De, It's Time To Let Go: Enemy Armor Has Failed.

[Otaiken]

arguing FOR current system. even as bugged, the problem is still solvable, it just requires trial and error and a bit of ingenuity. not saying i'm smarter than you, just a bit more creative... or maybe patient would be a better word.

 

and in either case, even as bugged again, the system is still superior to the old by way of diversity.

if and when they fix it to work as intended, your current gun will be exceptionally powerful and will mow down those grineer you're having such a hard time with, which in damage 1.0 it would do nothing by comparison. When the (probably) inevitable fix comes down to damage 2.0, your gun will function.

 

until then you need to either find a build that works under the malfunctioning damage system or find a new gun entirely, both of which are relatively easy and painless.

 

in either case 2.0 is better than 1.0.

 

I like damage 2.0. I don't like the armor scaling, which is not part of the damage 2.0 it's the remnants of the 1.0 system. You can rework the armor system while keeping damage 2.0 and its bonuses. They are not mutually exclusive. You could give flat reduction on top of HP growth. You can make armor into armor health bar, it's effective halth anyway. You can do various things while keeping damage consistent and enemies will be just as tough as you want them.

 

The armor system is broken, there are better alternatives, it has nothing to do with elemental bonuses. You can keep those, I want the scaling damage reduction gone.

 

You completely missed the point, you latched onto the post of the ONE guy that said he'd rather have damage 1.0 and then assumed all of us here feel the same way. That is not the case, we're talking about broken armor scaling here.

 

Adn changing the armor system is exactly the tweak damage 2.0 needs, exactly the tweak you talk about. You're essentially agreeing with me with all your posts, yet you don't realize it.

 

And forcing players to something is never a good game design. Just hearing that I should abandon my favorite weapons to comply with broken system should tell game designer that he failed at the most fundamental level. Hell, I'm not even using the "wrong" weapon.. I'm using puncture weapon ffs. Talk about mess...

 

All the "fixes" DE have done so far btw was pushing the point where the damage reduction gets ridiculous a little higher. This solves nothing, new system would be better. Scaling damage reduction is broken, untrasparent, unintuitive, hard to tweak system that simply has to go. And THAT is my point, damage 2.0 has NOTHING to do with it. Actually, this one last piece of 1.0 system is the one thing that causes trouble for me in 2.0.

 

So I ask again, what side are you on? If you're for scaling damage reduction aka armor then present arguments for that, not dmg 2.0 and its elemental system.

Edited December 17, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[notionphil]

I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm going to ask you to experiment for yourself and get back to me on this one, by PM if neccesary. I'd love a few more players to check into this.

 

I understand and will definitely look into this as well

 

arguing FOR current system. even as bugged, the problem is still solvable, it just requires trial and error and a bit of ingenuity. not saying i'm smarter than you, just a bit more creative... or maybe patient would be a better word.

 

and in either case, even as bugged again, the system is still superior to the old by way of diversity.

if and when they fix it to work as intended, your current gun will be exceptionally powerful and will mow down those grineer you're having such a hard time with, which in damage 1.0 it would do nothing by comparison. When the (probably) inevitable fix comes down to damage 2.0, your gun will function.

 

until then you need to either find a build that works under the malfunctioning damage system or find a new gun entirely, both of which are relatively easy and painless.

 

in either case 2.0 is better than 1.0.

 

Agreed that 2.0 is better than 1.0 in many ways, however, it's still far from good.

 

There is zero reason to have only a select group of weapons, and a single damage type (corrosive) perform in the bulk of endgame content. It takes all of the fun out of the game if +armor is actually the only thing we need to build for. 2.0, like many aspects of Warframe, is the epitome of squandered potential.

 

The dev's build 10+ damage types, each with a unique proc. Then they designed 5 unique resistances.

 

Then, they decided that all of the hard mobs would have the same resistance, and that it would be the only resistance which mitigated damage, and made one damage type really powerful against it. So....ok, corrosive it is. On everything.

 

There should never, ever be a single "correct" build for endgame.

[OblivionNecroninja]

arguing FOR current system. even as bugged, the problem is still solvable, it just requires trial and error and a bit of ingenuity. not saying i'm smarter than you, just a bit more creative... or maybe patient would be a better word.

