having too many of these from the events is dampened by the sheer fact that there is a buy limit, and it requires at least Uranus; this still wont stop, or even slow down dedicated bot farms, however.

A time-locked shortcut that encourages someone to put this amount of time into the month towards the thing/s in question, at the risk of them feeling cheated later on if they don't, should be alarming.

Let me send you a whole pie in the mail and ill give you some unranked arcane energizes depending on how much you finish. You can't feed it to your pets or share it with other people (etc.), or you would be disqualified. Also its probably not going to be a flavor you like... Or I can just send you multiple pies and finishing each one is worth an unranked energize.

...For some people who love pie (especially with the flavor in question), it would feel like a bonus, but for people who don't (also especially with the flavor in question), they would only bother with it for the reward, not enjoying those pie bites.

I don't know why, but I felt like putting that weird allegory in there. Moral of the story:

yeah sure it is a time locked shortcut, that is a fact, nevertheless you don't have to complete the whole loottable in 1 event, that choice is up to you, FOMO is something tricky i get it, but these kinds of events will return in the future and seeing how DE is decreasing the grind probably more frequent as well, parallel to how prime resurgence used to be 2 frames for 1 month/ year than 4 frames 2 in one month and 2 in the other, and so on, till you arive in the present where every month 2 vaulted frames emerge again. Arcane events will probably end up like the prime resurgence.

4 minutes ago, quxier said:

I get it. I know that grind is necessary. However sometimes it's too much (not saying that current event but in general).

From new player perspective this game is big. Not gonna denny it. Even you slice 20% of good stuff it would be still a lot. But from older players... that's different story.

1) Maybe not all the time but most of the time. Like aiming for 5 seconds using Styanax/4 is not great quality. Qorvex/4 at least let's you deactivate it. In general if something takes N things it should give you 'near' N different things as well. Yareli/Merulina cannot even roll.

2) The thing is there weren't serious issues. Like, Staynax/4 could fly (casting more than one 4th in the air without landing). So what? I slap gravity/aimglide mods on Xaku and I would do similar things. But we forget that 1st jumps and mess your aim (afair)? Not issue. Or that it hasn't done ANYTHING when you hit Eximus (with og)? Well we have augment at least. Or you could cast other abilities during 4th? So what? I can cast any abilities during shooting.

3) My point is that there is so many limitations that there is not many individuality/uniqueness. Like what Xaku is? Everyone would tell you it's moving turret. Protea has turrets as well. Not very similar... but then comes augment. Have anyone used disarming/cc aspect of xaku (1st/2nd)? Not many. Nowadays it's almost impossible BECAUSE they put limit on it, farther increasing Xaku's lack of individuality/uniqueness.

I agree with the first 2 comments, and yes the too much grind makes it so that events like botb are greatly appreciated, because it eliminates so much of that grind.

1) yeah the 5 second aim lock is a pain for styanax players, but i gotta ask for clarification on the Yareli/Merulina, do you mean the warframe roll, or the k-drive roll?

2) Well Styanax's fourth ability used to not lock you out of the rest of the abilities and the character was so buggy they used this to patch the bugs. if i remember correctly.

3) I love Xaku and am very much looking forward to a prime, that aside i feel like cc is being cast aside more and more in the game, but it does not help that Xata's whisper is also a very good dmg buff and that Grasp of lohk not only takes the weapons of your enemies but uses the weapons against them as well, the limit on his 2 primarily stems from the fact that the weapons can shoot auto-turret style, if left unlimited the community would have a field day. He is an armor stripping turret for most people but i like him (i know its supposed to be "them", im alluding to the warframe and "them" does not fit the sentence well)

[quxier]

1 hour ago, 3xt1inct said:

1) yeah the 5 second aim lock is a pain for styanax players, but i gotta ask for clarification on the Yareli/Merulina, do you mean the warframe roll, or the k-drive roll?

I mean that Yareli on Merulina (no augment) she doesn't roll.

First rolling uses stuffs like Rolling guard. Merulina doesn't trigger it (unless they have changed it).

Secondly, rolls are supposed to be short repositioning of frame. Those are too big.

1 hour ago, 3xt1inct said:

2) Well Styanax's fourth ability used to not lock you out of the rest of the abilities and the character was so buggy they used this to patch the bugs. if i remember correctly.

It wasn't that buggy. Seriously, frames get worse stuff not changed (some may be intentional). I've not seen any huge bug.

Casting abilities during 4th were because it's "channeling abilities doesn't" which is weak argument as it's "some do allow cast, some don't or mixed".

1 hour ago, 3xt1inct said:

3) I love Xaku and am very much looking forward to a prime, that aside i feel like cc is being cast aside more and more in the game, but it does not help that Xata's whisper is also a very good dmg buff and that Grasp of lohk not only takes the weapons of your enemies but uses the weapons against them as well, the limit on his 2 primarily stems from the fact that the weapons can shoot auto-turret style, if left unlimited the community would have a field day.

