Can we have a non-pregnant Jade skin?

[Luigispikachu]

34 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Surprised gaslighting is common here

Isn't that against the rules?

it should be, but then peoples could get around that by arguing that they aren't gaslighting, because it would be hard to prove. or I think it might be I could be wrong

[Luigispikachu]

dunno why it double posted but aigh't

Edited June 28 by Luigispikachu
can't delete duped post so y'know

[SirKeksalot]

7 hours ago, Chewarette said:

And then, you mention the "unusual instance", "nooo we're only talking about pregnancy, nothing else !!", but you know deep inside that it's a pandora box. Propose a Jade non-pregnant skin, then you have to propose a slim Grendel skin, because fatphobia exists and it'll be the next trendy topic. Or maybe a boobless warframe because some women underwent mastectomy and is triggered by boobies. And it goes on indefinitely, it can't be good for the game.

Do you even realize that getting a non-pregnant Jade skin would simply mean she has aborted ? Or had a miscarriage ? Isn't that factually even worse, specifically for the OP ?!?!?!? "God thanks this Pregnant Warframe is no longer Pregnant ! ... Wait, does it mean that..."

You can turn around the problem however you want : There will always be people triggered by something. You can't design the game around every single phobia/trauma that some people might have. It's not realistic. And in the case of Jade, it's an outright murder of the entire Warframe's design & story. Jade was literally created while being pregnant, a non-pregnant Jade doesn't exist. Deal with it. Play something else if that triggers you too much, she's not even that special to begin with gameplay-wise

It occurs to me that you're really just saying the same thing over and over. It's just a whataboutism. You keep talking about wacky scenarios without actually proving they can happen. If people were gonna be offended by something, they woulda said it. My source for this is that we now know what it looks like because it is happening now, in this very forum, in this thread. I don't think I want to reply further until you make a new comment.

You know, let's have a thought experiment. Let's pretend we didn't get a pregnant Warframe at all, but instead, we got one which somehow, even unintentionally, had homophobic or transphobic references in its design. I don't know what that entails, maybe references to self-harm and it's named a slur, it's a what-if scenario so use your imagination. Now, in this alternate timeline, let's say I am the one offended by the new Warframe, and I want something done about it because I don't want to see bigotry targeted at my identity in a game I'm playing for fun. Are you really gonna tell me to suck it up and go somewhere else? Are you really gonna tell me I don't have a right to suggest that maybe the game's insensitive and isn't accommodating my needs and I would like to play it without seeing a reminder of something I really don't need to be reminded of? I know these things aren't the same, but it's the principle of "don't like it, leave" that I'm beefing with.

6 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Not gonna lie... I think there would have been backlash with just that. To the point it would have caused problems with the update. It makes perfect sense why but... as it was mentioned before, Steve tried asking if a toggle was needed. unfortunately secrecy demanded that the question go unanswered. even now Im not sure if I could blame DE if they just kept their head down. I'd disagree but id understand the business decision as to why they'd do so.

I mean, there's some backlash now. Having slept on it, yeah, I do see more of their thought process behind choosing to make it a plot twist and not part of the premise of the quest that we meet a pregnant Warframe, but regardless, we still have the matter OP describes with not really having a way to know beforehand that the potential triggers that apply to the quest. But I get what you're saying.

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

While I understand and respect everyone's feelings, I can't help but wonder why, if she is truly passionate about this subject as you mentioned, she isn't here expressing her thoughts herself. Additionally, I'm curious about what aspect of pregnancy she finds traumatizing. Wouldn't the desire to have the 'baby' removed from the skin be the truly traumatic part that would resonate with people?

Furthermore, has she considered adjusting her playstyle to better align with her feelings? For instance, avoiding playing as Jade, leaving games featuring Jade, or opting to play solo to accommodate her concerns?

I think you're underestimating what a miscarriage does to someone. I've seen it myself, in my own family, no less. It can break you. I can understand how, if I could and did have one, I wouldn't be as positive as I am about this Warframe, and I might not be so comfortable talking about it here. Hell, I only opened up here about the insecurities I do have because OP came forth with this and inspired me to be brave.

