Nerf The Vanguard Rhino Helm

[taiiat]

"Space ninjas" sounds cool and all, but as an actual Japanese guy, what we have here is hardly space ninjas. :P

Spruce Ninjas 2014

 

i had to calm things down a bit.

[Ronyn]

well, by the fact that he has the most health/shields/second in armor, and because he has iron skin, he is really tanky. but he also has CC with rhino stomp, and buffs with roar.

 

does he really need too to be that fast? he should be the slowest frame.

Being strong, resilient and fast is one heck of a combination for sure...

but then the way several other frames frying groups of enemies at a decent distance with your 25 power point move is pretty awesome as well.

Folks, we need to look beyond this over sold viewpoint of what "tank" means and look at the way warframe actually plays out.

I've explained much of this in my posts already....

[Cwierz]

If the speed of the helm bothers you, you could . . . I don't know . . . maybe . . . not use it?

You never explained how it hurts you that other people get to use Vanguard helm.

Inb4 "that's what I said in original post."

Saying... "ef u den leik etz dun youse etz prablem solved1" doesn't fix anything at all, it just makes people ignore it. There is a problem, and you have not justified why it isn't a problem (look at my posts for my justification as to why it is).

 

 

Being strong, resilient and fast is one heck of a combination for sure...

but then the way several other frames frying groups of enemies at a decent distance with your 25 power point move is pretty awesome as well.

Folks, we need to look beyond this over sold viewpoint of what "tank" means and look at the way warframe actually plays out.

I've explained much of this in my posts already....

Its not just that, rhino has the best all around skill set. Period.

That skill you mentioned (I presume M Prime) is probably the most controversial skill in the game. You shouldn't use it to justify something.

 

The reason tanks are slow isn't because thats how it always is. There is a reason.

You have to have weaknesses to balance out positives, and with vanguard rhino has none. none.

I want you to tell me why it is okay for rhino to get that helmet when

a.) He is the only frame immune to CC

b.) He has the highest health/shield/armor combination

c.) He has the best skill set in the game that isn't OP or stupid

d.) With vanguard he becomes the third fastest warframe outspeeding ash of all things

e.) Has no weakness

 

Speed used to be his only weakness, and it perfectly balanced him. Now that isn't the case and he is unbalanced (balance is an inherently good thing. This is not up for debate. Do not make the mistake that the fun comes from imbalance.)

 

Either buff everything besides rhino + 0.25 movement speed, or remove the stats from alt helms.

 

Side note here, I do not agree with removing stamina. I agree with revamping everything movement. Our movement is to spinny for my tastes.

[Doppelgangerk]

DE is recently making all new helmet only cosmetic and without any states at all, they might going to remove all the states on the helmets and only make them cosmetic. 

[Ronyn]

Its not just that, rhino has the best all around skill set. Period.

That skill you mentioned (I presume M Prime) is probably the most controversial skill in the game. You shouldn't use it to justify something.

 

The reason tanks are slow isn't because thats how it always is. There is a reason.

You have to have weaknesses to balance out positives, and with vanguard rhino has none. none.

I want you to tell me why it is okay for rhino to get that helmet when

a.) He is the only frame immune to CC

b.) He has the highest health/shield/armor combination

c.) He has the best skill set in the game that isn't OP or stupid

d.) With vanguard he becomes the third fastest warframe outspeeding ash of all things

e.) Has no weakness

 

Speed used to be his only weakness, and it perfectly balanced him. Now that isn't the case and he is unbalanced 

1: Tanks are not always slow. That is simply not true.

2: The skill I mention wasnt M prime in particular. There are several powers that can do mass damage from long range.

Though power scaling and elemental resistances in warframe muddle that up quite a bit.

3: I have already explained why it is ok (IMO) for rhino to be fast in an earlier post.

