A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe: Weapon Spotlight

[LtZefar]

Just think about this. The Tigris is a double barrel shotgun. Currently you can increase the number of shots in the gun before you have to reload. So here is a question: Why use the Tigris at all? If you create a specific feature or purpose for a gun, it becomes negligible due to the over impact-fulness of mods. There is no reason to use the Tigris over the Strun. The Tigris is just a worse gun, and that should never be the result of hours of an artists' or programmers' hard work. That you spent all that time making a double barrel shotgun and no one would ever take it seriously or give it a chance. The Strun, Boar and even the Hek are vastly superior in their base form when compared to the Tigris. Because of the wonky firing mechanics and limited ammo, the Tigris is a joke. With my system, guns would speak for themselves. The point of the Tigris should be CC with massive damage, over sustained DPS at close range with something like the Strun. The implications of what my system entails is farther reaching that just simply getting rid of needless grind and making weapons interesting, as well as choice driven.

 

Tigris is not about sustained DPS. It can't sustain any type of DPS because it only fires two shot and then has to reload. A shotgun like Boar or Sobek has a DPS factor because they have more shots and can fire for a longer time. Tigris is just about a short burst damage.

 

I think one of the reason people don't use a double barreled shotgun is because it only got two shots and it's just annoying to reload after each shot.

 

I also fail to see how with your system this would change the Tigris. Hek got 4 barrels. Does that mean it'll be able to mod in 4 mods on each barrel? Like two extra bullet count and extra damage on the other two. It'd be vastly superior to Tigris then. Even if Hek just get to mod two barrels on it would still do better. It got 4 bullets and can mod in more damage or amount of pellets.

 

Also if damage mods are still around why would you pick anything else? 

 

 

The reason you would trade sustained DPS over CC has to be a result of what enemy you are encountering. These ideas exists because they predicate the notion that improved gameplay and AI will exist to compliment these changes. And hopefully the AI is something that can re-instill a sense of challenge and wonder in what has become a dull repetitive grind.  Guns like the Tigris benefit from systems like this. It keeps the focus on making choices about how you play instead of "what is the best min-max". 

But min maxing will still happen. Each weapon will always get a certain set of mods that will always be the best for them. 

For example, Soma will STILL use Critical mods in order to be good. But that's hoping you can actually mod up the Crit status that high with the new system. Then if it's possible to increase the Critical damage. If not, you've broken Soma to the point of oblivion. There would be no real reason to use Soma over Burston which has twice the damage Soma has.

 

Tigris having crowd control is questionable. Boar and Hek would honestly do a better job with more ammo and similar strength.

 

 

Let's assume the Infested are now sufficiently lethal now. You do not want them to get close to you. So you want to kill them before they get to you. Well what is ideal isn't always true and they might catch you while you are reloading your side arm (your means of dealing with distanced enemies), so you switch to your primary which happens to be the Tigris. A gun with innate knock back and high damage, meant for close personal defense. You can protect yourself and teammates while they hack terminals or revive allies. Thus making the Tigris a master of CC and a great option for supporting your allies who need to maintain distance from their enemy to be effective. 

You jump up on a box or shoot them down before they get close. Braton, Burston, Latron, Hek, Strun Wraith, Ogris and plenty of other weapons should be able to keep them at bay. Unless you plan on making them useless on range vs infested. Latron for example will deal high amount of damage and you could just throw on piercing shots on it and shoot through enemies.

 

Also Tigris would be more like this, shoot the two shots you got "GOTTA RELOAD!" over and over and over. Hell you could even use Brakk instead of Tigris and do a better job. Laugh isn't it?

Also why exactly would Tigris be a master of CC? Sobek and Strun Wraith would be far better options with their sustained DPS methods and high magazine count. 

 

 

 This idea also plays to the predication that roles will actually mean something, that you need a Tank, Controller and DPS to master content. Guns can be a factor in fulfilling that role. A Rhino with a shotgun that sends enemies flying is invaluable to a team. Guns should also fit to a style of play outside of just what is effective for what situation. But because the game is so heavily driven by numbers, repetition and randomness, doing something that is out of the ordinary punishes you. This current systems to not create real choice, thus stifle player inventiveness. Giving someone 1000 broken tools for to play is a &!$$ ridden 50x50x2 sandbox is not the same as giving someone 50 really useful and clever tools to play in a 25x25x10 sandbox. Warframe currently can best described as such. It and its systems of play have the vastness of the ocean with the depth of a puddle. As interest in seeing these ideas has stifled with time it is becoming more likely I will not finish these threads. With no feedback from DE themselves about what needs to be done and how these ideas fit into their concept of a game, it becomes a pointless uphill battle.

