Survival - Air (Why!?)

[Tyroki]

Okay.

That's it.

I've had enough of this.

 

Survival is a fun concept. Going as far as you can, with gradually ramping difficulty?

Awesome fun.

 

Survival can be really freaking intense...

 

Until air.

 

There have been FAR too many times now, when I've been with a group. The mission has been getting seriously intense, and really quite difficult... until someone looks at the % bar that we all forget to look at.

 

Is there a massive scramble for air? Yes. Do we like that? Hell no.

It ruins the fight. It kills the buzz.

 

Why?

What's the point?

 

Isn't it bad enough that when the fight is getting too hard, you then have to fight your way to exfil?

 

I can understand the need to keep players from fighting right next to the exfil point, but this? This is stupid, ridiculous, and flat out kills the fun.

 

Fun. Remember that word? This is meant to be a game. I understand that games have a degree of work, but when that work ruins the fun? That's horrid.

 

It's especially horrid when the air is under two layers of RNG. Remember RNG? That thing you were meant to be working on?

 

First layer? Air Points. Somtimes these come in an abundance, spawning in almost immediately after the last one was used. But sometimes? Sometimes, they are few and far between.

 

This is where the second layer comes in. Small Air Packs. A random drop from enemies. More RNG.

 

But this is where it gets especially ridiculous.

 

When the air points are few and far between, and the air packs simply aren't dropping, people are often forced to exfil. There is no choice. It doesn't matter if the enemies are still easy enough to keep going. Boom, RNG just forced you to stop having fun.

 

... Shouldn't we stop fighting based on our skill and not whether RNG dictates we should?

 

This system is weak, and destroys the fun far too easily. As it is, it sometimes feels like a Necros is REQUIRED for survivals, merely to keep the air rolling without worry. Even then, there are plenty of times when... oh. No air. I guess we have to stop.

 

I... just...

 

Eff it. Discuss.

[cacodemon9000]

Totally agree. This "Survival" is my biggest disappointment in the game. I call it "Oxygen hunt" or "Oxygen famine" mode, because there are almost nothing about real survival. All we need is to collect oxygen and keep it's level above zero as long as possible, oxygen is your real threat, not enemies.

Edited January 4, 2014 by cacodemon9000

[Monolake]

It adds difficulty and tension, forces you to move around the map and kill as many as you can instead of sitting out in a bubble. Its well-designed mode.  But you want oxygen-less survival just fighting against hordes? Why not have it as alternative mode, especially it makes sense on open maps (since oxygen pods in outdoor maps = funny nonsense anyway). 

No oxygen, but instead each 5 min LOOK what our operative have found! - and a marker appears on a map indidcating a place where special reward appears (to make you move around a map just a bit)

Edited January 4, 2014 by Monolake

[rhoenix]

Sorry, I can't agree.

That's part of the challenge of Survival missions - you must keep an eye on the life support meter while you're working your way through incoming hordes of enemies, or you'll fail. It's more rewarding than Defense missions because of that, but with that reward comes greater inherent risk due to life support.

Edited January 4, 2014 by rhoenix

[Tyroki]

Difficulty and tension comes from the mobs being increasingly harder, both from us dealing less damage and them both dealing more and coming in high numbers.

 

When you're actually focusing on surviving the waves (and I'm not talking about using an invul Trinity, though that comes with it's possible issues to keep tensions high), it is tense. It is difficult. It is... oh gods, our air is too low and no more is spawning! EXFIL! EXFIL! WE CAN'T KEEP GOING, DESPITE THE FACT THE FIGHT IS REALLY GOOD RIGHT NOW AND WE'RE HAVING A BLAST.

 

-.-

[ViridianDrake]

It adds difficulty and tension.

 

No, it does not. all it does is add a needless scramble to complete a quicktime event.

Better hurry, you need to press X to not die! it's pointless and completely unnecessary.

And let's not forget, sometimes? It doesen't even spawn, or even drop, ending the fight before it even started.

Edited January 4, 2014 by ViridianDrake

[rhoenix]

No, it does not. all it does is add a needless scramble to complete a quicktime event.

