Survival - Air (Why!?)

[magusat999]

I have to agree with the OP as well, and add my own observances to this. In the event there was no issue with air - Survival mode is not playing like the event. In the event that started this mode, the oxygen was plentiful as long as you kept fighting, and sometimes there would be so much you didn't even have to think about how much air you had. In this Survival mode, you can kill 50 enemies per second and still run out of air. Its a cheap mechanic in the game that is basically punishing you for being more proficient rather than rewarding you.

 

I have been playing a lot in ODS, for example, as Vauban with a Penta and Stug. Either one of those demolishes groups in massive numbers - yet I can say that 8 out of ten times my game ends early because of the lack of air.I have noticed a great dip in air releasing from mobs when the levels get higher and also when the air level goes down. I could stay there longer - but because of this AI I have to leave not when my skill dictates, but when the game becomes unplayable due to mal-formed conditions inherent in the design. 

[Tyroki]

If you want to keep this terrible air mode, the air NEEDS to be more plentiful.

Heres the thing. Air does make it so you can't sit around and hide in one spot. Yes it is a potentially good mechanic.

 

HOWEVER! The problem is that air CAN come in so rarely, utterly screwing up your run.

Air should be dropping like CANDY. You want to keep going? You keep killing.
Proper horde mode.

 

As for how it is currently, it does NOT keep the entire group moving.

As is, it's a lot easier to pick a defensible double sided choke point and have someone (in a Loki, or if a Trinity is around, anyone quick) run off to get air pylons. Even then, with all the enemies clustering, there is a heavy chance of no air.

And to those who said "Just pop it at X time"
Who doesn't pop them around the 40-50% mark if they can?

Sometimes, however, Lotus doesn't drop air pylons at all. Sometimes you see them only once every 5+ minutes. When enemies aren't dropping air, that is it. Your run is over. Necros isn't a fix either, as sometimes they can't even pull air with desecrate.

 

As for sitting in one spot, that isn't a problem. It could have easily been a defense mission without the cryopod. 1-3 rooms you need to stay in, else the timer freezes until you return to them.

[Robotgedek]

Survival without air? Hmmm... how about 1 frost, 1 vauban, 1 nova, 1 random nuke frame, 4 energy siphon and there you go. New meta. go till 100 hours,

No.

[Cray]

Here's an idea: Rather than have random 'airbag' drops, why not simply have the meter replentish at 1% per kill?

[Tyroki]

Here's an idea: Rather than have random 'airbag' drops, why not simply have the meter replentish at 1% per kill?

 

Not to mention that wouldn't dilute the loot table.

That also means you can move around the map as much as you like.

So a good idea.

 

I mean, if I wanted to play Mobile Defense (uuuugh), I'd play freaking mobile defense.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Tyroki

[DHKany]

Because Survival would just be like defense, except without a core to protect and getting to keep all of your rewards. 

[Cray]

Increase the depletion rate then. If you can't kill fast enough, you can't survive.

 

After all, the killing is what this mode should be about anyway. Of all the mission types, this one is the only one that comes close to "let's just run around and shoot anything that moves until we get too drunk to shoot straight."

Edited January 4, 2014 by DeltaPhantom

[Tyroki]

Survival without air? Hmmm... how about 1 frost, 1 vauban, 1 nova, 1 random nuke frame, 4 energy siphon and there you go. New meta. go till 100 hours,

No.

Damage frames fall off very quickly, and don't scale in to the late times.

 

Sitting around, defending the one spot isn't actually bad. If that's how people want to play, that's how they want to play. But you shouldn't be punished for wanting to play that way, nor should you be punished for wanting to do it by running around killing things. So long as the fight is continuous.

 

As is, Frost is a genuinely good, defensive frame.

 

Lets not forget you can also take an invul Trinity and defend the one area.

 

You can also take the Nyx, and keep enemies Chaos'd.

 

Oh, what about the Mag? Things are bullet sponges in the later times anyway, so now everything is attacking that one thing, drawing fire from the rest of your team.

 

Hmm. Suddenly Frost isn't the only defensive frame, and neither is Vauban. In fact, the Vauban starts falling off in the later times anyway. Especially against, say, Grineer due and bombards. Unless you find some corner, or somewhere that makes it tough for the enemy to have range.

 

There are many ways to get to those later times, via numerous possible strategies.

 

I'm not saying air in and of itself is a horrible idea. However, this has been done better, and within Warframe too.

