Tokophobia issue

[YOURteacher100]

On 2024-06-28 at 5:34 PM, Vaalyah said:

Good morning.

I suffer of severe Tokophobia. And even if I managed to do the quest with a lot of help, I would never, for the love of Heaven, be able to play a Warframe with visible PREGNANCY signs. And don't let me start with the animation! I'm feeling sick even while typing this.

Thanks to my friends for telling me in advance and saving me from the dreadful experience.

Please, please, please, give us an option to remove that part in the 3d model, as we can remove Kullervo's knives in the APPEARANCE section.

Have mercy of us, tokophobic players. Thanks.

No

[WanderingJoe]

46 minutes ago, Vaalyah said:

Guys, please, I didn't mean to start any battle, here.

You didn't. You just stepped into the trenches that were already here.

Just so happens that the forums have been burning for nearly a week now, as long or almost as long as Jade was released. Its an excellent display of the problem, not including the players that both never come to the forums or never post on them. Its an issue that has maintained its spot covering the top five recently discussed threads (and almost all five of those of those threads too) under this section of the forums nearly the entire time. 

On one side, people asking for a tool to deal with their own issues in the way they prefer. an option. the choice to decide. On the other side, you have the people who think the discussion isn't worth having in the first place. The people arguing to make sure DE employees don't have to spend more manhours on her than necessary. and other reasons but Im trying to keep things reasonable and have the topic at hand discussed in good faith.

Thank you for your feedback Vaalyah. Every opinion counts for either side of the discussion. If you find the forums distressing though, feel free to write your posts as if you were directly speaking to DE. You don't need to convince other people why you're uncomfortable, you've done enough by simply listing one more reason why we'd like for DE to give us an Auxiliary attachment for Jade. Ultimately DE will decide whichever way they're going to so making our case is about all we can do, and you've done fine on that end.

Edited Saturday at 09:24 PM by WanderingJoe

[SirKeksalot]

23 hours ago, R3D_T1G3R1 said:

If Kullervo can hide his knives for cosmetic reasons entirely, jade should at the very least come with an alternative non-pregnant skin.

Wait, there's already a Warframe with a cosmetic component that you have the option to hide? AND WE'VE BEEN ACTING THIS ENTIRE TIME LIKE THERE'S NO PRECEDENT FOR THAT???

I know any number of alt models for a frame are different from hiding a weapon, but this is the same kinda principle at play here. OP is yet another person who isn't comfortable with this model and brings a new reason to the table as to why. I mean, hell, I posted a screenshot of my Jade fashion on Discord and it triggered someone's phobia, so I get it. It seems cut and dry to me.

To the matter of "what about this or that phobia," this argument's been had before and my response is the same: unless someone's already come forth saying that Warframe in particular is triggering their phobia(s) and there's a feature they want to be able to turn off, we can't and shouldn't talk about those hypothetical examples. Here and now, someone has unquestionably come forth and said "this frame triggers me," so we ought to talk about how DE can best handle the response that some players have had to this Warframe.

[WanderingJoe]

Oh, were you not aware of Kulervo's toggle? 

[SirKeksalot]

1 minute ago, WanderingJoe said:

Oh, were you not aware of Kulervo's toggle? 

I WAS OUT FOR SIX YEARS I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THIS FRAME EXISTED AND NOW I SEE PEOPLE ACTING LIKE AN OPTIONAL COSMETIC TOGGLE FOR A FRAME IS THE WORST THING SINCE UNSLICED BREAD, and all i can assume in this case is that THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!! BUT IT HAS???? CHRIST IN A BAG WHY IS IT THE END OF THE WORLD IF PEOPLE WANT THAT FOR ANOTHER FRAME????????

[3xt1inct]

5 minutes ago, SirKeksalot said:

Wait, there's already a Warframe with a cosmetic component that you have the option to hide? AND WE'VE BEEN ACTING THIS ENTIRE TIME LIKE THERE'S NO PRECEDENT FOR THAT???

there is a difference, Kullervo's knives are not part of his 3D model and are a separate entity, Jade's belly is part of her 3D model, even though indeed they should have made the belly a different entity and have the option of belly or no belly. It's devs choice

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, SirKeksalot said:

I WAS OUT FOR SIX YEARS I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THIS FRAME EXISTED AND NOW I SEE PEOPLE ACTING LIKE AN OPTIONAL COSMETIC TOGGLE FOR A FRAME IS THE WORST THING SINCE UNSLICED BREAD, and all i can assume in this case is that THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!! BUT IT HAS???? CHRIST IN A BAG WHY IS IT THE END OF THE WORLD IF PEOPLE WANT THAT FOR ANOTHER FRAME????????