 

As to your other statements...

a:) False. Valkyr is also and trinity has a limited amount of it. Plus the over reliance on enemy CC in warframe is worth its own discussion.

b.) Ok. He also has the most reason to be directly in an enemies without any true invulnerability to protect him.

c.) Huh? I thought you were saying Rhino is op currently....but I do kind of agree that his skill set is solid where as most others are flawed in some way.

d.) This is not a bullet point in itself. It is the thing we are discussing.

e.) It may be fair to say that he has no weakness it is also fair to say that other frames have some great strengths that he lacks.

 

To reiterate, I recently acquired the Vanguard Rhino Helm, and that thing has made me not enjoy my Excalibur and Valkyr (among others) except for their novelty because I clearly understand that I am not as efficient or as effective as a Vanguard Rhino.

 

To repeat in part what Cwierz has already argued, Rhino is the bulkiest of the warframes, he is completely immune to CC with Iron Skin, he has a Slash Dash clone with Rhino Charge, he has CC (also universally effective against bosses) and AoE damage with Rhino Stomp, and a party damage buff with Roar. Coupled with the Vanguard helm, Rhino is also purportedly tied for 3rd fastest warframe while recieving only a piddly -5% power strength that is hardly noticable; this means Rhino outruns at least 13 warframes as of writing (and he's not supposed to be a speedster) while also having the strongest possible kit that a tank/bruiser warframe could ever want.

 

All the warframes with the exception of Vanguard Rhino have clear tradeoffs to balance their powers.

* Excalibur: Well-balanced offense and mobility, but is consequently a jack of all trades and a master of none. Also only has average defenses since he's oriented towards DPS.

* Valkyr: All-in diving warframe with unparalleled armor and on-demand invulnerability, but has non-existant shields as a tradeoff.

* Frost/Saryn/Non-Vanguard Rhino (the tanks/bruisers): Has reduced movement speed to counteract their inherent tankiness and staying power.

* Trinity: Unparalleled staying power and sustain, but has almost nothing in the way of offense (her gimmicky 1-2 combo isn't counted here).

* Nyx/Volt/Mag/etc. (the casters): Has incredible AoE CC/clears and power reserves, but are frail and lends themselves more to the "glass cannon" archetype.

* Loki/Ash (the fragile speedsters): Has supreme movement speed and mobility, stealth, as well as chances for immense melee damage with the proper execution, but lacks hard defenses and has their skillset oriented towards trying to avoid as much enemy fire as possible.

I don't agree with your breakdown of the frames effectiveness.

 

Excalibur-Already talked about him. Part of his issue is a hilariously underdeveloped movement that should be integral to his mobility.

I also feel that the effects of radial blind should last longer.

 

Valkyr-I'm generally able to keep her ultimate active almost constantly in many of the game types I use her in.

Note- the invulnerability of her ult is based on time not a set amount of damage which means it is still effective even against super high level enemies who can pop rhinos iron skin in a couple hits.

 

Frost-because of snow globe he is WAY more effective at defending a point than rhino is. Frost is unparalleled for the role of guardian tank. 

this means his lower movement speed is not a real hindrance to the role he excels in and should be doing anyway.

Though I would add a lasting ground effect to Ice wave to add some additional staying presence to his skill set.

And speed up the projectile speed of freeze to make it more useful. I'd also add an aoe after effect from killing an enemy who is frozen.

 

Saryn- Seems to be meant to be an offensive frame with a mix of up close and caster type skills with a certain amount of elusiveness. 

Played well (and without bugs in the system), she is meant to keep the enemies that survive her onslaught attacking her shed skin and not her actual body. 

However some of her moves could use work. I'd like to see venom spread a heck of a lot more and contagion could last a lot longer...

Of course that brings us to how lackluster melee combat is in warframe-not just in how limited the moveset is but how staying close to enemies is generally undesirable without some form of CC immunity. This is a problem with the core combat model that needs to be one of the things adressed in Melee 2.0.

