Penta Is Mocking Me.

[ReiganCross]

I can't shake this feeling. I'm one of the dudes that have been crying out for some kind of Grenade system that implement game depth by increasing player agency with additional options to him, in a variety of grenades that the player could choose in addition to his regular Loadout. (Keyword: Addition)

 

I remember having my fantasies crushed to a dust while i heard the argument that "Grenades are not Ninja" which is about the poorest argument one could have against having Grenades in the game. The argument came along with "Powers does not go well with Grenades" so it was easier to swallow...

 

Then here comes PENTA! Y'know what, i actually like using this gun, it's actually fun (although it shares the Ogris's "problem" with ammo)... But i can't help but HATE IT, AND EVERYTHING IT REPRESENTS! And it doesn't help that it came along right after Valkyr and it's Ripline, another frame that i hate because it basically took a power i liked as a hostage to Valkyr, instead of the FEATURE they were talking about.

 

I'm not gonna expand the topic alone while DE just brushed it aside like every bad comment they get in there and pretend it's not even real. So i'm just gonna finish it here. Keep on streamlining it, DE...

[Azure_Kytia]

So... You like it, but don't? Is it because it feels too strong? Too weak? Unexpected mechanics? Just feels wrong?

How is something fun to use yet hated? I'd like an explanation as to why, at the very least ;A;

Edited December 27, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[-CM-Syein]

I don't quite get what you saying, what is it that you hate and like and why. etc. And this is your personal issue problem that most players won't complain about, I don't see how DE should react to this either. 

[DFDelta]

I think what he is talking about is that it takes something that would have made a nice seperate game mechanic (grenades) and puts it into a single weapon. (Thus possibly barring it from ever becomming a seperate mechanic)

 

Same with his Valkyr example.

Grappling hooks would have been quite an awesome game mechanic in general, but instead of hooks for everyone we get ripline on a single frame.

[ReiganCross]

I though this would be pretty self-explanatory... They have said, for a YEAR that Grenades in this game is a no-go (And i had accepted it! I was contempt on never throwing a Grenade ever.) ... THEN THEY GIVE US 540 GRENADES IN A GUN!!... But yet no real Grenades, only a Grenade Gun...

 

So this is basically DE taunting us: "You want Grenades? You want Grenades?! Here's your Grenades, you bastard! Oh, what's that, you wanted a new system for them? Sure, let me incorporate a new one... IN YOUR GUN!..."

 

Next thing you know, we'll have a "Diplomacy Stick" or a "Lore Gun"... *cough*codex*cough*

Edited December 27, 2013 by ReiganCross

[ReiganCross]

I think what he is talking about is that it takes something that would have made a nice seperate game mechanic (grenades) and puts it into a single weapon. (Thus possibly barring it from ever becomming a seperate mechanic)

 

Same with his Valkyr example.

Grappling hooks would have been quite an awesome game mechanic in general, but instead of hooks for everyone we get ripline on a single frame.

 

Perfectly put, my friend. That is EXACTLY my problem with DE now.

[Azure_Kytia]

Well, you worded it quite weirdly, and skirted around what you were actually trying to say.

On-Topic, though, I do agree. I guess DE has an issue with giving the player up to 4 damaging weapons, so they made it into a gun, because reasons? Same could be said for Ogris I suppose, it does the same thing as the penta for a quarter of the fun.

 

Valkyr was a pretty cheap move too, but you know. Shouldn't not be expecting these things by now, dude.
 

Edited December 27, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[ReiganCross]

Well, you worded it quite weirdly, and skirted around what you were actually trying to say.

On-Topic, though, I guess DE has an issue with giving the player up to 4 damaging weapons, so they made it into a gun? Same could be said for Ogris I suppose. I do agree, though. Valkyr was a pretty cheap move too, but you know. Shouldn't not be expecting these things by now, dude.

 

 

Yes, i'm not expecting much from them for now on... Much truth was said there.