Better hurry, you need to press X to not die! it's pointless and completely unnecessary.

Then perhaps Defense missions might be more to your liking.

Part of the challenge of Survival is being able to keep an eye on the life support meter even while dealing with non-stop streams of enemies. In Defense, you wouldn't have to worry about it.

[nintega]

A compromise, then: make Survival on tilesets such as Corpus Outpost, Grineer Settlement, and Earth Jungle, instead of having an oxygen timer, just be an open-ended Horde-mode type of thing. Everyone likes Horde-mode, right?

 

If you want to have an actual threat outside the enemies for those planets, though, this is something I literally just thought of that sounds entertaining: the enemy faction is lining up an orbital strike on your location, and in order to delay that strike, you go around hacking terminals to scramble the enemy ships' targeting systems, or launch some kind of anti-air missiles that make the enemy ship scramble to reduce damage and move to re-target. I dunno, like I said, something interesting I just came up with.

[Tyroki]

Then perhaps Defense missions might be more to your liking.

Part of the challenge of Survival is being able to keep an eye on the life support meter even while dealing with non-stop streams of enemies. In Defense, you wouldn't have to worry about it.

... Sooo the people who don't want to play defense because they don't want to guard something should just... not play?

 

That is idiotic.

Also, he made mention to the fact that sometimes air neither spawns or drops, forcing you out whether you want to leave or not, which IS a problem.

 

We don't want to leave, but are FORCED to leave... because RNG.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Tyroki

[ViridianDrake]

Part of the challenge of Survival is being able to keep an eye on the life support meter even while dealing with non-stop streams of enemies.

 

Part of the point i'm trying to make, is that oftentimes air simply DOES NOT SPAWN. Even FORCING you to fail, because NO AIR SPAWNED, nor even dropped, before the five minute marker.

Edited January 4, 2014 by ViridianDrake

[Tyroki]

Part of the point i'm trying to make, is that oftentimes air simply DOES NOT SPAWN. Even FORCING you to fail, because NO AIR SPAWNED before the five minute marker.

Not to mention it can happen before any of the markers. Oh look, no air.

 

Sometimes, it doesn't matter how many groups of enemies you kill. RNG can literally force you out, because NO air dropped.

 

This is my problem with the air system. It flat out ruins what is otherwise a damn good, and very fun horde mode.

Y'know what? I like horde mode. I, personally, have ditched large portions of games just to play horde mode.

I still remember when all we had was defense, and we were all crying for a horde mode. So why ruin it with this extra RNG bullS#&$?

I want to see how far I can go. I want to see how far a team can go. I don't want that to be utterly spoiled by some extra, un-necessary mechanic that forces you in to a different style of playing. It's freaking horde mode. You're there to kill hordes of enemies on an increasing difficulty scale. That is literally all some people WANT of a survival mode.

DE is far too addicted to their damn RNG for their own good.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Tyroki

[rhoenix]

... Sooo the people who don't want to play defense because they don't want to guard something should just... not play?

 

That is idiotic.

It's also not what I said. The above poster stated that he didn't like the setup of the life support being a factor, so I suggested playing more Defense missions instead. Survival missions on all planets are fairly easy to simply clear out on the system map if you don't want to stay for more than five minutes, after all.

 

Also, he made mention to the fact that sometimes air neither spawns or drops, forcing you out whether you want to leave or not, which IS a problem.

 

We don't want to leave, but are FORCED to leave... because RNG.

Considering that I routinely run the Derelict Survival mission solo, as well as T1, and T2 Void Survival missions for 30 minutes before leaving each time, and then I only leave because it gets a little too ugly to handle solo and not because of the oxygen rate, I have a hard time agreeing with you.

You're right in that the enemy canisters don't always spawn, but that's why you have to be careful with the larger tanks Lotus sends you. I typically don't hit one until I'm at or below 50% - and once I do, I camp out at or near the next one.

Edited January 4, 2014 by rhoenix

[Tyroki]

It's also not what I said. The above poster stated that he didn't like the setup of the life support being a factor, so I suggested playing more Defense missions instead. Survival missions on all planets are fairly easy to simply clear out on the system map if you don't want to stay for more than five minutes, after all.

