Toxic Type Is Wrong

[ReiganCross]

I really, really don't like idea of the "Toxic" element that came with 2.0. I don't like any of it's combination as well. To me, it just feels like it doesn't belong with Fire, Lightning and Ice...

 

I actually wrote a massive text to explain it. But then the image of all the fanboys trying to defend "Toxic" as an element because "there's nothing wrong in Warframe" just put me off. So here's the TL:DR of that text that shall never be.

 

So... "Never shall be" is as accurate as saying that the Master Sword rests in it's pedestal "Forever" apparently... Because some people actually do have a point, i can't just go around saying "Toxic Type is Wrong" without actually elaborating on the subject. So let's go along with it and make that big wall of text.

 

So first, "Toxic" damage is a bit vague, don't you think? Now sure that argument is meaningless, "Heat" is a bit vague and i don't see much of the problem with it. But here's the thing, i don't mind Toxic as an element permeating a scythe of a HMG, i have a problem with the combinations that entails, and the fact that now about half of the possible combinations between elements are dedicated to inflicting status effect that are strictly forbidden by the conventions of war (whose name i forgot but is unimportant, since, y'know, Space Ninjas.) One of the reasons i like those things being "forbidden" is that i think they're disgusting methods of cowardly killing your opponent. So let's take a look at the combinations that comes with Toxic.

 

First "Virus" with Toxic and Cold.

Ok, first, i don't really see how "Toxic", that generic term defining a mean to destroy your enemy with an unspecified goo that somehow destroys them because of reason, can become "Cold" and suddenly becomes a Virus... Which is, visually, yet another term for an unspecified goo that somehow destroys your enemy because of reasons, it just makes them sick in the process (So you're telling me that enemy hit with toxic doesn't become sick?... Sure...) And once again, 6 possible combinations, and one of them is already about Toxic, being Toxic... With the Cold part of the combination just dangling there reminding us that with cold, Toxic can become Virus for some inexplicable reason (And don't you dare try to reason this with science, remember, Space Ninjas).

 

Second "Gas" with Toxic and Heat.

Ok, when i first heard this, in my superior state of maturity, i had to think about fart jokes for about an hour. Then, when the fun started to wear down, i started thinking how little sense does that make. First, assuming we're talking about poison gas and not just generic gas such as the one you and i are breathing right now, isn't gas normally a method of delivering an element instead of the element itself? So, if it's really poison gas we're talking about, isn't the element Toxic exactly the same, expect it's being delivered via aerial medium? Instead, Gas could be referring to Acid Gas, a much more threatening alternative like the ashes of lava that i'm going to talk about on the next combination. Once again, Heat serves nothing to inform about why this combination came to be with Toxic, so my guess is that this non-specified toxin, when heated up, become gaseous. You'd think that would be obvious, but remember that when you freeze this same toxin up, instead of becoming solidified, it turns into a virus, so forget normal thinking (And again, no science.)

 

Third "Corrosive" with Toxic and Electric.

And finally we hit Corrosive, probably the best of the combinations that comes with Toxic and possibly the only one people use because it wreck some Grineer &#! like nothing ever seen in the Sol System. Corrosive comes in the same tone i have with Toxic, it's a bit generic and vague i didn't had a problem with vagueness there so i don't have a problem with it being vague here. But here comes my beef concerning both of those, i kind of think they should switch places. Corrosive sounds more like a generic element that goes along with anything and can combine into anything. A corrosive gas cloud would be deadly to everything it touches and would seem that much threatening, much like incendiary cloud of napalm (yet another weapon forbidden by war conventions, but as we established, Space Ninjas.) That would at least hold the element of Fire relevant to the combination if you do some actual fire-acid cloud. And again with the combinations, freezing the Toxic element turns it into a Virus, heating it up turns it into a deadly fart and hooking it up with a car battery turns it into acid?