 

Having a strict set of roles for each character is stupid. What they should do is give character more skills to use and let people figure out new builds for them.

In Ragnarok Online you can play as a Hunter in late game without using a bow. You strictly rely on traps and it's awesome because the traps are devastating when used correctly. Because normally a hunter in Ragnarok Online would go pure Dex and Agi. Max attack speed and Max damage. But when going for Traps you suddenly start building an Int and Health build instead.

So putting a Tank role on someone and always have it as a tank is a boring thing to do. It adds no exploration for the player who plays that character and gives him very little to do. Also as a tank people are probably going to assume he's gonna use shotgun because he's gonna be up close.

 

But if we look up roles we would end up with a problem where some classes would just be too powerful.

 

Nova: Her ulti would kill everything and if you can't boost damage as much as you can do now you'd be able to last far longer if it was balanced out.

 

Rhino: Can still do a whole lot of damage with his ulti. Not to mention he'd be a tank now. Fastest tank in the entire game with a powerful stomp ability.

 

Ember: Can also deal a lot of damage.

 

Saryn: Can also deal a lot of damage. 

 

Mag: Boy can she deal damage, even with the first skill.

 

How would their abilities fair vs most enemies now that every weapon has a low damage? Lower the skill damage as well? That'd be boring.

 

Then we get to the point where enemies with scaling HP/Defense in Survival and Defense. How would that work out with such small damage values?

Do you really think just boosting the ammo count will help when an enemy takes 50 shotgun rounds to kill? :/

What about Armor scaling? Would that still be there? Because that thing is insane.

 

Also the most useful mod in your version of how the game would be, would most likely be Puncture mods. They'd be the one replacing the Serration type mods. Because shooting through enemies means having to shoot less on the enemies after that. But that's if you keep that mod left.

 

 

Imo removing the current system isn't the way to fix it. Instead, change some of the more useless mods to better versions of their previous self. Add more damage mods that actually does some wacky things. Even if it means having more of the same element. Because then you can customize your loadout even more.

It could mean having double Corrosive status when fighting against Grineer. That'd be something at least but at the same time you might want to go for a rainbow mod build instead because having blast in there is useful. You'd do less damage but knock them down a lot.

 

But removing stuff isn't the key here imo. Because if you're gonna balance weapons out it's just going to get Battlefield damage type weapons. Where most guns are the same.

[theGreatZamboni]

Snip

 

I suggest reading the Introduction thread.

[Basilisk1991]

Frankly I like the idea, I would love to see the attachments have a aesthetic effect on the weapon as well (Like the silencer attaching an ACTUAL silencer). I do agree that the mod system just seems like a cheap ploy to extend playtime and make money by selling mod packs. They can still keep all the damage 2.0 stuff. they would just need to rebalance the guns and the enemies health models. Again I totally like the idea and would love to see them implement it.

[LtZefar]

I suggest reading the Introduction thread.

 

I have read most of it. Still it doesn't change the fact that you said Tigris would be the masters of CC. What about Flamethrower? What about Synapse? What about Penta which can wipe out a lot of enemies relatively closely to you?

 

Also in the first post you brought up that weapons had different amount of slots. Then comes Dual Vasto with 12 whole slots. They could equip so many good mods compared to Acrid which just gets 2 slots. It makes Acrid even more useless.

 

Even now Vasto is kinda powerful with the right mods and you're gonna get 4 more. Why would anyone bother to use Kunais or Despairs after that because they have no slots. Or bother with pistols that have less slots than Vasto?

 

 

Actually taking a look at the Attachments you've suggested I can point out the most powerful ones.

 

Cores: Critical Damage, They are by default just going to increase your main attack damage. They will work well vs every faction and there is no telling how much Critical percent activation they get. But if you can rely on them it's bound to be high.

 

Magazine: Critical Rounds once again. The more critical the better.

 

Barrel: Split Chamber 100% of the time. You double your damage output and with Serration type mods gone this is the next best thing.

 

Underbarrel: Not knowing what Flashlight, Grip and Laser sight actually do the obvious choice would be Ammo Storage.

 

Accessory: Scopes? uuuum no. Then we only got Weapon specific attachment option left.

 

So honestly, your version is far far more limited than it is now. Also you've yet to comment the whole part about Rhino being a tank and Nova killing everything because she will potentially deal the highest damage of all units.

 

Try to at least counter some of these stuff because you're not giving much information about the new mod system and how it will magically improve the game.