 

Trinity-Is great at what she is meant to do. Her lack of offense isn't necessarily a weakness by any means.

 

The casters-Like many class cannons will destroy or lock down mass groups of enemies before they can do much in response. In a straight out kill contest against challenging enemies they should leave rhino way back in the dust. Like frying a group of enemies from long range while rhino is still running toward them trying to get close enough for his powers to affect them. It should be brought up that one of the large drawbacks of the casters in warframes elemental resistances. Volts shock seems downright epic against corpus but still sucks against infested. This is an issue with the core combat model system itself.

Side note we have the stranger "casters" like Nyx who specializes in turning enemies on each other. That counts as both offense and defense btw.

And with her, there is no good reason why Psychic bolts are so weak!

 

Loki/Ash-Evasion through stealth and misdirection is a actually form of defense. Often more effective in high level missions where iron skin is easily broken with a couple enemy hits. Sidenote-banshee should be in this group as she is described to be "stealthy and ranged" but her power set is largely underwhelming and even contrary to its intent.

 

I'd also like to draw even more attention to the fact that Warframes over reliance on enemy CC and underdeveloped melee system makes the frames with a way to effectively fight up close seem all the more desirable. 

 

Much of what makes rhino seem so great is that do to iron skin he is able to ignore some pre-existing design flaws in the game.

Though, again, that seriously changes in high level missions where iron skin doesn't survive through much at all.

 

Which reminds of the wacky power scaling Warframe has right now...sigh.

[UncleWalrus]

I find it adorable that people bring up health pools.

In Warframe, health is irrelevant. If you're taking health damage, you're likely dead already.

 

 

The reason tanks are slow isn't because thats how it always is. There is a reason.

 

Blatantly false. The reason tanks are slow is because it's a trope. Like Dwarves having beards or Elves living in the woods.

As many have pointed out, Rhino's highly positional abilities make the Vanguard helm not only a desirable bonus for traversing levels, but potentially a necessity in catering to his positional playstyle. 

Frost can be slower because he doesn't need to position himself into a clump of enemies to make the best use of his damage negation.

As it's been previously hinted at, and since you're bringing up slow tanks, between his linear charge, the AoE CC with a (largely negligible) damage component, increased defensive capacities and CC ignore and team DPS buff, he's extremely akin to a Prot warrior from WoW, who, short of a mage spamming teleports, are pretty much the most maneuverable things in the game, again due to the highly positional nature of their abilities.

If you're making a game, you balance for gameplay, not for tropes.

 

As such, I'm hoping to finally get a Vanguard helm myself soon because I've lost count of how many times I've gotten to a teammate the second they've flopped over dead and had nothing to rez, or had a survival PUG fizzle at just under 35 minutes because I've not managed to poke the life support a second earlier.

 

 

Its not just that, rhino has the best all around skill set. Period.

 

Noooo, he doesn't. Rhino is great for soloing. And average for everything else.

Endgame, where the damage ward of Iron Skin is completely irrelevant and melts in two hits along with all your shields, any considerations one makes about the capabilities of a warframe outside of a certain team composition become moot, much like the Rhino:
Frost is an unparalleled tank due to being able to soak up functionally infinite damage plus having a good helping of CC, Trinity is a better tank because lol, full party invulnerability for half a minute, and damage return via Link, with energy regen and pseudo-cc as a nice bonus.
Vauban makes the Stomp's CC laughable.

Banshee's damage amp is almost an order of magnitude higher, and has some CC of her own.

Nyx has damage negation and massive damage spike outputs via Absorb and CC via her other abilities.

Nova can evaporate entire waves of enemies, as can Mag if they're Corpus.

Rhino Charge gets thrown out of builds at around lvl20.

So, yes. There are many frames that can do what a Rhino can far better, provided they're played right.