 

How in the nine holy hells am i supposed to relate that "Toxic" element to anything i'v learned so far? I'm not going to re-learn my poisons just because you want to be special, Warframe. If you want to make something new and unique, at least base SOME of it in something we can all understand so you can slowly shift us towards a new understanding of your obnoxious uniqueness.

 

I'd also like to take the opportunity to remind the gentleman that are coming with physics and whatnot to defend this idea. Explaining what the Toxic could be (which you'll never be right, unless it comes from DE itself) does not makes it any less disgusting and morally repulsive. This is what the "Wrong" in the tittle is about, i'm not talking about the little facts of science, i'm talking about it impeding immersion into the fiction of being an actual good guy in this messed up sol system where we turn our hostages into dust for ease of transport. (There's only so much i can take after the aforementioned torture method.)

 

And since we're here, might as well take a look at the other combinations, remember, i don't have much problems with those:

 

Heat and Cold makes Blast

I have very little understanding of how that works too, how can something be heated and frosted at the same time, but i imagine that one could make a very violent reaction of the same paradox so i don't have much of a problem there. Beside, the idea of blasting people with a sword is not an idea that potentially makes me vomit. (Not because of the idea of "Virus" is bad, it is, but because the idea of going around spreading a lethal virus kind of makes me sick, as in actual stomach-hurting sick.)

Ok, so Heat infers high pressure, cold infers low pressure and mixing them up makes things go boom. Like i said, i don't mind Blast, it's a good enough elemental combination.

 

Heat and Electricity makes Radiation

At first i saw this tittle and was disgusted by Steve and his idea of making 4 of the 6 possible combination be about poisoning people in some variety. But then i saw that his idea of Radiation stems less from nuclear radiation and more towards Lasers. So yeah, Lasers are awesome, although i have little idea how exactly Fire and Lightning combines to make laser, but i guess i can accept the fact that they're all burning stuff very fast. I have a feeling that had he put "Plasma" instead of "Radiation" it would make my knee-jerk reaction a little less painful to my face but at least the final concept of radiation comes down to... What's that?... The status effect of Radiation is, essentially Radiation Poisoning?... Goddamn it, Steve, you poison-loving toxic-obsessed freak!

 

Cold and Electricity makes Magnetic

Although i have very little idea of why Ice and Lightning generates Magnetism, i'm guessing the idea stems from those cool frozen disc that can levitate stuff in the air? So without entering the science of this, kind of a nice, unexpected but somewhat based on something i could potentially know about combination of element there. Possibly the best and easiest to understand.

There's also a whole idea of magnetism generating from really really cold areas as the north pole, so on and so forth with a whole bunch of sciente that really does not belong on a world where every moon have it's own orbit around the sun... But hey, i don't mind, once again, best elemental combination ever have come into Magnetic.

 

If i forgot anything else or if anything offended anyone here, i'll edit it in or out where appropriate.

Edited January 3, 2014 by ReiganCross

[leonvision]

YOU dont "like" it, so it's "wrong"?, ok mate.

 

besides, look at other games (namely RPGs) that has elemental damage in it, look at diablo for instance. the 4th element is also poison.

[Brynslustafir]

It fits in just fine if you ask me. And the Corrosive combo melts Grineers. 

[ReiganCross]

YOU dont "like" it, so it's "wrong"?, ok mate.

 

besides, look at other games (namely RPGs) that has elemental damage in it, look at diablo for instance. the 4th element is also poison.

 

Yes, but in Diablo you don't go around combining it with stuff making things like "Gas" and "Viral"...

[LukeAura]

Games have been using poison as an element long before warframe. 
At least in warframe its sensical that the poison is some kind of special modification to the gun, unlike say, Final Fantasy a through to z where its magic poison....Or is that poison magic? 
 

Yes, but in Diablo you don't go around combining it with stuff making things like "Gas" and "Viral"...

Final Fantasy 4 remake for the ds, canonneer class. 
Final Fantasy X, Thief chick. 
Both have a mix ability, that could mix elemental items to create combos as far as I recall. 
It's not new to warframe for certain that poison could be combined with other elements. 
Many games involving alchemy probably have a poison+other combo too. 
Oh, and poison/grass types in pokemon. Can't forget that combo I wish didn't exist. 