Considering that I routinely run the Derelict Survival mission solo for 30 minutes before leaving each time, and then I only leave because it gets a little too ugly to handle solo and not because of the oxygen rate, I have a hard time agreeing with you.

You're right in that the enemy canisters don't always spawn, but that's why you have to be careful with the larger tanks Lotus sends you. I typically don't hit one until I'm at or below 50% - and once I do, I camp out at or near the next one.

 

No. Just no.

 

Being lucky with RNG is never a good argument.

 

Please refer to the fact that the complaint is that sometimes the air literally DOES NOT SPAWN. At all. That part is important.

 

So just because you have luck with the 'RNG gods', doesn't mean others will. I certainly don't, and clearly that other guy doesn't either. It's horribly flawed.

 

Which ruins the ENTIRE point.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Tyroki

[Mesadeath]

... It'd be better if you were forced to sit like

 

basically at extraction, bunkered down and fending off this GIGANTIC WALL OF BIG SCARY DUDES THAT WANT IN.

 

edit: with a few breaks to pick up their drops and stuff, but otherwise, literally just make noise. Effectively what's happening now but turning off life support because there's four enemies in the ship is kind of a drastic move.

 

It'd be sorta cooler if that happened about 15 minutes in because the Tenno just kind of murdered half of the crew.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Mesadeath

[rhoenix]

No. Just no.

 

Being lucky with RNG is never a good argument.

 

Please refer to the fact that the complaint is that sometimes the air literally DOES NOT SPAWN. At all. That part is important.

 

So just because you have luck with the 'RNG gods', doesn't mean others will. I certainly don't, and clearly that other guy doesn't either. It's horribly flawed.

 

Which ruins the ENTIRE point.

Yes, I understand your point about air canisters simply not spawning sometimes. I've experienced this too, quite a few times - especially recently when farming for the Burston Prime. I don't see it as relying on luck, but rather planning for your luck to be bad.

This is why I mentioned always waiting until my life support gauge is at or below 50% every time before hitting a canister. By doing so, I've extended my average run-time. My worst solo run was 22 minutes, due to enemies not spawning life support canisters for at least 5 minutes.

The worst run I've had with a team with me was 45 minutes, again due to a several minute life support canister shortage, where we had to use up all the ones remaining, and eventually had to leave. I can't really see this as annoying, as Survival missions are nowhere near as regimented as Defense missions are. This is why you get rewards every 5 minutes of playing Survival, while in Defense, you only get the reward you exited with.

I get that you're annoyed at the uncertainty as to how long you can stay each time, due to RNG, but on the other hand, I'm personally okay with it because it's very nature is high risk, high reward. The uncertainty itself is what makes that type of mission fun, and it's one instance where I don't have much of an issue with RNG.

[Tyroki]

If they have to keep Survival as is, I'd like a new actual mode. Hell, lets stop beating around the damn bush.

 

Name it: Horde.

[Kiteless]

Part of the reason it's like that, I'd imagine, is to stop everyone from picking Loki, sitting in a corner, and spamming invisibility until the heat death of the Universe.

[cacodemon9000]

Part of the reason it's like that, I'd imagine, is to stop everyone from picking Loki, sitting in a corner, and spamming invisibility until the heat death of the Universe.

But why just not make survival like defence but without cryopod? Yeah, looks too simple, but sometimes the most simple solutions are the best.

[Helljack84]

No oxygen, but instead each 5 min LOOK what our operative have found! - and a marker appears on a map indidcating a place where special reward appears (to make you move around a map just a bit)

Interesting. This would also be a much better extra mission than more terminals/hostages whatever.

[VentiGlondi]

Stop using "fun" as an argument, it's too subjective.

[Hadronox]

I actually like the concept and variety of Survival missions. Oxygen "hunt" adds a bit more tension and challenge to the mission as someone already said. Otherwise what is the difference between Survival and Defense missions? If you do not like Survival, you might just as well stick to Defense.

 

I think all they need to do is lessen or remove the RNG fom the Air Points/Pillars and have them spawn more steadily or on an actual timer. Leave the RNG for air drops from mobs for that bit of extra sustain.

