I'm quiting Warframe because the game doesn't have a second bottom, half of the mechanics are useless at the start and bosses are often torture by boredom (Lephantis, I'm looking at you).

[Lazar0991]

And the worst thing is that all these problems could be fixed by adjusting the process of spawning enemies, correct the amount of energy by default (seriously, why is the amount of energy at the start so small? Who in their right mind could think that this is okay?), rework the levels a little bit and add spawning of minibosses/special enemies so the player have more motivation to use other game systems, and you have a masterpiece. But instead, the game is a mess of different ideas that exist independently of each other. At least at the start, which is so terribly boring that it kills any motivation to continue playing.

[dwqrf]

Considering you didn't get out of the tutorial and that you are still playing content from 2013-2015, it's not a surprise you might find it a bit old, teious and boring.

You didn't experience 1% of what Warframe is about. The devs learnt with time and made better content.

You opinion is valid, but a bit biased, and quite superficial.

I hope you would give it a fair try.

[Zakkhar]

Godspeed. Warframe is clearly not the game for you.

33 minutes ago, Lazar0991 said:

correct the amount of energy by default (seriously, why is the amount of energy at the start so small? Who in their right mind could think that this is okay?)

It is ok.

Energy Capacity | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

Can be easily modified and increased via mods or shards.

PS: Lephantis fight being long is a skill/gear/modding issue, there are bosses who are far worse (Ambulas/Tyl Regor).

Edited September 12 by Zakkhar

[Lazar0991]

19 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Considering you didn't get out of the tutorial and that you are still playing content from 2013-2015, it's not a surprise you might find it a bit old, teious and boring.

You didn't experience 1% of what Warframe is about. The devs learnt with time and made better content.

You opinion is valid, but a bit biased, and quite superficial.

I hope you would give it a fair try.

Your answer only shows that DE does not care about new players. If the developers know that the early game is bad and don't do anything about it, it just shows where their priorities are. If they don't want to spend time rebalancing starting stages it means they are only interested in milking old players instead of attracting new ones.

[Lazar0991]

5 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Godspeed. Warframe is clearly not the game for you.

It is ok.

Energy Capacity | WARFRAME Wiki | Fandom

Can be easily modified and increased via mods or shards.

PS: Lephantis fight being long is a skill/gear/modding issue, there are bosses who are far worse (Ambulas/Tyl Regor).

Except that the ability to insert mods is limited to the warframe level. Which means a boring grind. And, by the way, a boss that forces you to play a waiting game without challenges has always been a sign of bad game design. And again, beginners do not have access to good mods even when they have already reached Jupiter. So again, your comment shows that this game is clearly not for beginners because no one is interested in balanced content for those who just started the game. You either become a beggarand and that someone else will help you, or you suffer from a dragging boss fights. Either way, it's a bad game design.

[dwqrf]

il y a 12 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

DE does not care about new players.

il y a 3 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

this game is clearly not for beginners because

That's the difference. Warframe is great for new players. Not so great for new gamers.

[Zakkhar]

1 minute ago, Lazar0991 said:

Except that the ability to insert mods is limited to the warframe level.

If you insert less instead of putting w/e, you will have more starting energy. There need to be some restraints.

2 minutes ago, Lazar0991 said:

Which means a boring grind

This is a grindshooter. You rank up doing pretty much everything, what kind of gameplay you decide to run is entirely up to you. If you picked a boring style, that is on you as well. 

5 minutes ago, Lazar0991 said:

And, by the way, a boss that forces you to play a waiting game without challenges has always been a sign of bad game design.

I agree. Allthough normal Lephantis is not that kind of boss (heads can be 1shotted or slowed to in order to widen the damage window). The 2 bosses i mentioned take a long time, while taking away player's agency.

7 minutes ago, Lazar0991 said:

And again, beginners do not have access to good mods even when they have already reached Jupiter.

What do you consider good mods? 

8 minutes ago, Lazar0991 said:

So again, your comment shows that this game is clearly not for beginners because no one is interested in balanced content for those who just started the game.

I was beginner once. We all have. I havent had any mentor or clan, I played solo pretty much till MR12. I did not have every mod or every weapon in the game all at once. That is what the game is for - road to obtaining those. Normal starchart is quite imbalanced, in the meaning it is too easy.

11 minutes ago, Lazar0991 said:

You either become a beggarand and that someone else will help you, or you suffer from a dragging boss fights

First boss fight I was confused on was Sargas Ruk on Saturn. I had random player who joined and for some reason he flamed me because he couldnt carry the mission himself and left. I read what to do and redid it no prob (solo this time).