You're going to have to post that massive text post. No one's going to believe just because you say so, especially when games have done the whole toxic element thing many times before under less believable circumstances. 

[ReiganCross]

You're going to have to post that massive text post. No one's going to believe just because you say so, especially when games have done the whole toxic element thing many times before under less believable circumstances. 

 

Well, the main hurdle in the way of that is that i can't be asked. Seriously, i just say that i don't like the Toxic type and it feels dirty. And within 5min of post there's already 3 dudes telling me how wrong i am for thinking that.

 

So no, i'm not going into a major confrontation with a defensive fanbase that will go mostly un-noticed by DE staff. If people don't believe me, then let this post die here.

[rhoenix]

Ok, so you think it's wrong. What should replace Toxic damage then, given that there have to be four elements for combinations?

[Tarudizer]

I really, really don't like idea of the "Toxic" element that came with 2.0. I don't like any of it's combination as well. To me, it just feels like it doesn't belong with Fire, Thunder and Ice...

 

Alright, thanks for your input, I guess. I actually DO think it fits in perfectly. I believe that's what's called "having an opinion". Saying it's wrong however, is in itself wrong (don't think about that one too much...).

 

YOU dont "like" it, so it's "wrong"?, ok mate.

 

One could say he has a rather... toxic personality. Heeeyyooooooooo-

 

Yes, but in Diablo you don't go around combining it with stuff making things like "Gas" and "Viral"...

 

Warframe doing something original and intriguing? BLASPHEMY

Edited January 2, 2014 by Tarudizer

[xGryphus]

Basing your judgement on your "feel" is rather poor baseline and surely doesn't means that poison, element present in countless games since ancient times, is "wrong". Truth to be told your in minority here and calling vast majority "fanbase" just to diminish that point of view is just low. If it pains you so much just consider yourself another victim of democracy.
One last thing: this is DE's game and at the end of the day they can do whatever they want with it - you either adjust or quit. To many spoiled players already think they can force they "the only appropriate point of view".

Edited January 2, 2014 by xGryphus

[Syzodia]

Toxic damage?

I only know toxin damage

#prescriptivist.

 

Edit the thread title, because it's one thing to say it is wrong, another to believe/think/feel/etc. that it is wrong.

I, for one, love it.

 

(Obviously - #sarynmasterrace)

[Post_Scriptum]

Well, the main hurdle in the way of that is that i can't be asked. Seriously, i just say that i don't like the Toxic type and it feels dirty. And within 5min of post there's already 3 dudes telling me how wrong i am for thinking that.

 

So no, i'm not going into a major confrontation with a defensive fanbase that will go mostly un-noticed by DE staff. If people don't believe me, then let this post die here.

First, your title says 'toxic damage is wrong'. Not something that would mean 'i dont like toxic damage'

Your title gives you the impression that you are saying the toxin element was a fault of DE. Of course the people who dont feel the same way as you do will defend it, since they like it the way it is. You cant call that defensive community.

Second, you said 'it just feels like it doesnt belong with fire, thunder, and ice.

Of course people who think it weird that toxic doesnt belong with other elements will give their thoughts on it.

Also you arent elaborating on why you think toxin damage is weird, which doesnt help it.

[ReiganCross]

Ok, so you think it's wrong. What should replace Toxic damage then, given that there have to be four elements for combinations?

 

Does it needs to?... Because i admit very humbl that no, i have no idea what should replace Toxic as a 4th element... Storm, Earth and Fire to go with the Horde song?... So... Earth?.... No, that's stupid, it weould be like attacking the enemy with a very heavy rock, so essentially a blunt weapon. 

 

First, your title says 'toxic damage is wrong'. Not something that would mean 'i dont like toxic damage'

Your title gives you the impression that you are saying the toxin element was a fault of DE. Of course the people who dont feel the same way as you do will defend it, since they like it the way it is. You cant call that defensive community.