AGAIN I was playing devil's advocate, i have mentioned that enough now

[SirKeksalot]

1 minute ago, 3xt1inct said:

there is a difference, Kullervo's knives are not part of his 3D model and are a separate entity, Jade's belly is part of her 3D model, even though indeed they should have made the belly a different entity and have the option of belly or no belly. It's devs choice

I recognize this, and I said it before that I know they're not the same. Again, it's more that we have precedent for a frame having this kind of toggle, and therefore it's not too odd to think we may have use for another.

2 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

AGAIN I was playing devil's advocate, i have mentioned that enough now

I was not necessarily referring to you when I said that. There are a weird number of people vehemently against a toggle that doesn't affect them, and they've been butting heads with the people who want that feature for several days, now.

[3xt1inct]

6 minutes ago, SirKeksalot said:

I recognize this, and I said it before that I know they're not the same. Again, it's more that we have precedent for a frame having this kind of toggle, and therefore it's not too odd to think we may have use for another.

precedent means in similar situation, in no way is having a toggle for a separate entity the same as having a toggle for something that is currently on a 3D model with single entity, so not similar from a technical standpoint.

[WanderingJoe]

11 minutes ago, 3xt1inct said:

Jade's belly is part of her 3D model, even though indeed they should have made the belly a different entity and have the option of belly or no belly. It's devs choice

I mean, that's on them then. They made the Styanax Tonatiuh "embelishments" optional when those could have been baked in. Dev's choice also means they're the ones who can decide if they want to change it.

[TheCursedUltima]

What if they made an optional non-pregnant model of base Jade (akin to if she had another skin) rather than a toggle / aux?

It'd keep the logistics side of things for making Tennogen and Deluxe in the future the same as other frames - it might make some people feel left out from other designs, but at least they'd have an option rather than none, and there wouldn't be additional work required for future skins since there'd only need to be a single model as usual. It'd be an option that would satisfy to a degree those with issues with the least amount of work done for the future.

This could also be tied to a client-side option that would display all Jade's in your lobby with the non-pregnant model regardless of their chosen skin, which would allow for those with Tokophobia to not have to worry about encountering a visibly pregnant Jade in a lobby.

And as a side, adding the option to skip the cutscenes in the Jade Shadows mission (including the rhythm game) with a text description as to what occurred in the scene, would be a good idea - that way the OP would hopefully be able to play through the mission without having to avert their attention for a fair amount of the cinematics.

Edited Saturday at 11:06 PM by TheCursedUltima
Reworded first sentence for clarification, and changed a comma to a full stop.

[WanderingJoe]

All nice ideas though they all do carry the "turn it off" mentality. Toggle at this point is just the word we use. We don't really care about the mechanics of how they do it, we're just requesting they choose one to implement. I say auxiliary as I think it'd be the best way to keep anyone from missing out on fashion frame but I'd accept any of these ideas. I think the "global" switch idea would be harder than an auxiliary option since i t would entail both the auxiliary method and then require further implimentation.

[TheCursedUltima]

The client-side idea was based on the foundation of working in tandem with either an aux or set model for which a specific state could be displayed based off of the chosen option, for those who can’t handle seeing others playing them - like in a Relay or Dojo as you’re likely to see a Jade stationary and thus the pregnancy potentially visible, which is not great for those with Tokophobia such as the OP.

But yeah, it does require other factors which could make it harder to implement as you’d said.

[VENDOMINUS]

52 minutes ago, SirKeksalot said:

I recognize this, and I said it before that I know they're not the same. Again, it's more that we have precedent for a frame having this kind of toggle, and therefore it's not too odd to think we may have use for another.

Well, it's not really a precedent. Styanax deluxe skin had tassels, that were made removeable via the axillary slot too(they weren't originally). It didn't take DE too long to make it happen either.

http://prntscr.com/E5Rmbu8QN-JD

[sorryh]

2 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

Your writing style comes over as very aggressive, I do not know if this was intended or not but before trying to word your point, take a breather and refrain from using different styles to highlight words and trying to explain terms everyone is familiar with like the meaning of the word "request" (i know you will counter with "you put a link to the pegi site and explaination of forum"

I am way far and beyond confused by you telling I was aggressive 😂
For that I owe you an apology for this misunderstanding and choice of expressing myself. I went back to read what I said and I struggle to see how I gave off that impression if anything I was calm and expecting like a healthy discussion while writing that. So I had no ill feelings or some sort of mocking stuff.
I speak multiple languages so have language barriers to work on further it seems. so I Am sorry for this apparent misunderstanding of my intentions 🙌
And for the love of god I am not being "ironic" or "sarcastic". Just serious cultural barriers so bare with me here. Thank you for assuming it's not intentional because I can confirm it was not. 😅

I use emoji's to sound less serious or rude. that I am looking at it, it could translate to someone as being ironic? I don't know.