[SirKeksalot]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

Based on my observations, individuals seeking a "belly toggle" (I will referee to as "model swap" for clarity, as the core part of a mesh cannot be simply switched off like a light or a decorative element) appear to seek a controlled debate where their logic can easily prevail. They gravitate towards arguments that fit neatly within predetermined boundaries and avoid examples like hidryn's bulkiness. When discussions veer towards examples like that and cite artistic integrity, it tends to conflict with their established views on the ideal approach usually leading them to dismiss the entire argument.

Or--hear me out--artistic integrity has nothing to do with any of this, and leaving the original design in while adding an alt version where her belly's flattened out doesn't sacrifice the integrity or merit of the original. I mean, you could say the same about gore. That's an artistic choice and it arguably works to the game's advantage to be brutal and show people getting cut in half and bleeding everywhere, it hammers in that the Origin system is a violent and treacherous place, and you are a force of destruction that stands between order and chaos. The option to turn off something triggering doesn't mess with that. Same with Jade, I believe the belly brings it all together, though I admittedly find it hard to praise her without getting derailed and sentimental.

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

To date, I have not come across a compelling argument that doesn't essentially reduce to straightforward statements such as "I dislike her appearance" or "I don't feel comfortable playing her." The reality is that individuals are not obligated to play as her; it's as simple as that.

Not a great solution for people who enjoy her playstyle but not her design. And you can extrude that logic to any criticism. Don't like another design? A mechanic? A story beat? Just leave! Except...criticism, when well-intentioned, is meant to be useful. It should be aimed at making something better or more accessible. I should be able to critique things that I don't think are good design decisions, or suggest things I think would be good for the game and/or its players. Whether those ideas make the whole game or a single Warframe more accessible and fun, if it would help someone at all without taking from others, we should all be willing to hear it out.

[Luigispikachu]

honestly sirkeks, if you weren't here with your perspective this whole discussion would feel much more helpless.

[SirKeksalot]

7 minutes ago, Luigispikachu said:

honestly sirkeks, if you weren't here with your perspective this whole discussion would feel much more helpless.

I don't know how much I'm really helping with anything at all, but all I wanna do is try to be a voice of reason and advocate for people who are understandably making a very small ask. I chimed in initially because I was afraid of Jade's design being remembered as a mistake, and after another user opened up, I was inspired to tell my own story while also saying that, yeah, you can like Jade's design and should get to use it, but this thing I love doesn't have to come at the cost of another player's appreciation for the frame. I will be happy if you can all get to a point where you get even half the joy I get from her, even if it takes a new feature to make that happen. Feelings matter, and I'm sick of people acting like they don't just because you can't reach out and touch them. It's a big part of what's wrong with the world.

[_Anise_]

3 hours ago, SirKeksalot said:

you're underestimating what a miscarriage does to someone

I understand your viewpoint, and I really do sympathize with individuals who have gone through the loss of a child. given the sensitive themes the story, displaying a warning, I have yet to see anyone start a thread talking about how the story made them feel uncomfortable given that it directly plays with themes of a miscarriage, why do you suppose that is?

the story actually seems well received most the feedback seems focused on the frame design.

In my view, it feels improbable that an individual who has faced traumatic pregnancy-related experiences would overlook the disclaimer, participate in a quest involving such themes, and then suddenly object upon encountering the warframe?

If they wanted to skip the quest and buy her you can see her belly in the preview but a warning would be welcome here too

Edited June 28 by _Anise_

[SirKeksalot]

6 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I understand your viewpoint, and I really do sympathize with individuals who have gone through the loss of a child. given the sensitive themes the story, displaying a warning, I have yet to see anyone start a thread talking about how the story made them feel uncomfortable given that it directly plays with themes of a miscarriage, it's mostly people dropping feedback about how she looks, why do you suppose that is?

