Update 7 - Mods 2.0 - Proper Feedback

[NazFTW]

After reading so much rage and hate towards this new Update 7, I felt like the devs needed some proper feedback discussed in a civilized manner with suggestions. They've been working really hard on this and I can't imagine how bad it must feel to see this kind of reaction on the forums. I will keep updating this post throughout today and the next few days as I find new stuff to talk about.

1. One of the most important issues right now with the 2.0 mod system is that it's confusing a lot of people. I must say, the way you rank up the new mods is not brilliant, tweaks are needed. This is the first thing I came up with and I think it would work rather well.

First step: Split the bar on the left of the mods into smaller cells, like an exp bar in RPGs.

Like that.

Second step: Make the lowest rarity/rank fusion core give 1 "bubble" of exp. That would be common rank 1.

Third step (optional): Make it clear on each Fusion Core how many bubbles of exp it gives.

What does this fix? Well you can clearly see how many mods you would need to rank up.

Imagine Rank 0 -> Rank 1 had 10 bubbles. Ok, so to get from Rank 0 to Rank 1 I need:

A) 10x Common Rank 1 fusion cores

OR

B) 1x Common Rank 10 fusion core

Clear and simple, no? Rank 1->Rank 2 will have more bubbles that you need to fill and so on.

Keep in mind that there are Uncommon and Rare ones too, this is where it gets tricky. Honestly, we do not need such a huge variety, if you think about it there are 30 different Fusion Cores you can get from drops. There's too many possibilties to rank up your mods because of that, all ending up with weird issues such as different costs or going over the limit etc.

Right now, if you want to exp a new mod with another new mod there's only 3 things you need to worry about and it's quite clear how many it takes to rank up:

Rank 0 -> Rank 1

Duplicate mod = 1 needed

Same polarity mod = 2 needed

Any mod = 4 needed

Simple

That is not the case with Fusion Cores, that is why I am suggestion the above fix, maybe even reduce the variety of Fusion Cores.

2. As of right now, I see no information on the Power mods 2.0 that tells me what exactly do I get by ranking up. If you were not around pre-Update 7 you have no idea what is different about Rank 2 Decoy compared to Rank 1 Decoy (as an example). That needs to be added asap imo.

3. You know what was great about mods 1.0 combined with the old tree? Even if you were unlucky with the drops, you still had some power added to you with levels from the passive skills. Right now, not only a mod that drops is WAY weaker than before and you have to spend a lot of time to get it on par with the old mods (plus the same drop rate), you also do not get ANYTHING while leveling up. Some suggestions:

A) Highly increase the drop rate of mods 2.0 especially for basic stuff like +shield or +reload

OR

B) Assuming certain missions or monsters drop certain mods, sharing that info would be greatly appreciated. There's tons of missions, can't expect me to do most of them until I figure out which one drops +shields.

OR

C) Give us back passive stat boosts. Without them you heavily rely on drops. You can't expect people to run around with 100 shields if they're unlucky.

OR

D) Sell basic mods (common rank 0) in the market for small amount of credits. Not every type of mod, just some basic stuff like +shields/hp, +reload of weapons etc.

When I first read the mod 2.0 system I assumed the old passive nodes will be included (part of them at least) in the warframe/weapons stats by default or at least have them easily accessible. This doesn't work too well imo.

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After experimenting a bit more with the new mods it is clear to me that using duplicates become RAPIDLY inefficient and that will make them irrelevant, which is sad. With the prices of Fusion Cores being so high to use as fusing material, this makes ranking up a rank 10 mod quite frustrating to say the least. (1.3mil credits to rank 10 a COMMON mod. More for Uncommon/Rare)

I propose we have a steep cost in terms of fusion cores/credits at levels past 7 or so. Make it so that fusing up to that level is fairly accessible while anything past rank 7 is what you'd consider a longterm goal.

rank 0 -> rank 5 is about 100k~, make that the new price for rank 0 -> rank 7

rank 7 -> rank 8 150k

rank 8 -> rank 9 300k

rank 9 -> rank 10 550k

This is assuming we will gain credits about as fast as before (maybe about 30% less).