Xaku is (was) just too good. Every time I mention something to change, people just say it's too good and they don't need any change.

And limiting number of guns were seriously weird move. Like, I grab 15 guns, disarm enemies and just stand there melting them? No problem. Disarming enemies by engaging in game? NO! When they say they don't like AFK and see what kind of style they "force" xaku into then I see what kind of activity they want. Just slaping arbitrary keys.

[dreadgame]

4 hours ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

 requires a larger fraction of the time given to complete

could be yes in the very extreme case but usually no and here's why:
The event is very easy to do even on SP which can average 6-7 mins per run, it's also a guaranteed drop in that you turn in the rewards to buy it. Now compare that to a 5% chance to drop on missions that usually take longer depending on your expertise, specs, and all the preparations needed. I can't tell you about Orphix as I haven't played much of it but I doubt 1% drop rate makes it any better.

 

4 hours ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

...For some people who love pie (especially with the flavor in question), it would feel like a bonus, but for people who don't (also especially with the flavor in question), they would only bother with it for the reward, not enjoying those pie bites.

Welcome to online games. Do you think every participant enjoy doing the same task over and over even assuming they did like it from the start? Of course not, players are incentivized mostly by the rewards, that's how all of this is are structured. That's what gives or take away value from things for trade purposes or even plat sales.

 

4 hours ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

not enjoying those pie bites.

They are allowed to leave the pie store or ignore the free pie.
This game is free and most content accessible, not every content should be spoonfed to casuals, the devs don't deserve to starve that way.

 

6 hours ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

Pressure you feel in control of creates diamonds; Pressure you don't creates rubble.

You choose your priorities. You get the rewards you deserve.

 

4 hours ago, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

A time-locked shortcut.

You keep saying this like it means anything. It's an event, it's a carnival. There will always be people who will make and others who will miss it.

[EdsBusy17]

On 2024-06-21 at 3:20 PM, Clegz said:

I also can not be bothered to farm the platinum to buy them in the market

This isn't the only message out of the others I could've quoted, but it's the one I'm choosing to use to make my point. And I'll need to put it bluntly.
This is the wrong mindset. The reason all this is in place, like it or not, is because there has to be SOME incentive for players to open their wallet. You aren't supposed to be "farming" for plat. You're supposed to buy it. This might be a free to play game but it will always favor both the payers and the nolifers. You want to minmax? Then fork over your time or your money (which still equates to time spent elsewhere). There's no "can I has everything quick?", because then there's no pressure to just hop on for an hour and be like "I'm done" all for free. This, in part, is why the grind still has to be there. The nolifers can take advantage by getting some plat for their grind, and the payers (with the stuff like log-in coupons) can simply buy them off said grinders.
This is the part people don't seem to want to grasp or simply hadn't thought about. Something needs to keep the lights on for the servers and devtime, and it's not being able to farm premium currency.

3xt1inct's been on the right track though.

On 2024-06-21 at 8:42 PM, 3xt1inct said:

For DE you either spend the time boosting their numbers or you pay them, simple as that.
 i mean what do you want DE to do? Lose money so they can no longer sustain the game? Just so you can have your cake and eat it?

See the pattern appear? What DE wants: players spending time playing their game or paying for the items they want either directly or indirectly, you call the systems they made to benefit their businessmodel outdated and start ranting about them, only to start criticizing the shortcuts to the items as well.

Calling all systems that you don't like outdated because you don't get what you want fast enough has the same vibe as a toddler throwing a tantrum because his mother said he could not get the toy they want 3 weeks before christmas instead of on christmas.

Ah. He already said it. Well now I just feel silly for typing all that out. Said what needed to be said.

On 2024-06-21 at 10:00 PM, WisdomOfTheWoods said:

as an easier time getting the rewards would simply benefit everyone

Seeing as how that would directly decrease sales numbers, I have to disagree.

On 2024-06-21 at 11:54 PM, MrShvaber said:

"You need grind ~10000 green goo which takes ~5 days pure time".

Bro don't even REMIND ME of those infernal mutagen samples

[-_WARL0RD_-]

Time limited Event. Price of obtaining the good rewards and amount of time it would take for rerun's again and again to get the required currency results into player fatigue and burnout.

 

I would say this would negatively impact the players physiological well being. 

 

Looking at the age of the game and lack of new innovations to the game I think DE are at the mercy of the players. End of the game is only running due to the player base and if you can't keep your players happy then they will go elsewhere. 

 

Warframe is looking like a sinking ship at the moment. DE don't screw things up by not staying true to your commitments. 

[3xt1inct]

11 hours ago, -_WARL0RD_- said:

Time limited Event. Price of obtaining the good rewards and amount of time it would take for rerun's again and again to get the required currency results into player fatigue and burnout.