In my view, it feels improbable that an individual who has faced traumatic pregnancy-related experiences would overlook the disclaimer, participate in a quest involving such themes, and then suddenly object upon encountering the warframe? if they wanted to skip that and buy her you can see her belly in the preview

The quest comes with a content warning. The Warframe does not. You can, as OP has, get Jade with plat before doing the quest and ever learning what the story's about. This is the problem that led to the creation of this thread. And her belly is actually inconspicuous in the preview, it's deliberately hidden under her wings and it's understandably easy to miss.

[_Anise_]

1 minute ago, SirKeksalot said:

The quest comes with a content warning. The Warframe does not. You can, as OP has, get Jade with plat before doing the quest and ever learning what the story's about. This is the problem that led to the creation of this thread. And her belly is actually inconspicuous in the preview, it's deliberately hidden under her wings and it's understandably easy to miss

then this basically equates the issue to, there needs to be a content warning on buying the warframe for plat and OP can have a refund rather than we change how the game works to appease them?

(I almost included that as part of my original reply but cut it because I thought it was getting too long)

[SirKeksalot]

20 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

then this basically equates the issue to, there needs to be a content warning on buying the warframe for plat and OP can have a refund rather than we change how the game works to appease them?

(I almost included that as part of my original reply but cut it because I thought it was getting too long)

That depends on whether these people asking for a toggle believe that is enough, especially those such as OP who've had an experience like that. Hell, that's the cheapest and easiest way, just add a pop-up on your first purchase saying, "This Warframe alludes to themes of maternity and trauma, and will heavily spoil future story content when viewed." Or something to that effect. Might not be the most perfect or effective solution, but if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.

[_Anise_]

1 hour ago, SirKeksalot said:

Or--hear me out--artistic integrity has nothing to do with any of this, and leaving the original design in while adding an alt version where her belly's flattened out doesn't sacrifice the integrity or merit of the original.

If the initial design reflects the developer's vision and they alter it based on player feedback, wouldn't that essentially compromise their artistic integrity to cater to player demands? something like a gore filter might be in a game from day one to get passed by regional censorship which I agree is a compromise of integrity too but a necessary one. the game may otherwise not exist in certain regions or platforms otherwise.

1 hour ago, SirKeksalot said:

Not a great solution for people who enjoy her playstyle but not her design. And you can extrude that logic to any criticism. Don't like another design? A mechanic? A story beat? Just leave! Except...criticism, when well-intentioned, is meant to be useful. It should be aimed at making something better or more accessible. I should be able to critique things that I don't think are good design decisions, or suggest things I think would be good for the game and/or its players. Whether those ideas make the whole game or a single Warframe more accessible and fun, if it would help someone at all without taking from others, we should all be willing to hear it out.

There are several frames that I either find unappealing in terms of their appearance or mechanics, so I simply choose not to play them. I keep them for collection purposes. In this situation, I believe it's similar; she is still new and attractive, and everyone wants to have her, even if they don't truly connect with her, I feel this is where a lot of the feedback is coming from.

I tried to make an analogy with Hildryn but it was dismissed by different people as false equivalents, whataboutisms or just a disingenuous argument, but you see reasonable so maybe I will ask for your take, some women could have trauma related to the men/masculine form, they may be uncomfortable with how Hildryn looks, should it be addressed by adding toggle that turns off her muscle and makes her petite? (my answer is obviously no)

I don't think its a disingenuous argument and while not the exact same thing I do see parallels between the two examples, what do you think?

1 hour ago, Luigispikachu said:

honestly sirkeks, if you weren't here with your perspective this whole discussion would feel much more helpless.

It's comforting to have someone who appears understanding and supportive, even if we may not see eye to eye. I don't want you to feel alone in your perspective. I've experienced similar sentiments when others accused me of being insincere.

[SirKeksalot]

20 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

If the initial design reflects the developer's vision and they alter it based on player feedback, wouldn't that essentially compromise their artistic integrity to cater to player demands? something like a gore filter might be in a game from day one to get passed by regional censorship which I agree is a compromise of integrity too but a necessary one. the game may otherwise not exist in certain regions or platforms otherwise.