 

 

2 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

I argue consistency, if you choose to validate one fear, you should accept every fear is as valid as others and find a solution for all other fears as well. What i do not want is Developers walking on eggshells while making a story, because it might trigger some phobias, they should offer alternatives for people, who still struggle with phobias or are not yet in the position where they want to face the phobia.

I do believe in that though. that all fears should be heard.
It's up to the developers to chose what they can do to help within their limit and time. And of course as long it's logical and makes sense.
If something pops out that seems problematic and needs an option somewhere in the settings, like why not?

I am not saying here that the DEVs should hear every single person and do something about it. I just think people should feel comfortable to express it.
In the end the choice is strictly. If someone feels entitled more about the fact the devs didn't do about his fear then that is more of his personal problem.
The issue alings within the limit of expression.

I mean wouldn't you find it wonderful if you see a lot of options in the settings for things you have no fear of?
Like I would consider that lovely that this game developers care about their community.
again only when they can and want to. because devs shouldn't be walking on eggshells as you expressed your concerns about it that they now have to move and help every odd and strange phobia to exist.

 

 

2 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

Validating some fears by acting on them when popping up, while hearing but neglecting others, will make people feel betrayed and invalidated as a person by the developer, which counters the inclusion DE preaches. Hearing all phobias, while only acting on a few of them will cause rifts in your community.

again you can't please everyone. it's simply impossible.
But excuse me if I misunderstood you here but it sounds to me like "they shouldn't listen to you because if they do then they have to listen to others" 
and again i am not trying to be aggressive or have any ill intentions here just strictly for a healthy discussion.

I believe people should express but should never be feeling entitled everyone demands must be met. Then whoever is requesting his phobia to be heard and then spams and insult devs later for not hearing him out at that point shouldn't be heard at all. that's harassment and borderline terrible behavior that should not be tolerated. 
Just express your phobia maybe a month, a year, couple of years it can be added or not. nobody should expect anything.
But maybe in my own little fantasy world that how i imagine it to work 😅
what can be added is strictly up to the developers in my opinion of course. 

 

 

2 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

again make your text more personal aggression towards me, caused by an emotion of yours, than a valid argument.

😅 I am once again super confused about this as well.
I was just explaining how the narrative of "it's not this actually because it's this" seemed odd so I used examples and such to explain from my point of view how it might sound to others while it makes sense to you. Trust me I had no personal aggression against you. I was really calm if anything I was laughing at my own example because it reminded me of personal situations I found hilarious with close friends. I apologize.

 

 

3 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

You dictating how i should live/cope/deal/communicate with my fear, is crossing a line, you do not have any moral authority over me or anyone else. I choose what, how and with what level of comfort I want to live, as others do. I will ask for help if i need it, i do not want to have to look at a placeholder because i could not face my fear, that is how i think about it and that is how i live and choose to live everyday. Handling fear, communicating it and asking for help with it is a personal matter and not something anyone can be "right or wrong" about. it is a choice, not a question of morality, ethics or even representation of others. Things you don't respect by telling me what I should do, claiming moral authority here is just showing how you don't think anyone who has an opinion differing from yours deserves any respect.

"not cope, learn to play with it" ~you, this is you stating the point you are arguing against, honestly what do you mean here? should OP not cope and play with fear?
will again chart this mistake up to the medication.

._.
Well, I suppose I owe you whole explanation behind my mind set over there because this seems like a whole misunderstanding.
Didn't come across my mind to dictate on you anything actually.

This whole time reading your text I had the impression in my mind that you also had fears or felt that you are not "allowed" to voice your problems but you had to face them in place of getting an option to ease your experience.

The impression i got like "wait? why this person had to adapt and put it on himself and effort in order to enjoy the game, he should have the right to choice his concern about his fears" 
so I took it in a sense there is some sort of situation where people are feeling oppressed of "I have this issue but I can't voice my concern" 
why? is the community that hostile? will people attack you? who are those people to get in the way of expressing your voice.
Because at this point in the discussion I had the impression of you that you were against people expressing their concerns for phobia in the sense of "if they listen to you they have to listen to others" and due to this mentality you also didn't voice yours. I am not meaning to across any line here.

Obviously this is not the case with you i am currently just explaining my thought process at that moment.
Like yes, you should be able express it, what stopped you? but it's far more personal.