 

and in either case, even as bugged again, the system is still superior to the old by way of diversity.

if and when they fix it to work as intended, your current gun will be exceptionally powerful and will mow down those grineer you're having such a hard time with, which in damage 1.0 it would do nothing by comparison. When the (probably) inevitable fix comes down to damage 2.0, your gun will function.

 

until then you need to either find a build that works under the malfunctioning damage system or find a new gun entirely, both of which are relatively easy and painless.

 

in either case 2.0 is better than 1.0.

Why would you EVER want infinitly scaling damage reduction for grineer? Because that's what the current system is.

It's what the previous system was too.

Until Scaling Damage Reduction goes away, the game remains fundamentally broken. 

[Otaiken]

I'm not letting this topic go...

[magusat999]

I think its pretty simple - we are the hero in this game. The Hero should always have an answer to the enemies strengths. The Infested = Fire; The Corprus = Electricity; The Grineer = AP; the Corrupted = Rainbow - or at least that how it was. By scaling armor ad infinitum, the game makes armored enemies (especially Grineer) much too tough to deal with with any sort of satisfaction or efficiency. You don't scale something without equally scaling it's "anti", when you do that, you create an impossible situation.

 

So what should DE do about this? Sure, fix the bug that is making some weapons ineffective- but also something unpopular with some of you, but makes sense. Un-nerf Soma, Strun, and other currently inherently (due to 2.0's parameters) Critical / AP weapons. Damage 2.0 should have introduced new types of damages and resistances - not become a major buff for enemies + a major nerf for weapons. Even after 2.0 we should still hear people whining about guns like the SOMA - not just because it should have survived 2.0, but because that's the way the SOMA was designed (Soma is just an example, don't get stuck there). DE should not have used 2.0 to reduce the effectiveness of weapons (again, big NERF), but to make the game more varied. It should have made other weapons MORE effective, while leaving the others alone. 

[HillsAndTheSea]

I think its pretty simple - we are the hero in this game. The Hero should always have an answer to the enemies strengths. The Infested = Fire; The Corprus = Electricity; The Grineer = AP; the Corrupted = Rainbow - or at least that how it was. By scaling armor ad infinitum, the game makes armored enemies (especially Grineer) much too tough to deal with with any sort of satisfaction or efficiency. You don't scale something without equally scaling it's "anti", when you do that, you create an impossible situation.

 

So what should DE do about this? Sure, fix the bug that is making some weapons ineffective- but also something unpopular with some of you, but makes sense. Un-nerf Soma, Strun, and other currently inherently (due to 2.0's parameters) Critical / AP weapons. Damage 2.0 should have introduced new types of damages and resistances - not become a major buff for enemies + a major nerf for weapons. Even after 2.0 we should still hear people whining about guns like the SOMA - not just because it should have survived 2.0, but because that's the way the SOMA was designed (Soma is just an example, don't get stuck there). DE should not have used 2.0 to reduce the effectiveness of weapons (again, big NERF), but to make the game more varied. It should have made other weapons MORE effective, while leaving the others alone. 

 

im assuming you are new here. damage 2.0 improved the effectiveness of basically all the weapons in the game,

 

the problem is, one of the major issues of damage 1.0 (i.e. infinite armor scaling) is still a very present issue that has not been adressed. grineer/corrupted still remain a nightmare once they hit a certain level especially the heavy units. this effectively creates a brick wall and completely ruins warframe's current "endgame"

 

but the enemies are by no means stronger. the only way you could even argue the enemies being "stronger", is due to the complete gimping of warframe armor and the fact that enemies can proc you with status effects

 

but on the plus side, corpus/infested is are alot more tolerable overall, ancients feel more like fleshy meatbags rather than iron bulldozers, and the new corpus gas tileset is surprisingly refreshing

[Baigan]

... and the new corpus gas tileset is surprisingly refreshing

 

I see what you did there :D

[AmmoRejected]

snip

 

I'm sorry, but arguing builds that do or don't do well with the current state of things is nothing productive to the goals hoped to be achieved here, at least to my understanding. We don't need to hassle with what build does the best, because we shouldn't have to use that specific gun and build to do that. ALL guns will do better or worse depending on their stats, but they need to still be at least viable to use. I am NOT going to farm a Latron Prime (fu barrel bp) and level it just because the consensus might be that it does the best... what about the rest of the weapons? melee? All it does is gimp EVERYTHING to keep armor scaling, except the gun and build we determine comes out on top. Wrong idea here.