I think that is fairly reasonable and a better way than it is right now, while keeping the credit cost for a maxed rank 10 mod fairly the same, 1.1mil (it's 1.3mil or so right now). Make those last % be costly because it's what separates the casuals from the hardcores while keeping the casuals still happy and at a decent level of power.

And about the card duplicates, I think having a way to turn them into Fusion Cores would be a great idea. The way DE intended this system to work right now is to have Duplicates and Cards in general be used for early levels (it gives quite a bit of exp and costs really cheap to fuse), while Fusion Cores being the "endgame" way of exping your mods. They cost a lot to fuse and are rarer than cards to drop. However, the cards lose ground to cores way too fast as of right now and either improving them or having a way to turn them into cores will help a lot. Not to mention the amount of Fusion Cores required is still quite big.

Edited March 20, 2013 by NazFTW

[Irinir]

You have the right idea my friend.

I think most people are whining just because, the system seems simple enough to me.

However, your idea for number 1 point simplifies and makes this more acessible, I agree.

You are also very correct on the fact that clear info on what is gained per rank increased would be great.

I'd like to add 2 suggestions:

1 - A list of all the types of mods and what they do would be a great help to the community.

2 - Somewhere in the arsenal UI, a resume of installed mods the chosen warframe has installed, and the same for the weapons. Something like a character sheet.

I'll add more as I think about them. Great initiative m8.

[Dreamwalk3r]

I completely agree with 2. And clarification of fusion process would be fine too (also, why do we even need fusion cores of different rarity?)

[FirstToLast]

No, the leveling is neither confusing nor difficult. Feed mods other mods and it gets big and strong. Rarity/similarity affects growth rate and is similar to currency: rare = 1p, uncommon = 0.5p, common = 0.25p.

Problem Uno) Linear gain, exponential cost.

the upgrade benefit from 0 to 1 is 100% - you don't lose anything, just like using two mods in one slot;

from 1 to 2 is 50% - for the cost of losing 2 base mods, you gain the benefit of one mod,

from 2 to 3 is 25% - for the cost of losing 4 base mods, you gain the benefit of one mod,

from 6 to 7... 2^6 = 64 ... is 1/64th - for the cost of losing 64 base mods, you gain the benefit of one mod. You would have used 128 DUPLICATE mods at this point.

Problem Dos) Levels lost meaning, only restrict the mods the EQ can use.

Problem Tres) Mods aren't balanced, Max reload speed you can get is 30%, good luck with that snipers.

[FanZeroEx]

1. Great suggestion. The system should be clear and accesible. Righ now it's not.

2. To take it even further it's quite shocking this game still doesn't have proper character stat page where you could see/compare mod, weapon setups.

[NazFTW]

Updated first post with #3

[Miyori_Nadako]

is there an issue with the chat? because i can't seem to see any chat or anything

[NazFTW]

bump for DE_Steve or any other Digital Extremes staff reading the forums right now, this needs some attention.

[[DE]Steve]

Will read this when I get PAX issues sorted!

Will add that it works as you describe, like power law: Fusing first level costs 1 duplicate or 2 same polarity or 4 unrelated. The fly in the ointment is mismatched rarity.

[SoulEchelon]

After reading so much rage and hate towards this new Update 7, I felt like the devs needed some proper feedback discussed in a civilized manner with suggestions. They've been working really hard on this and I can't imagine how bad it must feel to see this kind of reaction on the forums. I will keep updating this post throughout today and the next few days as I find new stuff to talk about.

Good to see people actually being productive over here! Seriously, kudos to you. Just thought I'd come in and say that.

[Crominix772]

Will read this when I get PAX issues sorted!

Please consider some of these suggestions as they are simple, yet effective.

However, DE_Steve, I started playing this game because I like shooting sh!t with my friends, not so I could go on "treasure hunts" for mods. Don't lose sight of the games direction by getting caught up with making everything an easter egg hunt. Because, that's how I'm feeling; farm for rhubedo, farm for alloy plates, farm for bp's, farm, farm, farm. Now, I get to farm even more to find mods to allow me to be able to play the game. Before U7, I just liked playing the game and having mods drop was an added bonus. The great concept is what brought me here, but it WAS the gameplay (ie shooting sh!t) that kept me staying, playing, and paying.