 

Hell, i half expect that, if i complain about the Penta Launcher (As in, the launcher, instead of the grenades) itself being useless since the throw distance itself is the same as when Vauban throws something, then they'll solve it BY HAVING A MOD! So because I think that the throw distance is actually pretty broken because that would mean that the Penta Launcher is actually doing absolutely nothing my arms could not do, then they think that i should solve the problem by putting a mod into it, instead of FIXING THE DAMN GUN so it actually works as a LAUNCHER!

 

Although that's a moot point. If i had my way, i'd take the Penta off the market, off everyone's Arsenal and never speak of it again! I'm not saying that the gun is not cool, like i said, the remote detonation of 5 grenades is actually pretty fun to do, the grenades themselves also works amazingly well and i was impressed by the fact that the Evolution Engine CAN handle bouncing projectiles. But the mere PRESENCE of Penta just is there to remind me that they'll never actually make Grenades into an actual game mechanic (And that's where the mocking comes from. It's just dancing in my face saying "You'll never have grenades!! Ha-Ha!")

[USIncorp]

If DE, or grappling hooks to every frame, what would be the point of mobility skills? What would be the point of the free running mechanics? There's a very valid reason why it was only given to Valkyr, and also why DE is probably not going to release jetpacks for every frame to use.

 

Get over yourself, stop whining, if you want grenades, use the Penta and Vauban, and if you want Ripline, use Valkyr.

Simple

As

That

[ReiganCross]

If DE, or grappling hooks to every frame, what would be the point of mobility skills? What would be the point of the free running mechanics? There's a very valid reason why it was only given to Valkyr, and also why DE is probably not going to release jetpacks for every frame to use.

 

Get over yourself, stop whining, if you want grenades, use the Penta and Vauban, and if you want Ripline, use Valkyr.

Simple

As

That

 

And maybe Excalibur will be the only one that can use Swords... Frost is would be the only one that can use Ice Mods... Ash is the only frame that can do Stealth Kills and Volt is the only frame that can Wallrun...

 

Seems like a good idea, eh?

[Archistopheles]

I though this would be pretty self-explanatory... They have said, for a YEAR that Grenades in this game is a no-go (And i had accepted it! I was contempt on never throwing a Grenade ever.) ... THEN THEY GIVE US 540 GRENADES IN A GUN!!... But yet no real Grenades, only a Grenade Gun...

 

So this is basically DE taunting us: "You want Grenades? You want Grenades?! Here's your Grenades, you bastard! Oh, what's that, you wanted a new system for them? Sure, let me incorporate a new one... IN YOUR GUN!..."

 

[ReiganCross]

Except that grappling hooks are not a core mechanic in the slightest, and would completely destroy the differences in mobility between Frames by making mobility boosts completely pointless. All of the things that you listed are core mechanics of the game. Stop being intentionally stupid; it doesn't make you look like anything except stupid.

 

Core Mechanics.... You keep using that word.... I don't think it means what you think it means... In fact, i KNOW it doesn't mean what you think it means... See, a "Core Mechanic" is something that "defines the game"... The only 2 things that defines this whole game right now is "Running" (As in walking around) and "Shooting" (As in, shooting your gun), with arguably a side of "Striking" (With your melee weapons)... You probably don't remember the times when we didn't HAD Wallrunning, and stuff like "Super Jump" was quite the utillity power because it allowed us to do stuff that we, right now, can do quite easily with the Wallrunning mechanic.

 

So if you really think stuff like STEALTH KILL is a CORE MECHANIC of this game... Then don't pretend you know more about this game then anyone else. (Especially don't call anyone stupid with such a broken argument.)

 

 

Holy mother, is like seeing a image that perfectly defines what i think of the Penta right now... So much... Hurt...

Edited December 27, 2013 by ReiganCross

[Archistopheles]

Holy mother, is like seeing a image that perfectly defines what i think of the Penta right now... So much... Hurt...

 

I'm a feelings sniper.

 

Boom. Headshot :)

[Soluh]

From my perspective, the main reason we don't have grenades as an extra "slot" is that there are enough things you can do without them.
you have 2 guns, melee and abilities.