 

Over and over I keep reading (here or other topics) people desiring change in the way armor works -because scaling still exists and poses serious issue, as it did before- and every time it is countered by some single-weapon toting player who goes around "X weapon with Y build does Z damage to W enemy and it works just fine; use it!" (never used a 4 letter example before, lol, W was elected) and it isn't helping the situation, but rather turning it into a drawn-out build war or debate over what 2.0 should or shouldn't have done. 2.0 was 'ARMOR 2.0' in the beginning as far as I know, and was being implemented to FIX the issues with ARMOR, not to introduce a whole new weapon system. I will admit I do like the system, it's very fun and I'd like to keep it, but when it stopped being Armor 2.0 and became Damage 2.0 it's like the whole thing with scaling was swept under the rug in favor of the damage system. NEWS FLASH! We still have poor armor scaling, we simply have a more complicated way of building anti-armor that gets absolutely bent over by level 50-60+.

 

So... when can we get that scaling fix? or are we going to just keep tweaking Damage 2.0 to work around the scaling issue? Do us all a favor, DE, and stop updating with new weapons, new warframes, and new weapon nerfs to OP guns until you've fixed the issue. It does no good to take a possibly perfectly fine gun to it's knees with the rest of them because those using the others cry "OP!" until the core reason that their guns are doing so poorly is fixed; Only at such a point will the nerfs actually carry any weight, because then we'll KNOW it's OP, not simply that everything else does poorly. (unique few that can be built right excluded. we don't need advocates of said builds, we need issues fixed)

[NeroUmbra]

At issue here are two things I think.

 

First is armor scaling and how to defeat it, which leads to:

 

Second, single viable endgame build.

 

Most MMOs I've played DO have a 'single best endgame build' for each individual class.  The difference?  There are different classes with different abilities.  Warframe doesn't have that.

 

The other thing about the majority of MMOs is the the best endgame build is only marginally better than most of the options for that class.  The other builds are viable, just not quite as effective.  

 

In Warframe (and I haven't gotten there yet so I have to take the pros word for it) there is only one endgame weapon build that works.

 

In the endgame mobs armor, shields and health scale infinitely, correct?  The problem as I understand it is nothing flat out bypasses armor which provide damage reduction that scales to over 95%.

 

I think this can be addressed fairly easily.  First step would be to have some things that bypass armor, radiation perhaps, gas also seems like a possibility.

 

Second, perhaps have something that permanently degrades armor, the corrosion proc seems like a candidate.  Have it drop a percentage of current armor every time it procs perhaps, or a dot reduction of armor (that stays gone).  Taken in combination these would make for multiple viable builds that could bypass armor in the endgame.  Could take some balancing so that a single option does not outshine the others.

 

The SIMPLEST solution would be to turn armor into another hp bar like shields are and remove the damage reduction.  But since DE has resisted that option thus far I don't see them taking it at this point.

[DoomFruit]

Your post made it extremely obvious to me that you never did Void Defense III missions.

 

It got to the point where a single heavy gunner would require a trinity hit, nova ultimate, and TWO FULL CLIPS of a twice-polarized maximum modded strun wraith *and* soma to die.

 

and the rest of the wave was behind them.

 

The idea that damage 1.0 was better is completely asinine and untrue; it's not even a matter of opinion, 2.0 is much better all across the board. finally, most weapons are USEABLE as opposed to boltor/soma/stun wraith or GG at higher levels. the idea that a weapon should require armor ignore to be good is ridiculous.

 

oh, also... mentioning AP mods in such a light also pointedly highlights your lack of experience with upper level play. The amount of armor ignore damage that would give to a gun was so slight as to be largely irrelevant past level 100.

 

Funny, your post also makes it immediately obvious that you never did any T3 defence or fought any L100 enemies. I don't know what kind of crap you stuck on your weapons instead of damage mods (extra ammo? reload speed?), but these heavy gunners would drop dead from no more than 5 Ogris shots. I can't give you any numbers for the Soma (I never used it), but I distinctly recall seeing the other players melt multiple heavy gunners without reloading. And my Acrid still melted them in one clip or less. Perhaps your problem was that you were casting Well of Life on the enemies and giving them 10x their normal hitpoints?