 

Guess you're right. Editing... Ok, here's a good question... How does one edit... Ah, y'know what?... Incoming wall of text...

Edited January 2, 2014 by ReiganCross

[Deaths.Reap3r]

Yes, but in Diablo you don't go around combining it with stuff making things like "Gas" and "Viral"...

Here's the catch.

This is warframe.

[direcyphre]

Corrosive was certainly my favorite elemental type in Borderlands, even if it was really only amazingly effective against robots. Definitely a prevalent feature in lot of different games though, as we're not doing something silly like earth or air for elemental types. The combinations therein has nothing to do with other games, or even this particular topic you've created. It's one thing to hate on toxin, it's another to hate on my dearest corrosive or viral.

[ReiganCross]

There you go, massive wall of text... Hope you're happy -.-'...

[LukeAura]

I really, really don't like idea of the "Toxic" element that came with 2.0. I don't like any of it's combination as well. To me, it just feels like it doesn't belong with Fire, Thunder and Ice...

 

I actually wrote a massive text to explain it. But then the image of all the fanboys trying to defend "Toxic" as an element because "there's nothing wrong in Warframe" just put me off. So here's the TL:DR of that text that shall never be.

 

So... "Never shall be" is as accurate as saying that the Master Sword rests in it's pedestal "Forever" apparently... Because some people actually do have a point, i can't just go around saying "Toxic Type is Wrong" without actually elaborating on the subject. So let's go along with it and make that big wall of text.

 

So first, "Toxic" damage is a bit vague, don't you think? Now sure that argument is meaningless, "Heat" is a bit vague and i don't see much of the problem with it. But here's the thing, i don't mind Toxic as an element permeating a scythe of a HMG, i have a problem with the combinations that entails, and the fact that now about half of the possible combinations between elements are dedicated to inflicting status effect that are strictly forbidden by the conventions of war (whose name i forgot but is unimportant, since, y'know, Space Ninjas.) One of the reasons i like those things being "forbidden" is that i think they're disgusting methods of cowardly killing your opponent. So let's take a look at the combinations that comes with Toxic.

 

First "Virus" with Toxic and Cold.

 

Second "Gas" with Toxic and Heat.

 

 

Third "Corrosive" with Toxic and Electric.

 

 

Since we're here, might as well take a look at the other combinations:

 

Heat and Cold makes Blast

I have very little understanding of how that works too, how can something be heated and frosted at the same time, but i imagine that one could make a very violent reaction of the same paradox so i don't have much of a problem there.

 

Heat and Electricity makes Radiation

 

Cold and Electricity makes Magnetic

 

If i forgot anything else or if anything offended anyone here, i'll edit it in or out where appropriate.

First of all,thank you for the wall. 

Secondly toxin damage is a poison or maybe a venom. Whatever. It attacks the blood, muscles, or nervous system and deteriorates the foe away from the inside out. Virus is a sickness, disease, ailment, it attacks the immune system and causes well, sick feelings like weakness, light headedness, fatigue, nausea, heart burn, indigestion, upset stomach, you know the last part. The combination is that when you're out in the cold for too long, you can get sick. Poison is just the catalyst to go from regular cold damage to getting sick from the cold.  

I will give you gas though. So I boiled the poison in to an airborne poison and.... the compressed it into a bullet and shot it inside my foe where it, does the exact same thing? Except it doesn't and has unique properties. 

Heat and cold. I forget which comes first, but you take a really hot/cold item and you quickly warm/cool it and it tends to blow up. Or it could be that to have something be super hot at very low temperatures requires very low pressure on it, essentially creating a bubble of negative pressure that blows out, more likely the first case though as this is a little silly of an idea. 

Plasma is just a superheated state. It doesn't offer any 'unique' function over a burn or corrosive effect. Radiation being Heat+Electricity is essentially a microwave. 