Another thing, you only got frustrated when the Penta was released? what about the Torid? that sure seems very grenade like to me.
And also: imagine if you had grenades as well as everything you already do, what button would they go on? not to mention how would PS4 players use them?

 

Also if the grappling hook was available to all frames, then wallrunning, one of the more important mechanics in game would be redundant.
And once again, what button would that go on?

[ReiganCross]

From my perspective, the main reason we don't have grenades as an extra "slot" is that there are enough things you can do without them.

you have 2 guns, melee and abilities.

Another thing, you only got frustrated when the Penta was released? what about the Torid? that sure seems very grenade like to me.

And also: imagine if you had grenades as well as everything you already do, what button would they go on? not to mention how would PS4 players use them?

 

Also if the grappling hook was available to all frames, then wallrunning, one of the more important mechanics in game would be redundant.

And once again, what button would that go on?

 

I swear, i tried not to touch the Torid because i try to equally forget it exists as well... It's the very same problem, it's a launcher that doesn't really launch anything and ends up throwing a poison grenades. You're right, the Torid causes the same problems as the Penta. The problem is that i though that the Torid was like the token effort to make grenades, but because they can't figure out the whole bounce thing, then they made it explode like a water balloon of poison gas. Sooo i kind of swallowed that like a hard pill. Same thing with Ogrid, i just figured that they had problems with the Engine to make an actual Grenade. When the Penta came out... Well, then it's just a matter of figuring out a new way of pulling off grenade, isn't it?... They figured something out for the damn Lore Gun (Scanner), why the hell can't they figure out something for a Grenade toss? There are so many ways to go around this. Press 5, use gear slots, make a different motion on the PS4 touchpad or just use the motion detection to toss it! Use your imagination, there are ways out of this, some pretty good ones too. (The best one i can thik of is taking out mouse-scrolling off powers and use it to toss and select grenades.)

 

And breaking Wall-Run would not be such a huge problem, since Wallrun itself already broke a good amount of old mechanic and so broke so much level design that they had to alter some tiles to un-do the need for Wallrun because the dude could just catapult to another catwalk. Wallrun already broke things, Grapple Hook would just break it further, and the we'd need another fix and go on the cycle of having better movement options (I say options because, maybe, you could have S#&$ty wallrun and good grappling hook abilities, or the other.) But you know what?... Fine, Grappling Hook breaks the whole game like a wrench in an airbus turbine, sure, i don't really care because this is not the topic for that discussion.

Edited December 27, 2013 by ReiganCross

[ReiganCross]

I'd rather have grenades than the current melee actually.

Word.... They're making Melee equipable anyways, so might as well...

[Skarmax]

I can't shake this feeling. I'm one of the dudes that have been crying out for some kind of Grenade system that implement game depth by increasing player agency with additional options to him, in a variety of grenades that the player could choose in addition to his regular Loadout. (Keyword: Addition)

 

I remember having my fantasies crushed to a dust while i heard the argument that "Grenades are not Ninja" which is about the poorest argument one could have against having Grenades in the game. The argument came along with "Powers does not go well with Grenades" so it was easier to swallow...

 

Then here comes PENTA! Y'know what, i actually like using this gun, it's actually fun (although it shares the Ogris's "problem" with ammo)... But i can't help but HATE IT, AND EVERYTHING IT REPRESENTS! And it doesn't help that it came along right after Valkyr and it's Ripline, another frame that i hate because it basically took a power i liked as a hostage to Valkyr, instead of the FEATURE they were talking about.

 

I'm not gonna expand the topic alone while DE just brushed it aside like every bad comment they get in there and pretend it's not even real. So i'm just gonna finish here. Keep on streamlining it, DE...

it's a CORPUS weapon, Tenno still don't use grenades /problem_solved

[ReiganCross]

it's a CORPUS weapon, Tenno still don't use grenades /problem_solved

 

Huh... Surprisingly best argument ever... Since Tenno don't use Grenade, Tenno don't use the Penta as well...