 

Nightmare's kill timer. Every enemy killed increases the timer by +x.

That is the same as air, but doesn't required relying solely on RNG to keep it going.

Instead, you survive based on these things:

Your team composition

Your equipment

Your actual skill.

THAT is how Survival should be.

 

If a certain tile spawns, and a group happens to like that particular tile, why should they be punished for defending it?

If a group likes to run around to do their killing, power to them!

 

RNG ruins this mode, and by the sounds of it, for a decent amount of people.

 

Lets also not forget that air drops dilute the loot tables of enemies.

 

 

DHKany: Horde mode IS defense. Defending yourself.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Tyroki

[taiiat]

i actually approve of the Difficulty the Oxygen adds to Survival. 

 

which Warframe has little of. 

if not for the Oxygen, Survival would be a Cruise Control gamemode.

 

besides, having one person dedicated to grabbing far off Support Pods goes a long way to increasing your time in Survival.

 

No oxygen, but instead each 5 min LOOK what our operative have found! - and a marker appears on a map indicating a place where special reward appears (to make you move around a map just a bit)

that sounds great, but i'd have that on top of the Oxygen system. adding more for the player to do is never a bad thing.

 

and if Enemy Spawns get worked on so they can actually work without pitching a tent in the only tile on the map that is actually viable for Enemy Spawns(sometimes there isn't any at all, let alone just one tile that will work for Enemy Spawns)? then it would be a great addition. no need for players to pitch a tent, but instead actually using that mobility which is our greatest weapon.

 

edit:

I'm not saying air in and of itself is a horrible idea. However, this has been done better, and within Warframe too.

 

Nightmare's kill timer. Every enemy killed increases the timer by +x.

That is the same as air, but doesn't required relying solely on RNG to keep it going.

ah, i see the point now. 

well, having enemies drop Oxygen requires you to pick it up, which means you need to go close to more enemies. even using Vacuum, you still need to get somewhat close. 

otherwise, you could simply take a nap in some dead end corner of the map.

 

players might want to sit in one place and take a nap, but we have a gamemode for that, and it's not called Survival. 

Survival should stand out more from Defense, not become closer to the same as. they are different gamemodes, and thusly should be different.

Edited January 4, 2014 by taiiat

[Tyroki]

 

edit:

ah, i see the point now. 

well, having enemies drop Oxygen requires you to pick it up, which means you need to go close to more enemies. even using Vacuum, you still need to get somewhat close. 

otherwise, you could simply take a nap in some dead end corner of the map.

 

players might want to sit in one place and take a nap, but we have a gamemode for that, and it's not called Survival. 

Survival should stand out more from Defense, not become closer to the same as. they are different gamemodes, and thusly should be different.

 

 

Yes but again, you're ignoring the most important problem.

 

RNG can kick you out prematurely, and for some, does quite often.

[taiiat]

RNG can kick you out prematurely, and for some, does quite often.

but Nekros wouldn't have a reason to exist without Oxygen Drops :(

 

(which shouldn't be a problem in the first place -_- powers shouldn't try to one up the game, that only hurts the frame and the game).

[lautalocos]

i like survival, but i think what you really want is some kind of endless exterminate.

[EelPlus]

Wholeheartedly disagree.  What you're asking for is Defense mode.

[Kiteless]

It's also worth noting that the oxygen requirement ultimately leads up to a cut off point for survival, which really is needed when you consider all the rewards you can get. If they made it so that you didn't have to run after oxygen to extend the timer, It's likely that the rewards would end up cut off considerably.

[Tyroki]

Here we go. A good example.

 

Full group, T1 survival, trying to go as far as possible.

Piece of cake... except for the extreme lack of air.

 

Enemies dying constantly, decent enough air, and then suddenly it all dried up.

Lotus was dropping air pods every few minutes.

 

We had to exfil at 20. 20 minutes.

 

Please understand that. We were FORCED to leave, at 20 minutes.

 

Worse. Because what little air Lotus had been dropping was far away from extraction, we ran out of air half way out, and died from random fire.

 

That is utter bullS#&$. The system should NOT be working this way.

 

Edit: We want to go as long as we can survive the enemy, not as long as Lotus isn't being a useless sow.

 

Eelplus: No. Defense doesn't facilitate what we want in the slightest. Defense is "Defend the object"

What we want is to be able to run around, and the only thing we need to defend, is ourselves and each other. 