 

Oh, and as for this bit:

The amount of armor ignore damage that would give to a gun was so slight as to be largely irrelevant past level 100.

 

You do, of course, realise that the very reason why the Soma was so powerful is because of this AP mod slapping on  armour-ignoring damage. Right?

[Sh4rk3y]

Funny, your post also makes it immediately obvious that you never did any T3 defence or fought any L100 enemies. I don't know what kind of crap you stuck on your weapons instead of damage mods (extra ammo? reload speed?), but these heavy gunners would drop dead from no more than 5 Ogris shots. I can't give you any numbers for the Soma (I never used it), but I distinctly recall seeing the other players melt multiple heavy gunners without reloading. And my Acrid still melted them in one clip or less. Perhaps your problem was that you were casting Well of Life on the enemies and giving them 10x their normal hitpoints?

 

 

I just finished a nightmare mission and on last wave i was hitting a level 30 Bombard for 200 with my 5x Forma'd Ogris. Took over 20 shots to kill.

So i really doubt that a level 100 heavy unit requires only 5 shots on late waves. 

[Otaiken]

Slightly off topic: Can we please stop transcribing the new enemy levels to the old enemy level system. 40-50 is roughly equivalent of around level 100 of old enemies. But please start using the new levels as this is extremely confusing.

 

You won't really reach level 100 enemies currently in pretty much any missions and even if you did you would do no damage to them whatsoever.

Edited December 17, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Otaiken]

In the old system AP damage simply bypassed damage reduction. That's what made it so important.

 

People seem to think that puncture and corrosive work the same way, but they don't. You get bonus damage against armor and after you get that bonus the entire thing gets reduced by armor. You have 100 corrosive damage for example, against Grineer that damage gets increased to 175, but if your target has 50% damage reduction the whole 175 damage gets then reduced to 87.5 damage. While, ironically, corrosive still does 100 to shields and infested. So at some point your anti-armor build becomes way more effective against other factions and less effective against the faction it is meant against.

 

I currently have no idea how crits work and there's a good possibility that they are bugged, which would explain why Soma is doing suprisingly well. I'll give you example, my Latron Prime does 180 damage to lvl 30 heavy on body shot, that becomes 360 on headshot. Headshot crit will do 900 damage (2.5 crit multiplier). Yet I hit that same heavy for 8 000 (!) on headshot crit. Now how is that possible? Can anyone explain this to me, cause the numbers don't add up here.

 

Even if that crit bypassed armor altogether I'd still crit for just 5-6k, not 8k. So crits are working in mysterious ways indeed.

Edited December 17, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Loveshack]

Armour scaling needs to be removed.  Warframes have flat armor, why not give flat armor to grineer in similar proportions?

In the meantime, I find using Despair to be a (barely) tolerable solution to the current problem.

Let me be clear - armour needs fixing and badly, but if you gotta get some work done in da Void right now, you could do worse than getting a maxed Despair with ammo mutation (you will dump so many rounds into those jerks).  

Obviously other top-end weapons work well (so I hear), but I am low mastery rank.  With Despair you can get almost 100 damage with headshots at the very end of Tower III defense, with decent attack speed, very very fast reload, and with ammo mutation I have never run dry.

[Otaiken]

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Edited December 17, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Malora_Sidewinder]

 

Phasellus pulvinar turpis in dui molestie pulvinar. Vivamus vestibulum luctus lorem non tempor. Mauris pellentesque, nunc quis rhoncus mattis, mi arcu rhoncus lacus, ultricies malesuada sem mauris eu dui. Donec non aliquam mi. Nullam scelerisque, ipsum nec consectetur imperdiet, nulla purus luctus lectus, non aliquet elit odio a nisi. Nam ut eros purus. Quisque interdum lorem at magna egestas, ac elementum est cursus. Cras massa diam, rutrum nec luctus eu, gravida sed velit. Duis venenatis augue augue, sed iaculis lorem elementum ut. Fusce ipsum nibh, lobortis ut viverra eget, adipiscing in lacus. Donec et fringilla eros. Morbi laoreet sapien eget dolor facilisis, in hendrerit ipsum laoreet. In tristique dignissim ante, vitae malesuada turpis sagittis sed. Etiam quis tellus tincidunt elit porttitor pellentesque. Etiam condimentum mollis varius. Aenean a vestibulum elit.