 

Hence, it will vanish from our inventory, market and everyone will be happy. (It will be like the Dera.)

Edited December 28, 2013 by ReiganCross

[Volthorne]

Also if the grappling hook was available to all frames, then wallrunning, one of the more important mechanics in game would be redundant.

And once again, what button would that go on?

You actually LIKE wall-running? I hate it. It activates at weird times and flings me across the room into a trio of Heavy Gunners or Napalms or Ancients. Plus there's basically nowhere you can go with wall-running that can't be gotten to with jump-slides. Except some of those Void treasure rooms, but no one goes there anyway.

 

TL;DR: Wall-running is an extraneous feature that goes unused 99% of the time because it sucks. "Core/important mechanic" my &#!.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Volthorne

[Soluh]

Yes, I do enjoy it, there are a few tiles where i've figured out neat wallrun jumps that save time, it can feel a bit janky at times, but overall it's pretty fun.
By "wallrunning" I meant upwards wallruns/vaulting/etc. as well as horizontal wallrunning.

I won't deny that most of the tiles are not exactly well designed for it, with ribbed walls etc. but it is still very "ninja" and that's what the game is going for.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Soluh

[Skarmax]

Huh... Surprisingly best argument ever... Since Tenno don't use Grenade, Tenno don't use the Penta as well...

 

Hence, it will vanish from our inventory, market and everyone will be happy. (It will be like the Dera.)

if you dont like it, dont use it. If "the pain" is so strong, uninstall Warframe and go cry elsewhere. A lot of people like Penta (me included) and taking a weapon out of game because like 0,0001% of players don't like it is stupid

[ReiganCross]

 

Thank you for showing me the error of my ways. From now on, I will stop acting under the false assumption that melee attacks are a core mechanic, for I was blinded by the developers' deceit, with their "dedicated melee slot" and something as silly as their theme, and the erroneous way that melee weapons are the most common weapon type. Foolish me for thinking that melee was actually a core mechanic, for I am a fool!

 

And modding your damage types! Why, I have made the most terrible mistake of thinking that the unrestricted mod system was fundamental to the game. I'm so sorry for this; I didn't know before! Clearly, the mod system should be restricted because the developers have clearly shown that you should only ever deal damage based on the attributes of your Frame, and your weapons should never cover your weaknesses, but should instead accentuate your strength, for this betters the co-op experience!

 

And that whole "freedom-of-movement" thing? Nonsense! Few Frames should ever need to wallrun, because there isn't a single place you can't go without it! It adds to your mobility, sure, but nobody except for Volt actually uses wallruns, right?

 

Right?

 

(And, sarcasm aside, DE has made statements declaring that they *do* want stealth to be a viable and major mechanic, so yes, stealth kills are a core mechanic, they just need a lot of work, and DE has acknowledged this.)

 

All of that is actually arguable... Quality can be used to debate wether something is important in the game or not. For example, once can point out that, albeit there are a LOT of Melee weapons, about 80% of them are absolutely worthless because they are less effective then most primary and secondary weapon. Also, Developer's "intention" is worthless when defining a final product, i could make a whole game meant to talk about the political issues of ancient china and i could end up making a first person shooter.

 

But anyways, debatable. All i'm saying is that you should not just assume that some of the melee weapon selection could not be bound to a single warframe, such as only allowing Bows to be used by Banshee and her male counterpart. Maybe only the stealthy frames can use the Daggers or only the bigger frames can use Heavy Weapons. The advent of Stealth Kill could also have become a skill by a single frame that they decided to actually make into a feature, it could have become something like "Only Loki can do Stealth Kills", and then they change his Radial Disarm into some kind of Stealth Insta-Kill that can one-hit bosses or something.

 

They didn't do that because Stealth Kill is important to the game, it adds a new depth and some (albeit mostly cosmetic) reason to play it stealthy, but you know what's also important to add to the broken mobility that is Wallrun?... A GRAPPLING HOOK!... And not the one that Valkyr have, that one actually works horribly. I mean a grappling hook Batman Arkham style. It can become even better, instead of snapping to a ledge or something it can rush you into a wall and snap you into a Wallrun to said ledge.