 

What we're asking for is mobile defense, without the objects.

 

That's what was expected back before survival was ever introduced, and as has been said, the original event dropped much, much more air than this. The only limit was how long you could actually survive.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Tyroki

[rhoenix]

I get that you're annoyed Tyroki, but I'm honestly having a hard time understanding this. I just ran three Survival missions in a row, on T2 Survival I might add, while soloing (which is notable for having fewer enemies show up), and I hit 30 minutes each time. What is the technique you and the players you're with follow during survival?

Do you wait until 50% before hitting the larger canisters? Do you camp out near the next one? Do you use Decoy/Moult to help channel enemies? Do you stay together in the same general area?

Please, let us know how you normally play a Survival mission. Look on the bright side - if this is solvable through just changing a little of your playstyle, then it's an easy solution, right?

If it helps, I normally run a Survival mission solo with a Loki, sometimes Rhino when leveling weapons. I herd enemies where I want them with a Decoy, and when air gets too low, I hit the canister I'm near to, and move to the next one.

Edited January 5, 2014 by rhoenix

[Hyunsai]

I also don't understand this. I never went short or oxygen in Survival, and when it happened (AKA when I was a newbie), it was because of bad pod management.

 

I like the current system, it adds an interesting layer to the basic and static survival mode. Without it I would be very bored, same as staying too long in endless defense.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Hyunsai

[Atlas_Smirked]

The enemy spawn rate also needs to be constant. There are annoying lulls where no enemies spawn and all you can do is watch the 02 tick down.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Atlas_Smirked

[birdei]

What I want is the o2 canisters to spawn instantly. There are many times where the air is below 5% and one is taking its sweet &#! time to finish spawning. I believe it takes 12%ish in terms of oxygen from start to finish for it to spawn.

[shut]

Its well-designed mode.

It isn't. It's a nice concept, but it could have been executed far, far better.

The devs could start by stabilizing enemy spawn rates and oxygen drop rates. I've failed several survival missions due to RNG. This should never happen.

[rhoenix]

One thing I've found that helps is to make sure at least two ways for enemies to reach you (and see you), and preferably more than in single-file. If the enemies stop flowing, send a fast frame through one of the doorways to troll for their attention, and then run back to the group.

It's harder to do this in Solo, but it's a technique I use often with Loki. Toss out a Decoy near the door, Switch with it, run through the door, shoot an enemy in the face, Switch back again, recast the Decoy at the other Doorway, and wait. Using this method, there's very rarely more than a few seconds that I don't see a good number of enemies, which helps the RNG chances for O2.

[Tyroki]

One thing I've found that helps is to make sure at least two ways for enemies to reach you (and see you), and preferably more than in single-file. If the enemies stop flowing, send a fast frame through one of the doorways to troll for their attention, and then run back to the group.

It's harder to do this in Solo, but it's a technique I use often with Loki. Toss out a Decoy near the door, Switch with it, run through the door, shoot an enemy in the face, Switch back again, recast the Decoy at the other Doorway, and wait. Using this method, there's very rarely more than a few seconds that I don't see a good number of enemies, which helps the RNG chances for O2.

(Okay, yesterday was just downright frustrating, and I have to admit, I was especially angry when making my posts due to multiple attempts where Survival dropped nothing)

 

Okay, for your other comment, which you have made multiple times, ignoring everything else said, you continue to make mention of popping air at 50%.

That is a fairly common number to pop air at, be it in our own group (and thus experience), and in public groups. The number we (and clearly you) pop at isn't the problem.

 

You're defending the system based on your own luck.

Often times survival turns away from skill, and lives entirely on luck.

 

Lets take Tower Survival for example. Tower Survival has a particularly large tile, with many entrances that go around a courtyard that has multiple bridges across it. The enemy come in droves there.

 

Even holding that tile, slaughtering constant (and I literally mean constant) groups of enemies, often times, only 1-2 air packs drop. Now, the entire point of the air packs is to keep you topped up while Lotus pulls her finger out of her backside to drop you another pod. In a fair number of peoples experiences (here, and off forum, including in-game discussions), that can take a matter of minutes to happen.

 

When it does finally happen, it isn't instant.

 

So, the entire mode lives on the expectation that enemies will drop air packs.

 

The problem is, in a fair number of peoples experiences (mine, my clan mates, some here on the forums, others in public survival runs and in-game chat), air packs do not drop.