Corrosive, I don't really get how it comes from Electricity+Toxin. But it needed a combo and all in all, it kind of fits the industrial theme you get when combining the aesthetic idea of Electricity and poison. 

Sorry for the rush, but my time is cut short and I'll come back and clarify/polish later if needed.

[ReiganCross]

Luke, i am seeing you using massive amounts of that pesky "Science" i kept telling you was useless next to the "Space Ninja" argument.

 

Toxic deteriorates the guy from the inside out, i would dare say, corroding him from the inside, so once again "Corrosive" would make a better Toxic then Toxic could. And are we really going about shooting the flu in people?... Because that idea, again, turns my stomach and makes it do fips as i'm trying to hold my breakfast in. Although i do guess it's a personal issue...

 

I did said Blast is allright, and it seems to be like that anyways. Again, the concept of blasting stuff is pretty cool, explosions should always be an element, Borderlands style. You can't not have fun while blowing stuff up, except in CoD, i guess.

 

Sure plasma would not be better then Radiation in any way, but did the effect HAD to be yet another form of poisoning someone in yet another disgusting cancer-inducing way? Like i said, i have no problem with going around shooting lasers at people, but did that had to relate back to poison as well? It doesn't even have Toxic in the combo! X__X

[Makya]

Minor nit pick, there isn't a 'thunder' themed element, none of the elements deal with sound waves, there is a Lightning/Electrical element though.

[lautalocos]

vydia games.

 

you dont see me asking from where do the tenno take the cartridges to reload their guns.

why do giant red balls heal me?

how can frost create a snow globe? and how can it block bullets but not people? why does it only block attacks from the outside?

[AttackNitro]

Toxic = harmful to living beings

 

Cold = temperature

 

Now whats harmful to living beings, that you get in the cold? =  a virus (the common cold)

 

Heat = increased pressure

Cold = decreased pressure

 

Combining Cold with Heat = sudden increase in pressure = explosion (blast)

[Archistopheles]

Looks like I'm a little late to the party:

 

Viruses are a toxic microbe that thrive in cold temperatures.

 

Gas is a toxic chemical with a low evaporation point. (Liquids evaporate when exposed to heat)

 

Corrosive acid is a toxic liquid. Battery acid is Corrosive. Batteries have an electric charge

 

Blast - Copying AttackNitro's answer

 

Magnetic - Electronic field generated without the need of heat. Not good enough? The earth has two magnetic poles, and they are both the coldest parts of our planet.

 

Radiation - "In physics, radiation is a process in which energetic particles or energetic waves travel through a vacuum, or through matter-containing media that are not required for their propagation." Energetic particles = eletricity. Radiation burns = heat

[Syzodia]

Ugh if we're to explain types, I'll join the band wagon.

Toxin = Poisonous substance; a poison is biologically harmful. This is why this form ignores shields.

 

Blast (heat+cold) = as mentioned already, rapid temperature changes ≈ rapid pressure change : a blast.

Viral (toxin+cold) = As mentioned above me, viruses thrive in colder temperatures, but not necessarily very cold. Different from toxin because toxin can involve bacteria or just artificial chemical compounds; Viral is itself biologically external, unless applied internally.

Gas (heat+toxin) = ...toxic vapour? what else is there to say...

Corrosive (ϟ+☠) = Redox is probably the only way I can explain this... think of HCl and metals, for instance.

Magnetic (ϟ+❄) = Heard of superconductivity? Electronic resistance lowers with temperature decrease, high currents = stronger E.M. Field. In Superconductivity a substance can be "locked" in space thanks to quantum physics (this i can't explain because I'm an amateur).

Anyway, ϟ+❄ = a really really strong magnet.

Radiation (heat+ϟ) = Firstly, heat is a form of radiation. Ionisation can occur via radiation - electron transfer. Gamma rays too, are a form of radiation. Beta particles are another, which are just electrons, really. Electrons, and heat = radiation in warframe, I guess.

Although like someone else said, I generally think of plasma with this combo, which is an ionised gas......a hot one at that........so, close enough?