So, how does all this relate to the original post by NazFTW? It streamlines the mod system and makes it more effective while allowing players to focus on the core of the game, which is shooting, fighting, warfare; not treasure hunting.

Thanks for listening DE_Steve.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Crominix772

[Brasten]

The fly in the ointment is mismatched rarity.

Because if I've mathedz right your rarity mismatch works out something like having a x3 multiplier when it should be x4. This is most noticable in the differance between an Unrelated Rare (x3) and a Matching Polarity Rare (x4).

Start with Commons being worth base 1 and use a multiplier NazFTW.

Common: x1

Uncommon x2

Rare: x4 (should be)

Duplicate: x1

Matching: x0.5

Unrelated: x0.25

You can see the problem with an Unrelated Rare 0 Rank mod, applied to another Rank 0 mod. The bar only goes up 3/4 of the way when it should go all the way. Do it for a Matching Rare 0 Rank and you'll get Rank 1 and fill the bar halfway (as it should).

What throws this even more is that the price calculation doesn't match either. It should be the same as the rarity. For Common and Uncommon its okay but for Rares its x4 for everything. That includes the buggy Unrelated fusions that only seem to get x3 the rating but x4 the cost.

I've also found a bug that causes the rating values to go wacky depending on how you select and unselect things. Sent a video off to DE by the Support system.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Brasten

[shavedllama]

Backing this completely. Also I wanna add: that balance between mods is very much needed. (I.e. reload speed)

But now I would say is also the time to get creative and start coming up with new mods, cuz right now its all same old, and very basic. Furthermore, there's no longer any combo mods or variation between them, so I guess quantity of mod choice is the only way to go.

Things like mods that actually change the behaviour of things, like a chance to launch a plasma bolt or area damage on shield depletion, etc. That will make things unpredictable and interesting vs the atrocious simplification we are missing.

I gotta say, I'm very much against the loss of skill trees. Now your frame/weapons don't get better, nor do your "skills" with them. This hits hard and is a form of oversimplification. Before the update I was hoping for an expansion and alteration of the skill trees, but now were forced to simply rely on mods.

[Caine]

I'd generally like to see more exciting mods. While I like the new card based system when it comes down to the meat of it these are still the same mods. Attack speed is still attack speed and such. I would prefer a larger variety of mods to promote different playstyles.

[Kyuta]

I've got to say I currently dislike this update because as it is now leveling feels pointless. Don't get me wrong I love the new mod system, but the fact that the tree was removed and at level 30 I have the same combat ability as I did when I was Unranked really ticks me off. Makes me feel like all the time I spent playing up to this point and all the money I spent on this game was pointless and wasted.

What I would like to see is the passive tree brought back minus the mod and skill slots (since they're now part of Mod 2.0) and add MORE nodes -- both current and new passive abilities like say armor penitration for sharp weapons and stun (whatever it does since it didn't seem to do anything when I was playing around with it...) for blunt weapons -- to it so not every weapon is completely maxed out giving it a more customized kind of feel to it.

[Caine]

I would actually like to see a very basic leveling system in the weapons and warframes. Everytime you level up your warframe you get an option

Power/Health/Shields.

Then you get to pick and it would be a small (but noticable) increase to whatever you picked.

Weapons would probably go like

Damage/Rate/Clip (Or whatever but you get the idea)

Of course you could respec (with a credit charge). I feel something like this would make leveling worth it and seperate unranked from level 30 weapons, because right now if you don't get the right mods, you're stuck in mercury.

[SoulEchelon]

I would actually like to see a very basic leveling system in the weapons and warframes. Everytime you level up your warframe you get an option

Power/Health/Shields.

Then you get to pick and it would be a small (but noticable) increase to whatever you picked.

Weapons would probably go like

Damage/Rate/Clip (Or whatever but you get the idea)

Of course you could respec (with a credit charge). I feel something like this would make leveling worth it and seperate unranked from level 30 weapons, because right now if you don't get the right mods, you're stuck in mercury.