 

But again, all of this is sidetracking the issue at hands... Grenades... The big creativity leftover that is the Penta for those that wanted grenades in some kind of "grenade" slot. And i'm not talking only about explosive grenades, i'm talking about stuff like Chaff Grenades, EMP Grenades, Smoke Bombs, C4 Explosives, Landmines, Claymore Bombs, Flashbang Grenades, Caltrops, maybe even go creative and make those items into a step beyond with some deployable cover, instant launch pad and some kind of portable turrets (Although maybe those last ones would go too far into powers territory.)

 

The fact that they have the Penta here undermindes every argument we've had so far that "Grenades are not fit to be in this game."... If you ever wanted to prove that Grenades would be better then power damage output then the Penta got you covered, because that damn thing can clear 3 rooms in a single press of a button. That thing is a constant walking Ultimate, even better because you can mod that damn bastard to become way more powerful then your Warframe, without needing to mod yourself with Shields or Energy Efficiency. The ONLY argument that still stands against grenades after is that it would be hard to implement into your command without doing some kind of mouse acrobacy like Blocking or some kind of contrived placeholder command like Gear Slot Hotkey. Offcurse, there ARE ways around this, very good ones that have been listed in this post by other people then myself, so this is a relatively poor excuse not to give us some damn Grenades already but is actually acceptable.

 

What's not acceptable is DE not willing to give us another layer of depth into the game. Now, let me remind you that this is all personal opinion. They can start making a single-player campaign for Warframe in the same note then Ride to Hell: Retribution for all i know, i hope they don't do this but i'm not exactly the voice of supreme right when it comes to their own design. But i really don't like the idea of them just plain refusing to give us those new features. I don't agree with it, i don't have to like it, and i feel taunted when they give me something "Close" to what i want without it really being what i wanted.

Edited December 29, 2013 by ReiganCross

[TankHunter678]

 

But again, all of this is sidetracking the issue at hands... Grenades... The big creativity leftover that is the Penta for those that wanted grenades in some kind of "grenade" slot. And i'm not talking only about explosive grenades, i'm talking about stuff like Chaff Grenades, EMP Grenades, Smoke Bombs, C4 Explosives, Landmines, Claymore Bombs, Flashbang Grenades, Caltrops, maybe even go creative and make those items into a step beyond with some deployable cover, instant launch pad and some kind of portable turrets (Although maybe those last ones would go too far into powers territory.)

Chaff grenades? They would be useless in warframe since chaff would only work against electronic targets that require constant communication wirelessly to function. Which is nothing since everything corpus works on its own independent AI or is hardlined.

 

Smoke Bombs? Well, you would have to go rename one of Ash's abilities. Also throwing out a little handwavium lore wise the Grineer and Corpus could use thermal and electromagnetic imaging sensors to easily bypass a smoke cloud. It is one of the things I would do if I am part of a rich merchant super-conglomerate and need to outfit my combat units against intruders or the general of an army of clone troopers.

 

C4 explosives? You would have to design the maps in such a way you are required. Otherwise you waste time setting that C4 up while your allies have already rushed ahead to the point everything in the room is already dead from normal weapons fire or ability spam.

 

Landmines? Would take to long to setup to be worth it beyond the first wave of defense. When you can have people with Ogris on overwatch killing things as they spawn.

 

Flashbang Grenades? Useless on Corpus, and would be useless against Grineer. Pulling out the handwavium again the Grineer would already be equipped for that eventuality, the Corpus lore wise rely on independent AI proxies.

 

Caltrops? Would not work by sheer fact that everything is either armored up to the point they would not even notice they got something stuck in their boots, would be immune to them by sheer fact they are robots, or attached to a hive mind and is immune to pain.

 

The only one of those ideas that actually work would be EMP grenades, which when handwavium would apply if the corpus are half as intelligent as they make themselves out to be would have some shielding to reduce the effects of EMP and Grineer equipment would not really be hampered by it much.