I request you to pardon my approach due to cultural and languages barriers here because I am literally beyond shocked at the way you took what I said in a way I never expected in million years. And to make this perfectly clear no and I have no right to tell you how you should do anything nobody should be actually. just to make that clear. My fault here is I took for granted that I came across how it made sense at it sounded in my mind. 

Matter fact I was sympathetic in your regard about the subject on this and I was wondering why you aren't expressing yourself about your fear of needles, it should have a solution for that.
You also should have the right ask for an option. why cope and adapt when your experience could be better by a simple option for that as well! in this sense, but it's your choice to decide what you want to do. 
I personally know people that have deep fear of the same thing (thankfully they don't play the game), many are just like you out there. They should add a feature about it (speaking in general). Seriously I am not thinking i had moral authority or something.

In this whole section I will have to say, I am simply at disbelief i indirectly come across disrespectful. My apology.

and to answer you "shouldn't OP not cope and live with fear?" 
I say it's context!
the OP stated clearly they just want an option they could use. They tried coping but it's too in the face. and again you gave me the impression of "if they had to listen to you they had to listen to others" 
I was more leaning towards "everyone should have the right to express their concerns and fears they wish an option in the game for dealing with them than be shot down by others just because they speak"
I really hope you understand my point of view here. This is just a massive misunderstanding.

and no it was not the medication, it only caused me to say same word twice and massive punctuation and spelling errors. 😂


 

 

3 hours ago, 3xt1inct said:

Again No, I'm not overthinking, I'm throwing out hypotheses and their potential impact, aka I'm speculating. Yes ofcourse cosmetic checks can work, but already back in 2019 DE had a devstream about how difficult it is tying new content into the game due to it being spaghetticoded, this system would require manier years of work. On top of that lets say bob has a good fashion on a warframe or kavat that they would like to show off, but then dave has no cats toggled, bob will be mad his cat is now whatever DE turned it into. 

Devs are hearing ppl out about things they can change, that benefit community in general. What you need to understand is that DE is a Canadian company, in North America pregnancy, abortion and children are very significant friction points these days (even though they should not be, your body your choice, then again no reason to turn this page political). This will have impact in the NA catholic community, as they will potentially take it as a pro abortion stance from DE, or it will potentially resonate with pregnant women  (yes some play warframe) that their bodies are not desired, which will end in an issue with body positivity. In NA things like this get taken political very quickly and i think they are avoiding that bad publicity.

A potential reason they might have added a pregnant warframe, to make one of their currently pregnant employee, or pregnant persons in general feel seen and validated, if skinned without belly, they would take this as an offense equal to the fear of OP, being unjustifiably thrown in her (assumption, tell me if I'm wrong, pls) face, the logic and reasoning is which group will be hurt more and which of those groups guarantees more income.

I know how coding works, it is part of my job, i think you underestimate how complex coding functions like this is.

I have no right to speak on any of these matters and not educated enough to discuss them.
I am also fully ignorant when it comes to coding so I will take your word for it. My understanding of it is "only devs know how" but really I could easily be wrong and I will admit my limited (none existent knowledge).

 

[S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E]

With all the new faces appearing in this thread in support of some form of toggle or options regarding Jade, I am leaving the link to the petition here!

A signature would be amazing 👏 

https://chng.it/2RtqfJztkv

 

Let's keep this up and show DE!

Edited Saturday at 11:53 PM by S.O.U.N.D.W.A.V.E

[WanderingJoe]

1 hour ago, WanderingJoe said:

They made the Styanax Tonatiuh "embelishments" optional

 

21 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

Styanax deluxe skin had tassels, that were made removeable via the axillary slot too(they weren't originally). It didn't take DE too long to make it happen either.

Yup. exactly.

[Nekomian]

3 hours ago, Vaalyah said:

Since the fix is super easy (selecting the polygons in that area and hiding them), can we have the option to remove them in the appearance menu?"

To preface this, this isn't meant to be a "for" or "against" statement - just wanted to point out that it's not as simple as that, they would need to alter the mesh of the model (to make the form flatter) and change / swap the texture work. I can't imagine it would take too long (they could just dynamically alter / morph the mesh on toggle and swap the texture, though they'd have to rework some animation sets and possibly adjust attachment snapping to accommodate it), but a 3D modeler would be able to give more insight into specifics.

[WanderingJoe]

Well, this is where it would be nice to get some response from DE. It may be a bit of an ask but no one has told us anything about our worries. I personally am going to wait and see if it takes them a dev stream or two after Tennocon. Until then, this is neither a yes or no situation. Its up to them to decide if the trouble of changing things is worth it, so why not make our opinion known until then?