 

Frankly I like the idea, I would love to see the attachments have a aesthetic effect on the weapon as well (Like the silencer attaching an ACTUAL silencer). I do agree that the mod system just seems like a cheap ploy to extend playtime and make money by selling mod packs. They can still keep all the damage 2.0 stuff. they would just need to rebalance the guns and the enemies health models. Again I totally like the idea and would love to see them implement it.

Why would you bother with a silencer when you can a multi shot attachment for double damage? Right now you can add a mod that reduce noise level by 100%. I think it makes your weapon have no sound and thus doesn't alert enemies.

There is also no bonus to go stealth in this game. You just get less kills, EXP, mods and rewards for doing so.

[Basilisk1991]

Why would you bother with a silencer when you can a multi shot attachment for double damage? Right now you can add a mod that reduce noise level by 100%. I think it makes your weapon have no sound and thus doesn't alert enemies.

There is also no bonus to go stealth in this game. You just get less kills, EXP, mods and rewards for doing so.

 

 

Rule of cool does actually play a bit of a role here, that plus if they did implement this system the less mods point you made would be kind of moot. Also stealth is an options just like only using a melee weapon on a map, so even if they aren't explictily rewarding the play style it's a nice change of pace once in a while even if it's ultimately inefficent. Also the mod just removes the sound from the gun, it's doesn't actually add a supressor to the barrel.

 

Also you could very easily add slots to the thrown weapons, like for example you could modify their contruction (Heavier kunai that do more damage but have a more noticable arc, etc), coat them with poisons/chemicals (To add elemental effects), modify blade types (Dull blades for more impact damage, etc).

Edited January 21, 2014 by Basilisk1991

[theGreatZamboni]

I have read most of it. Still it doesn't change the fact that you said Tigris would be the masters of CC. What about Flamethrower? What about Synapse? What about Penta which can wipe out a lot of enemies relatively closely to you?

 

Also in the first post you brought up that weapons had different amount of slots. Then comes Dual Vasto with 12 whole slots. They could equip so many good mods compared to Acrid which just gets 2 slots. It makes Acrid even more useless.

 

Even now Vasto is kinda powerful with the right mods and you're gonna get 4 more. Why would anyone bother to use Kunais or Despairs after that because they have no slots. Or bother with pistols that have less slots than Vasto?

 

 

Actually taking a look at the Attachments you've suggested I can point out the most powerful ones.

 

Cores: Critical Damage, They are by default just going to increase your main attack damage. They will work well vs every faction and there is no telling how much Critical percent activation they get. But if you can rely on them it's bound to be high.

 

Magazine: Critical Rounds once again. The more critical the better.

 

Barrel: Split Chamber 100% of the time. You double your damage output and with Serration type mods gone this is the next best thing.

 

Underbarrel: Not knowing what Flashlight, Grip and Laser sight actually do the obvious choice would be Ammo Storage.

 

Accessory: Scopes? uuuum no. Then we only got Weapon specific attachment option left.

 

So honestly, your version is far far more limited than it is now. Also you've yet to comment the whole part about Rhino being a tank and Nova killing everything because she will potentially deal the highest damage of all units.

 

Try to at least counter some of these stuff because you're not giving much information about the new mod system and how it will magically improve the game.

 

Why would you bother with a silencer when you can a multi shot attachment for double damage? Right now you can add a mod that reduce noise level by 100%. I think it makes your weapon have no sound and thus doesn't alert enemies.

There is also no bonus to go stealth in this game. You just get less kills, EXP, mods and rewards for doing so.

 

You are taking everything I say literally. Which is an issue. The other issue, which is a pattern in other threads, is you are finding faults where none should exist. "Stealth is unviable and dumb". Well then you missed the part where this is an idea that lays the ground work for the better game modes, AI and context that I mention repeatedly. You are completely ignoring other aspects of the idea that would render your "issues", non-issues. Just like so many others, you are not taking into account the entire body of text. This is a not a debate, attacking one aspect of an argument while ignoring the thousands of words that came before it just makes you look inept. If you do not like my ideas, that is fine. I have taken your criticisms into account and formed my own conclusions of where you are coming from.

Edited January 21, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[LtZefar]

You are taking everything I say literally. Which is an issue. The other issue, which is a pattern in other threads, is you are finding faults where none should exist. "Stealth is unviable and dumb". Well then you missed the part where this is an idea that lays the ground work for the better game modes, AI and context that I mention repeatedly. You are completely ignoring other aspects of the idea that would render your "issues", non-issues. Just like so many others, you are not taking into account the entire body of text. This is a not a debate, attacking one aspect of an argument while ignoring the thousands of words that came before it just makes you look inept. If you do not like my ideas, that is fine. I have taken your criticisms into account and formed my own conclusions of where you are coming from.