 

I would say this would negatively impact the players physiological well being. 

 

Looking at the age of the game and lack of new innovations to the game I think DE are at the mercy of the players. End of the game is only running due to the player base and if you can't keep your players happy then they will go elsewhere. 

 

Warframe is looking like a sinking ship at the moment. DE don't screw things up by not staying true to your commitments. 

Time limited events in life: Carnival, fairs, festivals, games, races, just to name a few of many. What is the common denominator though? If they do well they will return and probably with improvements.

Your psychological and physiological health are your own responsibilities, ofcourse you can be helped by a support system. If all companies had to be held accountable for their impact on psychological and physiological health, all fast food chains would go out of business, Blizzard would seize existing alongside any other game company that made a grind game sometime in its existence. You can't blaim a company for your own psychological or physiological health, you make the final choices in your life, if you feel the need to not do anything else than play warframe i suggest you pay your doctor a visit, so he/her/they can guide you to the specialist you need, yes gaming addiction is a real thing beware of it.

If a company needs to tell and incentivize you to not burn out, you have some serious self exploration to do and i would recommend therapy.

as for the required currency if you exclusively run the ascension event node you'dd need about 40 total hours of running, which does not need to happen in one sitting, but can be spread out over the whole duration of the event, with an average of 1 hr 20 mins/day, with the alerts this time shortens drastically as you can get the rewards for 5 runs (40 mins)  in 4 alerts that can take anywhere between 5- 20 mins depending on what mission the alert is on, these 1hr 20 mins is enough for every single item in the loottable btw.

This 40 hours is a serious improvement over the time needed for all rewards in past events  was between about 80-150 hours and had event token caps littered in it as well.

As someone who has been here for a long time, the game has seen more innovation than ever before, excluding on game launch. In the last 2 years we got (E)DA, Netracells, Alchemy, mirror defense, the use of different tools for storytelling, p.e. using the leverian for the Dante quest, we got stalker as a playable character, status and dmg update with jade shadows, all the grinds for frames and frame parts that they have cut short by putting them in normal circuit. DE has been innovating and reworking/retouching the game in almost every aspect over the last 3 years. If your "lack of innovation" stems from the fact that it is still always fighting and shooting, yes you are playing a looter shooter.  I would like to know if you have an example of a live service game that has shown more innovation over the past few years.

[Rawzberry]

Yeaaah... this is my tipping point. Came back to the game after a 2 year break cuz of on and off burnouts over the years... been 2 months since Iv'e been back and this week has completely burnt me out. I've been running elevator missions over and over and over and over and over again, whenever I have free time during the day between work and family stuff.

Cuz I need these arcanes, otherwise I'll never get them... and i need to spam these missions now, nonstop, otherwise i'll miss out, cuz f*ck the timegated eidolons runs that Iv'e been doing for years and years. 

That is the mindset DE wants you to have playing this game. It is not fun, it is a chore.

It was nice of them to offer more alternatives to get these arcanes... but FOMO only created the adverse of the intended effect for me. Shouldn't put a time limit on the rewards, and should drastically reduce their cost. Anyways... I'm grinding out the arcanes and then I'm shelving this game again. 

Edited Thursday at 01:38 AM by Rawzberry

[3xt1inct]

Okay so it looks like yall just ungrateful for the opportunity DE provides to you, aka playing a game you enjoy. You just keep saying the same thing over and over again without reading other comments. DE has to make money to survive, plain and simple, you either pay directly with money or indirectly with time. 
YOU handle your burnouts and FOMO and if a game puts you up to spending all your free time in it, I'm very sorry, but you have to go see a doctor; a therapist and talk to a loved one about your addiction. This is a game that will not mather much in the big picture that is your life, play to enjoy not because you think you have to.

I can also see by the liked comments that everyone is just liking whatever panders to their opinion, everyone here fails to take a step back and see the others perspective, trust me I was once one of yours until a few years ago, when i came to the realization that whatever suits the player, does not always suit the company providing, the latter is arguably more important to the survival of the game than the earlier.

DE is currently (not for much longer) a 1 game company, it has been for 11 years, are some things a bit scammy? yes, but on this particular issue, ill explain it word for word, DE needs money, what drives that? the in game market and player to player trading, because you need plat for all of it. The most commonly traded item are mods, followed by arcanes. If DE started giving those away for even less time than they do now, they would cut their own wrists financially, after already doing a bloodletting with the arcane dissolution.

Edited 22 hours ago by 3xt1inct
sent before msg was finished

[(PSN)BAM-BAM-73]

I've been playing for years, with the aim of building up arcanes over time as a long term goal.

I'm disgusted with DE that they've let me max out multiple very useful arcanes in just a few days. I demand they take them back, as now I've got less to do in the game...

Yes of course that's sarcasm, but the fact remains we've never had an easier time to get arcanes.

Burnout has been reduced by the cap.