 

The only thing that makes Rhino interesting in late endgame is the CC immunity offered by Iron Skin worn under Blessing, combined with his versatile but middling skillset. Endgame Rhino is a piece of versatile filler, Vanguard or not, so you might as well make him faster and use being able to shrug off CC to retrieve life support, revive teammates or position himself to make the most of his abilities. He fits the Determinator trope best, if anything, instead of the immovable, unyielding obstacle, as I've yet to see a Rhine take a hit from a lvl50+ Corpus Sniper and live through it.

 

Lastly, while I agree that whenever I break my Rhino out I usually get highest damage done, lowest taken, most kills, etc, this is because I generally end up with the kind of people who use regular attacks on a Galatine instead of a charged swing because it looks cool, and while "Push 4, win gaem!1" might work with Rhino up to lvl30, higher level situations will leave him struggling.

 

 

In conclusion, I'd like to point out that Rhino being the go-to midgame frame isn't an inherent problem, but a symptom of poor design on DE's part. It's not that Rhines are OMGAMAZEBALLS, and perfect in every conceivable way like some desperately want to argue, it's that in a PUG their varied skillset ensure that they can always be useful in some way whereas an Excalibur, Ember, Saryn, Oberon or Valkyr have little to warrant interest.

The solution is not to nerf Rhino into the ground and make him as unplayable as the maligned Saryn, but give other warframes skills that make them useful. Accelerant is a good example, with its CC and specific damage amp component. Stomp itself is a prime example, being two middling skills rolled into a versatile one, and opening up a spot for Roar, which fills another role.

 

If DE wants to do something, is give other, less successful frames more utility, or fix damage scaling on primarily damage-dealing abilites.

[Inez]

You're clearly a troll, but whatever I'll take the bait just for the lulz.

 

Yes, I never explained how "it hurts you (me) that other people get to use Vanguard helm".

I also never even said anything about others' use of Vanguard reducing my enjoyment.

 

Since you have no reading comprehension, here's what I said in the OP:

 

 

To reiterate, I recently acquired the Vanguard Rhino Helm, and that thing has made me not enjoy my Excalibur and Valkyr (among others) except for their novelty because I clearly understand that I am not as efficient or as effective as a Vanguard Rhino.

I can read, its just that what you wrote failed at basic logic.

So your argument is that removing the alt helm will suddenly make Excalibur and Valkyr more fun to play? Do you read the stuff you write?

I think you're the troll here. Changing Rhino will not suddenly make you think "Wow, I enjoy Excalibur so much!"

If you think Rhino is OP, just say he's OP. There are lots of ways to balance Rhino in addition to taking away the helm.

People who also fail at basic logic made the same ridiculous arguments about Nova. They claimed that Nova obsoleted every frame in the game. That didn't happen either.

You either enjoy Excalibur and Valkyr or you don't. Changes to other warframes aren't going to change that. Personally, I love Exaclibur and dislike Valkyr, but it has absolutely nothing to do with some other warframe's alt helmet. I love Blind and Slash Dash and find Valkyr boring.

 

Saying... "ef u den leik etz dun youse etz prablem solved1" doesn't fix anything at all, it just makes people ignore it. There is a problem, and you have not justified why it isn't a problem (look at my posts for my justification as to why it is).

Except your posts are about as clear as using gibberish as an argument: you never once explained why there is a problem, except some hand waving about balance. If its unbalanced, simply don't use it. Its a very easy problem to solve. So easy to solve that any reasonable person would decide that your issue with the helm is that other people use it. Though I can't figure out how other people using the helm hurts you. And not once in this entire thread has anyone explained how having other party members use the helm hurts them.

If you're just gonna reply in gibberish again, don't bother. It just makes you look like a troll.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Inez

[MsXylar]

What a complete waste of a topic!!

Nerf a fast running tank?!!? If im down, I know I can rely on my RHINO team mate to run fast as %@#$ to get me up.. Add sanctuary on, and im a happy camper back up to kill again. Geez guys, some of you complain worse than a woman, and thats coming from one!