 

As for the other ideas...

 

Deployable Cover? Frost's Snowglobe, Volt's Electric Shield.

Launch pad? Vauban's Bounce, Nova's Wormhole.

Portable Turret? Vauban's Tesla.

 

They probably have been against the idea of a grenade slot because then people would put forth a bunch of ideas for grenades to fill out that slot, when the majority of ideas would not really work, or would render the Vauban frame pointless. As all the good grenade ideas are shoved onto him.

 

When it comes to the penta though, well they could always put out some playstyle mods for it. Cluster grenades, Sticky Grenades, Proximity grenades being some of them.

 

I do not know where you get the idea the Ogris is a grenade launcher, the thing is a rocket launcher.

 

 

I will be honest though, I do not see how grenades would add on "another layer of depth" when I can just walk into a room, hit 4, walk out of the room with everything dead. Or just keep walking on as I gun through everything in a line with punch through mods installed.

[ReiganCross]

-snip-

 

Ok, you do know that all of those option have a lot of "Hi-Tech Magic" to work as intended by gameplay, right?... Mainly because you don't KNOW that the Corpus don't work on an overall wireless comunication, you don't KNOW, you don't KNOW if the Grineer and Corpus don't already use thermal imaging and the smoke is some kind of thermal cloaking smoke and whatnot. Really we know absolutely nothing about this game and they design this thing really, really wierdly, as in we have to assume that Grineer are immune to the vaccum of space but CAN be poisoned by torid clouds, just as well as MOAs and Shield Osprey. (While you're at it, think of C4 as the Sticky Bomb in GTAV, that you can sometimes throw at slow-moving targets and blow them up in the distance.) (And since i'm clearing the ideas, Caltrops could be some kind of Laser Electric Spike, DE is not above using pseudo-"ninja"-science to justify their items. And you can just throw down landmines that set themselves up to explode after about 2 secs just fine.)

 

As for Deployable Cover (As in, Deployable Wall, not Forcefield), Lauch Pad and Portable Turret... You can figure out lesser effects as to not over-shadow the powers... But yes i admit, those ideas thread dangerously close to powers, might not be good ideas at all. The rest? Works just fine.

 

And maybe you can't see the potential of designing the game with those mechanics in mind such as an enemy that won't take damage from the front unless you electrocute him or trip him with some kind of bolas or net bomb. Just be creative. Especially because, if the game is supposed to be good, 4 is not supposed to just kill the room. (Although you do have a point, nearly all depth is pointless when you have such an over-powered solution to it all. I'm not talking grenades, i'm talking stuff like melee and any other power.)

 

And Mods exclusive to the Penta?... Well, i'll just commence a separate rant here: DE's style of shoving every solution they want into their broken-&#! mod system just piss me the hell off! "Don't like this? Here's a S#&$ty-&#! mod that solves 5% of your problem!" "Oh, you want that? Here, let me make a mod for something i already have to make you happy!". It's like they're dancing around the issue! I don't want frigging Penta Mods, i want ACTUAL DAMN GRENADES! So don't you dare come up with "Penta Cluster Mod" and " Penta Incendiary Mod" when you could just make "Cluster Grenades" and "Incendiary Grenades" damn it!

[Tsukinoki]

@ReiganCross
The reason DE wont make grenades like your hoping is that abilities fill the same exact roles as your grenades would.

Why play Excalibur if any frame with more utility can use flashbangs and outdo your radial blind?
Why play Frost or Volt if any frame can put up a deployable wall?
Why play Ember if anyone can use a grenade to create a lasting AOE fire damage spot?

The problem with the grenades that you want is that they would replace quite a few abilities.

DE has stated repeatedly that they wont include grenades because they fill the same slot that abilities currently do.
Radial damage?  We have that.
All that utility?  We have that across multiple frames.
There is no place for grenades in this system, unless like the penta they are dumb grenades that only deal radial damage.
Otherwise they encroach on abilities far too much.