[SaintAlfi]

1 hour ago, WanderingJoe said:

Well, this is where it would be nice to get some response from DE. It may be a bit of an ask but no one has told us anything about our worries. I personally am going to wait and see if it takes them a dev stream or two after Tennocon. Until then, this is neither a yes or no situation. Its up to them to decide if the trouble of changing things is worth it, so why not make our opinion known until then?

I think its all but a guarantee they do address it at some point (my guess is after Tennocon). The spoiler embargo ends then, and I assume that's the biggest reason for no communication, no "we've heard your feedback". I'd be somewhat surprised if they address it in a devshort beforehand (or even at Tennocon). 

Question is, how much do they address it? Dante's breaking of the kneecaps (and the backhand to Nezha to a lesser extent) caused a massive backlash that was pretty much addressed within a week. But that was only a gross over-nerf. This is a little different, to say the least. How do they even begin to address something like this?    

[WanderingJoe]

Then we reage like Helldivers didd with Sony-! No, sorry, perhaps a poor joke then. If DE doesn't reply (I'm sure we'd need to adress this at somepoint) then that may as will be our answer then. I would like to advocate that we handle it with civility... but then again I really, really, really, really want to see if they'll give us a toggle. 

Part of requesting something in good faith is being willing to accept an answer in good faith as well, even if its not the one you want.

 

....I want the answer to be the one I want though.

Edited Sunday at 03:07 AM by WanderingJoe

[Circle_of_Psi]

Huh, I didn't know what Tokophobia  was until today

 

Every day is a school day!

 

But onto topic: Hope you can sort this OP, wish you luck o7

[BlackKisa]

Thank you for the thread.

I also happen to have pregnancy phobia. Bought the 'frame as soon as she was released, had no idea about this stuff, until I saw her idle animation. Now, at best, I get very uneasy when thinking about her. Have to try to convince myself it's not actually there, that it is just power core or eye, but the feeling doesn't go away. It's an almost visceral reaction, it doesn't necessarily make sense, so no amount of rationalizing or saying "It just looks like pregnancy" is going to stop causing those feelings. If I could its-just-a-game those feelings away, I would.

That's why I would also love if DE gave us an option to remove that part of Jade's look. Please, DE.

Edited Sunday at 10:49 AM by BlackKisa

[SneakyErvin]

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim. Since the phobia is not one that takes shape like something such as arachnophobia.

You are talking about a phobia that is rooted in the fear of going through a specific potentially health harming state on a personal level, not a phobia regarding pregnant women. So this is a phobia on the same levels like fear of flying or fear of large bodies of water. Which in reality has no impact when those things are experienced at a virtual levels (except for an extreme fraction of those having the phobias), unlike fear of spiders or other creatures, where the visual aspects leads to thoughts of dread, since they arent things you need to engage with willingly in order for them to exsist.

Since with the fear of creatures, when you see them on the screen the mind starts to think not only of that, but that they might crawl under your desk, or up the chair you currently sit in and you get these odd feelings across your body. With fear of flying, water and pregnancy etc. it is a phobia that occurs when you are in that moment or go into it IRL. You are for instance not afraid of the airplane itself for what it represents, or the body of water, you fear what happens if you enter that "state". And when experienced virtually, the fears arent there since the dangers are not there as a risk.

Hence why people can enjoy virtual flight simulators (games or advanced ones) very much even if they fear traveling with an airplane. Or like how someone like me, that would never freely go into larger bodies of water can enjoy sharkwing in this game without a problem, or even things like swiming/diving in Valheim or ArchAge, games where you can actually also drown.

So if you are actually basing this on how Jade looks, then it is some completely different phobia, since you are at that point fearing pregnant looking women in general no matter if they are pregnant or not. Much like how someone with arachnophobia fears Daddy Longlegs, a recluse and a tarantula near equally even though there is no sense in it.

[Vaalyah]

4 hours ago, BlackKisa said:

I also happen to have pregnancy phobia.

Sending you a huge hug!

 

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim

It is, because if you are playing "as her", it means you ARE in that state. 1) don't expect to be able to understand others' phobia 2) especially in this case if you don't have an uterus.

Again: guys, this thread is "Devs, this is a problem to some users, can we have a different 3D models to avoid it?". Not a "please, come here and do me a random online psychological evaluation".

Thanks.

[SirKeksalot]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Jade in her current visual state shouldnt even be an issue if you have the phobia you claim. Since the phobia is not one that takes shape like something such as arachnophobia.

"I have tokophobia and seeing a pregnant character triggers it because pregnancy and birth are inextricable."

"NUH UH"