Rhino to stay as is lol..and seriously, make proper use of the forums..

[Dalewyn]

I can read, its just that what you wrote failed at basic logic.

So your argument is that removing the alt helm will suddenly make Excalibur and Valkyr more fun to play? Do you read the stuff you write?

I think you're the troll here. Changing Rhino will not suddenly make you think "Wow, I enjoy Excalibur so much!"

If you think Rhino is OP, just say he's OP. There are lots of ways to balance Rhino in addition to taking away the helm.

People who also fail at basic logic made the same ridiculous arguments about Nova. They claimed that Nova obsoleted every frame in the game. That didn't happen either.

You either enjoy Excalibur and Valkyr or you don't. Changes to other warframes aren't going to change that. Personally, I love Exaclibur and dislike Valkyr, but it has absolutely nothing to do with some other warframe's alt helmet. I love Blind and Slash Dash and find Valkyr boring.

I took the bait, and thus I'm going to be responsible for that act to the end, so here goes:

 

So your argument is that removing the alt helm will suddenly make Excalibur and Valkyr more fun to play? Do you read the stuff you write?

I think you're the troll here. Changing Rhino will not suddenly make you think "Wow, I enjoy Excalibur so much!"

I've loved Excalibur since the day I started Warframe and enjoy playing him to this very day, in fact he is my starter warframe and he still tops my "most used warframe" statistic at something like 70% or so. However, the fact remains that if I have Vanguard Rhino and he is clearly superior to everything Excalibur can bring, then that means I am intentionally gimping my team purely for the sake of my personal enjoyment and that's not exactly a pleasant thought to have.

 

I play games primarily for personal enjoyment, don't get me wrong, but Warframe is a co-op game and consequently I aim to make sure I am at least not presenting an unjustifiable sub-optimal gaming experience to my fellow gamers due to my choices.

 

If you think Rhino is OP, just say he's OP. There are lots of ways to balance Rhino in addition to taking away the helm.

I have clearly stated that the Vanguard Rhino Helmet is OP and needs to be nerfed or reworked. I have not stated that Rhino himself (with the slow movement speed) is OP, in fact I quite like the overall state that default Rhino is in (even though I hate the slow movement speed) and actually gives me a legitimate reason to use my more mobile frames if you thought to even read what I wrote.

 

People who also fail at basic logic made the same ridiculous arguments about Nova. They claimed that Nova obsoleted every frame in the game. That didn't happen either.

I will refrain from making any comments about Nova as I do not have her and I have not played enough games with her in them consistently to know how she works in a team/game. Besides, this topic is about Rhino.

 

You either enjoy Excalibur and Valkyr or you don't. Changes to other warframes aren't going to change that.

I do indeed enjoy my Excalibur and Valkyr (though Valkyr has some issues that I would love to discuss in a different topic), but refer to what I said above to see why this isn't a simple "I enjoy Excalibur and Valkyr, fin." for me.

 

Personally, I love Exaclibur and dislike Valkyr, but it has absolutely nothing to do with some other warframe's alt helmet. I love Blind and Slash Dash and find Valkyr boring.

Good for you.

 

[-CM-Syein]

Speed contributed to fun for majority. Tired of you nerfers out there who only know the word nerf instead of looking for further possible ways. 

Regress is only necessary when progress is not an option. 

[Ronyn]

TRUTH BOMB!

You my friend, have just crushed this thread. 

Bravo.

[MsXylar]

4 pages over a ALT HELM??!! Dont like it dont wear it..Dont know how much more simpler it can be..

 

Nerfing alt helms cause a minority does not know to un-equip?? Seriously re look at your whine..

 

Like SEIZE mentioned in his/her post, its all about nerfing instead of alternatives. The major one being, dont wear the ALT helm lol

[Nagisawa]

Wish I had one, would make Soloing so much more fun for me.  It's irritating at just how ponderously I move.