 

It is bad game design to expect you to always have a certain frame on hand.

 

The Necros is a fantastic survival team frame, due to it's ability to give you another shot at air.

However, even with the Necros, who can often keep a team running at 100%, suddenly finds massive dry spots where desecrate isn't pulling air.

This of course isn't helped by the way desecrate works, which is a discussion for already existing topics.

 

Now, so you know the things I've been using across my attempts)

Trinity (Invul build, forma un-necessary. Rarely used, but has been used.)

Loki (Invis build, forma'd 4 times. Used most often)

Mag Prime (If against Corpus, unforma'd)

 

My weapons of choice:

Penta (Forma'd 4 times)

Cestra (Unforma'd, but is there for when downed)

Dakra Prime (unforma'd for now)

 

My allies from clan often bring things from Necros, to Loki's, Nyx, etc.

 

Survival itself, depending on what we bring, isn't an issue.

Neither is killing hordes of enemies.

 

The problem is when you get to 15-20 minutes in, things are still extremely easy, and... oh gods, no air pods, no air packs, nothing.

 

You tick down to 10% with only the occasional air pack dropping, keeping you barely sustained around the 10% mark.

 

Lotus finally drops an air pod. It's several tiles away, and the air packs are dry.

 

You lose.

 

You lose because the RNG wasn't in your favor.

 

The execution for survival mode is terrible.

 

Now, as for using your luck as an argument, please remember how we all tend to treat the special snowflakes who say they got X rare end of mission reward, or x rare drop in their first few tries, and try to argue that it's easy, while others make 100+ attempts to get those pieces and fail. (Drops and rarer mission rewards are hit and miss for me personally. It's all RNG, something DE uses as a massive crutch)

 

Air packs need to drop more often. Air pods need to drop more often, even if more spread out (speaking of which, sometimes Lotus favors a single room for her air pods, sometimes she favors 2 rooms on the opposite sides of the map to each other)

 

Enemy spawns need to be looked in to. In some maps, they get all tied up, in others they don't.

 

What I'm trying to get through here, isn't so much that air is a terribad idea (which it feels like due to the execution), but rather that the numbers are off. If you're fighting hard and manage to get through massive scores of enemies, and trying to pop pods around the right time, you shouldn't lose because the system decided "No air for you. Shoo."

[Tsukinoki]

@Tyroki
And the problem with removing the air is then this:
What stops someone from finding a vent out of the way, jumping into it, and then afking (maybeing weighting down the W against a corner to avoid afk timers) for say 5 hours and getting 60 rewards out of it?
Thats why air is NEEDED and cant just be removed.  Otherwise it becomes an AFK mode where you can get good rewards by just sitting there for hours and hours.
I do think air needs to drop a bit more often and or the percent needs to drop slower but DE should NOT remove it at all.

[ensignvidiot]

much like defense used to be impossible without a frost/vauban in the cell

 

extended survival is also impossible without a Stretch Necros ready to dump all of his energy into desecrate.

 

i wish air pods dropped at a steady interval, instead of randomly... that way people can consistently play to 15 minutes with 0 air pack drops. (This is, assuming, everyone pods air at 60%)

 

Then you would only have 1 RNG barrier for people that want to go for 30-60 minute runs.

[Tyroki]

@Tyroki

And the problem with removing the air is then this:

What stops someone from finding a vent out of the way, jumping into it, and then afking (maybeing weighting down the W against a corner to avoid afk timers) for say 5 hours and getting 60 rewards out of it?

Thats why air is NEEDED and cant just be removed.  Otherwise it becomes an AFK mode where you can get good rewards by just sitting there for hours and hours.

I do think air needs to drop a bit more often and or the percent needs to drop slower but DE should NOT remove it at all.

 

 

Are you freaking kidding me?

 

Yes, at first I was questioning why Air was a thing. During the course of the discussion, it became obvious that air or something like air was needed to avoid the stupidity that is AFK.

 

HOWEVER!

 

Keeping up with the discussion, you will note we've moved from removing air, to making it more active and less RNG reliant, or if it HAS to be RNG reliant, making it drop more.

 

 

Ensignvidiot has it. And even with that Necros, the air doesn't always drop. This is bad.

If you're slaughting wave after wave, and getting next to no air even WITH a Necros, that is horrible.

It rewards neither your skill, your build, or your team composition.

 

It only rewards your luck.