I agree with this. Consistent, but not overpowering stat progression while also giving choice - thus each player has even more control and customizeability on their weapons and frames.

[ACRONYNJA]

The system is a little obtuse right now, but in a way, it plays into the "replayability" in the sense that we need to figure this out together and encourages experimentation and interaction with other players, all the more reason to have the global chat window!

In truth, the card system is a pretty cool idea, you get unique prize cards that expand the gameplay system, but aesthetically I feel that it is slightly out of place and not quite in line with the whole Space Ninja vibe (sexy, techy, Guyver, cyber ninja combat; what drew me into the game in the first place). All we need now is a card trading system and for the Warframes to be animated to throw the cards at the enemies to activate their abilities to make the coversion complete ;-]

Joke aside, the system definitely has potential and I'm willing to give it a bit more time to sink in, but from what I gather at the moment fusing seems to be rather shallow; being that you can only fuse to level up the card and not alter the properties of the cards being fused together. Having the ability to fuse different cards to alter/enhance or create a completely new card will flesh out the idea even further. But even then, I'm not really sure about this whole card thing, even if it's but a metaphor for the mod system...

[Avenwing]

I would actually like to see a very basic leveling system in the weapons and warframes. Everytime you level up your warframe you get an option

Power/Health/Shields.

Then you get to pick and it would be a small (but noticable) increase to whatever you picked.

Weapons would probably go like

Damage/Rate/Clip (Or whatever but you get the idea)

Of course you could respec (with a credit charge). I feel something like this would make leveling worth it and seperate unranked from level 30 weapons, because right now if you don't get the right mods, you're stuck in mercury.

+1 this, I love the mod system we have now (except maybe having the powers as mods) but I dislike how the only difference between a rank 30 and a rank 0 is the amount of mod energy.

[Lunitari]

+1, I agree, there should be something like a stat increase per a rank so that it would at least make our time spent prior to patch 7 meant something.

[Ceebees]

So, feedback in the form of a question... what on earth am i supposed to do with all these fusion mods?

I appreciate the effort gone through to give us some carryover. But fusion mods seem to be designed as 'bonus' items, an expensive but efficient way to upgrade your power cards; if i completely bankrupted myself i could use maybe 30-40% of the fusion things my mods were turned into.

[Kyuta]

So, feedback in the form of a question... what on earth am i supposed to do with all these fusion mods?

I appreciate the effort gone through to give us some carryover. But fusion mods seem to be designed as 'bonus' items, an expensive but efficient way to upgrade your power cards; if i completely bankrupted myself i could use maybe 30-40% of the fusion things my mods were turned into.

You fuse them with actual mods you find (or buy) to make the mods stronger.

I'd also like to say I think mods SHOULD stack since they hardly drop, there's a limit to how many powerful mods you can have, in addition to the fact there's only 8 mod slots. Again to add to the customizability since, as it is now, it feels like everyone's going to go for the same 8 mods and thus be like everyone else in terms of their build.

[Indrome]

You fuse them with actual mods you find (or buy) to make the mods stronger.

[ ... ]

Yes, but the cost is definitely too high. Taking a rifle damage mod from 10% to 30% should not cost 8.8k credits. Considering the former creditsink functionality (exchanging mods in the trees) the new one went a bit far. At least imho and because I am not one of those pre-U7 credit farming millionaires. :D

[Kyuta]

Yes, but the cost is definitely too high. Taking a rifle damage mod from 10% to 30% should not cost 8.8k credits. Considering the former creditsink functionality (exchanging mods in the trees) the new one went a bit far. At least imho and because I am not one of those pre-U7 credit farming millionaires. :D

I hadn't really played with the new Mod system prior to my post so I didn't know what the cost is. Is it just the Fusion Cores that cost an arm and a leg to use? Is using actual mods cheaper?

[NazFTW]

Maxing a common mod to rank 10 takes about 1.3mil credits, which is.. pricey considering a rare or uncommon mod takes even more fusion cores/mods.