Getting free items and getting carried is robbing new players of the sense of progression (rank up the frame, get more mods capacity, get better mods, rank them up, equip them, feel the difference - if you never played without them you will not feel any difference, this will be your starting point - a cheat code).

[Lazar0991]

9 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

That's the difference. Warframe is great for new players. Not so great for new gamers.

How cute that you thought I was a new player. But no, I've been playing since the early 2000s, and that's the problem. Because I know better. But don't let this confuse you, I already understood that you are one of the "white knights" who perceive fair criticism as an attack on the game. Well, as already was said above, Warframe is a game for boomers and new players are not welcome if they dare to openly point out flaws, I understand, I'm moving on.

[Zakkhar]

16 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Warframe is great for new players. Not so great for new gamers.

In the cases he mentions yeah it is good for new players, but there are still those pesky slots and horrendous crafting timers that are extremly new-player-unfriendly.

New gamers would be fine too, it is more about modern gamers, who expect heavy hand-holding. Guess, I am a boomer, because I do not.

Edited September 12 by Zakkhar

[Lazar0991]

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

If you insert less instead of putting w/e, you will have more starting energy. There need to be some restraints.

Outdated design. Most new games allow you to level your character up to account level instead of artificially increasing gameplay time. I understand when a new player is not given a max level right away, but if you didn't understand, I got to Mercury, why do I have to repeat what I already know?

[Lazar0991]

7 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

In the cases he mentions yeah it is good for new players, but there are still those pesky slots and horrendous crafting timers that are extremly new-player-unfriendly.

New gamers would be fine too, it is more about modern gamers, who expect heavy hand-holding. Guess, I am a boomer, because I do not.

Good for new players is to have fun from the start. I don't see how Warframe is fun for someone who wants to use warframe abilities from the start or have room to experiment with builds. And Waframe also fails as a horde shooter, and there's no random gear drop like Diablo. So what is this game about?

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

Most new games

Warframe isn't new, and Warframe isn't most games.
It's old school.
It's hard.
It's doesn't tell you sh*t and let you struggle and drown. That's how you learn and become a better and smarter player, independantly of your account's power. If you fall into frustration and blame the game, you already lost.

Of course Warframe isn't perfect; there is some stuff that could be made easier, and more logical. Sure. But there is also a lot of stuff which is intended (or was intended) that way. If the content is hard now, know that it gets even harder, and only a well educated (or copying) player can make the use of all the tools and the accumulated knowledge to breeze through the content.

il y a 2 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

 So what is this game about?

And you will never know until you get out of the tutorial which is the whole star chart. As long as you didn't reach Sedna and completed the Main Story quests, you are lost, confused and limited, and that's totally normal.

Now it's up to you to keep fighting your way through the limitations with the tools which are given to you. The power will come, and the power will feel rewarding because you'll get it with your own sweat, one step at a time.

And if it's already too hard for you now, you probably missed some important hints on your way and tried to go too far, too fast, for you.

[dwqrf]

il y a 22 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

you are one of the "white knights"

And I have to let you know that I'm really grey on the matter. There is a lot of stuff I dislike and disagree with. I can totally agree that the new player experience is definitely not easy ; and with a lot of steps back, I can assure you that Warframe is the most difficult at the beginning of the game. And that's great somehow, and that's sad somehow. But it does filter players that are impatient, or force them to pay their way through ; or you know, best case scenario : to teach them to accept things as they are and to change their point of view, becoming more patient, and learning to enjoy what they have now instead of always trying to reach some endgame they can't understand anything about, yet.

Now you can choose which kind of player you are. It's your call.

[Lazar0991]

Just now, dwqrf said:

It's hard.

Are you serious? Elden Ring is moderately difficult, Darkest Dungeon is moderately difficult, Doom Eternal on Nightmare is somewhat stressful, but Warframe? Have you even played anything but Warframe?Kid, you tried to be smug, but only outed yourself as as the biggest casual on the planet

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, Lazar0991 a dit :

Are you serious? Elden Ring is moderately difficult, Darkest Dungeon is moderately difficult, Doom Eternal on Nightmare is somewhat stressful, but Warframe? Have you even played anything but Warframe?Kid, you tried to be smug, but only outed yourself as as the biggest casual on the planet

And yet, you don't seem able to play it. Maybe your idea of difficult is different than mine ; and that's fine. Warframe difficulty is about discpline and time spent. It's not about combat, never was. You want to have everything handed to you in the blink of an eye. Sorry, that's not this game.

