Proposal to Change CC's Interaction With Overguard

[IcarusRTS]

CC That Affect Enemy Movement Speed

Make this kind of CC have reduced effectiveness vs Overguard. This will keep them in line with Cold's interaction with Overguard since Cold's status effect is a CC that affects enemy movement. Frames like Nova, Sevagoth etc. will benefit from this change. Any other CC that either indirectly debuff enemy movement (Vortex, Tornado, Rhino Stomp) should keep this mechanic as a feature whether at its current state or at reduced effectiveness (Rhino Stomp).

CC That Disables Enemies But Has No Secondary Effects

This particular CC basically has no secondary effects that either helps the frame to survive (Condemn) or has a debuff that allows the frame to kill Overguarded enemies faster (Sentient Stomp). As an example, Stasis could slow down Overguarded enemies when they are in the Rift albeit at a reduced duration compared to hard CC portion of the ability. You all may post your own ideas of what other hard CC with no or outdated Secondary Effects should do vs Overguard.

Grouping CC

Grouping CC should be allowed the group up Overguarded enemies without them disabling their enemies with their hard CC (Larva, Vortex, Airburst) so grouping CC with this proposal should act like Magus Anomaly (before its nerf vs Overguard) as Magus Anomaly before its nerf used to just pull enemies without disabling them.

Weapon Jamming/Disarming CC

Overguarded units should be affected by this type of CC, but they switch to melee combat instantly as long as they have Overguard on and they don't affected by any sort of brief hard CC said type of CC may impose.

Blinding/Sleep CC

Blinding CC should make Overguarded enemies fire and use their abilities in any direction, making them still dangerous even when they can't see you. Sleeping CC should briefly slow down Overguarded enemies.

Conclusion

These changes should allow CC to thrive while not completely trivializing the game and thus meeting the main goal of Overguard. Feel free to post your own takes on what you think should be with CC interactions with Overguard.

 

 

[insanitybit]

lol this is great, I wrote almost an identical post the other day but decided not to post it because I didn't think people would agree. Yes, 100%. Maybe the details of "these should cause X specific effect" are debatable, but *something* should happen. For example, "Weapon Jamming/ Disarming CC" could instead just give 50% ammo efficiency, but I think the point is that they should do *something*.

[Sephylon086918]

Wouldn't be opposed to stasis slowing overguard. Some1 here once suggested having it proc cold status. Do however note; satais has a 2nary effect that works on overguard:  freezes enemy bullets

Edited July 3 by Sephylon086918

[IcarusRTS]

1 hour ago, Sephylon086918 said:

Wouldn't be opposed to stasis slowing overguard. Some1 here once suggested having it proc cold status. Do however note; satais has a 2nary effect that works on overguard:  freezes enemy bullets

Unfortunately the said secondary effect has limit to how many enemy bullets it can freeze, so the moment there are too many Overguarded enemies with high fire rate weapons the Stasis will prematurely end after reaching said limit. Which is why I don't consider it as a true secondary effect vs Overguard as Overguarded enemies can potentially prematurely end Stasis and thus free the enemies that either had their Overguard stripped or didn't possess it to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, not every frame needs to be perfect for all scenarios and Stasis' secondary effect is servicable when Overguarded enemy amount is low. But when Limbo used to be one of a few frames that can play endurance and survive not through ability DPS nor EHP/Tanking abilities but through hard CC on top of Limbo gaining access to Shield Gating which was literally made to make squishy frames survive longer, it feels odd that Limbo and similar frames has stagnated overtime vs Overguard where as frames like Frost who recently got adjusted flourishes.

[Sephylon086918]

Ah so more akin to breach surge, silence and well of life then. Fair enough

Edited July 3 by Sephylon086918

[IcarusRTS]

24 minutes ago, Sephylon086918 said:

Ah so more akin to breach surge, silence and well of life then. Fair enough

Pretty much. In Frost's case, Frost can spread cold procs with much MUCH higher freeze duration, has access to Overguard where as all Limbo can do by himself is shield gate and hope his weapons are powerful enough to remove the Overguarded enemies from equation. For Limbo's case either Stasis has to slow down Overguarded enemies or Stasis has to apply "disarm" effect to Overguarded enemies specifically, forcing them to switch to melee weapons instantly the moment Stasis is active. The latter option would be also fine given its not hard CC since Overguarded enemy actions wouldn't be interrupted but at least makes Overguarded enemies easier to deal with.

Also I will just point this out again for others, feel free to share what you think CC should do vs Overguard. This could be either a general idea or a idea for specific CC ability of a Warframe etc.

Edited July 4 by IcarusRTS

[Sephylon086918]

23 minutes ago, IcarusRTS said:

Pretty much. In Frost's case, Frost can spread cold procs with much MUCH higher freeze duration, has access to Overguard where as all Limbo can do by himself is shield gate and hope his weapons are powerful enough to remove the Overguarded enemies from equation. For Limbo's case either Stasis has to slow down Overguarded enemies or Stasis has to apply "disarm" effect to Overguarded enemies specifically, forcing them to switch to melee weapons instantly the moment Stasis is active. The latter option would be also fine given its not hard CC since Overguarded enemy actions wouldn't be interrupted but at least makes Overguarded enemies easier to deal with.