In short, I've poked so many holes in your idea that you're unable to counter a single things I've said.

 

Also if Dual Vasto have 12 slots should I just assume you mean 7 then? Because I'm taking it "too literally". 

 

I don't need to read the ENTIRE bloody post when I've found faults in most parts of it. You just do a whole lot of talking without backing it up with any kind of proof. 

You are the one here who is ignoring things people say.

 

This idea will not work. It's too drastic, removes too much and has very little promise of being good. 

[theGreatZamboni]

In short, I've poked so many holes in your idea that you're unable to counter a single things I've said.

 

Also if Dual Vasto have 12 slots should I just assume you mean 7 then? Because I'm taking it "too literally". 

 

I don't need to read the ENTIRE bloody post when I've found faults in most parts of it. You just do a whole lot of talking without backing it up with any kind of proof. 

You are the one here who is ignoring things people say.

 

This idea will not work. It's too drastic, removes too much and has very little promise of being good. 

 

*Tips fedora* You caught me, you are truly enlightened.

[Starender]

Nice ! +1

[Yousho]

On something of a side note: I don't fully support the idea of the mod card system going away.
Don't get me wrong, I think your ideas are excellent, but I think mods could and should still have a place were your ideas to be implemented, for instance mods like Master Thief, Enemy Sense, Maglev and MAYBE Handspring – although that may have too much of a game impact - should still have a place, essentially fun, cosmetic or minimal impact flavour mod cards would be a great thing to still have in the game.
I would also say it would be perfectly acceptable for such mods to drop as they do now, entirely RNG and from specific enemies, since they aren't 'must have' mods; they are simply flavour mods that would make for nice surprises and a coolness factor.

To give a better idea here are some examples:

-A mod that makes you have a similar particle effect to the stalker
-A mod that increases gore / makes you always mutilate enemies
-A mod that makes enemies fly Backwards, similar to the bow or Boltor, when killed.
-Mods that increase the cosmetics of bullets and impact particle effects
-Mods that make you appear corrupted.
-Mods that change arrow / bolt models / gives them particle effects.
-Mods that give you a 'ninja Trail' (temporary faded images of yourself behind you) when sprinting.
-A mod that makes you undetectable while hacking.
-A mod that removes physics from your Syandana

Things like that I feel would make a great mod card system.


Anyway, your ideas are genuinely well thought out and interesting, I can foresee perhaps a few problems though:

---What will happen to the mods we already have? If someone has farmed and farmed to get their Lethal Torrent, will it just vanish? Refunding in terms of credits will be a cop-out and refunding in terms of platinum will loose DE a LOT of money for a LONG time since every person in the game will receive platinum...

---Wont there still be a similar problem, where one damage type is simply better than the rest - for example Viral – so guns that can achieve this will almost always be configured to do so, ones that can do so more easily by virtue of having inherent elemental damage – such as the Acrid – will be more powerful while guns that, for whatever reason, cannot achieve this will rarely be used?
   Maybe this could be solved simply by messing with the base statistics, but then you run into a situation where guns that can achieve the dominant damage type - let's call it 'Type-A'- more easily must have their base statistics lowered to account for that thereby making it necessary for them to have a configuration that yields Type-A damage to do comparable, balanced damage.
   On the other hand guns that are have a harder or even impossible time achieving Type-A damage would have to have higher base statistics, making them do viable damage from the get-go and allowing them more flexibility as they aren't shoehorned into using specific attachments, since they are balanced around never being able to achieve the dominant damage type, making them the decidedly better options.
   Either you have one set of guns being dominant because they can easily achieve Type-A damage, or the other set being dominant because they you've nerfed the guns that can easily achieve Type-A damage to compensate for it being the dominant damage type, thus making it compulsory for them to do so to have on par damage and taking away choice, thereby giving the other guns both on par damage and the freedom to equip whatever attachments the player wishes.
   Basically, as-long as you have a dominant damage type and guns that can more easily achieve that damage type you either have to have it be necessary for them to achieve it, or have them have the potential to be OP.
The only way I can see around this is to fix the whole damage system so that one type is not dominant, but how different can they be without one coming out on top?


Other than that I think I have no real problems with what you've suggested.
Good job.

 

[Yousho]

I don't need to read the ENTIRE bloody post when I've found faults in most parts of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

[OptimumBow0]

Bump.

 

I want an attachment system now,

[WubbaDubDub]

With this system the frequent release of new weapons could actually be exciting, instead of being met with contempt. Because with new releases means new styles of play. Guns actually become real content and not just another weapon to slap Serration on. When you level your gun, you become excited about how more powerful if has become and not over how many more mods you can equip.