Every balance or design change is, if you think about it, a compromise to artistic integrity. In fact, as an aspiring writer, I can speak to this--I've gotten feedback on what I've written that calls for change, things like shifting around the protagonist's role in events, and so forth. Is that compromising my artistic integrity to cater to this feedback and amending my art based on what other people would prefer to read? I don't see it that way at all. I see it as other people telling me what they think and feel about what I made and giving well-intentioned suggestions as to how I can make it resonate better with as many people as I can. And here, we're asking for a switch, really. You can go back to the original Jade at your discretion by the use of that switch, and the original art will remain intact--it'll just be optionally more palatable. The actual quest and story around Jade doesn't have to change at all, only the one we get, if we so choose.

20 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

There are several frames that I either find unappealing in terms of their appearance or mechanics, so I simply choose not to play them. I keep them for collection purposes. In this situation, I believe it's similar; she is still new and attractive, and everyone wants to have her, even if they don't truly connect with her, I feel this is where a lot of the feedback is coming from.

I tried to make an analogy with Hildryn but it was dismissed by different people as false equivalents, whataboutisms or just a disingenuous argument, but you see reasonable so maybe I will ask for your take, some women could have trauma related to the men/masculine form, they may be uncomfortable with how Hildryn looks, should it be addressed by adding toggle that turns off her muscle and makes her petite? (my answer is obviously no)

I don't think its a disingenuous argument and while not the exact same thing I do see parallels between the two examples, what do you think?

I don't know. I don't see people actually saying that, so I don't know who genuinely needs this accommodation. I think different body types should be celebrated--as is the case with pregnancy--so frames like Hildryn and Grendel are great from my perspective. And I would hope that maybe players with those body types feel seen for it, especially now that I understand how powerful that is. If someone has trauma that is triggered by any Warframe's design, we can't justify acting on it until we know that these people are affected. They're welcome to speak up, and then we may have this conversation if they do.

I understand what your point is, and I don't think you're being disingenuous by making it, especially after seeing what I consider truly dishonest talking points on here. But we can't solve problems we don't even know people have. As I've said before, how could anyone know to accommodate my insecurities with Jade before she was on the table? That convo would have been fruitless until I spoke up, and it never occurred to me to do so.

Edited June 28 by SirKeksalot

[(XBOX)Omega399]

10 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Steve tried asking if a toggle was needed. unfortunately secrecy demanded that the question go unanswered.

Just wanted to say this is the second time you've done this with your wording, and its troubling. (First was with the artwork when you insinuated the only non-pregnant image of Jade was the only image anyone drew of Jade, ignoring the other three where she was pregnant entirely, and it being one of the only ones the devs acknowledged when knowing full well that there's a Spoiler embargo.)

Steve wasn't the one asking, someone in the chat was the one asking; he was just the one reading it out loud like he did last year, which nearly had them spill the beans on Jade existing.

10 hours ago, DudeleeG2 said:

And to whoever said that we should have played the quest before buying the warframe - no-one has to do anything in any particular order.

That was sort of me? Though I was only saying it in the context of having her not be available to purchase with plat for the duration of the Spoiler Embargo, since once that's lifted (assumed to be around tennocon), they could have been a lot more blatant with her design in the shop previews, and there wouldn't be anybody feeling mislead by the marketing because there would have been clear knowledge of what they were getting beforehand 

Edited June 28 by (XBOX)Omega399
Typo

[SirKeksalot]

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

That was sort of me? Though I was only saying it in the context of having her not be available to purchase with plat for the duration of the Spoiler Embargo, since once that's lifted (assumed to be around tennocon), they could have been a lot more blatant with her design in the shop previews, and there wouldn't be anybody feeling mislead by the marketing because there would have been clear knowledge of what they were getting beforehand 

Bit of a clunky solution. Then that keeps people who want Jade and are ok with her from getting her at their leisure, and that would have kept me from getting her when I did, which was a w I sorely needed.

Edited June 28 by SirKeksalot

[(XBOX)Omega399]

2 minutes ago, SirKeksalot said:

Bit of a clunky solution. Then that keeps people who want Jade and are ok with her from getting her at their leisure, and that would have kept me from getting her when I did, which was a w i sorely needed.

Clunky how?