 

anyway, my point/perspective/opinion is that toxin damage is FINE, and makes SENSE. Remove toxin and explain the infested then.

[ReiganCross]

Toxic = harmful to living beings

 

Ok, i'm going to take that definition of Toxic entirely out of context to prove another point since the "I'm carrying the flu" seems to please people enough... Isn't any kind of physical damage also harmful to living beings?... Or any drastic change in temperature?... Or a high amperage?... Hell, i actually like to think that Toxic is some kind of chemical agent like Cyanide instead of some nasty mix of bacterial or viral agent.

 

 

Minor nit pick, there isn't a 'thunder' themed element, none of the elements deal with sound waves, there is a Lightning/Electrical element though.

 

Adressed, changed every mention of Thunder with Lightning. The text remains pretty much the same.

 

 

Looks like I'm a little late to the party:

 

Viruses are a toxic microbe that thrive in cold temperatures.

 

Gas is a toxic chemical with a low evaporation point. (Liquids evaporate when exposed to heat)

 

Corrosive acid is a toxic liquid. Battery acid is Corrosive. Batteries have an electric charge

 

Blast - Copying AttackNitro's answer

 

Magnetic - Electronic field generated without the need of heat. Not good enough? The earth has two magnetic poles, and they are both the coldest parts of our planet.

 

Radiation - "In physics, radiation is a process in which energetic particles or energetic waves travel through a vacuum, or through matter-containing media that are not required for their propagation." Energetic particles = eletricity. Radiation burns = heat

 

First, there is no place for actual science in a world where flames bursts from a woman's hand because she's using a very funny piece of arm-gear.

 

Second, Viruses CAN be made to make sense but that doesn't make it any less disgusting.

 

anyway, my point/perspective/opinion is that toxin damage is FINE, and makes SENSE. Remove toxin and explain the infested then.

 

I could just explain the infested by using the word "Infestation" instead of the word "Toxic"... Hell, it would actually make it that much more sinister as an enemy attack. The difference here is that i'm not sure if i want to play Alex Mercer here spreading the Blacklight virus across all the Sol System. But apparently the Technocyte Virus only affect the dead, or the living, or they didn't figured out how their own system work so why the hell exactly do you expect me to explain it? Just let us fight against it as an antagonistic force while we use cleaner methods of killing, such as burning cleansing fire.

Edited January 3, 2014 by ReiganCross

[Makya]

@ReiganCross What of the Tenno who care not for being clean and completing their tasks as they see fit, be it with a charred and smoldering corpses, rotting festations or whole bathed in the blood of those who raised a finger to them? I would ask question.. why would a Tenno insist on being clean over an efficient agent?

 

Just a note, fire is far from clean, it kills much but does not do so neatly.

[ReiganCross]

@ReiganCross What of the Tenno who care not for being clean and completing their tasks as they see fit, be it with a charred and smoldering corpses, rotting festations or whole bathed in the blood of those who raised a finger to them? I would ask question.. why would a Tenno insist on being clean over an efficient agent?

 

Just a note, fire is far from clean, it kills much but does not do so neatly.

 

I'll be honest... I got nothing. I don't know how to address the issue of Tenno that enjoy the though of eating away at their opponents with flesh-eating bacteria infused into every bullet. I don't have to understand it, and i actually think that the guy that is splitting aliens in half actually have no place to judge anyone's preferred method of killing, especially of a guy that will most likely be blown to bits in the very next second by a loose jolt of thunder from some Volt's finger.

 

Huh... This actually struck as a realization that maybe the Toxic type might be here only to cater for those Tenno of evil tendency that enjoy to torture their opponents as much as possible before killing, which IS a totally viable method of storytelling. It is STILL morally repulsive as all hell, but at least i can understand that it has a presence for a reason, that the Tenno can choose a easier method to be more "efficient" by essentially being an amoral psychotic (Y'know, instead of us regular moral psychotic that roam about the solar system.)