Also I will just point this out again for others, feel free to share what you think CC should do vs Overguard. This could be either a general idea or a idea for specific CC ability of a Warframe etc.

I use mine with the secondary fortifier. Thing works wonders melting overguard (especially on a magnetic secondary) while giving you overguard. So much so that eximus stronghold is a boon for me.

Also usually sit on a 2~3k serration bonus on my limbo so weapon damage isn't a problem on him, except when using the stug.

I'm going to have to disagree with the disarm thing. Assuming the eximus and limbo are both rifted, melee eximuses are far more of a threat than ranged ones ever could be in the current sittuation as they have nothing to freeze. Granted the limbo can always just leave the rift assuming a bubble isn't up since eximus units can't hit accross the rift.

Another thing I'd like is better indication that stasis ended prematurely. My build uses 3 tau yellowa for cast so I can quickly recast stasis before anything happens if I notice it fast enough. That or I just refresh stasis since you can recast it to turn it off.

Edited July 4 by Sephylon086918

[IcarusRTS]

16 minutes ago, Sephylon086918 said:

I use mine with the secondary fortifier. Thing works wonders melting overguard (especially on a magnetic secondary) while giving you overguard. So much so that eximus stronghold is a boon for me.

Yeah but that requires you to either sacrifice Secondary Merciless, Cascadia Flare etc just to get Overguard or you have to give up Secondary Encumber on a primer secondary just to get Overguard for more gating. On top of this, Magnetic even with the buffs is REALLY hard to slot in on a Secondary given the usual meta is Heat + Viral or Slash + Viral for them. Primers ideal elements didn't exactly change either, Electricity and Viral are commonly wanted elements on them. As for why Electricity is mentioned, Electricity stuns enemies and thus making it easier to aim against them, this effectiveness is improved with combination of Cold (Epitaph's forced Cold procs as an example).

36 minutes ago, Sephylon086918 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with the disarm thing. Assuming the eximus and limbo are both rifted, melee eximuses are far more of a threat than ranged ones ever could be in the current sittuation as they have nothing to freeze. Granted the limbo can always just leave the rift assuming a bubble isn't up since eximus units can't hit accross the rift.

Yeah but if this change were to say happen, you can use a primer with cold procs to slow down Melee Eximuses. The changes I proposed further debuff them while still retaining the idea of CC shouldn't disable Overguarded enemies.

38 minutes ago, Sephylon086918 said:

Another thing I'd like is better indication that stasis ended prematurely. My build uses 3 tau yellowa for cast so I can quickly recast stasis before anything happens if I notice it fast enough. That or I just refresh stasis since you can recast it to turn it off.

There is technically a couple of indications for Stasis ending prematurely. First being enemies no longer being frozen and second being Limbo finally receiving enemy fire.

[Sephylon086918]

Would be a per person basis I think. Would said person value the extra damage from merciless more or the extra survivability, of quickly removing overguard on an eximus to cc them+gaining overguard. Personally my secondary was a buffing tool anyways (grimoire modded for mag, multi and fire rate), so getting overguard ontop was just perfect. Even on my nekros who uses his secondary as the main killing weapon (sporelacer with cold residual (yes its a summoner build)) the extra survivability it grants is too nice to pass up. Even took off shield of shadows and was surviving well enough in a 20 min sp mot survival. Granted I had to cast terrify more often XD

Edited July 4 by Sephylon086918

[Sephylon086918]

1 hour ago, IcarusRTS said:

Yeah but that requires you to either sacrifice Secondary Merciless, Cascadia Flare etc just to get Overguard or you have to give up Secondary Encumber on a primer secondary just to get Overguard for more gating. On top of this, Magnetic even with the buffs is REALLY hard to slot in on a Secondary given the usual meta is Heat + Viral or Slash + Viral for them. Primers ideal elements didn't exactly change either, Electricity and Viral are commonly wanted elements on them. As for why Electricity is mentioned, Electricity stuns enemies and thus making it easier to aim against them, this effectiveness is improved with combination of Cold (Epitaph's forced Cold procs as an example).

Actually, this brought up another question

What level of content are we talking about? Something like c rotation in an endless sp mission(the longest I usually stay on a mission), endurance runs (1hr+), or netra/eda?

[IcarusRTS]

9 hours ago, Sephylon086918 said:

Would be a per person basis I think. Would said person value the extra damage from merciless more or the extra survivability, of quickly removing overguard on an eximus to cc them+gaining overguard. Personally my secondary was a buffing tool anyways (grimoire modded for mag, multi and fire rate), so getting overguard ontop was just perfect. Even on my nekros who uses his secondary as the main killing weapon (sporelacer with cold residual (yes its a summoner build)) the extra survivability it grants is too nice to pass up. Even took off shield of shadows and was surviving well enough in a 20 min sp mot survival. Granted I had to cast terrify more often XD

Thats fair. For my case Epitaph's utility to good for me to pass up on top of Secondary Encumber boosting melee or guns with CO a lot.