She'd still be available in a months time, and it would prevent people such as OP from having bought her without knowing what she actually looked like. People like you or I who bought and didn't care would just have had to wait till she'd be going up for sale alongside ember heirloom at tennocon, which is hardly that big of an issue.

[SirKeksalot]

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

Clunky how?

She'd still be available in a months time, and it would prevent people such as OP from having bought her without knowing what she actually looked like. People like you or I who bought and didn't care would just have had to wait till she'd be going up for sale alongside ember heirloom at tennocon, which is hardly that big of an issue.

We'd have to wait a month to buy just so the spoiler embargo could lift. That's awkward and forces you to sit through the grind to get her, which was pretty rough for me facing down the necramech grind to do New War first. I got her as a very generous gift from someone who saw my post and wanted to help, that's the only reason why I have her now, and that gesture has actually jumpstarted the healing process for me. This couldn't have happened if DE did your idea. And people who didn't know why the purchase restriction exists would just be confused and annoyed if they wanted to buy her.

Anyway, it's too late for all that. She's out and everyone's talking about her. We would do better to concoct solutions for DE to pursue going forward.

Edited June 28 by SirKeksalot

[DudeleeG2]

A warning message on purchasing the frame isn’t really necessary. Simply actually showing her belly honestly at some point before youve actually bought her would be enough.

[Stormandreas]

22 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

this made me realize something,  there isn't a past version of the jade warframe that wasn't pregnant, so also from a lore standpoint it does not make sense giving her a flat form? though I will acknowledge I don't really know how lore friendly skin are.

Skins often aren't lore friendly. Case and point, Excalibur Proto Skin and Nyx Nemisis Skin.

DE confirmed that Dark Sector and WF are NOT in the same universe, and the those skins, especially the Excal Proto skin, is a model port from Dark Sector to pay homage to WFs origins.

Tennogen skins
Deluxe skins
Heirloom skins

Generally, they aren't lore friendly anyway, so the lore doesn't really stop skins.

[Circle_of_Psi]

On 2024-06-28 at 4:35 PM, Luigispikachu said:

it should be, but then peoples could get around that by arguing that they aren't gaslighting, because it would be hard to prove. or I think it might be I could be wrong

Indeed, all you can do is hope for the best and report em

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

On 2024-06-29 at 1:05 AM, _Anise_ said:

To date, I have not come across a compelling argument that doesn't essentially reduce to straightforward statements such as "I dislike her appearance" or "I don't feel comfortable playing her." The reality is that individuals are not obligated to play as her; it's as simple as that.

Dislike and discomfort associated to the titular matter are only the symptoms of the issue at hand. 

When you start asking WHY do players dislike her appearance and WHY do players find it uncomfortable playing as her, you will see the compelling reasons why DE should at the very lease acknowledge the situation. 

[_Anise_]

I recently enjoyed watching a heartwarming Warframe stream featuring a host who exuded kindness, courtesy, and warmth. The host encouraged viewers to share their fashion creations, with some showcasing stunning jade-themed designs. It was a truly delightful experience to witness her appreciation for players' "cute" Jade fashions.

I understand the reasons behind their silence on the matter. It seems that most people fall into two main groups: those who are either indifferent or genuinely fond of Jade. For Digital Extremes to address the concerns of the discontent minority, they would need to either acknowledge fault or stand firm in their decision. Both options risk validating the vocal dissatisfied minority, potentially sparking further resistance against a creative choice that falls within their artistic freedom. Moreover, it could establish a precedent for players influencing future design decisions.

[WanderingJoe]

The precedent was set beforehand with Styanax's tassles on his deluxe skin, which was certainly less discussed than Jade's design has.

[_Anise_]

Were the tassels altered in response to player outrage, or were they introduced as a toggle feature?

Regardless, I believe that equating nipple tassels, which are a cosmetic item, to a part of someone's body is not a fair comparison.

[TheCursedUltima]

Agreed, Jade's pregnancy is a significant characteristic of Jade, while the tassels of Styanax are not.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

they would need to either acknowledge faut

Since when did they EVER do this?