[UGotNinjaTrolled]

I always thought air was meant to stop people from idling to get rewards. Without it, people would just sit still for 2 hrs and reap credits and mods like no tomorrow.

 

I got to admit, I hate the system too. I hate to have fun in a game and suddenly see its about to end because of something I/we can't control.

 

No oxygen, but instead each 5 min LOOK what our operative have found! - and a marker appears on a map indidcating a place where special reward appears (to make you move around a map just a bit)

 

This is a good idea. Instead of the stressing air system we have now, with this people will move around without being pressured or worried. However, people will still be able to go into idling for 5 minutes and just reap rewards. Which is where this idea comes in:

 

Your survival rewards are tied to how many kills you get. If you reach a certain interval of kills - say, 400 kills, you get a survival reward that pops up around the map. This will keep players killing and not idling, while, with the idea mentioned above, keep them moving around, even if just a bit.

[MalusCalibur]

The oxygen mechanic is a necessary one, else there is little to stop players from finding an optimum location and remaining there for the entire duration of the mission - at which point you may as well be playing Defence in any case.

With that said, though, I do agree that the oxygen drops are far too scarce and dependent on the loathed RNG, and this is an issue that should be addressed. I'm also an advocate of moving them back to the Defence maps, rather than the linear ones they currently occupy.

[Zephyric_Reaper]

So basically you want an "arena mode" where you are basically gladiators fighting 'till you can. 

Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, but I think you're missing the point of survival. If it wasn't for air it would be too easy. 

[GodSlayerXXX]

Okay.

That's it.

I've had enough of this.

 

Survival is a fun concept. Going as far as you can, with gradually ramping difficulty?

Awesome fun.

 

Survival can be really freaking intense...

 

Until air.

 

There have been FAR too many times now, when I've been with a group. The mission has been getting seriously intense, and really quite difficult... until someone looks at the % bar that we all forget to look at.

 

Is there a massive scramble for air? Yes. Do we like that? Hell no.

It ruins the fight. It kills the buzz.

 

Why?

What's the point?

 

Isn't it bad enough that when the fight is getting too hard, you then have to fight your way to exfil?

 

I can understand the need to keep players from fighting right next to the exfil point, but this? This is stupid, ridiculous, and flat out kills the fun.

 

Fun. Remember that word? This is meant to be a game. I understand that games have a degree of work, but when that work ruins the fun? That's horrid.

 

It's especially horrid when the air is under two layers of RNG. Remember RNG? That thing you were meant to be working on?

 

First layer? Air Points. Somtimes these come in an abundance, spawning in almost immediately after the last one was used. But sometimes? Sometimes, they are few and far between.

 

This is where the second layer comes in. Small Air Packs. A random drop from enemies. More RNG.

 

But this is where it gets especially ridiculous.

 

When the air points are few and far between, and the air packs simply aren't dropping, people are often forced to exfil. There is no choice. It doesn't matter if the enemies are still easy enough to keep going. Boom, RNG just forced you to stop having fun.

 

... Shouldn't we stop fighting based on our skill and not whether RNG dictates we should?

 

This system is weak, and destroys the fun far too easily. As it is, it sometimes feels like a Necros is REQUIRED for survivals, merely to keep the air rolling without worry. Even then, there are plenty of times when... oh. No air. I guess we have to stop.

 

I... just...

 

Eff it. Discuss.

 

Totally agree with you. NO MORE LIFE SUPPORT !

I agree with everything you said. There is no point and it ruins the buzz. I often find myself intense battles and eventually i notice that the bar is at like 29% so i start to run to the LS system and I die from a Napalm rocket. It ruins my concentration.

 

It is the number one compliant I have. And Survival is my favorite mode too. LF feature ruins it a bit.

 

Just make it an all out battle with no Life Support. That would be really fun.

 

As for the not moving around. Who stay in one place? I love running around the map. There would be no fun in staying in one place and farming. Maybe a sniper might do that ones in a while but most people like moving around so that a crappy argument. 

 

Down with LS !

Edited January 4, 2014 by GodSlayerXXX