 

Your latin needs work, you didn't conjugate anything. /sarcasm

 

 

Funny, your post also makes it immediately obvious that you never did any T3 defence or fought any L100 enemies. I don't know what kind of crap you stuck on your weapons instead of damage mods (extra ammo? reload speed?), but these heavy gunners would drop dead from no more than 5 Ogris shots. I can't give you any numbers for the Soma (I never used it), but I distinctly recall seeing the other players melt multiple heavy gunners without reloading. And my Acrid still melted them in one clip or less. Perhaps your problem was that you were casting Well of Life on the enemies and giving them 10x their normal hitpoints?

 

Oh, and as for this bit:

 

 

 

You do, of course, realise that the very reason why the Soma was so powerful is because of this AP mod slapping on  armour-ignoring damage. Right?

 

No... You're so wrong that I was actually going to just flat ignore this post, but that last part drew me out. Soma was powerful because it was SUPER powerful, not because you could slap an ap mod on it...

 

you never did a level 3 void defense in 1.0.

at wave 1, soma would clear the room in a magazine.

at wave 5, soma would clear the room in a few magazines.

at wave 15 out of 20, soma would require 2 full clips on top of a nova ult in order to bring down a single heavy gunner corrupted.

 

maybe that's the disconnect here, you're thinking early waves void defense when i'm talking about wave 15+.

i apologize for not being more clear about it.

 

 

 

I just finished a nightmare mission and on last wave i was hitting a level 30 Bombard for 200 with my 5x Forma'd Ogris. Took over 20 shots to kill.

So i really doubt that a level 100 heavy unit requires only 5 shots on late waves. 

 

You're bringing a weapon that does reduced damage to them in the first place (blast is weak on armor) and complaining about it?

Edited December 17, 2013 by Malora_Sidewinder

[Sh4rk3y]

You're bringing a weapon that does reduced damage to them in the first place (blast is weak on armor) and complaining about it?

 

 

 

 

I didn't complain, i just made a comparison since DoomFruit said that a Ogris can kill a lv 100 heavy gunner with 5 shots.

Maybe learn to read before pointing fingers at people.

[Otaiken]

Your latin needs work, you didn't conjugate anything.

 

http://www.lipsum.com/

 

You tend to go straight for condescending/arrogant attitude, this is not helping you in getting your point across.

 

See, you didn't even consider this might be elaborate bump, or reference or anything else.. nope... straight to the assumption the other party is stupid, dumber than you, doing something wrong. You really ought to improve that. This essentially disqualifies you from any serious discussion, since arrogance prevents self-reflection and lack of self-reflection will prevent you from acknowledging any valid point opposition might have... hence making discussion with you pointless.

Edited December 17, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Malora_Sidewinder]

http://www.lipsum.com/

 

You tend to go straight for condescending/arrogant attitude, this is not helping you in getting your point across.

 

See, you didn't even consider this might be elaborate bump, or reference or anything else.. nope... straight to the assumption the other party is stupid, dumber than you, doing something wrong. You really ought to improve that. This essentially disqualifies you from any serious discussion, since arrogance prevents self-reflection and lack of self-reflection will prevent you from acknowledging any valid point opposition might have... hence making discussion with you pointless.

allow me to edit my post so that it's obvious i was joking. as most people do, i tend to forget sarcasm is lost via text.

[Otaiken]

allow me to edit my post so that it's obvious i was joking. as most people do, i tend to forget sarcasm is lost via text.

 

Not just in that case, pretty much every one of your posts.

 

Also, this is an excuse for a bump so I don't mind much. And sarcasm or not you still look like an A******. And even in your reply you keep the same tone.

Edited December 18, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[OblivionNecroninja]

Not just in that case, pretty much every one of your posts.

 

Also, this is an excuse for a bump so I don't mind much. And sarcasm or not you still look like an A******. And even in your reply you keep the same tone.

CHANGING THE SUBJECT!

 

In the old system AP damage simply bypassed damage reduction. That's what made it so important.