[Darkseal]

-1

[ZT0100]

Nerf it because the bonus is ridiculous. 25% speed, are you s%$*ing me? Look at the cool Loki Swindle helmet. 15% range boost, which adds 3m to radial disarm! Nearly useless, but sexy I must say. I know there are probably worse helmets out there, so the more reason to nerf the helmet. 10% sounds about right or maybe 15%, but definitely not 25%!

[UncleWalrus]

Look at the cool [etc...]

And that just invalidated your own argument. You're upset that while a Rhino gets a useful bonus on one of his helms, a helm you'd enjoy using due to its aspect (not objective utility) is arguably inferior.

The other Loki helm is still nice, granting efficiency iirc.

 

So, instead of asking DE to tweak the power of the Swindle helm, and make it more to your tastes, you want to hobble the Rhine's run speed and detract from his combination of speed and CC resistance.

 

wat.

 

 

Edit. Since we're speaking of Rhine helms, let's look at some other interesting pieces of visual design coupled with dubious stats modifiers.

Rhino Thrakk helmet: looks like you've got the head of a Hercules beetle and plan to put it to good use, goring things down.

In reality it makes the sluggish Rhino marginally slower and gives a piddling 20 of an utterly irrelevant stat.

Trinity Meridian helmet: More shields on a frame that has temporary invulnerability, while making casting said invulnerability cost more. Want. (Not.)

Vauban Gambit helmet: More stamina with a reduction to power duration, so you can more efficiently run away from the things you're failing to CC. Brilliant.

 

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that, in a game riddled with dubious systemic design features, and countless ill-conceived details, demanding that an interesting bit of gameplay be made blander and duller instead of wanting other bits of content to be less bland and dull seems a bit short-sighted.

Edited January 2, 2014 by UncleWalrus

[WarGrylls]

What a complete waste of a topic!!

Nerf a fast running tank?!!? If im down, I know I can rely on my RHINO team mate to run fast as %@#$ to get me up.. Add sanctuary on, and im a happy camper back up to kill again. Geez guys, some of you complain worse than a woman, and thats coming from one!

Rhino to stay as is lol..and seriously, make proper use of the forums..

Not enough +1s to give to this comment. 

[Nichizzy]

I am with the OP.

 

Thing is, we don't ask for a nerf lightly. I believe we've all owned a Rhino and have played with Rhinos enough to feel that it warrants a nerf.

 

The issue with Rhino helm, as one of the poster rightly pointed out, is that wearing the helm improves the Rhino drastically. From being a ultra tanky but cumbersome frame, to a very tanky and fast/agile tank. No doubt everybody welcomes good things, but sometimes stuff which are too good, is detrimental to the gameplay.

 

As it is, I consider Rhino to be relatively OP compared to other frames. Absurdly high health-shield 'hit points', made even higher by Ironskin - which has an added advantage of immunity to cc and have generally no issue to be kept on indefinitely for low to med levels. There's no need for handspring, fortitude or constitution mods - mods which are used on my other frames because knockdowns from heavies are very annoying. A mobility skill, a high damaging, large Aoe ultimate, and a very good damage buff. While these may just be my opinion, it is undeniable that Rhino is statistically the most used warframe and that is for a reason.

 

The Rhino powerhouse used to be balanced by the fact that he's slow. So that while he may wreck anything that moves, he usually arrives a little later to the scene and has to content himself by unleashing his fury on what's left on the battlefield. This is a trade-off. Power for speed. Nova has great damage and cc skill, but cannot sustain prolonged direct damages. This is her trade-off. Trade-offs are inherently good in games because it requires the players to make a choice. It promotes balance. The fact is this: Vanguard Rhino has benefits which hugely outweighs the disadvantages, when compared to the alt. helms of other frames.

 

We do not insist a Vanguard Rhino to be slow because other games depicts tanks as slow. We want Vanguard Rhinos to be slightly slower, as a balance to his very powerful frame. If we do not strive for this balance, the game will eventually be un-challenging and mundane (because everyone will use Rhino).