9 hours ago, Sephylon086918 said:

Actually, this brought up another question

What level of content are we talking about? Something like c rotation in an endless sp mission(the longest I usually stay on a mission), endurance runs (1hr+), or netra/eda?

Honestly, this question doesn't have one single answer, it heavily depends on which type of "endgame" content we are talking about. In the case of SP Circuit, using either Merciless or Fortifier wouldn't exactly matter when Decrees cover you either way regardless if you are doing levelcap run there to get both Incarnon Adapters in one run or you are running smaller runs. Mirror Defense, specifically Murmur one as it rewards Stela, depends heavily on your team' loadout regarding how far can you go as unlike Circuit defense objectives, Mirror Defense Objectives and by extension Defense Objectives don't scale with enemy level.

Now as for Netracells, Deep Archemedia and Elite Archemedia, all of them have ways to gimp CC focused Warframes.

Given that likes of SP Circuit gave us the option to minmax vs Levelcap to maximise our effectiveness vs said level, I personally believe that if I am minmaxing a weapon vs Levelcap, it would still kill low levels and therefore a build for a weapon, warframe etc for levelcap is the best option as it works vs all levels. Of course this will differ from player to player.

I forgot to mention Void Cascade as its known for being one of the best plat farms in the game since it respects the time you put into each run, it can also gimp CC frames at times given the Thrax have diminished CC duration on top of their Overguard.

Edited July 4 by IcarusRTS

[IcarusRTS]

On 2024-07-02 at 11:28 AM, IcarusRTS said:

CC That Affect Enemy Movement Speed

Make this kind of CC have reduced effectiveness vs Overguard. This will keep them in line with Cold's interaction with Overguard since Cold's status effect is a CC that affects enemy movement. Frames like Nova, Sevagoth etc. will benefit from this change. Any other CC that either indirectly debuff enemy movement (Vortex, Tornado, Rhino Stomp) should keep this mechanic as a feature whether at its current state or at reduced effectiveness (Rhino Stomp).

CC That Disables Enemies But Has No Secondary Effects

This particular CC basically has no secondary effects that either helps the frame to survive (Condemn) or has a debuff that allows the frame to kill Overguarded enemies faster (Sentient Stomp). As an example, Stasis could slow down Overguarded enemies when they are in the Rift albeit at a reduced duration compared to hard CC portion of the ability. You all may post your own ideas of what other hard CC with no or outdated Secondary Effects should do vs Overguard.

Grouping CC

Grouping CC should be allowed the group up Overguarded enemies without them disabling their enemies with their hard CC (Larva, Vortex, Airburst) so grouping CC with this proposal should act like Magus Anomaly (before its nerf vs Overguard) as Magus Anomaly before its nerf used to just pull enemies without disabling them.

Weapon Jamming/Disarming CC

Overguarded units should be affected by this type of CC, but they switch to melee combat instantly as long as they have Overguard on and they don't affected by any sort of brief hard CC said type of CC may impose.

Blinding/Sleep CC

Blinding CC should make Overguarded enemies fire and use their abilities in any direction, making them still dangerous even when they can't see you. Sleeping CC should briefly slow down Overguarded enemies.

Conclusion

These changes should allow CC to thrive while not completely trivializing the game and thus meeting the main goal of Overguard. Feel free to post your own takes on what you think should be with CC interactions with Overguard.

 

 

I would like to add another suggestion to my proposal to reinforce the idea that CC shouldn't shut down or nearly shut down Overguarded enemies while still allowing CC to affect Overguard to a degree. Make slow CC NOT stack, this would prevent situations like applying Cold procs onto eximus only to get slowed down to halt by a Slow Nova. Instead, the slow effects should overwrite the other if existing slow is weaker effect than the new slow. 

[CoNsTaNt1nE-UK1]

I agree that some skills should cc overguard to an extent (slow). Especially when it comes to 4th abilities focused on cc and no damage dealing capability. 

[IcarusRTS]

I would like to bring up another idea to this suggestion. For context, I decided to check Nova in particular, specifically the Antimatter Absorb augment. This augment basically turns the ability into a moving shield that absorbs enemy fire within its path until it hits any obstacle.

Why not make Stasis in particular make you and allies have a personal forcefield that protects you from all gunfire instead of the current freeze enemy bullet mechanic that has tendency to make Stasis prematurely end whenever there is too many overguarded enemies with high fire rate weapons. This would allow Stasis to be MUCH more useful as a CC.

[_Anise_]

I suggested this elsewhere but I think it would be fun if hard cast CC ate percentile chunks of overguard per cast and passive ccs slowly ate a much smaller percentile amount of overguard away per tick.

this could probably go some way to elevate it feeling like CC frames are completely ineffective when the eximus units roll out

Edited July 16 by _Anise_