[Lazar0991]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

And yet, you don't seem able to play it.

Because it's boring and monotonous, and it's too easy, and at the same time the game doesn't let me play with the toys that lured me in - there isn't enough energy to use warframes, and parkour is useless. All that remains is to point the weapon in the general direction of enemy bodies and kill them with one shot. And yes, this is the norm for a horde shooter game, but normal horde shooters have a lot more enemies at the beginning and there are special enemies. Although talking to you, I realized that the game is clearly not for me, as someone who enjoyed Payday 2 and Vermintide 2, I clearly made a mistake when I thought that Warframe would be the same, unfortunately the game did not warn me that the target audience is supercasual who see wasting time on a boring activity as a challenge.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

Because it's boring and monotonous, and it's too easy, and at the same time the game doesn't let me play with the toys that lured me in - there isn't enough energy to use warframes, and parkour is useless. All that remains is to point the weapon in the general direction of enemy bodies and kill them with one shot. And yes, this is the norm for a horde shooter game, but normal horde shooters have a lot more enemies at the beginning and there are special enemies. Although talking to you, I realized that the game is clearly not for me, as someone who enjoyed Payday 2 and Vermintide 2, I clearly made a mistake when I thought that Warframe would be the same, unfortunately the game did not warn me that the target audience is supercasual who see wasting time on a boring activity as a challenge.

And you failed to notice the number of enemies scale with the number of players in the squad, until a point where you can have max number of enemies even solo ; for example. And that combat difficulty doesn't exist in normal Star Chart ; where you are now. You are struggling to see that the time you spend now is meant to teach you the important ropes of the game, that you'll need to use later. You skip it as it's already common knowledge, failing to realize not every new players have access to the same super awesome experience and skill you already own. If you are that good, it's not a little bit of time that should scare you in a MMORPG Hack&Slash. You didn't even start the main story quest on Uranus, and yet, you claim the game is empty and that everything is useless. Let me say : Ha !

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

A lot of what you are describing, from the sounds of it, isn't really a Warframe specific issue, but a broader general discussion around individuals, interactions with media, and perspectives and contextualising. For example, there are a few games, that I am not personally interested in pursuing as far as time, effort and money. Are these bad games? I wouldn't say that, some seem good by objective criteria. Are these unpopular games? Some are actually very popular. Do they justify their own existence as far as money made versus money invested and or some sort of ongoing sustainability (if its the kind of game that is ongoing in nature), as far as my examples, yes, some of them do. 

Does that mean those games should be trying to attract me to the game? I mean, in a very generic broad way? Sure? There are positives to that, but also, not all games, can appeal to all people. Not only that, certain games, in order to appeal to me personally and specifically, may end up changing in ways that run counter productively to what they are. Meaning putting them at odds with other people, their ability to sustain, or creating some other issue. Does that mean that game hates potential new players as a collective? Or that I as an individual bounced off some of its systems? Which isn't also to say that multiple individuals can bounce off a game, or that can't spell bad news for a game, because that can happen too. 

Also not all players preferences and tastes have to necessarily conflict. People often forget neutrality or apathy, as far as the dynamic as like, dislike, enjoyment, and lack of. So when people talk about how "things could just be better if these issues are fixed", I mean sure, but such threads are relatively common over the months and yeahs, however, importantly... peoples "things to simply fix" often differ, and they are valid, as far as individuals go, but sometimes they are also tone deaf to others, and take for granted that individuals ability to actually consider and understand other perspectives beyond their own. If its the kind of issue that is that negative for them, they bounce off the game. That is unfortunate, but also... often that thing isn't actually a huge deal or issue to others. Could such things be changed? Potentially, but they also may not. This is where context can matter too. For some people the joy or value elsewhere may override such issues. 

There is likely stuff you like and enjoy that many will bounce off, because of issues they have, that are non issues for you. Understanding and acknowledging that, is what helps feedback become good and valuable. For example could starting energy be looked at? Maybe, but its also a bit complex, because there are multiple factors that contribute to it, including progression. Some players who enjoy being able to influence such stats and progression, may enjoy the sort of arrangement as it is now. Though it could also potentially be modified (and has been over the years), to accomodate players who find less joy in that, and would enjoy more energy at the beginning without having to adjust the value with actions or progression. For many many players, they might have preferences, but they may also not be something they feel strongly about, either in a negative or positive way. Being able to bullet jump around as a cool character with space powers and fun guns is way more important, and something they care about, or even the criticisms they have may be more about monetisation issues. So the person criticising the small energy is... valid, but also shrug worthy to them. 