 

You may argue that we may simply choose to not use Vanguard Rhino or even Rhinos. But there is a point where that choice is meaningless. Why would I want to use Frost with great skill to wall jump, slide, dash, zorencopter, pump the map or whatever, when a Vanguard Rhino can just run from A to B with no skill required, and still reach there faster than I do, kill faster than I do (with 4) and survive non-defense maps better than I do? All we want is a level playing field in a challenging game, where our skills can shine. It may be a co-op game, but we all compare ourselves against others anyway.

[Helljack84]

Because Frost has snow globe and can solo t3 mob def with any sentinel while eating pizza. If you're playing a run and gun map you might want to take a Warframe that excels at this stuff.

 

A slow Rhino can't do his job properly. If I have one on the team I want the big guy ahead of me to soak bullets. There's not much point in cc/buffs/being tanky if everythings over by the time you arrive.

 

If the game turns into a race you're either too slow or someones just rushing, that's not the vanguard helmets fault.

[Makya]

Can I get the 'VANGUARD' look but with the effects of Thrak? I would rather have health and copter than a lil bit of speed.

[UncleWalrus]

 a high damaging, [snip] ultimate, 

 

Are we playing the same game? Above 30, Stomp tickles, and my Mag-playing friend will often chew me out on draining shields and lessening the effectiveness of Polarize if I miss R and hit 4 or simply react to seeing too many things onscreen and shooting at me.

 

 

 

 The fact is this: Vanguard Rhino has benefits which hugely outweighs the disadvantages, when compared to the alt. helms of other frames.

Trinity would like a word with you.

 

Let's nurf the Trin aura helm because half minute Blessing too good, hurr durr.

[-GSB-BlueMonster]

Speed can be completely irrelevant to most runs. I run a thrak helm w/ my Rhino and I'm usually first to extract anyway. It all matters on the players themselves. Most of you are looking at it from a completely theoretical and statistic point of view. Thats like saying that I'm gonna beat you in a race cause my car is "statistically" faster than yours.... WRONG! You're complaining about something that is trivial all because you want your Excal to be faster than Rhino. Booo friggin hoo... Complain about important things like a lack of skill/buff timers, which is a necessity at this point with the higher level runs.

[Cwierz]

/snip

Certainly this brought up many valid points.

However the basis of your claims is not entirely correct.

You simply cannot and i repeat CANNOT use high levels and endgame to justify ANYTHING in this game. DE has stated that they are imbalanced, and anyone with half a brain can realize it.

In high levels, all that ends up happening is people use the stupidest game mechanics in existence to fight the most broken scaling system in existence.

 

This brings up my second point. The entire post had mentions to the stupidest skills currently in the game.

If you noticed, and I don't remember if I said this in the exact wording or not, or if I included everything I am about to say really quick.

"Rhino has the best all around skillset of any frame that isn't OP"

 

This includes, Snowglobe, Bastille, Blessing, M Prime, Chaos, to name the biggest offenders that are in fact OP.

 

To wrap this up, never use endgame or high levels as justification for anything, its dumb, and makes DE balance around an already broken and non existent endgame. Don't use skills that are blatantly OP (despite how many people want to argue this) to justify anything either.

 

Also, Valkyr and Trinity don't have actual CC immunity. They do get pushed back by a meter or so, and that adds up really fast. Rhino is the only frame that has complete and utter immunity.

 

I mean, I can understand where you are coming from, and it would look completely solid. But the fact of the matter is that the games scaling and progression mission wise is so #*($%%@ up that unless we weed out the problems we have now we will never be able to fix the progression and scaling. It might be some of the reason that many people view me as a nerfer, but I think that blessing, snowglobe, chaos, m prime, and a host of other things need to be removed, or nerfed.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Cwierz

[XDeathCoreX]

This thread exists to get the Vanguards into an uproar by getting their helmet stats removed. They just want the Rhino players to create a bunch a whine threads and drink their tears.