 

I've read your introduction post and loved it. This I love too. I'm looking forward to reading your other threads.

 

DE, give this man a job!

 

+1

[r110platinum]

It sounds like a fun idea, but I think it's too late into the life cycle of the game to implement this. Where would all of the mods people have farmed and spent money on go?

 

The attachments also brings up a different point. Would there be different levels of attachments, like Ice core lvl 1,2,3,4,5, etc? Because it brings up the issue of enemy levels and scaling. Would you rank up attachments like you would mods?

 

I do like the idea though, having only a limited number of slots on a gun (like core, barrel, stock, etc.) would force you to make more important choices, and would really change the behavior of the gun depending on how you outfitted it, and having the gun change as you level it seems interesting. I'm afraid its just too late to implement something like this, and even if DE would try to do this, the overhaul would take ages to do.

 

And I totally agree with how a majority of the weapons available are just junk. There's a handful of weapons that are useful, and that's it.

Edited June 27, 2014 by r110platinum

[_Chaser]

but what if the point is to distract players from actual flawed gameplay by making them collecting mods?

[MultimediaCarl]

*shrug*.. i mean yea *slowclap*

Im fully in on this, but i fear this would be a way to big a overhaul to the game, and would likely never see the light of day.

 

It would add such an amazingly new diversity to the current pale/boring gun grind, where only a select few are actually useful.

But this wont happen :/ Atleast not in the next year or more.

 

+1

[00zau]

Rule of cool does actually play a bit of a role here, that plus if they did implement this system the less mods point you made would be kind of moot. Also stealth is an options just like only using a melee weapon on a map, so even if they aren't explictily rewarding the play style it's a nice change of pace once in a while even if it's ultimately inefficent. Also the mod just removes the sound from the gun, it's doesn't actually add a supressor to the barrel.

 

Also you could very easily add slots to the thrown weapons, like for example you could modify their contruction (Heavier kunai that do more damage but have a more noticable arc, etc), coat them with poisons/chemicals (To add elemental effects), modify blade types (Dull blades for more impact damage, etc).

Rule of cool is always an option, but it doesn't come into play in your "strictly better, muh deeeps" scenario. Basically, you're telling people to pick between Hush and Split Chamber, and for anyone who is focusing on "muh deeps" they're going to use SC 100% of the time. The people who would actually use the silencer attachments already use mods like Hush. This would actually reduce diversity somewhat, imo, because it forces a stricter choice, between SC and Hush. I've used Hush a couple of times (like for the new rescue missions) because I could trade a low priority mod for it; I'm not giving up SC for it. The new system would make my less likely to use an already underused 'mod'.

 

I feel like an accessory system, in general, will result in this in a lot of ways. Every accessory has a smaller pool of 'mods' to compete with, which will just make the top choice even more apparent. It's also overall a more complicated system that aims to fix a simple problem. The simpler solution (which has been suggested before) is to make the essential mods (serration, SC, etc) part of the gun, freeing up the mod slots for utility. I don't fully agree with that, either. What I think should be done is something like aura/stance slots. Each weapon would have 1-2, maybe 4, slots specifically for utility mods that are currently underused. Basically, don't try to make damage and utility mods compete, because damage will win every time (regardless of if it's mods or attachments). Instead, give people some customization options with no damage available. Pick Fast Hands or Ammo Drum or Magazine Warp or Hush. That's not a false choice, and it allows players to customize their guns since they're all more or less equally viable options. Even if one of them is better from a "muh deeps" perspective, using another one isn't going to 100% gimp you like not bringing serration or split chamber would.

[Demon093]

I wanted to ask about the melee weapons, I read your introduction about the stances (tempest, the different strikes) But would Melee have attachments? Similar to the Gun? Or would it be tied to the Warframe system as per mentioned in your intro thread? Because otherwise the power of the melee would be lacking. And if there are attachments planned, what would they be?

Thanks!

[LasersGoPewPew]

they'd have to cap the enemy levels in order for the max trained guns to maintain their effectiveness but frankly the entire OP would be alot better than the current "rainbow bullets" strategy. i like it, +1 to you OP.

[Sasquatchias]

Question, but how would scaling work with the Kunai/Hikou/other un-customizable weapons? 

 

I probably missed something, but it seems like balancing would be an issue because of the scaling content since I'm assuming the stats won't be customizable as well.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I support you, but only if you change the name to something else. The name "attachment" doesn't seem fitting (can't really explain it, just causing cognitive dissonance for some reason). Also, I don't think the devs will look at this because they'll think that they've seen it before (the first few paragraphs are pretty similar to your other post)