So its more nuance than being a "hater" or "white knight", but involves the dynamics of individuals ability to consider and understand other forces and processes. 

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, (PSN)slightconfuzzled a dit :

A lot of what you are describing, from the sounds of it, isn't really a Warframe specific issue, but a broader general discussion around individuals, interactions with media, and perspectives and contextualising. For example, there are a few games, that I am not personally interested in pursuing as far as time, effort and money. Are these bad games? I wouldn't say that, some seem good by objective criteria. Are these unpopular games? Some are actually very popular. Do they justify their own existence as far as money made versus money invested and or some sort of ongoing sustainability (if its the kind of game that is ongoing in nature), as far as my examples, yes, some of them do. 

Does that mean those games should be trying to attract me to the game? I mean, in a very generic broad way? Sure? There are positives to that, but also, not all games, can appeal to all people. Not only that, certain games, in order to appeal to me personally and specifically, may end up changing in ways that run counter productively to what they are. Meaning putting them at odds with other people, their ability to sustain, or creating some other issue. Does that mean that game hates potential new players as a collective? Or that I as an individual bounced off some of its systems? Which isn't also to say that multiple individuals can bounce off a game, or that can't spell bad news for a game, because that can happen too. 

Also not all players preferences and tastes have to necessarily conflict. People often forget neutrality or apathy, as far as the dynamic as like, dislike, enjoyment, and lack of. So when people talk about how "things could just be better if these issues are fixed", I mean sure, but such threads are relatively common over the months and yeahs, however, importantly... peoples "things to simply fix" often differ, and they are valid, as far as individuals go, but sometimes they are also tone deaf to others, and take for granted that individuals ability to actually consider and understand other perspectives beyond their own. If its the kind of issue that is that negative for them, they bounce off the game. That is unfortunate, but also... often that thing isn't actually a huge deal or issue to others. Could such things be changed? Potentially, but they also may not. This is where context can matter too. For some people the joy or value elsewhere may override such issues. 

There is likely stuff you like and enjoy that many will bounce off, because of issues they have, that are non issues for you. Understanding and acknowledging that, is what helps feedback become good and valuable. For example could starting energy be looked at? Maybe, but its also a bit complex, because there are multiple factors that contribute to it, including progression. Some players who enjoy being able to influence such stats and progression, may enjoy the sort of arrangement as it is now. Though it could also potentially be modified (and has been over the years), to accomodate players who find less joy in that, and would enjoy more energy at the beginning without having to adjust the value with actions or progression. For many many players, they might have preferences, but they may also not be something they feel strongly about, either in a negative or positive way. Being able to bullet jump around as a cool character with space powers and fun guns is way more important, and something they care about, or even the criticisms they have may be more about monetisation issues. So the person criticising the small energy is... valid, but also shrug worthy to them. 

So its more nuance than being a "hater" or "white knight", but involves the dynamics of individuals ability to consider and understand other forces and processes. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

 

How did you find a picture of me so fast?

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, (PSN)slightconfuzzled a dit :

How did you find a picture of me so fast?

You know, sometimes I'm really worried I'm writing too much.
So let me tell you this : I'm grateful.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Just now, dwqrf said:

You know, sometimes I'm really worried I'm writing too much.
So let me tell you this : I'm grateful.

 

I imagine. I have seen the size of some your longer posts, and they can rival my own in length, but there are a few users that write even longer than us both, here and there. 

Human nature and all that, different people express themselves differently. I think its a beautiful thing. 

Take care! 

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, (PSN)slightconfuzzled a dit :

there are a few users that write even longer than us both, here and there.

[Lazar0991]

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

And you failed to notice the number of enemies scale with the number of players in the squad

Bad idea. Especially if you take into account that the fewer enemies there are, the less chance of energy drops, which effectively just takes away half of the fun from players.  And all this happens because developers are simply too lazy to fix old mistakes. And by the wau, if you consider how much the player is too strong at the start, there is a suspicion that this was done to punish solo players by reducing their chances of loot dropping.

3 hours ago, dwqrf said:

You are struggling to see that the time you spend now is meant to teach

Because learning is not possible without challenges. And by the way, I don't think that the game is trying to teach me anything, it looks more like DE just want to bind players to the game through sunk cost fallacy.

[dwqrf]

il y a 33 minutes, Lazar0991 a dit :

fallacy.