 

There is no valid point in this thread, just poor uneducated fallacies...

 

The devs should do everyone a favor and boost the movement speed of all slows frames by 25%. 15% boost for the mediocre speed frames, then they can remove speed boost stats from any helmet and no Ninja would be slow. Movement is a big deal in this game, why make it less fun.

 

An alternative would be adding a utility slot to each frame where mods like rush can only go. They can still be placed in other slots.

[UncleWalrus]

This includes, Snowglobe, Bastille, Blessing, M Prime, Chaos, to name the biggest offenders that are in fact OP.

I mean, I can understand where you are coming from, and it would look completely solid. But the fact of the matter is that the games scaling and progression mission wise is so #*($%%@ up that unless we weed out the problems we have now we will never be able to fix the progression and scaling. It might be some of the reason that many people view me as a nerfer, but I think that blessing, snowglobe, chaos, m prime, and a host of other things need to be removed, or nerfed.

So, what you're saying is that you want everything to be equally useless and be forced to hide in cover and just shoot at things while they shoot back (or try to peel your face off). Yeeeeah. No.

Snowglobe, Bastille and Blessing and Chaos are "OP" because they fully negate the otherwise insane amount of incoming damage. MPrime is the single reliable nuke that can deal with most anything.

In an environment where you could reliably nuke entire rooms with a good assortment of abilities and setups, not be forced into massive firefights at close range to need absurd levels of CC, or have other, more varied ways of mitigation or self and team support instead of the sea of underwhelming abilities of dubious utility that many frames sport, these skills would not stick out as "OP" due to there being other, equally valid options and playstyles.

Problem is, you're putting the cart before the horses. These skills aren't OP. Everything else is at best lackluster, fixed damage abilities being the prime offender.

So pressure DE to adjust scaling, both for enemies and for damage skills, if not even for weapons, or replace skills with potentially more useful options.

What you also need to keep in mind is that not all weapons and abilities are created equal. There will always be demonstrably better setups.

Let's take another 4 player co-op focused title into consideration, namely Borderlands 2.

After the second playthrough, full-mele Zer0 is useless. Generally, you'll go for a stealth/utility and halfway into mele setup, with a certain gearset to complement survivability by, get this, restoring your entire, not negligible healthpool on every mele hit. Otherwise you're basically dead and deal next to no damage. The setup is simply not viable.

Gaige with a pure BFF build can't kill things fast enough. Give an Anarchy Gaige ten minutes with a shoddy Jakobs shotgun in Sanctuary and you'll have an out-of-control OHK-capable killing machine that ensures survivability by constantly dispatching foes at point blank.

Give a correctly spec'd Axton a good launcher and watch him clear rooms. Focus exclusively on defense and all you'll be able to do is toss a turret out, hide behind a wall and pray for the cooldown to end faster than your face can get shot off.

Salvador is another high durability character that focuses on triggered self-regen and damage reduction that's oft decried as OP, but even with him, certain builds are dubiously effective.

Given a set of tools, people will choose those that are most efficient at a task. When you put basically an Ash with inherent punch-through, a weapon with inherent *5 multishot and an immense damage amp that takes effect when your shields are full in the same game, you can expect people to put them together for some gamebreaking metagaming.

And the current meta-game rewards precisely CC-heavy, damage negation focused setups. It barely rewards stealth, makes positional play only relevant in where to apply CC or damage negation, and often leaves long and extreme range combat impossible. So when you've got twenty things barreling down at you, your best choice is to CC them and roast them with MPrime, Polarize or massed weapon fire.

While I can agree that this is a systemic flaw, the solution is by all means NOT removing your capacity to CC them and roast them. The solution is to give you equally valid, potentially better alternatives.

Edited January 3, 2014 by UncleWalrus