 

People seem to think that puncture and corrosive work the same way, but they don't. You get bonus damage against armor and after you get that bonus the entire thing gets reduced by armor. You have 100 corrosive damage for example, against Grineer that damage gets increased to 175, but if your target has 50% damage reduction the whole 175 damage gets then reduced to 87.5 damage. While, ironically, corrosive still does 100 to shields and infested. So at some point your anti-armor build becomes way more effective against other factions and less effective against the faction it is meant against.

 

I currently have no idea how crits work and there's a good possibility that they are bugged, which would explain why Soma is doing suprisingly well. I'll give you example, my Latron Prime does 180 damage to lvl 30 heavy on body shot, that becomes 360 on headshot. Headshot crit will do 900 damage (2.5 crit multiplier). Yet I hit that same heavy for 8 000 (!) on headshot crit. Now how is that possible? Can anyone explain this to me, cause the numbers don't add up here.

 

Even if that crit bypassed armor altogether I'd still crit for just 5-6k, not 8k. So crits are working in mysterious ways indeed.

So, in a nutshell, damage 2.0 makes the issues with scaling Grineer armor WORSE?

...Honestly, I actually saw this coming a mile away: everybody was all like "DE, Grineer armor scaling is bullS#&$" and DE was all like "We'll just change the damage system!" when it wasn't actually the PROBLEM. Sure, the new system is COOL, but the problem was never the DAMAGE system, but the ARMOR one.

[fatpig84]

Either armor ignore needs to scale again like Corrosive giving a flat -75% off armor or let it stop scaling.

Or armor is basically as a form of shields.

[Otaiken]

CHANGING THE SUBJECT!

 

So, in a nutshell, damage 2.0 makes the issues with scaling Grineer armor WORSE?

...Honestly, I actually saw this coming a mile away: everybody was all like "DE, Grineer armor scaling is bullS#&$" and DE was all like "We'll just change the damage system!" when it wasn't actually the PROBLEM. Sure, the new system is COOL, but the problem was never the DAMAGE system, but the ARMOR one.

 

In short, yes. It made it worse as the scaling remained but there is no longer any way to bypass it.

 

When 2.0 released, I actually expected armor to work like a health bar, like we suggested here on the forums. Seeing that the old scaling is still very much present actually surprised me. The irony is, that the biggest problem with the damage 2.0, is essentially the last remaining bit of damage 1.0 . When you overhaul, you need to go all the way. 

Edited December 18, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Malora_Sidewinder]

I think that Mass Effect 3 had an awesome armor system.

[DoomFruit]

No... You're so wrong that I was actually going to just flat ignore this post, but that last part drew me out. Soma was powerful because it was SUPER powerful, not because you could slap an ap mod on it...

 

you never did a level 3 void defense in 1.0.

at wave 1, soma would clear the room in a magazine.

at wave 5, soma would clear the room in a few magazines.

at wave 15 out of 20, soma would require 2 full clips on top of a nova ult in order to bring down a single heavy gunner corrupted.

 

maybe that's the disconnect here, you're thinking early waves void defense when i'm talking about wave 15+.

i apologize for not being more clear about it.

Maybe it's a headshot thing. I never remember enemies being that hard to kill even at waves 17-20.

 

As for my main point, this guy said it far better than me:

CHANGING THE SUBJECT!

 

So, in a nutshell, damage 2.0 makes the issues with scaling Grineer armor WORSE?

...Honestly, I actually saw this coming a mile away: everybody was all like "DE, Grineer armor scaling is bullS#&$" and DE was all like "We'll just change the damage system!" when it wasn't actually the PROBLEM. Sure, the new system is COOL, but the problem was never the DAMAGE system, but the ARMOR one.

 

The problem now is the complete absence of any kind of armour-ignoring damage type. In D1.0, you could always hit enemies with guaranteed 200-300 damage per strike (or more, depending on the weapon) charged melee hits, or whatever damage your AP modded primary secondary had. Regardless of their level or armour - because AP, physics impact and serrated blade always ignored armour. We can't do this any more. Armour is still the problem and D2.0 removed the only way we had of reliably countering that.

 

I just finished a nightmare mission and on last wave i was hitting a level 30 Bombard for 200 with my 5x Forma'd Ogris. Took over 20 shots to kill.

So i really doubt that a level 100 heavy unit requires only 5 shots on late waves. 

I was talking about Damage 1.0. Not 2.0. A 5x Forma Ogris was a complete monster in 1.0.